Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Simply stunning thinking on your part old chap as of course why didn’t the peoples of Timor and Papua think of that and what about the Balinese?
Oh Patrick, you do amaze me with your willful disregard of context. Bali, Papua and even Timor (as shameful as that episode was) were part of the the colonial arbitrary borders of the nation. Not even in anyone wildest dreams could they be considered to a have a modern or even semi capable military.
Are you really suggesting the annexation of East Timor, Papua required 1000th of the strategic, diplomatic and military capability that an annexation of the Philippines would require.
Sorry Paddy, it increasing sounds that this is just a another extreme manifestation of the evil Muslim world domination plan so loved by the religious hard right and we should all run for the hills.
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Patrick says:
@Oigal – Do you ever read the newspapers? The Americans, Chinese, Russians, British, Germans etc., are tripping over themselves to sell weapons to the Indonesians. Why just the other day the USA announced it was giving, not selling, I believe, approximately 28 F16 Jet Fighters. However, they did agree to sell the advanced rockets that go along with these flying death machines. The F 16s were described as second hand surplus,almost sounds harmless, and in a similar way that the Germans described their Leopold tanks that they sold recently to Indonesia. Funny how the world is cozying up to Indonesia in their haste to re-arm and with their past human rights issues and records pushed aside.
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Oooh…..28 planes and 100 tanks..
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kripik says:
Interesting discussion you guys have here but how does this relate in any way to the topic of this thread which personally find much more interesting as Indonesia are going down the drain with becoming increasingly intolerant towards different views. To relate somehow to your discussion, it’s looking like a commie country nowadays. I mean what’s next, reeducation camps for Ahmadis and Shia Muslims?
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Oigal you said ” ….28 planes and 100 tanks”
Sorry been sleeping for a week or so after reading your posts here at IM. Is that the total amount of jets and armored vehicles or do you think the bIndonesian military has more and plans for even more?
Ok back to sleep….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
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Ah so in the absence of substance we go for abuse. No worries Patrick, let me know when you have any serious facts or analyst of the region that considers Indonesia a potential military expansionist power in the region. Until then we consider your theories just an Islamic variation of reds under the bed.
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K, hardly any risk that Indonesia will is about to turn communist. Contrary to Patricks fears of some sort of Islamic crusade, a more likely future in an implosion as ‘democracy’ fails to deliver even the most basic aspirations to an ever more aware populace. This of of course, will mean even more regional instability with refugees and ever more humanitian issues.
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Oigal are you trying to discredit me on one of my initial scenario for a hostile future Indonesia while simultaneously trying to take credit for another? Gasp! That’s plagiarism!
My proof Oigal said on Aug 31;
“Contrary to Patrick’s fears of some sort of Islamic crusade,
a more likely future in an implosion as ‘democracy’ fails to deliver even the most basic aspirations to an ever more aware populace.”Below I posted on August 24
“This is all conjecture on my part of course but now we have a scenario where lack of fossil fuels starts to halt the biggest economy in ASEAN. We have already witnessed in recent months the reaction of the Indonesian public when fuel prices were going off subsidy and the counter-reaction of the government to reverse itself. What will it be like when inflation brought on by rising fuel prices becomes a permanent part of life in a country of 240 million plus people? The clock is indeed ticking on Indonesia so the question is who will lead the country and in what direction?” -
@Oigal – to be fair to you it was sometime ago that I posted that comment so I can hardly expect you to know everything that I write here on this topic. However, I hope that you learned a lesson that just because I believe in God doesn’t mean I don’t understand how politics and economics can drive the decision processes of nations. Please don’t work such long hours always and take it a bit lighter on the Jameson’s. I think when I visit Indonesia you and I should have a drink together. What do you say? Peace! 🙂
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The central tenet of your conjecture is Indonesia is arming up and posing a significant risk to the nations of the region as an expansionist miltary power which frankly is more based on religious paranoia than anything else. Your last post is at best disingenious at worst a fairly complete back down of your orginal position.
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Ha ha ha! Oigal,you are a hoot. On a serious note, make no mistake about this as it is God that makes nations rise and fall but it is men who choose their paths. Yes, Indonesia is arming up just read the newspapers. Will Indonesia pose a serious threat in the future to it’s neighbors? That depends on the direction of the country as taken by the political and militaristic powers ruling at the time. Hope that clarifies my point 🙂
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Oigal,
Not so much a threat to neighbours, far more alarming is the rise of intolerance in Indonesia.
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@Kripic – yes the rise of intolerance in Indonesia is on the rise. This is worrisome and if we look at Germany and the rise of fascism there then. we know religious and ethnic intolerance preceded military aggression upon its neighbors. The point being that Indonesia needs to be monitored closely as it moves into a period of prosperity and hopefully a peaceful future. Pray for Indonesia.
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Indeed, I agree with you Kripik. Patrick, ok have it your way, however I can assure you no country in the region is seriously concerned about an Indonesian invasion or Islamic crusade.
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@Oigal – I know but that’s what makes the prediction so interesting. Anyway sleep peacefully mate 🙂
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Interesting to see, Secretary of State of the United States, Hillary Clinton, in Jakarta encouraging Indonesia to continue to be assertive in its efforts to have one voice for ASEAN and in response to Chinese aggression in the South China Sea. I can imagine just the thought of a future Indonesia getting too close to China must keep the Washington career diplomats up at night. I would think that same thought would keep its ASEAN neighbors from sleeping easily as well. It makes sense from both a USA and ASEAN prospective to have a unified voice and with Indonesia taking the leadership role. Hopefully, the next president of Indonesia will carry forward that same policy.
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CNN News is reporting his evening that the official platform of the Democratic Party (USA) for the first time in its history, does not mention God anywhere. In contrast the Republican Party mentions God about a dozen times in its official platform. What this means for the USA? The party of President Obama has moved permanently into a leftist position and will not likely move back to a centrist stance, as the Democrats were forced to do, during the second term of President Clinton. The Obama’s administration, if given a second term,will probably continue its attacks against freedom of religion as guaranteed in the USA Constitution.
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weng weng says:
Patrick
Are you serious? Actually the only hope to see that intolerance frenzy stop would be Indonesia getting closer to China. Be sure the killing of shia and ahmaddiya doesn’t disturb hillary sleep as she is promoting takfiri wahhabi as a model everywhere on earth. No doubt if a next Indonesia president would get closer to china the fpi thugs would suddenly turn into freedom fighters on Cnn -
stevo says:
the fpi thugs would suddenly turn into freedom fighters on Cnn
It would certainly fit with CNN’s reporting on the “Arab Spring”. The real forces behind these uprisings are now revealed to be hard line Islamic fundamentalists lusting for power. The focus of the mass media is not on reporting events, but on telling us what to think about those events. It saddens me to see how many actually believe what is clearly bias reporting.
Patrick, If a political party does not mention religion it is not an attack against freedom of religion. What on earth are you thinking man! You are more likely to see religious freedom curtailed by those parties that do run on a platform of religion. Ponder for a moment a party running on a fundamentalist religious platform that was NOT Christian based. Would you anticipate yourself gaining, or losing, religious freedom?
I am no expert on US constitutional law, but I suggest the intent is to provide freedom from religion, not freedom of religion. The Republican party are not helping themselves by ramming their religion down the the throats of others. They are quite happy to condone killing Muslims for much the same thing as they themselves are doing.
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The media is reporting that the Democrats have just reversed their days old platform that excluded any references to God. It seems the Democrats are bowing to pressure from the American public who overwhelmingly love God. Afterall the motto of the United States is “In God We Trust”.
@Stevo – “It would certainly fit with CNN’s reporting on the Arab Spring…”
Good observation about the main stream media reporting that Americans suffer on a nightly basis. Actually early on during the Arab Spring, Sean Hannity of Fox News, among others, asked the question of exactly who were the Obama administration supporting and backing in Eygpt, Libya etc.?
Sorry to disappoint you Stevo but the American Constitution safeguards freedom of religion, though with the atheistic movement we have had in the Federal Courts, you would think it was freedom from religion.
The Jakrta Globe just posted the absolute worst editorial I have ever read. It was the most sanctimonious, self righteous, childish, garble I have read in quite some time. The editorial entitled “Abusing Religion” reasoned that all religions pretty much teach the same thing and that who really knew what was on the other side of the veil seperating life and death? It talked about how “in today’s world that we like to think that we have moved past senseless slaughter in the name of an invisible God.” I was astonished by the “thinly veiled” attempt to once again blame organized religion on the woes of the country. Interesting enough the Globe people, either purposely or through shear neglect, never mentioned atrocities committed in godless societies like Nazi Germany, the former USSR, China and North Korea. Whose name were those atrocities committed? To be fair the editorial was attempting to address the recent slaughter committed against the Shiites in Madura. Religion was the culprit as the globe said it was easily used to whip crowds into a wild frenzi with violence being the natural outcome. After reading that statement it occurred to me the French Revolution didn’t invoke the name of God to massively slaughter anyone they deemed accusable of crimes against the state. Hitler didn’t rally the German people behind Christ when he called for them to create chaos and terror in the Streets against their Jewish neighbors. Chairman Mao’s great cultural revolution that resulted in the torture and slaughter of millions of fellow Chinese didn’t have any religious ties did it? I could go on and on about such matters but I think I have demonstrated my point so shame on the Jakarta Globe.
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BrotherMouzone says:
@ Patrick
“It was the most sanctimonious, self righteous, childish, garble I have read in quite some time. The editorial entitled “Abusing Religion” reasoned that all religions pretty much teach the same thing and that who really knew what was on the other side of the veil seperating life and death? It talked about how “in today’s world that we like to think that we have moved past senseless slaughter in the name of an invisible God.”
Well it’s true, all the holy books do teach pretty much the same thing, specifically;
1. There’s an invisible dude in the sky.
2. This dude can only be communicated to through our particular religion. If you try to communicate with him through another religion, he will stick his fingers in his ears and go “Lalalalalalalalala”.
3. Non-believers are filthy and destined for hell and should be treated as such.
4. If you perform this series of prayers/dance movements/rites we made up, you will be more likely to go to heaven.
5. Don’t kill each other, unless you are one of the hundreds of exceptions in our holy book.
6. Feel free to treat women badly.
7. STOP PLAYING WITH YOURSELF!Simple really.
@ Weng weng
Actually the only hope to see that intolerance frenzy stop would be Indonesia getting closer to China.
Indonesia has its problems, but I’d say we are still a few massacres away from asking China for tolerance lessons.
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It makes little difference whether you interpret it as freedom from, or of, religion as you arrive at the same point. In order to have one you must also have the other. It is debateable if the US has either.
You are looking at this from a purely Christian perspective, but not all Americans are Christian. By having Christianity enshrined in government you are imposing it on those who may not share those beliefs. For example US Hindus are not free of, or from, your religion. Even within Christianity there is much variation in beliefs and teachings. The National moto “In God We Trust” does not speak for millions of US citizens and imposes a view they do not have. This can hardly be considered freedom.
All of this can be avoided by government keeping out of the religion business altogether. Then people can practise their faith according to their own beliefs. I think this is the real intent of the constitution.
The atrocities of the USSR, Mao, North Korea ect were not done in the name of atheism. They were done in the name of Socialism. I have previously drawn parallels between the beliefs of hard line Socialists and Theists. Both believe things that are demonstrably false and do not base their ideas on evidence. They are also notoriously intolerant and put preservation of their ideas ahead of outcomes for real people. This is also evident in today’s self-described liberal progressive types, who are in fact neither liberal or progressive.
The point you could make is that people of all faiths do bad things (and yes even atheists)
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@Stevo
The atrocities of the USSR, Mao, North Korea ect were not done in the name of atheism. They were done in the name of Socialism. I have previously drawn parallels between the beliefs of hard line Socialists and Theists.
This. Communism was, to all intents and purposes, a religion;
Iconography – check
Deification of the leader – check
Imprisonment and death of those who dared to question – check
Irrational belief despite vast amounts of evidence to the contrary – checkLook at North Korea. It’s essentially a theocracy, with infallible Kim as God. And if you disagree, you are damned; not to an imaginary hell, but to a living one.
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Agreed BrotherMouzone. I could draw many other parallels. Religious folk are not alone in following cults and believing strange things. It is for that reason I am tolerant and respectful of religion in my day to day life. They are only doing what is a very human thing to do.
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@Bro M – really you came up with only 7 rules for an instant religion all by yourself? How profound and applicable to all religions?Not bad really as you are quite correct, hell your always correct, so maybe we should change your name to Bro A as in autocorrect 🙂
1. There is no big invisible dude in the sky.
2. We are masters of our own destiny and dissenting view points contrary to our right way of thinking will be met with a chorus of I am right and your wrong, so there!
3. All believers are filthy ignorant swine and are republicans.
4. Through ceaseless rallies supporting our atheistic way of life and chanting daily slogans you will be creating your own happiness, and collective happiness for the masses. In the west just show up for political rallies that burn bras, say nice things about gays,support the mass murder of innocent babies, and programs, programs and more free handouts to appease the masses. Think the same, look the same, be the same or else you will be harassed till you do!
5. Don’t kill each other but the state retains that right and may apply that clause whenever it deems it necessary to stamp out freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to assembly and protest a tyrannical government and policies, or really anytime it suits the
agenda of our fearless leaders.
6. Feel free to lie to woman that her body belongs to her alone and that an unborn baby’s
right to live or die his her decision to make and that a father has no right of say in the matter. Tell women that their paramount duty is to their own personal happiness at the exclusion of all else. You want to work or go to school then no problem as that what day care is about as others can raise your child for you. If you cannot afford the cost of day care then the state will provide that for you as our workers will gladly pay more taxes to over burden our economy even further.
7. Stop playing with yourself and worse stop jerking everyone else off as well,Bro M.__________________
I was talking to a relative on the telephone concerning Hillary’s trip to Asia. She laughed and pointed out that Hillary took the trip at this time to avoid having to be at the Democratic National Conventuon and being too closely associated with Barack Obama. Interesting take and quite the coincidence…..just saying …
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Really good article in the recent edition of the Jakarta Globe entitled,” July 13, 2012 may prove to be the date when China came of age as a genuine Global Superpower”. However, nothing new added to what we have already been discussing here on Indonesia Matters for weeks. We were definitely ahead of be curve and cudos to David as having the most comprehensive web site on progressive political thought in SE Asia. iM is different and we do have our characters but yet I defy you to find a better site on the web for discussing the past, present and future of Indonesia. Maybe we should turn IM into a think tank of sorts and apply for government grants? Mmmmmmm…… USAID here we come ….. Ha ha ha!
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Through ceaseless rallies supporting our atheistic way of life and chanting daily
How many Churches are there in the US Patrick and how often do they meet?
Now tell me how many Atheist meeting places there are and tell me how often they meet?
Its a bit much for a Catholic to be accusing atheists of rallying and chanting too much. Even other Christians regard Catholics as being way over the top in ceremonies and chanting.
Please explain what an “atheistic way of life” is. You will probably ignore that question because it’s impossible to answer, as atheism is not a belief system. Your priest probably taught you that stuff, so you may need to suggest he references a few verses on lying and false witness etc.
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@Stevo – Are you serious? We just has a whole week of atheists meetings at e Democratic National Convention. One would have thought that if you weren’t there that you would have been glued to your chair wishing you were among your peepsa, Ha ha ha ha!
Our Protestamt brothers and sisters do good work but each denomination has some flaws unfortunately in their theologies whereas Catholic Dogma is perfect in its teachings. If you don’t believe me just ask the pope 🙂
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Patrick, I’d like to agree with you, but then we’d both be wrong.
I think it is about time that non-believers stood up and stopped tiptoeing around our disagreements with the beliefs of mainstream religions. The problem with liberals (and I consider myself to be one) is that we are sometimes too sensitive to the, often destructive, beliefs of others. Throughout history, when religion has had the upper hand, the clergy have had no qualms about dealing harshly with those who dared disagree. So when a Catholic claims (incorrectly) to be oppressed by atheists and liberals, forgive me for not being impressed.
How lucky to be “oppressed” by a group that doesn’t burn you at the stake, drown you, torture you, or imprison you for your faith. A group that largely supports your right to practice your faith (so long as you do not impinge on other peoples’ rights). When the boot was on the other foot, theists failed to show such compassion.
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@Bro M – “How lucky to be “0ppressed” by a group that doesn’t burn you at the stake…”
Ya in your country they were much more kind as they stuffed everyone they could, mostly Jews, but some Catholics sprinkled among them, into ovens and gas showers. That was after, they terrorized them for weeks and months at end, marched them into slave camps, and fed them next to nothing. This is only the German experiment into godlessness as we have the Russian, Chinese, North Korean, Vietnamese, and others. I remember patrolling along the East German border (i was in West Germany) and witnessing the maze of concrete barriers, barbed wire fencing, soldiers, dogs, and various weapons. These were not to keep us out so much as to force their own people to stay.However, even those measures couldn’t suppress the human spirit to live free as so many of their citizen risked death to try to make it to our side of the border. Sorry Bro M, but so far history has shown godless societies to be the most brutal, horrific and dismal and oppressive entities ever known in human history.
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Oh come on Oigal, your an Aussie and you should know your country has been trying to run with the “Big Dog” for quite some time now. The trouble being a little dog in the pack is that you are going to be dominated. However, in exchange for all that protection and security means your going to pissed on and mounted from time to time (dominance thing).