Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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stevo says:
Your too kind Nay. Make the prick look for himself.
I did a bit of poking around on the internet and was surprised to see that so many countries have oaths that make reference to God.
It was some time ago, but I seem to remember my oath for office mentioned God. Now I administer oaths and affirmations, with options for Chinese and Muslim folk. (I am not sure why there is a difference between Muslim and Christian oaths.)
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kripik says:
Pfff lots of name calling here… Just on this page: prick, self absorbed narcissist full of shit, raving hypocrite, halfwit…. Almost like a youtube channel…
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You must be new here kripik, it shows. There are times when constructive comment is worthless and we just feed the resident troll.
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ET says:
Stevo
We are splitting hairs here ET and I have heard this argument advanced before. Am I correct in thinking you have a “belief system” in place regarding my Magic Dragons In The Garden. If not, why?
I do see your point but I am not convinced by this line of reasoning. You can postulate all manner of crazy things and label those who do not believe as having a belief system. That really does not fit with the facts and seems a bit silly.
We are not talking here about a belief in one or more specific gods but about whether to believe or not in the supernatural in general. So your reference to your Magic Dragons In The Garden is beside the question.
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Stevo, I’m an Indonesian who has been living in various Western European nations for almost two decades now. Right now I’m living in Holland, I don’t speak Dutch (I wish I could) but virtually everybody speaks English here and some Malay of the Dutch Indies. I have always been critical to organized religions and such a position is peculiar, even in my own family. Perhaps I’m an agnost but I have this romantic belief there’s more between heaven and earth, maybe a longing for spirituality like many Asians have. Therefore I don’t consider myself an atheist but luckily I’ve set myself free from the poisonous influence of “pendidikan moral pancasila” where atheism is equal to communism and all things evil although Pancasila itself is an appropiate philosophy for a diverse nation like Indonesia. For me atheism is just a position of disbelieving without attached morals, belief systems or ideologies. Atheists are a disparate bunch of people and many here base their morals unintentionally on the undeniable Christian-Jewish heritage of this continent, they just don’t believe in god and just want live and let live, although there are some fundamentalist secular tendencies in Holland. For instance the mayor in The Hague decided churches are no longer fit polling stations during elections because of a “lack of neutrality”. Many secularists and atheists don’t see any objection of casting votes in houses of worship.
I’ve arrived on this particular thread because I find the original subject interesting and an example of what’s wrong with Indonesia, an persistent inabiltity to cope with free thought and now dangerously descending to the level of threathening precious indigenous belief systems like kejawen, sunda wiwitan, kaharingan, aluk te dolo, tolotang etc.
I’ve read through this thread I don’t know who’s the real troll, Oigal, Lairedion, Patrick or you. What I do know is that troll feeding is useless unless you enjoy name calling which makes your desire to have constructive discussions questionable. What speaks for Oigal is that he freely admits enjoying throwing out baits out of boredom. My advice would be stop paying attention and replying, just sayin’.
Enjoy your beef…..
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We are not talking here about a belief in one or more specific gods but about whether to believe or not in the supernatural in general. So your reference to your Magic Dragons In The Garden is beside the question.
Do you not see the contradiction in your statement?
I am not one to get too involved in the terms used. I simply do not believe in a God. After reading your comments, and thinking about them, I looked up the definition of agnostic. It actually fits with my thinking. I am not sure about what, if anything, we disagree on.
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maybe a longing for spirituality like many Asians have.
It is not special to Asians. It is a very human thing.
I figured you were not from an Anglo Saxton culture, from your first comments. Your advice regarding the resident Troll is predictable. He is well versed in playing on the social norms of Indonesian people. He makes a living from it. I make mine from knowing who is talking shit.
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Stevo,
Anglo-Saxon culture? Is that the benchmark of this site? Posters are either Anglo-saxon or not? OK, from which Anglo-saxon country are you from exactly?
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I am half Syrian just for start……….. but sorry, where did I state a benchmark ?
I find it interesting, and informative, that you picked that to comment on from all the things I said.
I think I can read minds!
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Stevo,
I don’t know, you tell me. You started mentioning Anglo-Saxon culture. I found that remarkable.
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Base now profanity now Walter/Stevie tsk tsk (hehe..my oath for office, gotta love it). Cause I am feeling generous tonight Stevie, remember when posting “less is more” otherwise you end up looking like the aggrieved drunk screaming out “and another thing…..blah blah”
Actually Kripik, I confess I really shouldn’t but Stevie is just so much fun. I am trying to raise his ability to insult but I have just so much to work with. Although you should pay attention to his dissection on Indonesian, his friend the dectective went to Bali once and told him all about it.
Patrick and L are not Trolls, I think Patrick honestly believes the stuff he trots out including the conspiracy theories which makes interesting to try and pin him down to the logical end point of the positions he expouses. L is very articulate, pretty much to the left and doesn’t rely on Wikki as the sum of his knowledge.
As for agnostic, I tend to agree with man who said it is the least brave position of all, the religious position of sitting on the fence. I do find Patrick’s oppression of Christians in America position fairly repugant. What private non religious organisation with proven systematic sexual abuse be allowed to continue with the same management? What private organisation would be allowed to carve off parts of it and declare bankruptcy to avoid payment to victims of crime? What private organisation would be allowed to run such secretive fund raising activities? What non religious organizations are sponsored to the same extent with tax free status, government sponsorship to doctrinal schools? Excuse me, but I am having serious trouble picking the oppression in the above.
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I found that remarkable.
I did not find it remarkable at all.
You are the one who made (first) reference to culture, not me.
You can look like a real idiot by implying that I have something against Indonesians…. but I am sure you would never do that. I like Indonesia, maybe you should too.
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Now now Stevie just because I made you angry no need to lash out at everyone :-).
Nav, the AFP does and has for many years accepted the non religious Affirmation or Oath as requested. It is official government policy.
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Well Oigal you out did yourself.
You started out with the obligatory personal attack. Nothing new there and nothing substantiated. I could call into question your laughable references about your military service (yeah right! SAS ?) and your self proclaimed altruism towards the natives of the local Kampung etc, but I am not quite that much of a wanker, yet. ( though reading your drivel inspires me)
You follow up with a craven and transparent attempt to save face and look like the voice of reason. Trouble is, there are years of your personal attacks and intemperate rants recorded on IM. You only fool the foolish.
I am sure you already have this figured out but; Stay in Indonesia. You have gone bamboo and lost yourself. Your former countrymen will not be as kind & tolerant as I have been to you.
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Dearie me..Stevie, for your own sake don’t drink and post. Surely you realize the rest of the post was not for you, I am sure I have told you before you are humour value only.
Love to stay and play some more and love to drag some Stevie Past Classics but out at the moment and its a pain on the phone to type. Do try and keep the profanity posts down to two or three in response otherwise you look a bit too needy.
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Thanks for the tips Oigal. I will remember to ignore them.
Tell us another story about your time in the service, or maybe some revisionist history to amuse the informed…
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stevo,
You are the one who made (first) reference to culture, not me.
I thought it was fair to tell you more about my background being Indonesian living in the West and all that. You said you already figured out from my earlier comments I’m not from an Anglo-Saxon culture and saw this confirmed. Good call but why specifically Anglo-Saxon culture?
You can look like a real idiot by implying that I have something against Indonesians…. but I am sure you would never do that.
The very fact you post often on this Indonesia-themed site most certainly must imply some sort of love or interest for Indonesia so you’re correct, I see no reason why I would ever want to do such a thing. What is the reason behind this remark?
I like Indonesia, maybe you should too.
I am Indonesian, Sundanese to be more precise and I will always love Ibu Pertiwi. I’m just worried about the direction Indonesia is heading. Again, the subject of this thread is an example of what’s wrong with Indonesia, an persistent inabiltity to cope with free thought and now dangerously descending to the level of threatening precious indigenous belief systems like kejawen, sunda wiwitan, kaharingan, aluk te dolo, tolotang etc.
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Ok Kripik,we cleared that up. You have not said anything I disagree with.
This is an Atheist Thread, so maybe you could say more about indigenous beliefs?
We have focused allot on Christians and a bit on Muslims, but there is much more out there, especially in Indonesia.
I know Buddhist, Catholic and Muslim Indonesians. All of them have beliefs which ( I think) relate to indigenous beliefs. I certainly will not find reference to some of their ideas in the teachings of the Buddha or in the Bible, for example.
I also know a few Chinese well. They are atheists from the PRC. Yet all have superstitious beliefs. Mostly you only see this if you know them well, but they are there and taken seriously.
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Oigal,
I have no plans to play around with anyone on any site, I’m not interested in that.
Unfortunately within a couple of comments stevo made a first attempt into name calling by suggesting I could be an idiot. I’m trying to figure out why I deserve such a label by being open on my background. It’s not a big deal, my world is not falling apart now but still it’s still interesting to know why. Did I disrespect him in any way?
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Good call but why specifically Anglo-Saxon culture?
Oh about that…
Well it is an easy guess. Most people are not from Anglo Saxton cultures, so I had a good chance of being right. I could have narrowed it down allot more, based on the tone of your posts. Its just gut feeling, more than thinking about it. Nothing to do with your English (It’s better than mine, on IM) just the manner and approach you take.
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by suggesting I could be an idiot
Yes you “could” just as anyone “could”. Read it again and note the world “can” in there. Then try and relax a bit.
I must admit I am not as good at this insult business as Oigal. IM shows years of his carry on. I guess the fact I won’t tell lies and quote sentence fragments out of context hampers me. Its the price I pay for having a moral compass. I can live with that.
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Fair enough, stevo. Disregard my “idiot” question.
In my family there’s a small branch following Sunda Wiwitan. They are not Badui but regular Sundanese from Cikarang. I’m from a Sunni Muslim background like most Sundanese are. Since the fall of Soeharto it is not a secret Islam is gaining much influence in daily life, even to the level some of relatives are pressing the Sunda Wiwitan followers to adopt Islam with the risk of being reported, persecuted, whatever! Sunda Wiwitan was not a problem during Orba, why is it now? This touches the very subject on this thread. The now shamed governor of North Sumatera was raging against atheism but freedom of thought is under threat. And we’re not even discussing the racist attitudes of the Javanese and even my own “suku bangsa” against Papuans, Chinese etc.
One can discuss about what atheism actually menas and Patrick’s perfect catholic dogma but at the end of the day that’s all irrelevant if freedom of thought is under threat.
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stevo,
Yes you “could” just as anyone “could”. Read it again and note the world “can” in there. Then try and relax a bit.
stevo, my English is not native but good enough to see you’re not sincere here. Don’t hold your breath and better call me an outright idiot. Now, do you still want to have constructive and interesting discussions or shall we stop here?
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The whole freedom of thought (and the practise of faith) is a big one. If we do not have that freedom, we could not even have this discussion.
If you ban dissent then you ban other religions and us atheists too. This is a point lost on some believers, who think opposing atheists defends faith. It does not defend faith if the freedom of expression is removed.
Atheists are not the biggest threat to theists. The biggest threats are from other opposing religions, and mostly within the same group. Eg: Catholic/ Protestant, Sunni/Shia and so on.
My friend Patrick may want to ponder that for a while 🙂
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Don’t hold your breath and better call me an outright idiot.
You started off saying I was too insulting, then accuse me of holding back my true thoughts.
I say what I think, both online and in real life.
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As for agnostic, I tend to agree with man who said it is the least brave position of all, the religious position of sitting on the fence.
What’s wrong with sitting on the fence if you don’t consider yourself to have the arguments to make an informed choice and take sides? Does one have to come down from the fence and join the fight just because there’s a fight and you must prove the world how brave you are?
I have told before that this forum has seen better days. Sadly it has been degraded to an arena for egos to clash and constantly prove themselves by bashing an opponent rather than having a meaningful discussion. What a waste. My advice, if you become overwhelmed by antipathy and disgust for somebody, take a sabatical and come back in a few months when the air is clear or stay away altogether. Give way to your opponent; thus will you gain the crown of victory (Ovidius). I’ve learned this the hard way.
Meanwhile, in order not to bore the shit out of the rest of us, I propose that a special thread in this forum be created for those who cannot refrain from name-calling and where they can put each other down ad libitum. -
Stevo,
You warned me of the specific nature of this site in terms of insults. Little I know you were the first to explore and/or suggest I am an idiot after I made a honest post about the person I am. Then you try to repair the damage by saying you were referring to anybody. Sorry, you cannot fool me. Then it’s indeed better not to hold your breath.
then accuse me of holding back my true thoughts
So you do think I’m an idiot, regardless what I write here. 🙂 Why is that?
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Patrick says:
Kripic – The greatest experiment in democracy took place in the Western Hemisphere. The country that undertook this brave new concept (with the exception of ancient Athens) is the United States of America and was founded on the principle that all men are created equal and with certain rights including freedom of speech, religion, assembly and the pursuit of happiness. This whole new idea of govenence was established by men from each of the 13 colonies and the majority were Protestant men of faith with 25% of them having either seminary or bible degree and 100% declaring membership in some church. This idea that men could elect their leaders and would have rights unknown in any other country on earth and including the right to worship God freely soon inspired other peoples toward democracy around the globe. If atheists feel they are the ones who would have us believe they invented free thought then they are obviously mistaken but they are the beneficiaries of men of faith who recognized that God Almighty’s greatest gift to man was the right to freely make their own choices.
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ET,
You said something interesting. I am new to this site and I experienced immediately, well not an insult but an attempt to direct the discussion into a certain direction where it could easily turn into a slugfest. This degradation can be pinpointed to an over-presence of a limited group of people with big ego’s? I have seen this on way too many sites. Such a shame. If this is the case I won’t be staying long here. I just want to know why stevo thinks I’m an idiot and then I’ll leave.
I’m sorry to hear things were better than they are now. I have known about Indonesia Matters but never bothered participating until recently.
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