Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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🙂
Many years ago I had a girlfriend for about half a year, back in my hometown Rotterdam…. She was very much into reiki and I went to many parties with her, parties where people would be hugging trees giving those trees reiki, giving each other reiki, I also went with her to Osho (Bhagwan, remember him?) parties, they were fun parties, I liked the dancing, didn’t much like sitting around with a few hundred people listening to Bhagwan cassettes where everybody would laugh at the prescribed times, it just wasn’t my scene, I found it all rather silly….
This girlfriend, she was very pretty but very fxcked up, turned out she was raped over a long period of time in her early youth, from age 6 to age 8 or something…. So one day, after we broke up again she called me, ‘wanna go to Belgium to a macro-biotic week with me?’, Sure babe, and I found myself in the beautiful city of Antwerpen in a huge castle….
There you could take many courses, Chinese astrology, African dancing, I Ching, Macro-biotic cooking, Aikido (that was the one I liked I’ve got a jiu jitsu back ground and I was working as a bouncer at the time). Her real reason for going there was a week long course, something called Bio-Energetics, I did that shit for a whole week, every morning for 4 hours. Found myself in a group of some 25 people and there where three people giving this course. At the first day you had to sign a form that said you weren’t going to prosecute if nasty stuff would happen. They would make you do breathing exercises, body movements, all supposed to make all the bad shit in your life come out, there where buckets all over the place for vomiting and spitting. It would become too long a post if I would describe all the stuff I saw happening there, it was CRAZY…..
I did my best, I hit those pillows as hard as I could, did all those exercises but at the end of the week I was the only one in that class who didn’t have a breakdown, who didn’t start running around screaming, vomiting, convulsing…. Last day we all sat there huddled together and the “teach” said, this is the hot chair, who wants to go first?
Well, in those last few days they stopped me from doing most exercises and made me a “helper”, basically restraining people who would go bonkers and I thought, ok, I’m the only one that hasn’t gone mad I’ll take that chair. Sat down and then people would have to give you compliments, heard all the “you’ve got such beautiful blue eyes” stuff it was just compliments…. Some of the people after me, man, they went through the roof on that chair…..
I thought the whole thing was crazy, to let people go through such heavy shit for a week and then just let them go out there by themselves again, without support or anything….
What I’m trying to say is, I find a lot of this New Age stuff as bad, actually often even much worse then the vested religions, basically I think a lot of people in the West are quiet lost now that Christianity is on the way out (as Nietzsche said would happen) and a lot of them are being preyed upon by these tricksters…. My sister is doing the website for this Scottish guy, I forget his name, Derrik something, he’s “talking to the death”, attracting huge crowds that pay big money to get into his venues. I personally think somebody like David Icke is in the same kind of business, just another angle….
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stevo says:
What I’m trying to say is, I find a lot of this New Age stuff as bad, actually often even much worse then the vested religions, basically I think a lot of people in the West are quiet lost now that Christianity is on the way out (as Nietzsche said would happen) and a lot of them are being preyed upon by these tricksters….
I agree with that observation. I maintain that God does not exist, but I have to concede that the human desire to create a God is real for many folk.
I am not sure what the way forward is for humanity. The answer is unlikely to come from the new age movement. To be honest, I would actually feel bad undermining the faith of some poor and dispossessed people. For them, the promise of a better life ahead may be all they can look forward to. I find that sad.
It also carries a risk. By believing that matters are in the hands of God, people may not be inclined to take positive steps to improve their situation now. It also leaves people open to exploitation from those who seek power (rather than spiritual enlightenment) through the unity of faith. It is this hijacking of religion that is responsible for much of the wrongs committed by theists.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the “enlightened seekers of knowledge” in Antwerpen. I wish one of them would turn up on IM so we could give Patrick a break 😉
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Patrick says:
I read something in the Jakarta Globe recently that caused me to raise my eyebrow. It was from a businessman who described Indonesia as a “sleeping giant finally awoken after centuries of being asleep”. He went on to describe how Indonesia now had more confidence and walked with swagger etc. This alarmed me because a Brazilian seer of Marian apparitions, Pedro Regis, described Indonesia in almost those exact words. But he also said Indonesia would cause great harm to its neighbors as it also rises as a military power. Perhaps, some people will immediately dismiss this as shear nonsense but this particular seer has been uncannily accurate with his predictions in the past and that included the Haitian earthquake of a few years back. The Marian apparitions, a world wide phenomena, will be my final argument concerning the existence of God and in particular it’s meaning to Indonesia.
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BrotherMouzone says:
So, this thread has been quiet for a little while and I wanted to get Patrick’s opinion on something.
@ Patrick, would you say that this image sums up the Catholic church’s stance on proof and scientific evidence?
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Attached
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Hey BM, 🙂 I think poor old Patrick plumbed the depths when he started quoting Marian apparitions as the final proof for God.
Particularly this bit
Indonesia would cause great harm to its neighbors as it also rises as a military power
You can say a lot of things about Indonesia but let’s be honest unless you happen to be some poor Papua or Tim Tim Villager not a great deal to fear from the Indonesian Military nor could it reasonably be assumed that Indonesia will be renown as a great Military Power any time soon.
Not sure but think it would be a safe bet to say Indonesian citizens have been more at risk from the Indonesian Military than anybody else.
Quick Quiz, List in order 1 to 5 which nations are more likely to pose a Military crisis in Asia;
USA, China, Pakistan, North Korea, Indonesia. Well 1 to 4 will vary according to your personal bias but is there anyone who would change Indonesia’s position as 5th in the poll? -
@ Oigal – I imagine China and the rest of the region are quaking in their boots at the thought of awakening Indonesia’s sleeping military dragon.
I love these prophets – we only ever hear about their premonitions after the event.
Patrick’s gone, bring back ROSS!
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My pundits say its nearly impossible that Indonesia will rise a regional military power any time soon but I would argue that it is entirely possible. Any student of 20th century history could tell you just in that time period other nations have risen to military powers in only a few years. Examples of this would include Nazi Germany rising from the ashes of the Weimar Republic to becoming the dominant military might of Europe. Modern Israel defeated all its neighbors in the 1967 six day war to become the dominant regional power despite having been founded less than 20 years earlier. Lastly, let us not forget that China was not taken seriously as a military power until after World War II and even then it was considered more of a regional power than the global colossus it’s since become after becoming the dominant manufacturing nation of the world. If we look at Indonesia we can see all the ingredients are present for it to rise, not only as an industrial giant, but as a military power player in Southeast Asia. It has the natural resources, the fourth largest population on earth, a huge military presence within its borders and ambitions to enter conflicts as a peacekeeping nation representing the Muslim World as the most populous Islamic nation on Earth. If you look at some recent events in the past few weeks Indonesia has announced that it has purchased military jets from Brazil, was attempting to purchase Leopold tanks from the Netherlands and Germany, submarines from various countries and with an appetite and gusto to buy arms in quantities that would suggest that it’s not intended only for domestic use or strictly defensive in nature. The other troubling aspect of Indonesia is the relatively recent rise of radical Islamic groups such as FPI who are calling for Islamic armies, including Indonesia, to invade Mynamar. If this happened it’s relatively easy to see how neighboring countries such as Thailand and Malaysia could easily become embroiled in such a conflict.
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Ok… BM I forget the name but isn’t there a new internet law ‘the first person to use the term NAZI in an internet debate loses”
If we look at Indonesia we can see all the ingredients are present for it to rise, not only as an industrial giant, but as a military power player in Southeast Asia
Ah nope, a massively under funded, under trained and under resourced military with almost an entirely internal focus.
ambitions to enter conflicts as a peacekeeping nation representing the Muslim World
Ah nope, a few token efforts entirely funded by external parties (UN mostly) and certainly more in tune with nationalism than Islamism.
was attempting to purchase Leopold tanks from the Netherlands and Germany
Ah Nope, They are talking about buy one hundred second hand tanks to try and replace what passes for 40 year old armour that currently exists. Let’s see that works out at one tank for every 22 million people, hardly “buying arms with gusto”. Of course, Australia bought around 100 Leopard tanks in the 70s just as some perspective.
Submarines, ships? Indonesian could literally buy hundreds and still be unable to protect her shores and fishing grounds let alone mount an offensive. It is an Island/s nation after all.
So tell me, which nation do you think Indonesia is planning on attacking with 100 tanks, no landing craft and many 5 submarines?
relatively recent rise of radical Islamic groups such as FPI who are calling for Islamic armies, including Indonesia, to invade Mynamar
Actually hardly recent, Islamic radicals have always been present in Indonesian although somewhat suppressed (or used) during the new order. Calls by the FPI and others to March on Burma, should be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, the vast majority of the Indonesian population (despite what you may read on the more insane blogs) would be happy to chip in for the airfare but only with the promise they never came back.
The FPI and their ilk are noisy, loud, cowardly but hardly representative of the people as a whole. If anything rather than a rise in Radical Islam they represent a failure of the democratic state to control any number of thugs and gangs.
So Patrick, you are (not surprisingly) way off beam here.
Oh and when did Burma go from being repugnant to threatened?
Indonesia remains one of the least concerns to stability in SE Asia.
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Oh.. a key point..The people who control the money in Indonesia are neither communists nor Islamist. So unless its a mall franchise you are unlikely to be invaded by Indonesia and the Military itself is too busy enriching itself to worry about such things.
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@Oigal – yes dear let us hope you are right and I am wrong and the “Sleeping Giant” never awakens. But if it does think of all the cultural opportunities and gastronomic delights that will be coming your way Oigal. Not to mention Foster’s being replaced by Bintang. However, I think all that mall space down under could prove too great a temptation.
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@Oigal – you said “Oh the people who control the money…” Yes, I will agree for now you are correct about the people who control the money in Indonesia. However, it cannot be ignored that Indonesia is on a arms spending spree since Defense Minister Yusgiantoro announced that very point to the press earlier this year. The defense budget for Indonesia will be just above 1% GNP for the first time in Indonesia’s history and future projections call for 1.5% by 2015. This would allocate approximately 15 billion USD toward the military. This projection means that Indonesia will soon become the regions biggest military spender
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@ Paddy
“This projection means that Indonesia will soon become the regions (sic) biggest military spender”
I assume that you consider neither China nor India to be part of the region? Or Singapore, or Australia, or South Korea…
So if you are refining “The Region” down to just ASEAN countries to the exclusion of Singapore then, correct! Indonesia might well become the biggest Military spender. Perhaps because, errr… Indonesia is the biggest economy in ASEAN? Having a military spend of under 1% of GDP is extremely rare, especially in a nation with so many border disputes.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
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Well Bro M, I guess I am back 😀
The main reason Indonesia has been under 1% of GNP is that the country up until recent times was poor and therefore unable to afford the weaponary to modernize its military.But as any nouveau riche person can tell you, new found wealth needs to be flaunted, and Defence Minister Yusgiantoro is buying, buying and buying!
No I don’t consider a region to be the entire continent of Asia As usual, I have to spend a few moments supplementing that first class education that you received, but Asia stretches from the Middle East to Japan and all the way past China and Mongolia into Russia so pray tell how could we call half the land mass of the world a region? As far as Singapore is concerned I think the Indonesian military is smart enough to avoid the best trained and equipped military in the region and where the USA Navy has a size able number of ships.
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Seriously Patrick, whilst Indonesia may create a number of issues (same as any other country) in the region, it would be extremely unlikely to be one of an expansionist military kind (excluding the usual chest beating border nonsense). I wonder where you are getting this from? Is it your opinion or is this really the kind of uninformed nonsense doing the rounds in the Tea Party rooms of the USA?
Think of all the cultural opportunities and gastronomic delights that will be coming your way Oigal. Not to mention Foster’s being replaced by Bintang.
As a very long time resident of Indonesia, I already have those and Bintang is a very good beer, but must be cold, it’s a shocker luke warm. Has the USA worked out how to make a beer yet? I would also strongly recommend some Padang Food as well, a bit spicy but certainly a gastronomic delight. I confess I am not sure of your point as if you were talking cultural and gastronomic delights, is there anyone who would recommend the USA over Indonesia to a tourist?
However, it cannot be ignored that Indonesia is on a arms spending spree since Defense Minister Yusgiantoro announced that very point to the press earlier this year.
Actually yes it can be ignored, most Indonesians and Indonesia watchers learn a long time ago to ignore speeches and announcements and focus on results as there is normally a huge chasm between the two. NATO is a common term used here “No Action, Talk Only”
future projections call for 1.5% by 2015
Besides the fact that unless they cut the oil subsidy that spending is simply not possible. 1.5% is essentially still well below other nations in the region as a % of GDP. Again for some perspective, Australia has cut defence spending to 1.56 % in 2012/13 which is the lowest level since 1938. Personally I think Australia’s cuts are pretty close to criminal neglect by the current government but it does make a mockery of the claim that Indonesia’s attempting to raise spending to 1.5% is the beginning of a Military Monster. Most analysts believe Indonesia should be ramping up its naval forces considerably as currently it parasitically depends on other nations to provide coastal watch and even basic sea and rescue tasks in its own territorial waters.
I think all that mall space down under could prove too great a temptation.
Oh my, not that old chestnut “ah run for the hills, the Indonesians are going to invade Australia” Outside of the yellow peril hold outs, no serious analyst even considers that a even a remote possibility for a plethora of strategic and cultural reasons. Not the least they are not interested anymore than Australia is. Unlike say China, you pointed out yourself Indonesia has a wealth of natural resources so what would be the point?
Let’s be frank, there is little logic behind what is being said here beyond the now standard irrational overlay of “Evil Muslims” on any regional situation. No different to the “Evil Infidels” overlay used by fringe groups on the other side. Whilst an inept approach to law and order has allowed various fringe extremists to garner more headlines than they deserve, the reality is they are fringe groups and shall always remain so.
If you want to worry yourself to sleep at night about Indonesia perhaps a more realistic scenario is the current disjointed robber baron democracy (similar to the old West but without the time to put things right) could perhaps lead to a situation with the state can no functionally provide even the basics to the vast majority of the population with resultant floods of refugees and the need for billions in external aid. Personally I think that is 50/50 chance over the next decade or so but even then that puts me on the more paranoid side of most (excluding the loonycon)
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Oh Oigal – your so cute when your angry. Remember this is all conjecture on our part so calm down. However, let’s admit something and that there is always a possibility that a charismatic leader could emerge and lead Indonesia down a road it never intended to take. Thanks for the laugh though as you are always a hoot!
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Wow Patrick, once you get into a hole you really keep digging don’t you? Most people tend to group Asia in economic or geographical regions as it a bit silly to assume the Mongolia is going to have much influence on say New Zealand. But hey, your call so by your definition you are losing sleep over the potential Military of Indonesia over mmm North Korea, China, South Korea, Russia?
Where do you get this stuff from?
As far as Singapore is concerned I think the Indonesian military is smart enough to avoid the best trained and equipped military in the region
Eer, not by a long shot and miniscule in number and primarily two year conscripts which hardly equates “best trained” . They are professional as in most things Singapore does but essentially token.
“Smart enough to avoid” ??? On the way to where???
Let’s see, do I have this right? Indonesia is going to avoid the mighty Singaporeans to travel around and attack the helpless Australians, Malaysians, the Koreas perhaps?
Defence Minister Yusgiantoro is buying, buying and buying!
Really??? What exactly is he buying? A proposal to purchase 100, second hand tanks barley enough to maintain 2 squadrons in the field even with a (non existent) first class logistic system and no means to transport them.
A few warplanes to replace a currently mostly non flying air force.
Now to bring us back to reality, if you are looking for countries that have the potential for major conflict in the REGION. I could name any five and Indonesia would not figure in the top three. Cambodia and Thailand, China and…well anybody..Koreas..etc Vietnam and well any neighbour..Japan, Russia, China.
From that perspective Indonesia is a rock of stability.
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First, what are you talking about? Have you been drinking? Anyway, my whole point to Bro M was that Asia is way too vast to lump all the nations into a region. So exactly what point are you trying to convey?
Now concerning Singapore’s military this is the best trained and technology sophisticated armed force in the region. They have modeled their forces and have been trained by the Israelis and often do joint military exercises with the Taiwanese so they are extremely capable.
The prediction that Indonesia could emerge as a serious military threat has been on the table for decades and particularly in Australia. Perhaps, until recent times, this was a laughable concept given Indonesia’s infrastructure, economy, poor overall military training and equipment. However, things have changed drastically and once again Indonesia will have to be regularly assessed in terms of readiness and willingness to use their new found strengths.
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First, what are you talking about?
Indeed, that is the question being asked with much mirth and Patrick, more to the point where are you getting this nonsense from :-).
my whole point to Bro M was that Asia is way
too vast to lump all the nations into a region
followed by
Singapore’s military this is the best trained and technology sophisticated
armed force in the region
Laugh, so which is it Paddy, you sound a bit confused. Then again so is your whole concept, fairly obvious developed by someone not living in the region with Fox Channel as a anchor reference point.
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It is really sad and yes even pathetic to watch you, Oigal, stumble along with your incoherent babble. You also reduced yourself to Bro M’s level by the use of the name “Paddy” instead of my real name Patrick. This an obvious ethnic slur against Irish people and not surprising considering the source. Actually, it is you who demonstrate real ignorance considering how your home country feared war with Indonesia to the point,that it tried to dupe it ally, the United States, into a conflict with indonesia during the 1960s. Educate yourself little girl and don’t try to bring a pea shooter to a gun fight again!
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You are so cute when you are angry…. :-). You are being just a little paranoid Patrick there (ok, a lot). In fact, I am quite proud of my Irish convict background and thanks for asking. It’s funny watching you assume the wounded victim when in previous posts we accuse people of drinking, slurs on peoples education or calling them girls..Let’s try and stick to the facts shall we?
Now speaking of incoherent babble, On your seer led prophecy of an all conquering Indonesia running rampant through the “non”-region (excluding Singapore and its football crowd standing army apparently) any chance of actually addressing the inconsistencies?
Actually, it is you who demonstrate real ignorance considering how your home country feared war with Indonesia to the point,that it tried to dupe it ally, the United States, into a conflict with indonesia during the 1960s.
Let’s see, so now to justify your current theory of Indonesian Dragons, we are harking back to the dim dark days of Australia’s yellow peril theory. Of course, this was sadly a period when successive governments ran a incestuous couple of essentially unsustainable narratives combining the discredited communist domino theory and a xenophobic depiction of the yellow hordes coming to get you (granted the actual nationality of the yellow hordes changed to suit the narrative).
that it tried to dupe it ally, the United States, into a conflict with indonesia during the 1960s
That is just plain funny. Is that really what is taught in the US? The duplicity of the USA during the 60s/70s and its myriad attempts to subvert the governments of both friends and foes alike is well documented. Might I suggest some readings on the actions of the both the US Embassy and the CIA in Indonesia around 1965 or perhaps its nasty little games with Whitlam Government in Australia in the 70s (I should add personally I think the Whitlam government was the second worst in Australia’s history but..). I suggest you stay away from the political skull duggery in Vietnam as it will ruin some cherished notions of freedom and the pursuit of happiness.
Of course, none of the above has anything to do with Indonesia today and displays a desperation and sparsity of actual facts in support of the seer dream time.
Again I will make it simple for you, list any five countries in the region (realistic or the Patrick expanded version) that may conceivably create instability via Military aggression and see if you can lift Indonesia into the top three.
I find it curious that you are so focused on Indonesia, when every other pundit logically suggests China is the nation to watch as it more and more regularly bumps up against its neighbours. I suspect this has more to do in your case Patrick with trying to fit a religious overlay onto an existing bias. Would you be so concerned if Indonesia was not majority Islam?
Do keep it up though, it does help pass the time..
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Oigal you stated “Of course none of the above has anything to do with Indonesia today….”
I would argue that it has everything to do with Indonesia today as the United States has always recognized that Indonesia is the most significant country in Asia in terms of strategic location and much needed natural resources. Further, I would go as far as to say that Vietnam had everything to do with Indonesia and that the war fought had to so with insuring that Indonesia never fell into the hands of the communists as much as anything else given as a reason for being in Vietnam. President Eisenhower said in the early 1950s that the cheapest way to protect Indonesia was to support the French in their fight against the Vietnamese. He gave the French $400 million for the war effort. It must be noted that during the 1950s and through mid 1960s Indonesia had the largest communist party membership in the world outside of China and Russia. The communists membership in Indonesia was about 3.5 million and another 3 million youth members. I would argue this was seen by both the USA and Australia as a significant threat to the stability of both Indonesia and the World. At that point , President Sukarno became expendable and leading to a coup, supported by both the USA and Australia, that lead to Suharto coming to power and the great purge that followed. In the coming years, as Suharto secured his position and thus stabilizing Indonesia, the War in Vietnam became less necessary and thereby leading to the USA to eventually pull out of the war.
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discredited communist domino theory
Discredited by whom?
Numerous countries in Central Asia and Eastern Europe may find that remark hard to swallow. I will not bore everyone with the long list of those countries occupied by Soviet Russia or taken over politically.
A level of paranoia may have existed towards communist aggression, particularly in the USA, but this does not change the reality of the misery this flawed ideology has caused. Attempts to white-wash it ignore rather allot of recent history. It really is a remarkable statement to make.
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I confess not sure where to go with you last response Patrick, scatter shot as it is but I will have a crack.
as the United States has always recognized that Indonesia is the most significant country in Asia in terms of strategic location
Hardly, certainly not when compared to Japan, Korea, or China etc etc etc(although the US was keen to hold access to the deep sea submarine route between oceans). Ok, Indonesian was more significant than say Tonga in the US intellectual mind.
(The US)
war fought had to so with insuring that Indonesia never fell into the hands of the communists as much as anything else given as a reason for being in Vietnam
Huh?? So the US fought the war in Vietnam to stop Indonesia falling to the communists? Wow, talk about drawing a long bow on the domino theory. Personally, I would say the yet again the USA failed to read and understand history, was it ever likely that a filthy, corrupt and brutal Roman Catholic minority regime solely propped up by occupying forces was ever going to be successful? Sadly, you fail to mention the RC sleazy role in leading a nation to ruins.
President Sukarno became expendable and leading to a coup, supported by both the USA and Australia, that lead to Suharto coming to power and the great purge that followed.
Well you are correct there and a nice piece of duplicity nothing like arranging the fall of foreign leader and installation of a despot. By the way, hows that being working out in hindsight? You would thing some would learn from history but apparently not. Curiously and I have no argument that the communists would have conducted their own purge but how much new order blood still drips from US fingers.
In the coming years, as Suharto secured his position and thus stabilizing Indonesia,
Really? It could be argued that yet again unwanted US interference in a sovereign nations internal affairs resulted in a despot’s rise to power, the stifling of community political development and enable the theft of the wealth of nation by a morally corrupt few. Suffice to say, much of Indonesia’s current issues can be laid at the doorstep of a paranoid USA and the New Order is so ably supported. To be fair, its not just Indonesia in fact pretty much standard USA bull in a china shop diplomacy across the globe.
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@ Oigal – You are a legend in your own mind. Once again you have baffled all the experts as they had no clue that all the trade and commerce shipping that passes through the Straight of Malacca was not that important. Yes, you are so right as the Straight of Malacca should never been considered vital to anything and why the so called experts and strategist would identify as one of the four most important shipping areas in the world is beyond any reason. The 55,000 or so ships passing yearly seems so trivial and who cares that approximately 80% of the oil imported by Japan, Korea and Taiwan must transit through the Straight. You are so correct Oigal, that Japan, Korea and China must have just as important shipping lanes but where they are remains a mystery? However, I remain confident that your curious mind will someday solve that question as well.
Thank you as well Oigal, for pointing out to everyone how unimportant Indoesia’s abundance of raw materials are for the World. The archipelagos produces only 20% of the Liquified natural gas found in the World, and it is number two in the production of natural rubber and crude palm oil so the country must do better to make it more attractive in the strategic order of nations as according to Oigal. Ditto for the mining of tin as again it was only number 2 in the world rankings. Coal only gathered a bronze medal and gold was only the country’s largest revenue earner. Indonesia has other minerals in rather large quantities such as bauxite, magnesium, diamonds etc.and interesting enough produces 80% of the world’s supply of plywood and is an oil producer.
I think Stevo’s response to your dismissal of the domino theory sums it all up as “it’s a remarkable statement to make”. My guess is that two USA Presidents identifying Indonesia as a reason to stop the spread of communism into South Vietnam would be insufficient evidence for you to accept? But then again who am I to try to convince you otherwise as your wisdom, on such matters, knows no bounds. : )
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Mmmm Curious the person that bemoans being called Paddy yet again launches on a personal tirade, still not matter.
Ah, so we are talking shipping lanes now, you really do have an issue with Regions, Countries and now shipping lanes. Now despite that your original assertion that the USA that the United States has always recognized that Indonesia is the most significant country in Asia is just plain incorrect. Rightly or wrongly the USA has pretty much regarded Indonesia as pretty much a side show to the main game, although to be fair it didn’t prevent them from interfering in a sovereign nations affairs when it suited. We have have of course seen far greater attempted engagement since 9/11 but that’s another story.
Thanks for the resource update and by the way generally speaking not too far off the mark (although Indonesia is an Oil Importer and has been for several years, despite what you may read). Of course, no one ever said that Indonesia should not have been respected as strategic and critical part of the region, what was said is the USA never did that. Should we look at relative expenditure both diplomatic and other wise from the USA to regional nations (as they say money talks, BS walks).
A word of advice, best not to quote the other poster as a reference as that way just leads to humiliation. The Domino Theory is as widely discredited as Iraq WMD and came from the same dark, dank loonycon delivery room. The mere fact that the whole of Asia did not fall to Communism after the USA and others (including Australia) pulled out of the country is the obvious proof. It is apples and oranges to try and compare Soviet Aggression to the flawed Domino Theory so lets try and stay focused. It is intellectually disingenuous at best (or shows a complete inability to grasp context) to suggest that making the obvious comment the domino theory is a now proven nonsense is some kind of support for communism as a political/social system.
Seriously, do you want me to list the ever-changing reasons that US has made up for interfering in other nations affairs. In fact, the main reason was the hangover McCarthyism and the that US felt it was losing the Cold War. Johnson of course, has a far deep, moral justification as he is on record of saying he just did not want to be the first US president in history to lose a war. JFK (one of the better Presidents) said in 1960 in his first speech he made to the American public as their President, Kennedy made it clear that he intended to continue Eisenhower’s policy of supporting Diem’s South Vietnamese government. If South Vietnam became a communist state, the whole of the non-communist world would be at risk. If South Vietnam fell, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Philippines, New Zealand and Australia would follow (Note: No huge reference, or even reference in passing to Indonesia).
Of course, Vietnam did fall and so did the domino theory. Sadly, despite the money and loss of lives, the corrupt and brutal South Vietnamese Minority Elite never had the support of the people. It would be fair to say that the general populace just changed one oppressive regime for another but never the less the result was always going to be the same.
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First, let’s get by the glorification of JFK as being among the USAs greatest presidents as he certainly committed flaws in foreign policy as the Bay of Pig fiasco, the numerous misreadings of Khruschev and the escalation of the Vietnam War suggested. If he failed to mention Indonesia, as country in danger of falling to the communist,this was an error on his part,as other presidents including Eisenhower and Nixon, recognized the supreme importance of not allowing communist revolution to be exported into Indonesia.
Many times your posts are misleading and or at best confusing here on IM. A case in point is your use of a quote of mine that suggested a thought that was not its intended purpose. You quoted me as saying that “the Unites States has always recognized that Indonesia is the most significant country in Asia.” My quote actually continued and as usual you failed to indicate that to the reader, and in effect, attempted to mislead the reader for your own cynical purposes.
As far as the USA interfering with Sovereign Governments such as Indoneia that has been going on since countries first formed and came into contact with each other so let’s drop the idealism that the USA was the only guilty party in Indonesia. The Dutch, Chinese, Russians, British, Australians, Singaporean’s, Malaysians, Portuguse, Japanese etc., all have made their own unique contributions to the history of Indonesia during and after the Sukarno years. In fact, in would not be presumptuous to say that Sukarno and his relatively weak bourgeois government in Indonesia brought on great instability to the country that included allowing PKI to grow to powerfully, starting a failed wars in Irian Jaya with the British and her allies over the formation of Malaysia,, attempting to court the free world while simultaneously wining and dining the Communist nations, creating instability among foreign embassies in Indonesia by allowing protests to turn violent, attempting to nationalize foreign companies doing business in Indonesia, and failing to gain civilian government control over many elements of the Indonesian military among other problems.
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It’s perhaps self indulgent Paddy but I do enjoy your convoluted reasoning. How does suggesting that JFK was one of the better Presidents indicate a glorification? Although I did enjoy your counter point by bringing in Nixon, now there was a President 🙂
Now speaking of misquoting, I am more than happy for you to correct the record then. I believe your original statements was
Further, I would go as far as to say that Vietnam had everything to do with Indonesia and that the war fought had to so with insuring that Indonesia never fell into the hands of the communists as much as anything else given as a reason for being in Vietnam
and…
the United States has always recognized that Indonesia is the most significant country in Asia in terms of strategic location and much needed natural resources.
Yet try as I might, I cannot find anywhere where Indonesia is mentioned as anything but a peripheral side show to the reasons for the USA being in Vietnam (invariably as a minor prop for the Domino Theory although I would welcome a link to the contrary). As I said before by far the most reliable means is to follow the money and Indonesia was/is well down on the list.
As usual Patrick, your own conspiracy theories cause you more grief than I do.
other presidents including Eisenhower and Nixon, recognized the supreme importance of not allowing
communist revolution to be exported into Indonesia.
or
In fact, in would not be presumptuous to say that Sukarno and his relatively weak bourgeois government in Indonesia brought on great instability to the country that included allowing PKI to grow to powerfully, starting a failed wars in Irian Jaya with the British and her allies over the formation of Malaysia,,
Which was it Patrick an imported revolution or a home grown one?
I would suggest that particularity with regards to Papua and Malaysia is was more to do with a growing nationalism as much as a PKI driven agenda, as is so often the case previous colonial borders drawn with no regard to geographical or ethnic boundaries still create endless heartache today. Of course, no one could argue that PKI was not a powerful political force but to attempt to paint the history of Indonesia Nationalism the a red prism misses the point completely. As for instability, I think it is common knowledge the USA did what it could to destabilize Sukarno (and others as it suited), it is an amusing read of history you have there.
However, that is not the point. I am neither defending Communism as political social system nor suggesting only the USA was solely at fault. With a history of blundering around with good intentions and a abject fear of communism, the US has had some great success at creating monsters further down the track for other to deal with. More recently the training and arming of Afghans to fight the evil Russian Communist Empire…How’s that working out? Ask any analyst where the first generation thugs and terrorists in SE Asia got their training?
I do however reject your assertion that Indonesia is or was the big bogey man of military expansion in South Asia and it is self evident the Domino Theory was as flawed as WMD as an excuse to try and engineer regime downfall. I confess I am confused what is exactly your concerns since you jump around so much. We had to fear Indonesia if it turned communist? Now we have to fear them now that they are a democracy (sort of and as close as the USA is a democracy)? Or do we fear them because they because they are majority Muslim?
attempting to court the free world while simultaneously wining and dining the Communist nations, creating instability among foreign embassies in Indonesia by allowing protests to turn violent, attempting to nationalize foreign companies doing business in Indonesia, and failing to gain civilian government control over many elements of the Indonesian military among other problems.
Mmmm sounds a bit like the USA and Islam now yes?
As for allowing protests to turn violent etc etc, I suggest you do a little more reading. Granted it is difficult thanks to decades of “It’s all the PKI’s Fault” but you will find there were far more fingers in the pie than you think.
As for charging Sukarno with failing to gain control over elements of the Military. Are you serious??? Did you miss the decades of the Military excesses during the US supported New Order. Did you miss the domestic slaughters? How about the 20% of the population of East Timor that went missing? Have you not seen the upcoming Presidential Candidates, read some bios perhap?
It would be a fair point to make that much of the current problems Indonesia has both with extremists and a somewhat dysfunctional democracy can be sheeted home to the New Order and its foreign supporters including the USA.
That said, Patrick and as much fun as it has been. You really can stop worrying about an Military Expansionist Indonesia. No one else is, in fact most rational nations are far more worried about an expansionist China and are actively encouraging Indonesia and others to increase their military capability.
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Perhaps because President Kennedy had served only three years and, likely due to his unfortunate assassination, many historians have had a tendency to exaggerate his accomplishments and gloss over his failures and setbacks. In my opinion it is really difficult to place him among the greats that would include Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Rosservelt and Reagan. BTW, Nixon was considered a foreign policy expert with few peers. Many presidents who followed him sought out his advice and chief among them was Bill Clinton.
“Try as you might ….” Eisenhower was quoted more than once about the significance of Indonesia. I believe the statement concerning the cheapest way to protect Indonesia was to finance the French in their fight against the Vietnamese was made at a 1952 USA governors conference as Eisenhower was asked why he was sending $400 million USD for that purpose. During this period of history the American investment in Indonesia was huge. Companies such as as Standard Oil and Goodrich Rubber had spent considerable sums investing in the country and the archipelago was supplying America with much needed natural resources that couldn’t be found elsewhere as easily or cheaply at that time. The American companies feared both the Indonesian masses and the ever approaching influence of communism, as you know, the 2 great evils of capitalism. I will agree that the USA relationship with Indonesia, during that period, was not on par with other nations in Asia but that had more to do with the perception that Sukarno was most untrustworthy than anything else.
I never said the Indonesian invasion of Irian Jaya had anything to do with communism so please don’t make assumptions Oigal. I would agree it had to do with Nationalism and Sukarno’s dream of a unified Malay nation. As far as Sukarno failing to gain control over all the military it is still a failure no matter how you read the history. And as you stated one that still haunts Indonesia, so I guess your right, what’s to worry about? : )
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What everyone seems to keep forgetting (or just staying uneducated about!), is that there’s actually no historical or archaelogical proof for the existence of anybody mentioned in the Old Testament, or even of Jesus himself! (some would claim otherwise, such as the records of Tacitus, but his account was second hand at best)
In addition, there is more evidence that the Old testament (The book of Deuteronomy in particular) was created by political forces to establish a myth in order to unite the peoples of Judah.
There is more evidence that the Prophet Mohammed actually existed!
(and yet Muslims believe that Adam, Abraham, and Moses actually existed)
The truth is that the Abrahamic religions, if taken and assumed literally, are a load of baloney.
If you want to keep your religion, you have to assume that whatever you believe is a huge myth and to cherry-pick the moral lessons within the texts, irrelevant of historical accuracy.