Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Patrick says:
I am wondering why all you atheist doubters never investigated miracles that have occurred in Catholic Church History over the many centuries? After all, wouldn’t that be the perfect opportunity for atheist to use science to disprove, through science, that anything supernatural occurred?
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stevo says:
for atheist to use science to disprove, through science, that anything supernatural occurred?
No Patrick, no no no. It is up to the person making the claim to provide the EVIDENCE.
Once again… Atheists are NOT making a claim.
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Atheists are quite contrary fellows as they jump and down for decades ranting and raving that God doesn’t exists and religion is all a bunch of fairy tales. Now is your chance to debunk miracles that have taken place within the Catholic Church. Your not afraid of God and His fairy tales are you Stevo and Oigal?
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Still no answer Patrick?
Is the bible literal and should we be stoning those who work the Sabbath? Its not difficult, simple yes or no.
It’s ok, if you don’t wish to answer just say so but don’t pretend that you have that is just not being honest.
No Patrick, no no no. It is up to the person making the claim to provide the EVIDENCE.
Frightening as it is, one must agree with Stevie. You cannot logically demand someone prove a negative.
Far as I am aware James Randi still has a million dollars on offer to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. This has been out there since the sixties no winners yet.
In the interests of honesty, Randi does not normally get involved with direct religious claims for as they say “Because they are, for the most part, untestable. For example, you can look at a series of events – say surviving an automobile crash, surviving a plane crash, surviving a near-drowning and say “This was the hand of God,” but the point of the Challenge isn’t to give anecdotal evidence. It is to give something testable. Most religious people believe it’s impossible to test God. We’re pretty sure they’re right, though perhaps for different reasons.”
Meanwhile the Shroud of Turin..fake proven..
Seriously Patrick, if you can build whole universes why can’t you issue a flash drive with the latest updates and proof.
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For God’s sake hurry up and answer the question Patrick !
You even have Oigal agreeing with me . (now there is a real miracle, or possibly a sign of the end times.) 😉
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@ Stevo & Oigal – I already answered your question concerning the bible on June 4th at 10:29 AM. Please note that the bible contains many passages that are rather difficult to interpret without proper guidance. There is no need to argue the point as it says that right in the bible.
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You mean this Patrick:
@ Oigal – I would suggest that you not take them too literally as the bible is not always easy to understand, as you and your friend Stevo, prove time and again. Indeed in Acts of the Apostles 8: 30-35 we see an Ethiopian convert who has great difficulty understanding Isaiah from the old testament. He says he cannot comprehend the passage unless someone instructs him.
I have a question about bible interpretation Patrick. Although hard to find, there are some passages that suggest an altruistic and tolerant approach to our fellow man. Should we be similarly careful of taking those passages “too literally” or does this caution only apply to those passages that instruct us to behave in a way that is no longer politically correct and socially acceptable today?
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Well Stevo – when you say politically correct and socially acceptable in the 21 st century are you saying we should all approve of homosexuality? Pre-marital sex? Same sex marriage? I think the fact that there are no stonings, in mass, in places like Europe and the USA attests to the fact Christians practice what Christ taught us in the new testament. Now we pray for our enemies and sinners. However, it should be noted that it was also socially acceptable to practice homosexuality in places like Sodom and Gomorrah and their inhabitants were rather deviant in all matters, so the Lord God, in His wrath against the inhabitants of those evil cities, destroyed them. The lesson to Learn is who are men to define what is good and what is evil? Who are men to question God about what is right and just?
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@ Oigal – You said that the Shroud of Turin ia a proven fake. Do you say that because of the radio carboni dating done completed at three separate locations? Yes, I must admit that God doesn’t make it easy to prove or disprove His existence in these matters but He always makes us think. As you may know the Carbon dating done in 1988 is now being questioned by a number of top scientists in Europe and the USA. Most are now admitting the carbon testing was flawed because the piece cut and used to conduct the test was not properly representative of the whole cloth. You see a chemist discovered that there were chemical differencees between the sample taken and the main area of the shroud. Samples taken from the main cloth contained none of the chemical vanillin but there was plenty of vanillin on the sample piece. This proved that the main part of the shroud was much older than the sample taken and just as importantly that were chemically different and thus proving scientifically that the 1988 carbon dating was flawed.
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The lesson to Learn is who are men to define what is good and what is evil?
Ahhhhhhhh. Now we are getting somewhere…
That goes directly to my line of questioning. How do you know what parts to read literally and what parts to ignore (of the bible) ?
The subject of Homosexuals is a good example. Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church get some bad press from Christians and Atheists alike. You can say what you like about the crazy old coot, but he backs up everything he says with bible quotes. He is a Christian with integrity and is unapologetic about carrying out the directions of the good book. I am sure he is an embarrassment to Christians, as he drags out the less palatable bible directives and exposes them for all to see. He is a minister, a lawyer (Civil Rights Practice !!! lol) so well able to interpret the meaning of the ancient scripts.
It is worth noting that the “Sodomite Dammed” are in the same category (abominations) as people who eat lobster. But like you said Pat:
The lesson to Learn is who are men to define what is good and what is evil? Who are men to question God about what is right and just?
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@ Stevo & Oigal – I already answered your question concerning the bible on June 4th at 10:29 AM.
Actually no you didn’t Patrick, you dodged and weaved then as you are doing now. Simple question is the Bible literal or not? If not which parts are and which parts are not.
Please note that the bible contains many passages that are rather difficult to interpret without proper guidance.
Ah so its more like a copy of the Pirate’s Code from the Pirates of the Caribbean “More a set of guideline than rules”
Seriously tho, proper guidance..hmmm so we are capable of creating a vast universe and watching over all things but cannot produce a document that every one can understand. Problem with that Patrick, is who is qualified to provide that proper guidance. Who exactly are these anointed ones? Seems to me we have had a litany of epic failures.
are you saying we should all approve of homosexuality? Pre-marital sex? Same sex marriage?
Well I am saying it is a non-issue. Certainly better than forcing a woman to endure decades of abuse because the Catholic Church would not allow her to divorce a monster. Certainly not as much as an issue where various churches in the US declaring Bankruptcy to avoid paying recompense for serial abuse by clergy who supposed to be providing as you say Patrick “proper guidance”
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Well Stevo – when you say politically correct and socially acceptable in the 21 st century are you saying we should all approve of homosexuality?
Almost let that one slip Patrick, sorry.
It was a question not a statement. Here I will re-post if for you to save you scrolling:
I have a question about bible interpretation Patrick. Although hard to find, there are some passages that suggest an altruistic and tolerant approach to our fellow man. Should we be similarly careful of taking those passages “too literally” or does this caution only apply to those passages that instruct us to behave in a way that is no longer politically correct and socially acceptable today?
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@ Oigal – no response concerning the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin conducted in 1988? Should I assume you concede that this is likely the burial cloth of our Lord Jesus Christ? Please confirm thanks! : )
Oigal your understanding of the bible would be greatly enhanced if you would go join a Catholic Bible reading and discussion group. Otherwise don’t complain that you are left in the dark.
Yes, you are correct that the Catholic Church claims primacy over the proper interpretation over the Holy Bible as this is the Church that Jesus founded with Peter as His rock.
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Laugh…too much there for a post while traveling…I will get back to you later Patrick. Still no answer Patrick..literal or not…
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Arie Brand says:
A recent Gallup poll asked for the respective eligibility of presidential candidates from different backgrounds. Yes, all backgrounds, even a Moslem one, were preferable above the one at the bottom of the list: an atheist. Only just over half of Americans, 54%, was willing to vote for an “infidel”.
Those Pilgrim Fathers have a lot to answer for.
Still, even their remembrance could not prevent that, since 1958, that percentage has increased from 18 to 54.
Read more:
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Patrick, your continued refusal to answer the questions presented to you is eroding your credibility, such as it is.
the Catholic Church claims primacy over the proper interpretation over the Holy Bible
Not only does that statement show breath taking arrogance, it is also inconsistent with the facts. I am sure a few of your fellow Christians may not agree with you, not to mention a few Muslim folk.
Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings,
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@ Oigal and Stevo – I will answer your question by asking a few of my own. Do you think when Jesus is preaching using parables He is being literal or not? When in Geneses God separates light from day, or God from man, or the serpent from the rest of the animals, or the Jews from the rest of humanity are they not symbols and theme of separation? How about when you read the ten commandments are they not literal and straight forward enough to apply to every man in every culture?
You seem to observe two different Gods represented in the Old and New Testament but He is really one and the same. God is always good and just. You atheists see the God of the Old Testamanit as being cruel, vindictive and blood thirsty. You ask why does He command the Israelites to destroy their enemies or stone adulterers? Why such strict dietary laws and punishments for those who do not follow them? First, God is using these commands to make His people Holy and that is not easy to do when they are surrounded by hostile worshipers of false gods who often wish for the destruction of the Jewish people. Recall in Exodus God comes to dwell among His people as symbolized by the Ark of the Covenent. Don’t you think God has the right to demand that his people follow His laws and ways while He is in close proximity to them? And is it not justice when they are held accountable to the law when they are caught violating them? The whole bible points to Jesus as He is the one who comes to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies by reconciling God and man. Jesus adds to justice by bringing Mercy to those who sin and says it is not the letter of the law but rather the spirit of the law that should be observed. This was best symbolized when the crowd called for the stoning of an adulteress but Jesus stops them by saying “He who is among you without sin should cast the first stone”. Everyone drops their stones and walk away and Jesus forgives the woman asking her to sin no more. As you no doubt observed I have answered your question : )
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How about when you read the ten commandments are they not literal and straight forward enough to apply to every man in every culture?
Well I can not speak for all those Hindus, fellow Atheists, Buddhists, Taoist’s and so on (nor can you) but they do form a moral code of sorts. However the same can be said of the beliefs held by many non Christians. I am not convinced that Christians hold any unique moral high ground.
I am still a little concerned about commandment number 4. Does this literal reading, you advocate/ extend to killing people who work on Sunday? If so, it is no wonder church attendances are falling.
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@ – Stevo – I worked today and even went to mass (Sunday) and I managed to dodge all the stone throwers until I made my way to Indonesian Matters (metaphorically speaking of course). And as luck would have it, you were without even the slightest blemish on your soul …. Ouch!
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Don’t you think God has the right to demand that his people follow His laws and ways while He is in close proximity to them?
When it comes to destroying whole villages, towns, cities, women, children, babies, I think rationally that qualifies as cruel, vindictive and blood thirsty.
u ask why does He command the Israelites to destroy their enemies or stone adulterers? Why such strict dietary laws and punishments for those who do not follow them? First, God is using these commands to make His people Holy and that is not easy to do when they are surrounded by hostile worshipers of false god
Pretty much the same rational the vile scum here used to justify hacking to death three Muslims of the “wrong” sect here recently. Of course, they were just ensuring people followed God’s will.
As you no doubt observed I have answered your question :
Actually no you have not, you have tried to have a dollar each way. First by trying to justify calls to genocide as needed to make us holy and then by saying its ok Jesus said we can ignore the punishment when we need to to.
Never the less, ignoring the delivery of punishment are the stories and commands literal or not?
Who said I was an atheist, perhaps I just believe in one less God than you?
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I have always enjoyed this one..
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@ Oigal – I just realized the difference between you and God? God doesn’t claim to be you Lol!
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BrotherMouzone says:
@ Stevo and Oigal
Wouldn’t it freak you out if Patrick’s next post read;
“Guys, I’ve been thinking about your arguments, and, I hate to say this, but I think you’re right. Now you’ve explained it to me, the whole concept of an interventionist God is ridiculous, and the flaws that you’ve pointed out in the bible have really rocked my beliefs. Of course, I need time to process my thoughts but, basically, I think I’ve just become an atheist.
Thanks guys. Now I’m going to start skipping Sunday Mass, eating meat on Fridays, and start feeling less guilty about the tingly feelings I get when I watch Wonder Woman…
Thanks – Big Hug!”
@ Patrick
How would you feel if Oigal’s or Stevo’s next post read;
“Patrick, I’ve been thinking about your arguments, and, I hate to say this, but I think you’re right. Jesus IS magic.
I’m going to start going to Sunday Mass, eating fish on Friday, and start feeling appropriately guilty about the tingly feelings I get when I watch Wonder Woman…
Thanks – Big Hug!”
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I see your point Brother.
I have already commented that I do not believe our exhanges will change each others position. I think the true the value lays with these debates providing a better understanding of our respective beliefs.
Patrick did not arrive at his position through logic, so I do not expect him to change it on the basis of logical argument. Faith is the oposite of reason. If he just said he believes because of faith, he would leave me no place to go for argument. He chooses instead to use science and reason in a vain attempt to back up a faith based position. Of course I adore him for it 🙂
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@ Stevo – logic? OK perhaps you should take over for your friend Oigal and tell me why you think that the Shroud of Turin is a fake? I will give you evidence that it is not and this is documented scientific evidence:
1. As we already said the carbon dating done in 1988 was proven to be flawed and the absence of the chemical vanillin, on the main area of the Shroud, proved not only was the carbon dating flawed but that the Shroud was much older than the sample piece used.
2. The stitching on the main piece of the Shroud was examined by a Swiss textile expert and she was amazed to find that the pattern used was never used during the European Middle Ages but was found at diggings at Masada which was the fortress used by the Jews to fight off the Romans. This stitching used was from the first century and found only in Israel.
3. The image on the Shroud is consistent with the burial of a Jewish man from the time period that Jesus lived. The blood (type AB) was found and the deep red coloring (pigment billirubin)of the blood was consistent of a man who endured a very painful torture and death. In fact all the wounds pointed to a crucifixion type death consistent with the way the bible describes Jesus’ death and wounds.
Israeli botanists who have examined pollen samples taken from the Shroud confirm that the plants on the Shroud were not only from Israel, but more specifically, some were from an area in close proximity with Jerusalem. (It should be noted that some of the plants grew in other areas of the Middle East).
There is much more “Scientific” evidence that point to the Shroud’s authenticity but this is a start for you to disprove these scientist and experts in their various fields and you know this is just the first of many miracles we can examine scientifically. You will notice as we move along that the blood type AB will be consistent whenever the miracle is associated with Christ’s blood.
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Ok Patrick, you have failed to answer my important questions, but I will answer yours.
Even if we accept the evidence you quote, it would only prove that it may have been a burial shroud from that period and location. It does not prove the existence of Jesus, the resurrection, and especially not the existence of God (your God of course)
It is also noted that you are willing to reference science in support of your faith based position, but dismiss science when it works against your beliefs. The balance of scientific evidence does not support your belief in God.
I could go on at length about the evidence against the shrouds authenticity, but it is not relevant to the question “Does God Exist”.
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@ Oigal – you have an important question? Can’t imagine what that could be?
About the Shroud, it is important or it would have never survived all these centuries. OK, so you admit that you won’t be able to refute that the Shroud of Turin is from Israel, was a burial cloth of a Jewish man who left blood stains and a three dimensional negative image that no one can properly explain given the technology available at that time. Ok then let’s look at the next relic that resides at the Catholic Cathedral in the town of Oviedo. It is known as the Sudarium. Historical accounts claim that it was the cloth placed over Jesus’ face soon after death and then placed away from the body as the corpse was wrapped in a shroud for burial. Forscenic scientist investigated the Sudarium and concluded that blood type was AB and when the facial images of both the Shroud and the Sudarium were overlayed it was discovered that they were a perfect match and were therefore from the very same face. It was also noted that the blood to other body fluids ratio was consistent of someone dying in an upright position and by aphyxiation which is the same with a person who had been crucified.
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OK perhaps you should take over for your friend Oigal and tell me why you think that the Shroud of Turin is a fake? I will give you evidence that it is not and this is documented scientific evidence:
Now Patrick, you know that is not true we have had this discussion before. It’s no fun if you are going to fib. You and I both know the shroud was carbon dated and dates inconsistent with the myth, that said someone else managed to debate the samples as not being representative of the whole cloth. Fair enough but hardly evidence that it is not and this is documented scientific evidence (and it should be noted that access severely restricted, so definitive testing is unlikely). So at best, there is enough doubt for true believers to cling to the story and that is all.
BM, Absolutely, It’s all just a bit of fun and as I have said before its not like we are rushing down the street giving people a hard time. Patrick wanders in and leads with his chin, I certainly hope he does not take it too seriously no one else does.
I confess the the finest and most moral person by a country mile I ever met was a devout Muslim never the less I would still suggest that the religion was incidental to that. I do further confess it would take more than divine Revelation for me to take the position of the RCs as the only and sole path to salvation, wayyy too much history there.
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Hi Patrick. Read “MY” post again. This time replace the word Shroud with the word Sudarium.
Even if we accept the evidence you quote, it would only prove that it may have been a burial shroud from that period and location. It does not prove the existence of Jesus, the resurrection, and especially not the existence of God (your God of course)
These dirty old rags do not prove any of the claims you are making. They are bits of rag of unknown origin. I am not impressed. Please try harder.
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Patrick, you never answered, you dodged, weaved and avoided. But it’s ok. What about the simple ones. Is the bible literal and should we be stoning those who work the Sabbath? Its not difficult, simple yes or no.