Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Guys (not you Stevie) happy to bail and leave you to it if that is the general consensus.
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ET says:
Oigal
However, if someone wants to sit on the fence then you are left without faith nor science.
Einstein once said “Faith without science is blind, science without faith is lame”. The underlying meaning is that both aren’t absolutes but that each have their inherent limitations. As long as these limitations aren’t cleared the most prudent and wise attitude is to ‘wait and see’, not by sitting on the fence, but by admitting that we still don’t know everything and that within the limits of our talents we must actively participate in finding out what our destiny is.
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Patrick says:
@Oigal – you are the bomb! Please stay as you are a fixture here @ IM and at the end of the day you are also a nice person despite your crazy half-baked ideas and opinions…ha ha ha! No worries mate…
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stevo says:
What’s wrong with sitting on the fence if you don’t consider yourself to have the arguments to make an informed choice and take sides?
In my view nothing.( Maybe another, careful, read of my post may clear things up.)
Thanks for the “life coaching” advice ET. You can see on any thread, you choose, that it is has never been me who begins with the personal attacks. My response is also mild compared to many. So I am interested why you directed those remarks towards me. I will refrain from cut n’ pasting a few examples of those “better days” …
But that said, point taken. It is time for a truce and a fresh start with Oigal. (I suggest no more personal attacks, including vague references to discussions on other threads inferring things never said and implying views not held. One topic at at time.)
Kripik, I do not think your an idiot. I think its fair to say you misunderstood the post. I did attempt to get things back to spiritual matters and invited you to share your experience and ideas. Rather than concentrate on the brave Patrick, who seems to be left carrying the flag all the time.
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weng weng says:
@Kripik.by muslim Sundanese .
Please carry on .
I don’t think much about those ego fights but I would be very interested to read more from you about the perception of sunda Wiwitan by Sundanese Muslim, something people have been quite reluctant to tell me about . Only things like “they do black magic blah blah blah” -
stevo
So I am interested why you directed those remarks towards me.
I never directed those remarks exclusively to you. But if you feel like that you must be aware that you also have been caught up in this hopeless bickering. No offence, I appreciate your contributions and also agree with many of your viewpoints.
I will refrain from cut n’ pasting a few examples of those “better days” …
I’ve been roaming these pages for quite a bit longer than you. IM has never been a ‘lifestyle’ blog and discussions have often been hard and at times ruthless but without getting stuck in a private vendetta.
But that said, point taken. It is time for a truce and a fresh start with Oigal. (I suggest no more personal attacks, including vague references to discussions on other threads inferring things never said and implying views not held. One topic at at time.)
Kudos and mazel tof.
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Reading the news reminds me of the harm religion and dogma cause. It is not just a philosophical matter of intellectual interest only. These beliefs result in terrible outcomes for real people. It is not harmless when people believe things on faith alone. It can be very damaging and lead to very ugly behaviour. We all pay the price for this, both theist and atheist.
Let us see what happens here amongst the people of the book. They all believe in the same god, so surely things can be settled in civilized way?
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“Reading the news reminds me of how” a godless world creates harm. I see the Chinese getting aggressive with every nation that so much has has a claim to a rock in the South China Sea. If we look just to the North we have a belligerent North Korea threatening nuclear war and exchanging nuclear technology with other hostile nationis such as Iran. In the Western Hemishere we have Hugo Chavez threatening to cut offf the countries massive oil reserves to wrek havoc with economies such as the United States. Then of course we have the image of the bule in Indonesia. The godless expat who sneers at the local people with their superstitious beliefs in the supernatural. He spends his evenings hanging out with other expats while they bitterly complain about their hosts country and try to bed every loose local woman that crosses their path. They live in gated communities, rarely venture out past their comfort zone, go to all the same clubs and pubs. He rarely hides his utter contempt for religion and doesn’t mind eating a feast during Ramadan while the fasting local workers must watch. He rides around town in his chauffeur driven company supplied car, never takes buses or trains and his only real contacts with the general population are the few people he has hired to do things he would had to do himself if he was in his country of origin, or at his job. If he holidays he heads for Bali, Singapore or Phuket. The majority of his time is spent drinking and chasing women or worse the cross dressers found throughout Asia. Geesh Stevo, talk about the “ugly godless”..
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If you are making the point that atheists do bad things too, then I agree Patrick. That in no way contradicts my observations.
However, the key difference is that these things are not done because of their lack of belief. The religious violence is done on the basis of belief in God.
As for the expats you speak of, most are probably Christians, not atheists.
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and chasing women or worse the cross dressers found throughout Asia.
With all the things going on in the world, why are you Christians so worried about what folk are doing in their bedrooms?
I would have thought there were much larger concerns for the Church to ponder.
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Yes Stevo, I was making that point exactly so how observant of you to notice. However, I think it does dramatically lessen your argument that religion is the, almost exclusive, reason for the world’s ills and that the way to cure those ills is to eliminate religion.
“As for the expats that you speak of, most are Christians, not atheist.”
I will politely agree most of the expats were likely born Christian but I think that once they renounce religion and God that no longer qualifies them as a Christians. Perhaps you have a different opinion?
“With all the things going on the world….”
Ah Stevo your statement shows me that the point I was trying to make was completely misunderstood by you. I was trying to convey that the behavior of Westerners is observed and often judged by the local population. What this means is that we are having a clash of cultures in many foreign land and most noticeably in Muslim countries. This is the real crisis in the world and one that Westerners need to pay attention to when they visit or are guests in these lands.
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your argument that religion is the, almost exclusive, reason for the world’s ills
That has never been my claim and I have previously made that clear in my comments. I am also well aware that you are not getting much support, from your fellow believers, on this thread. This may give a false impression your beliefs are being singled-out.
I agree with your observations regarding Westerners in foreign lands. The tourists, particularly, cast a very false impression of life in the West. The locals often don’t realize that is just holiday behavior. They think we spend all our time drinking and having the dreaded “FREE SEX” (If only)
I still don’t agree that chasing cross dressers is the “worse” thing they do. I have never tried it myself, are they hard to catch?
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@Stevo – is that Chubby Checkers’ song “the twist” I hear playing again in the background when I read your response here on IM? Speaking of Chubby maybe you should start chasing the skinny cross dressers as they are the ones who can run away from you Stevo! Ha ha ha ha!!!
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I agree with your observations regarding Westerners in foreign lands. The tourists, particularly, cast a very false impression of life in the West. The locals often don’t realize that is just holiday behavior. They think we spend all our time drinking and having the dreaded “FREE SEX” (If only)
Holiday behavior? What muslim countries do you have in mind where tourists go and behave in a way not befitting the local sensitivities? Bali may be part of a majority muslim country but it is worldwide known to be a hindu enclave with a very tolerant culture and a religion which doesn’t eschew the ‘vices’ of the flesh. If the locals from muslim countries come in contact at all with lewd behaviour of Westerners then it is primarily through sex magazines and DVD’s which are sold under the counter by the millions. Muslim countries are the highest consumers of internet pornography because it is the forbidden fruit by which they can satisfy their curiosity and escape a repressive ‘morality’ that measures sinfulness by the surface of exposed skin. During the raid in Pakistan in which OBL was killed dozens of pornographic materials were confiscated in his compound by the SEALs and guess what: no bloody Western tourist in sight.
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I did not mention Muslim countries in particular, but you make a valid point.
I am sure there are Muslims, of strict faith, that would say those DVD’s, sex industry etc are a sign of moral decline bought about by the Westerners. The Bali bomb was not planted by Balinese people.
The moral hypocrisy of many Muslims, particularly around sexual matters, is something I am well aware of. I know of many things that would appall an atheist sinner such as myself.
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I just had to share this. The Catholic Church once banned BIBLES
Ordinary folk could not own them.
POPE INNOCENT III
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
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@Stevo – I am really curious to know what your point is about Pope Innocent III not allowing Catholics lay people to own bibles? Are you, an avowed atheist, outraged by this or is there something else bothering you about this decree? Please explain and enlighten us to your objections.
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As a point of fact, I expressed no opinion on the matter either way.
However it does provide another example of how controlling the Church has been. Throughout most of its history it has been as much part of the political process as the spiritual one. It is still trying to achieve this in the USA today.
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@Stevo – you say that you just wanted to post a point of fact nothing else and then in the next paragraph you attack the Church using this as an example of how controlling the Church can be throughout history. There you said it and that is the real reason you posted that little fun fact yesterday. You also said the Church has political aspirations as well, as you stated, “…it has been as much a part of the political process as the spiritual one”.
If you look back a few months ago we addressed the reasons that the Church felt that those who attempted to learn the bible should not attempt it alone but rather should seek out proper guidance and I offered two passages in the bible that supported that position. Much of the Protestant Reformation and even those fundamentalist types, that you so adore, were influenced by their private interpretation of the bible. As you can see the Church at that period had good reason to try and prevent Catholics from misinterpreting the bible and often coming to a conclusion than was not meant by the writer.
Yes, the Church has a rather long history of be part of the political process in many nations through the centuries. Was this always beneficial then the answer is no as in many instances it was detrimental to both the country and the church. The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind as an extreme example of this and there has also been much good such as the Church taking a stand in Nazi Germany by reading a letter, denouncing the tactics of the Nazis especially against the Jews, from the pope to all the attendees at mass and in every Church in Germany when no other faith or institution did likewise. If you have a specific grievence to discuss please feel free to post it for future discussion.
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If you have a specific grievence to discuss please feel free to post it for future discussion.
Rich pickings there Patrick, going back thousands of years.
The rise of religious intolerance around the globe, and the situation in the Middle East, are just some of the current crop of religion inspired grievances. Religion continues to be the motivation for the mistreatment of others along with never ending war and conflict. This is detrimental to the peace and security of atheists and theist alike. Freedom of speech is being curtailed due to religious intolerance, which also runs contrary to freedom of religion.
Religion can not be excused on the trite observation that non believers also commit wrongs. That is the sort of irresponsible justification one would expect from a small child who has not yet developed their morals. I believe you do have morals, so lets see you apply them to the current situation.
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@ Stevo – At the risk of sounding trite, there is an old saying you should learn and that goes “People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” My point is to refute your argument that religion has failed by countering that atheism, in it’s much shorter history, has an even worse track record. You no sooner posted your most recent comment than the American ambassador to China was being surrounded by an angry mob protesting USA support for Japan in the dispute over the Senkakus Islands. These incidents in the South China Sea and Pacific have the potential to be even more destructive than the current situations in the Middle East.
My whole point to this is that their is something inside of human beings that is intristic and religion is able to define what it is while atheists deny it. Christians identify it as evil that is passed generation to generation through what we call original sin which goes back to Adam and Eve.
“Freedom of speech is being curtailed due to religious intolerance…” OK your speaking about Muslims and what going on in cities throughout the Muslim World? As far as I know, we still have freedom of speach in the USA despite the efforts of this current administration to erode this important feature of our democracy. Christians may get upset when Christ is desecrated by countless artists and writers but we do not rise as a group to attack those responsible. Islam takes a much more hostile approach,as it has a much different philosophy, and perhaps one of the millions of Muslims in Indonesia should address your question.
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You no sooner posted your most recent comment than the American ambassador to China was being surrounded by an angry mob protesting USA support for Japan in the dispute over the Senkakus Islands. These incidents in the South China Sea and Pacific have the potential to be even more destructive than the current situations in the Middle East.
Are you seriously suggesting that the dispute between China and Japan is all about atheism ?
There may be many atheists in China & Japan, but that is not the reason, or motivation, for the things they do. Correlation does not imply causation. I have refuted this fallacy numerous times but you keep trotting it out. You may as well attribute it to eating rice or drinking tea. China has a rapidly growing Christian movement. Should I attribute the troubles in the South China Sea to that fact……. or maybe it is the rice?
The reality is that Chinese make terrible atheists due to their numerous superstitious beliefs, a trait they share with most Asian cultures.
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“The reality is that Chinese make terrible atheists due to their numerous superstitious beliefs …”
Wow! Even people who don’t believe in anything can disagree about nothing…I love it! Why do you think so poorly about Asian atheists? Perhaps this is one kind of discrimination or hostility you have harbored deep inside of you as you are convinced that your Western valued atheism is somehow superior to that of your Asian brothers and sisters?
For your information, the Chinese and Japanese dispute was mentioned to demonstrate that mainly atheistic countries are not good examples of Shangri-La either. (pun intended 🙂
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Patrick, I do not think poorly of Asian atheists. I never implied such a thing. I do not consider myself superior in any way.
We appear to have different definitions of what an atheist is. I suggest that your definition (of a theist) is defined by a belief in the Christian God. My definition of an atheist is non belief in any God or supernatural entity. My definition extends to various superstitions. This may not be technically correct, but I do not get too concerned about the whole agnostic/atheist type argument.
Wow! Even people who don’t believe in anything can disagree about nothing…I love it!
Not believing in your God does not imply a person believes in nothing. You also over look the fact that you and I probably share many fundamental beliefs. Its not all or nothing. You fail to see the common ground by your relentless focus on your Christianity.
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@Stevo – Thesism is the belief in a supernatural being(s)that basically is in control of the Universe and everything in it. You are right though as a Christian I see only one deity and that is the belief in the God of Abrahama only.
My saying about people who don’t believe in anything can disagree about nothing was definitely tongue-in-cheek humor but I see it didn’t work. Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you as you are quite right we have allot in common about many things including morals and other related beliefs. I spent years debating you and Oigal as well others on his site because I knew deep down we are cut from the same cloth we just have different dyes,weaves and patterns 🙂
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Agreed. I just wish some other theist would speak their mind.
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@Stevo – Millions of theists in Imdonesia and not another one has showed up to defend the faith in almost one weeks time? It seems David needs to rethink how to attract Indonesians to this site. Perhaps it’s allowing Indonesian people to post in their native language if they feel uncomfortable with English? I am sure David wouldn’t mind setting up a translation of sort so as to accommodate this new influx of fresh ideas to this thread. Perhaps having links to Indonesian language newspapers and social sitess would also be helpful.
P.s., still waiting for David to start a new thread concerning the High School brawls that seem to be never ending in Jakarta and elsewhere.
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Hats off to to the cheerleaders of Kountze High School in Texas for successfully defending their right to use bible quotes on their banners. Apparently, quoting the bible didn’t sit well with atheists from out of state who complained to the local school board representing Kountze High School. The board then went to court and a judge ruled in favor of the cheerleaders upholding their constitutional right to free speech.
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Patrick, do you think the Republicans Christian inspired focus, on what people do with their own bodies, may have cost them the election ?
They alienated many women, and potentially right leaning gays, with some of their comments.
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Sorry ET, I am aware that the insult fest can be boring for some but I thought most tend to skip over.
As for agnostic, pretty sure it was a Hitchens quote and it should not be taken personally in this case. However, I agree with the main thrust that the overwhelming scientic evidence would indicate there is no after life nor heaven nor hell. Now if someone wants to disregard all that and still believe, that’s fine and that’s faith. However, if someone wants to sit on the fence then you are left without faith nor science.
Let’s put another way, the true believers refute evolution on ‘faith’ yet those that believe in evidence believe in evolution based on the sheer weight of supporting science. There is always nano chance of the believers being correct but how many of us really say about evolution ‘I don’t know’. The key difference of course, is science rarely deals in absolutes whereas religion lives by them.