Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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stevo says:
Kripic, atheism is not a belief system. It makes no “claim” at all. Not believing in something is not a belief system. You are born an atheist and are taught religion.
People do not need religion to form morals, even for Christians this applies. Much of contemporary Christian morality contradicts the clear words of the bible. They have formed their morality in spite of, not because of, their bible.
This whole area of, what informs our morality, is the subject of much debate.
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@Stevo – Are you serious? We just has a whole week of atheists meetings at e Democratic National Convention.
Compared with the thousands of years you lot have been “spreading the word”?
I also note that it is not compulsory to attend Democratic Conventions and that many of those attending are bible thumpers just like you my friend.
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kripik says:
Stevo, that’s exactly what I said. Positions/statements claiming or denying the existence of (at least) one god, nothing more.
And we are born non-theists. It’s nearly impossible for a new-born baby to “think” of other things than breastfeeding.
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ET says:
Kripic, atheism is not a belief system. It makes no “claim” at all. Not believing in something is not a belief system. You are born an atheist and are taught religion.
We seem to have a semantic problem here. In my book atheism is just as much a belief system as theism because it takes something for granted which it cannot prove and gives no explanation based on evidence, only on incomplete hypothesis and rejection. Theism and atheism are just the opposite sides of the same coin of arrogance. The only honest attitude is that of agnosticism, humbly admitting that we still don’t know everything and that by incessantly putting our brains to work hopefully one day we may find the answers to the big questions.
Babies aren’t born atheists but agnosts (= not knowing), with brains like a blank sheet of paper. -
ET, It is not an issue of semantics, it is an issue of understanding what an atheist is.
If a person declares themselves an atheist, you can infer nothing more about their beliefs on anything. It is not a statement or philosophy. Many atheists do not say “there is no God”. It is more a case of atheists seeing no evidence to convince them. Personally I do not declare with 100% certainty that God does not exist, but I have seen no evidence to support the claims made by theists.
I could claim that I have a nest of magical dragons in my garden. I ride them through the heavens and drink beer with God and a host of fairy people, every Tuesday after work. Based on your statement, a person would be “arrogant” for not believing this claim, even though I have provided no evidence to support my claims. (Note my claims are mild, compared to what Christianity claims)
What is truly “arrogant” is to expect others to believe these fantastic things without providing evidence.
Do you see where I am coming from?….
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Patrick says:
ET – you said, babies are born unknowing? What about that Oxford University study that said that babies have an intuitive knowledge of God? In fact the researcher was so convinced of the study results that he said if babies could raise themselves on an island with no adults that they would eventually start worshipping God. BTW the bibles says the same thing 🙂
@ Stevo – Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said that the greatest trick the devil ever performed was convincing people that he does not exists. Pride is the sin of the devil and doubting the existence of God is also the sin of pride. What this means is that your expectations of God are not met through what you consider common sense reasoning. Therefore, you do not accept God just like the devil did not accept God. This is why prideful sin is the greatest offense committed against God. Search deep within yourself with humility and humbleness and God will find you and you will discoveout that you are more than a lifetime existence on this Earth. God bless you!
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Which “God” are we talking about here Patrick?
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@Stevo – one would have guessed that you would have figured that out when I mentioned the bible….Anyway see Romans 1:20
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BrotherMouzone says:
We seem to have a semantic problem here. In my book atheism is just as much a belief system as theism because it takes something for granted which it cannot prove and gives no explanation based on evidence, only on incomplete hypothesis and rejection. Theism and atheism are just the opposite sides of the same coin of arrogance. The only honest attitude is that of agnosticism, humbly admitting that we still don’t know everything and that by incessantly putting our brains to work hopefully one day we may find the answers to the big questions.
I actually have to lean towards ET’s definition here; for me atheism is a clear set of beliefs whereas agnosticism is the recognition that we can’t really know for sure.
However, to call them equally “arrogant” or indeed equally illogical is a little harsh. One side insists that – to take Stevo’s earlier example – there is a nest of dragons at the end of my garden and that if you don’t believe in them you are going to go to hell. The other points out that there isn’t a nest of dragons at the end of your garden and challenges you to prove the dragon’s existence.
Where some atheists go a bit too far is by calling people names, or implying they are stupid for believing in the magical dragons. However, given the context, to challenge someone for believing in magical dragons, (or indeed in a God-man who can come back from the dead and that wants you to drink his blood and can turn bread into his flesh), isn’t such a bad thing, so long as it is conducted in a civil manner…
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@ Patrick
ET – you said, babies are born unknowing? What about that Oxford University study that said that babies have an intuitive knowledge of God? In fact the researcher was so convinced of the study results that he said if babies could raise themselves on an island with no adults that they would eventually start worshipping God.
The fact that humans may be pre-programmed towards religious belief doesn’t in any way make the existence of God any more or less likely. Humans are also pre-programmed to procreate indiscriminately and kill each other but that doesn’t make those things desirable behaviors.
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atheism is a clear set of beliefs
No no no ! It is not BrotherMouzone. It is non-belief in something, not a belief. It makes no claim at all, let-alone a “set of beliefs”.
Is not believing in my magic dragons a “set of beliefs” , of course not.
It is up to the person making the claim (there is a God) to provide evidence in support. Not believing is the default and neutral position.
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@Stevo – so what your saying is that to believe there is no god is not a belief…mmmm?
Let’s look at atheism, as Stevo says, not a belief statement. If you don’t believe than why are atheist missionaries such as you and Oigal always preaching its merits and benefits?
Why do atheists need to have a world conference?
Why are atheists constantly in court complaining that God should be eliminated from the national allegiance, have religious symbols removed from all public buildings., in God we trust be removed from money etc.
Why are atheists in the military trying to have atheism recognized officially as a religion?
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Stevo
Not believing is the default and neutral position.
I still don’t agree. Not knowing is the default and neutral position. Not believing requires an act of thinking and comparing, just like believing does. Not believing requires also making a choice in the light of available possibilities and evidence, or the lack of it.
Patrick
ET – you said, babies are born unknowing? What about that Oxford University study that said that babies have an intuitive knowledge of God? In fact the researcher was so convinced of the study results that he said if babies could raise themselves on an island with no adults that they would eventually start worshipping God.
How on earth did they find out that babies have an intuitive knowledge of god? Could those babies speak for themselves? Or did those researchers interpreted baby’s crying for mother’s tit to be a proclamation of faith and suckling an act of worship?
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Denying believing into something that hasn’t been proven yet is quite neutral to me.
Interesting is how significant such a position is in your views and opinions. I like to believe there is more between heaven and earth but this “question” is not something I’m concerned with every single day and not part of my political and moral orientation. Many atheists are not interested in “waging war” against religion but just want to live and let live.
Patrick, your statement about being oppressed by atheists is quite pathetic and offending to all the people worldwide facing real oppression. You are lucky to live in the US where you can practice your Catholicism without fear.
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@ET – Interesting theory on how these studies should be observed. What island do you suggest for the next study as Indonesia has thousands of them unoccupied?
@Kripic – what on earth are you talking about being offended? These are facts so either answer them or find a new hobby.
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If you don’t believe than why are atheist missionaries such as you and Oigal
Comparing me with Oigal makes my point. We have very different views on many things, even though we are both atheists. I do not condone hypocricy and double standards, for example, nor am I a self absorbed narcissist who is full of shit. Yet I can agree with Oigal on that one thing.
I still don’t agree. Not knowing is the default and neutral position. Not believing requires an act of thinking and comparing, just like believing does. Not believing requires also making a choice in the light of available possibilities and evidence, or the lack of it.
We are splitting hairs here ET and I have heard this argument advanced before. Am I correct in thinking you have a “belief system” in place regarding my Magic Dragons In The Garden. If not, why?
I do see your point but I am not convinced by this line of reasoning. You can postulate all manner of crazy things and label those who do not believe as having a belief system. That really does not fit with the facts and seems a bit silly.
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Why are atheists constantly in court complaining that God should be eliminated from the national allegiance, have religious symbols removed from all public buildings., in God we trust be removed from money etc.
The obvious questions to ask are; why are those things there in the first place?/ which God?/ why are these things imposed by central government on people of varying beliefs?/ where is the religious freedom for non-Christians?…
I am not opposed to you practising your faith Patrick. I am against you imposing it on others through central government.
You can build all the Mosques/Churches etc you like, and sing & pray all you want. Its not my business. The problem is the State forcing relgious observance on others. In my work I am required to take religious oaths, though I am clearly an atheist. All most atheists are asking is plain old religious freedom. In that regard we must surely have some common ground ?
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Patrick, You falsely represent me..again. I am certainly no missionary, tis you that have appeared on this atheist thread and others waving your particular faith wand. You would not find me on the Micks are us thread for instance nor would you find me making nonsensical allegations that someone is not fit for public office because of a particular faith (or non faith). Your piece on the dems convention is a classic.
Although, I would agree with you that babies not exposed to science and education will certainly fill the void with God, after all humans have need to understand why the sun rises and sets etc.
Speaking of classics, sshh, Stevio cutting and pasting from Wikki makes you anexpert on nothing and certainly not music :-).
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“I am required to take religious oaths”. Really? They do away with the Affirmation in Walter Mitty world?
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Stevio cutting and pasting from Wikki makes you anexpert on nothing and certainly not music .
Is that all you have ? Your slipping.
“I am required to take religious oaths”. Really? They do away with the Affirmation in Walter Mitty world?
I “take” the oath, not “give” the oath….. halfwit.
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Well administer the Oath, more precisely Oigal. Ya still a halfwit regardless. 🙂
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Patrick, these are laughable and offending when compared with the oppression, to keep it local, the Christians in Bekasi and Bogor, the Ahmadis and the Shia Muslims are facing. And there are far more worse situations in other places in the world.
As for new hobbies, go tell that to your Catholic clergymen, it’s a helluva lot safer for our kids.
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@Oigal – I think it was the hat that you always wear that gave away your missionary status.
@Stevo – all you did was prove that Oigal and you are in a state of schism. Maybe after a few centuries you will reconcile your differences or maybe not? It must be difficult to have a different take on believing in nothingness? The arguments you two must have….
@Kripic – again, what are you talking about by attempting to compare my questions concerning atheism as a type of belief system and your being insulted by those questions? Get a grip…..
Any members of the clergy who engage in sexual crimes against children are not God fearing and i would suggest they are godless…..
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Now now Walter, do try and be civil, one should try to rise above one’s limitations.
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Thanks for that content free brain fart Oigal. Now run along and try and impress someone more naive.
Speaking of which, where are your little band of sycophants and enbalers recently?
Maybe they have grown tired of you, along with more lucid commentors such as BB.
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Nay says:
The only honest attitude is that of agnosticism, humbly admitting that we still don’t know everything and that by incessantly putting our brains to work hopefully one day we may find the answers to the big questions.
Yes – totally agree.
Science is what’s got us where we are today, and the technology we use to live the lives we lead. If we start throwing out the scientific, logical, and rational principles that forged us these advances, then we enter dangerous territory.
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Really Nay? Perhaps you should go back a few pages where we commented and debated at length miracles within the Catholic Church. As you will find what science can prove points to the existence of the supernatural and specifically to Jesus.
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Aww Stevie…sorry…Walter, Just trying to help you, call it a community service if you will. Your inability to be civil and boring reliance on cut and paste from Wiki just highlights a general lack of class and education.
Don’t worry, like burning ants with a magnifying glass, talking with people like yourself is at best a cruel and short lived amusement for boring afternoons.
Although, I do confess a certain disappointment, I would have thought thanks was in order as at least someone had responded to your increasingly more frantic and verbal boils and crys for attention. Have you thought of a pet? I would suggest something inanimate at first as the last thing you need is more intellectual competition in the home (You do recall the gold fish incident right?)
Oh back to your other nonsense, which Goverment or other organisation forces you to take or administer a religious oath? Unless things have changed, every person has the option of taking the non religious affirmation. How could you not know that its on Wikki. Laugh
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Your inability to be civil and boring reliance on cut and paste from Wiki just highlights a general lack of class and education.
What a raving hypocrite. I cut n pasted some song titles, of a band I was familiar with, and that is the basis of your rant LOL This from someone who constantly demands external references for any oppossing view (though not for any view in support). In a similar hypocritical fashion you launch into personal attacks when ever your very limited knowledge on any subject is questioned. On your own little site you simply delete any dissenting view that highlights your double standards and lack of knowledge. That tells me all I need to know about you.
Maybe I am not “classy” or “educated enough. (Tough shit) Again, another telling insight into the mind of a self absorbed narcissist.
which Goverment or other organisation forces you to take or administer a religious oath?
It is not my job to address the failure of the Aussie education system to instill some knowledge into you (or the ability to simply Google stuff)
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Both atheism and theism cannot be sources of evil and violence. They are positions/statements of denying/believing in the existence of (at least one) god. That’s it, no more. There are no morals or ideologies attached. Now if you do construct an ideology where such a position is essential and you want to force that ideology upon others, even with violence, then trouble starts. Hence Catholicism and Communism/Socialism and a bunch of other sets all share a strikingly similar history in behaviour and mannerism.
Here’s a great quote from the movie Kingdom of Heaven:
I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here (head) and here (heart) and what you decide to do every day will make you a good man…or not.