Expats
Oct 3rd, 2006, in Society, by PatungOn the “quality”, or possible lack thereof, of expatriates in Indonesia.
Visitor Parvita, on the dating Indonesian girls article, makes these, somewhat stinging, remarks about expatriates in Indonesia.
I’ve gone out both with Indonesian and expat men (western and eastern) and my lesson to learn is: expats are just for fun and not to be taken seriously.
Most of them that comes over here, especially the westerners, are those who cannot “compete” in their country. And when they come over here, they make better living because our country pays expats waaaaaay better than nationals. Then they became like kings, thinking that they are superiors, and some girls fall for them. For instance, would you think a very successful and smart lawyer, or businessmen in England would move to a country like Indonesia? And the houses they live in in Kemang, when they go back to their countries, say, Italy, they will just live in a one bedroom apartment (or a studio) with no driver and a really small car, commuting to the city? The place I live and the car I drive currently is much much better than what they have.
I deal with lots of western expats, some of them are my friends. They told me that when they are here, they are handsome. In their countries, they are invisible. There you go, a confession from an Australian.
Some expats are even so obnoxious, having to live in the states for long, I know they are the loser kind but when they are here, they are surrounded by women and think that they are God’s gift to women.
When a smart, rich, independent Indonesian women dates an expat here, that expat must be a really damn good one! [bold added]
Certainly some home truths there, but the “Most of them…” part may not stand up to analysis.
520 Comments on “Expats”
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Folks,
we’ve really flogged this one to death…
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Fred Floggle says:
Interestingly, one of Japans biggest foreign language schools has just gone bankrupt. Nova had 900 schools and 400,00 students across Japan, and 4000 English teachers, 1000 of whom were British, the remainder mainly Australians.
Nova had teetered on bankruptcy for years and it shouldn’t come as a shock, however the British government has had to step in to get the teachers home.
One of the teachers, commenting on his leaving when he didn’t get a pay rise, wrote:
Once I’d decided to quit, I took advantage of a few PERKS that unofficially come with the job: I banged three gaidai students, one office worker, one real estate agent and one housewife whose son was a NOVA Kids student. Some where in Love Hotels across the street; some where at their homes; some where in my apartment. I actually managed, at one point, to balance three students at once. Yes, I was quite impressed, and think of how happy my nutsacks were
http://www.gaijinpot.com/bb/showthread.php?t=24996
Notice his use of the word PERKS – the capitalization was his, not mine. Bragging about seducing students doesn’t really impress me.
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If you don’t like the thread Pup Achmood, you can always ignore it.
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Sounds like we both agree on things and soon will be attacked by others???
Have a nice weekend friends”¦peace to you all, hope some will think about win win solution, be a real teacher or I would say educator to Indonesian people whether they are local or expat, especially for locals, expat not superior to us, they are God creation, just the same with us, some of them are smart but us, Indonesian have lot of smart people as well.
Treat people the same without seeing the race, position, belonging or any material things
Take some critics from others to improve ourself and thanks them for being concern to our matters.Dee, let them attack. Its their casual sex life they are defending. Given half a chance your panties would be hanging on their bedpost as well.
As for criticism, all of this started when a bunch of expats took umbrage at a local girl who DARE comment upon their quality. Well I’m not a local girl and I don’t take #### from a bunch of former shelf stackers waving ESOL certificates.
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Janma says:
Fred had the ignorance to say;
Notice Dee, its Saturday night and I am posting on the internet, whilst the English teachers on this site are strangely absent. Do you wonder what they are doing right now, and to whom?
Fred, number one, the anomity of theinternet would prevent you knowing how many of us here are or aren’t English teachers or even if we are in Indonesia… number two I can see you spend a lot of time wondering what they are doing….. does it turn you on to do that?
shheesh… I am in Australia right now and I can tell you there are plenty of indonesians here who don’t gel with the locals, hate them in fact! just here to take advantage of what they can, be it education system, better paying jobs, ripping off the social security system or even laundering their money. So I say it goes both ways, and why indonesians need some bored ex-pat of questionable qualifications defending them is beyond me… but it’s been fun anyway!Janma…
*who is leaving Australia for Bali tonight and can’t wait to be warm again* -
Jama,
Are you an English teacher? Yes/no
What relevance has Indonesians in Australia have to do with a debate about the quality of expats in Jakarta?
My questionable qualifications? We no one has questioned them, and since I don’t work as an English Teacher I don’t think its relevant.
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No I’m not an english teacher, the relevance is that you act like expats in indonesia just come to take advantage of the locals and the country and that indonesians deserve something better or they need you to defend them or that it’s some kind of vestige of colonialism that needs to be rooted out by fred floggle, i mean you do sound a bit like your defending the poor locals from the scrouge of the white men…. all i’m saying is that all that goes both ways….
and as to your qualifications…. maybe no one has questioned them, but to write what you write you sound as though you think you are the only expat in indonesia worthy of being there….. you feel you are qualified to pass judgement on all expats (or even 50
% of expats in indonesia, you may feel you’re qualified, but I’d say that’s questionable. -
Rambutan says:
Fred said:
For your information, I would estimate based upon my own observations and anecdotal evidence that something like 50% of the expats in Jakarta now are English Teachers.
Based on my observations and anecdotal evidence English teachers account for 0% of expats in Jakarta. That’s right, I never met a single English teaching expat in Jkt. See, the problem with anecdotal evidence is… well, obviously it’s anecdotal.
Anyway, 50% is certainly much too high. Just think about the wide range of expats you can find in Indonesia. You have hundreds or thousands of diplomats, you have journalists. Then there are the international organisations (UN family, World Bank), NGOs, the international aid organisations. Then, of course, the business sector: oil & gas, assembling, textiles, shoes, logistics, food products. All the expats exporting furniture. I know bules working in advertisement or the fashion industry. You have thousands of Korean and Japanese businessmen.
Indonesia is quite well integrated into the global economy. Accordingly, you have a wide range of foreigners coming to Indonesia for various reasons. I don’t have any numbers but I would assume that there are several tens of thousands expats living and working in Indonesia. My common sense (Try using it! It works) tells me English teachers cannot account for more than a couple of per cent at best.Moreover, despicable behavior is not limited to a certain profession. I know of diplomats popping ecstasy at Stadium. There are foreign correspondents sleeping with three different (local) girls every weekend! I know NGO do-gooder types that have girls all over the place. Then you have all the Japanese expats doing their thing in Blok M karaoke joints and hotels.
Then, finally, you have the large majority of decent bules who prefer a pleasant night out in Kemang or CBD to Stadium and the likes.the other expats are usually sent to Jakarta. They happen to be in a profession or career that takes them to Jakarta. They DON’T select a career specifically to get into Jakarta, and the motive for getting into Jakarta therefore CANNOT be sexual.
There is a big difference between a man who finds himself in Jakarta and has a sexual relationship, and that of a man who specifically undertakes a course with the intention of obtaining work in Jakarta and therefore accessing a sexual relationship. This is nothing more than sex tourism.
I don’t see a difference if a well-educated expat who was sent here by his company or an English teacher ‘shags an under-age girl’. They are both exploiting the girls and are committing a crime.
Notice Dee, its Saturday night and I am posting on the internet, whilst the English teachers on this site are strangely absent. Do you wonder what they are doing right now, and to whom?
You know, there are plenty of things to do on a Saturday night in Jakarta that do not involve Stadium, Blok M and ‘underage girls’. You seriously need to expand your horizon, Fred.
On a final note, the idea that bapak-bapak bule ‘shagging underage girls’ contributes to the rise of Islamist fundamentalism is laughable. First of all, they are enraged by the Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan not bule having sex with local girls. And fundamentalists just have to turn on the telly and watch some MTV to find proof for Western decadence. I would believe that Achmad had it right when he said that bule don’t account for much in Indonesia. The average Indonesian never even comes in contact with foreigners. And fundamentalists don’t hang out at Stadium to get a first-hand impression.
Janma said:
and as to your qualifications”¦. maybe no one has questioned them, but to write what you write you sound as though you think you are the only expat in indonesia worthy of being there”¦.. you feel you are qualified to pass judgement on all expats (or even 50 % of expats in indonesia, you may feel you’re qualified, but I’d say that’s questionable.
Amen, Janma.
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OK Rasmbutan, lets just go through your comments shall we:
Based on my observations and anecdotal evidence English teachers account for 0% of expats in Jakarta. That’s right, I never met a single English teaching expat in Jkt.
Then you obviously are unqualified to comment”¦”¦
Anyway, 50% is certainly much too high.
Who says? You??? But you don’t know any do you? So how can you comment?
Just think about the wide range of expats you can find in Indonesia. You have hundreds or thousands of diplomats,
THOUSANDS of Diplomats?? Would you care to substantiate that with some evidence?
You have thousands of Korean and Japanese businessmen.
The entire thread is about bules”¦.
I don’t have any numbers but I would assume that there are several tens of thousands expats living and working in Indonesia.
You don’t have any numbers but”¦”¦.. In fact you really have no idea what you are talking about.
My common sense (Try using it! It works) tells me English teachers cannot account for more than a couple of per cent at best.
Where in Gods name do you come up with that figure from?
I don’t see a difference if a well-educated expat who was sent here by his company or an English teacher ‘shags an under-age girl’. They are both exploiting the girls and are committing a crime.
I agree, however one is accepted by NGOs to be a well used route by pedophiles, and a widely accepted method of obtaining a paid sex tour of Asia.
On a final note, the idea that bapak-bapak bule ‘shagging underage girls’ contributes to the rise of Islamist fundamentalism is laughable. First of all, they are enraged by the Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan not bule having sex with local girls.
Proof???
The average Indonesian never even comes in contact with foreigners.
Indeed they don’t. They hear the stories though family and friends. Remember the 6 degrees of separation concept
I will not insult you. I don’t need to when stating my case, and it’s a mark of your desperation that you stoop to insulting me. If you cannot refute using reasoned arguments and facts, then why bother tapping the keys at all…..
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Did I insult you? Didn’t even notice. Maybe you are easily offended? I believe I used reasoned arguments but you refuse to accept any kind of reasoning and revert to saying that I have no idea what I’m talking about. Oh, well. For the sake of fun here I try again…
You don’t have any numbers but”¦”¦.. In fact you really have no idea what you are talking about.
On the issue of numbers: I cannot provide numbers, you cannot provide numbers. I think here we can agree at least. I am trying to use common sense. 50% of expats are english teachers? No, certainly not. Just try to estimate and add the different professions I listed: diplomats, businessmen, NGOs, intl organisations, banks, academicians, english teachers. Must be thousands. Plus their respective families. So total number of expats I would estimate to easily reach 20 or 30k. Do you really believe that you have ten thousand bule English teachers in Jakarta alone??
Thousands of diplomats as I mentioned might be too high but maybe close. Both Australia and Netherlands for example have one of their largest representations worldwide here, with hundreds of staff (mostly local of course). States Embassy is huge, too. You have at least 50 embassies in Jakarta. In total, you might have close to 1k diplomats. Even if it’s less, it goes to illustrate my point that you could find a huge range of expat professions in Jakarta if you would let go of your English teacher obsession for a second.
For examples of fundamentalist thinking try the website of Hizbut Tharir, or swaramuslim.com or similar websites. Never read anything about bules and underage girls there. Now, for the sake of clarity, it certainly wouldn’t improve their (or any body’s) opinion of bules but it just isn’t a major issue.
I can’t believe still arguing about this. And possibly arousing Achmad with all the typing…
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There were 25,000 Westerners in Jakarta on September 9th 2004.
The Australian Embassy Diplomatic staff on that day stood at 85.
(from conversation that night with Col Stuart Jarvis, British Defence Attache)
I can provide numbers”¦”¦..
However with this in mind, in Jakarta, English training has become an ever in increasing business, with endless English schools opening up at a drop of a hat.
October 24, 2007
http://www.ezinearticles.com/?ESL-Watchdog—In-House-Training&id=790361
Presumably all staffed by trained parrots if you to be believed”¦”¦.
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Yes, Rambutan, I am getting aroused.
But I think we’re beyond reasoning with Fred, so may as well just revert to insults.
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taxpayer says:
Just to help everyone with the number of BULE English Teachers, there are 197 in Jakarta according to Immigration.
Thank You and have a good day.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Here’s a humble attempt at diversion of the subject.
dee said
“¦once even the government had an idea to make it as ‘undang-undang’-any expat who want to marry Indonesian girls had to deposit certain amount of money to government (as protection to Indonesian girls if any divorced would be happened in the future)”¦
I heard this too some years ago. I’ve been told amounts of up to 250,000 USD. After that only silence. Probably died a slow death like so many attempts at legislation in this republic, including the infamous RUU APP, Warnet monitoring and the new 4-months visa regulation.
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Raden says:
Silly .. $250K to get dating & marry the Indonesian native girls? You should check it out how competitive the Chinese native China are, … smooth silky fair complexion chinese girls from their native kampung and there are million ou there … why should pick up Indonesian native girls? The world is global now, do not too much proud of your Indon country, after all it is a bunch of maids suppliers / exporters (made in Indon).
Chauvinism do not work anymore, ngaca dulu dong ! malu eh ….
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Tammy Ho says:
Fred Floggle:
I said 3 aunties are married to Germans. I’ve got 6 aunties. The rest of 2 uncles are married to Indonesians.
2 cousins are married to Dutch. One is a MALE cousin.
2 cousins are married to Germans. One of them is a MALE cousin.
If you think you are so qualified talking about interracial marriage successful rate, let me ask you this: despite your attempts of shagging (under age) girls, have you been married to a non-bule? Has anyone of your family is married to someone with a person who’s not Caucasian?
You have to remember that 20-40 years ago, even marrying someone who’s not from the same ethnic group caused a lot of stirs in Indonesia, let alone marrying someone from a different continent!
You’re asking about the percentage of Indonesian man married to Caucasian women. If you follow the Indonesia’s celebrity gossip, you would know that:
– Sophia Latjuba’s a mix Indonesian (father) and German (mother)
– Karina Suwandi (the famous actress in the 80’s) is a mix of Indonesian (father) and Eastern Europe (mother)
– Gladys Suwandhi (not related to Karina Suwandi) is a mix of Indonesian (father) and Eastern Europe (mother)
– Ari & Ira Wibowo are mix of Indonesian (father) and German (mother)The list of people with INDONESIAN FATHER with BULE MOTHER can be very long. On top of my head and with a little bit of research I found several other names like Btari Karlinda, Bianca Adinegoro, Claudia Hidayat, Caroline Zachrie…. But of course, you wouldn’t know these people because they exist in Tattler and you don’t circulate on that area.
Get a life Fred. Expand your horizon before you start preaching about other people’s life quality.
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Dragonwall says:
Ha..Ha..Ha.. All these 26 blogs talking to one person and still unable to solve the problem. Sorry to say FF your stand up to your name being floggle by that many people while you are trying to defend a word ‘expat’.
It is not the skin or color that matters. It is the brain that talk make cents.
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There were 25,000 Westerners in Jakarta on September 9th 2004.
this would make 12,500 English teachers according to your estimates.
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Tuan says:
Tammy:
I said 3 aunties are married to Germans. I’ve got 6 aunties. The rest of 2 uncles are married to Indonesians.
2 cousins are married to Dutch. One is a MALE cousin.
2 cousins are married to Germans. One of them is a MALE cousin.
If you think you are so qualified talking about interracial marriage successful rate, let me ask you this: despite your attempts of shagging (under age) girls, have you been married to a non-bule? Has anyone of your family is married to someone with a person who’s not Caucasian?
You have to remember that 20-40 years ago, even marrying someone who’s not from the same ethnic group caused a lot of stirs in Indonesia, let alone marrying someone from a different continent!
You’re asking about the percentage of Indonesian man married to Caucasian women. If you follow the Indonesia’s celebrity gossip, you would know that:
– Sophia Latjuba’s a mix Indonesian (father) and German (mother)
– Karina Suwandi (the famous actress in the 80’s) is a mix of Indonesian (father) and Eastern Europe (mother)
– Gladys Suwandhi (not related to Karina Suwandi) is a mix of Indonesian (father) and Eastern Europe (mother)
– Ari & Ira Wibowo are mix of Indonesian (father) and German (mother)The list of people with INDONESIAN FATHER with BULE MOTHER can be very long. On top of my head and with a little bit of research I found several other names like Btari Karlinda, Bianca Adinegoro, Claudia Hidayat, Caroline Zachrie”¦. But of course, you wouldn’t know these people because they exist in Tattler and you don’t circulate on that area.
Get a life Fred. Expand your horizon before you start preaching about other people’s life quality.
Just to add..historically Indonesians, specifically Malayan men from SE Asia, were known for intermixing (“martial prowess”) with other cultures. My SE Asian history is rusty so please correct me.. but the Sutlans or Rajahs married some of the Arab women that came with the Arabs when they landed in Indonesia.. the overseas Malays who were displaced to Sri Lanka and South Africa married the local women…The island of Madagascar which consists of
mix of Malay and African were descendants of Malayan pirates or seafarers who landed there.~Tuan – Indonesian-American Muslim
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Achmad Sudarsono continues that tradition, of “Marital” prowes, (I have martial prowess through my pencak silat), I always try to bed as many women as possible, providing I have the approval of my wives, Gandring, Nongoh and Inem, which I never do.
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dee says:
Tuan,
dee:
Treat people the same without seeing the race, position, belonging or any material things
Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.
Yes, I agree that we do not live in a perfect world, but we can make it perfect right? What do you call a person who knows that he/she able to do something but he/she does not put any action on it because he/she does not want it?
What do you call a person who knows that he/she should do something on ‘bad practise’ but he/she has never done anything?
What do you call a person who talks alot about things around him/her but never saw any mistake they make?
You know what, we can make this world better more and more as long as we are not merely talking (too many discussions), do something and be realistic by start it ourself not be so demanding by asking others to behave.Raden:
The world is global now, do not too much proud of your Indon country, after all it is a bunch of maids suppliers / exporters (made in Indon).
Chauvinism do not work anymore, ngaca dulu dong ! malu eh “¦.
Are you Indonesian? Now everyone can see why this nation getting worse morally…Be objective, there are things we can proud of Indonesia and some other things still need some actions to make it better…and we need people who really concern about this country to make it better.
Anyway, hopefully people who have posted their comments in here who really concern about Indonesia (not just taking advantage coz being provided some opportunities) not merely talk without doing something in real-NATO (NO ACTION TALK ONLY).
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Rambutan said
On a final note, the idea that bapak-bapak bule ‘shagging underage girls’ contributes to the rise of Islamist fundamentalism is laughable.
If sexual mores are not important to them, then why all the fuss about muslimah clothing, anti-pornography and –pornoaksi laws, women not allowed being alone outside after dark, even Inul Daratista being harassed because of her goyang ngebor gymnastics? Check out also Indonesia Matters – Tsunami caused by sin.
But why not ask the hardliners themselves; there are a couple of them contributing in this forum. Maybe they can enlighten us. -
Maggie Larocque says:
As a teacher and someone who has worked with children and youth for over 25 years, I can attest that most of the people who choose this work are dedicated, caring individuals who want nothing more than to make life a little easier for the children/youth with whom they work.
The work that teachers do is the most important work there is. Those who leave their homes, families and friends to travel overseas and teach are, granted, gaining something for themselves, but are NOT those who can not ‘make it’ in their homelands. These are well trained and experienced people who are willing to share their knowledge with others.
I am truly sorry that the writer had an unfortunate encounter with someone posing as a teacher, but let’s keep in mind that the person was posing and was not a teacher. -
Dee:
Yes, I agree that we do not live in a perfect world, but we can make it perfect right? What do you call a person who knows that he/she able to do something but he/she does not put any action on it because he/she does not want it?
What do you call a person who knows that he/she should do something on ‘bad practise’ but he/she has never done anything?
What do you call a person who talks alot about things around him/her but never saw any mistake they make?
You know what, we can make this world better more and more as long as we are not merely talking (too many discussions), do something and be realistic by start it ourself not be so demanding by asking others to behave.Well…as a jaded American, we can also plant flowers in the missile silos and sing “I wanna teach the world to sing” with everyone holding hands. But unfortunately hippies no longer exist and neither are the ideals. Its nice to have ideals but you also have to be realistic. There were always will be bad people, and good people will sometime suffer. That’s the unfortunate truth. You can not change the world or change the status quo. You do what you can to survive. But despite all that you can always change a corner of it.
~Tuan – Indonesian – American Muslim
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Achmad, your last post was one of the nicest thing you said about me Still looking back at the previous comments and need to straight things out here:
For all we know she’s happily married now with some touch-of-the-tarbrush sprogs running ’round.
Such a gossip maker, you. This statement is incorrect.
What does touch-of-the-tarbrush sprogs means? Any english teacher here?
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Dear Parvita,
As usual, I was just trying to provoke. A “touch of the tar-brush,” is a phrase from British colonial times. It was used to describe mixed-race children, here known as “Indo.” Unlike the sexy aura that having a mixed race has in Indonesia, a “touch of the tar brush,” was slightly derogatory, I think mainly because it’s indication of the colonial context.
All I really meant was, “for all we know she’s married with Indo kids now.” But thanks for the correction and I will continue to incite and occassionally spread gossip. Have fun with your rocks.
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PARVITA- Here is the definition of “Touch of the tarbrush SHRUGS”
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[Q] From David Fosse: “I used the phrase, tarred with the same brush recently, meaning, guilty of the same behavior, or acting in the same manner as someone else, or likely to be considered the same as someone else because of similar behavior. I was speaking to a black colleague at the time. I suddenly stopped and asked if she considered the term racist. She did. I have heard it all my life (as the 60-year-old child of parents who grew up in the south) and am pretty sure that it comes from the practice of tarring and feathering. I am not aware, however, of the full history of that lamentable practice, if it was primarily practiced against blacks or if the act had broader targets. So the question is, can tarred with the same brush be used universally, or does it have a racist history?”
[A] There’s nothing directly racist in its history, though there are such huge sensitivities in the United States and elsewhere over any expression that sounds as though it might be (as, for example, with words and phrases such as niggardly, call a spade a spade, and so on), that the reaction of your colleague is understandable. It also sounds as though it might be connected with the deeply pejorative expression a touch of the tar brush to describe somebody of mixed ancestry, though it’s actually a separate linguistic creation.
As it happens, it doesn’t have anything directly to do with tarring and feathering, either, which is an American vigilante punishment known from the eighteenth century (it’s first recorded in Boston, as it happens) and which my reading suggests wasn’t usually a punishment of blacks by whites but of whites by other whites.
The origin is the verb to tar, meaning to defile or dirty, known from the early years of the seventeenth century. The idiom appears in print first in 1818, in one of Sir Walter Scott’s novels, Rob Roy: “They are a’ tarr’d wi’ the same stick “” rank Jacobites and Papists.” Our modern form appears in William Cobbett’s Rural Rides in 1823: “‘You are all tarred with the same brush’, said the sensible people of Maidstone.”
The idea behind it is that two individuals who have been liberally daubed or painted with the same tar brush look much the same and so appear to have the same characteristics. The links of the colour black with matters that were detestable, dishonourable or evil also added to the negative sense.
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Ihaknt says:
Achmad, you’re very insensitive. She can’t have kids. You read her blog. Don’t you pay attention? Some subjects you just should not touch. It’s not a matter you can joke about. It can be hurtful.
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Well, I scanned the Blog, but didn’t read it too closely. And yes, I agree, it’s not something to joke about. So deep apologies, Parvita for any hurtfulness caused. Thanks for pointing it out, Ihaknt.
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dewaratugedeanom
If sexual mores are not important to them, then why all the fuss about muslimah clothing, anti-pornography and -pornoaksi laws, women not allowed being alone outside after dark, even Inul Daratista being harassed because of her goyang ngebor gymnastics? Check out also Indonesia Matters – Tsunami caused by sin.
But why not ask the hardliners themselves; there are a couple of them contributing in this forum. Maybe they can enlighten us.Not a hardliner but i’ll chime in… The people who make a big fuss about “bule” guys shagging local girls are nationalists (racists). As far as I know, nationalism is not a value in Islam and the only nation that is valued is the Muslim worldwide community that is not separated by boundaries, skin color or visas. And the thought of foreigners taking advantage of the local girls is not going to spread like wildfire and turn Indonesia into a hedonistic country like Thailand. Although, pornography and pop music has more influence.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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Concerned Teacher,
I think what most people used it to mean was that a person was a bit chocolatey in complexion.
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FF
What the? How would we know you’re not surfing internet porn and wanking at the same time? Talk about multi tasking!!!
Maybe the other teachers are out with their family!! You ARE narrow minded!