Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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stevo says:
The Cheat of Sacred Rites
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold
Are but a cheat contrived by men of old,
Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust
And died in baseness—and their law is dust.Al-Ma’arri
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Patrick says:
@ Stevo – mmmmm……. You provided me two choices akin to Edgar Allen Poe’s poem selections of the “Pit or the Pendlum”. However, God provided me a third choice which was the correct position toward non-believers.
@ Stevo – I did see the news story, in the Jakarta Post, concerning the civil servant worker being thrown in jail for posting he is an atheist. I think all people, no matter what religion or not, should be outraged that anyone should be imprisoned for their personal beliefs. This kind of government interferences is quite dangerous in a so called democracy.
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Sorry for putting this here, gotta get this off my chest, this is today, in Bandung at cafe D254, a bunch of THUGS dressed up as Arabs. The cops? Instead of arresting these imbeciles they closed the place down, they just stood there and did NOTHING… I went there to have a coffee and this was going on, one of these imbeciles stopped me, what you want her?! what I want here??? yes, what do you want here?!!! I said, who’s asking??? the forum something reformasi islam is asking! I said GILA!!! Guy gets really aggressive, WHO IS GILA??? Who is gila, THIS IS GILA!!! and I just drove my motor past him fxck that bxtch, I stayed the whole time, calling ’em preman, calling them PPP, preman pake putih, murderous looks and maybe it wasn’t a wise thing to do but my blood was boiling, these are the same people that closed down cafe/restaurant Cloud 9 and it’s the same people who are behind this crap AND THEY’RE NOT MUSLIMS, can’t get into it here but what I can say is that this is CRAZY
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🙁
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Most of them were wearing t-shirts that said LPI, not sure what it stands for, Low-life Punk-ass Imbeciles would be my guess…..
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Sorry for putting this here, gotta get this off my chest, this is today…
Madrotter, I think your post is very relevant and brings the issues into the present day, where real people live now. Too often these discussions focus on past wrongs perpetrated by those long gone.
In my day to day life I am very tolerant and respectful of people’s religious beliefs and the various rituals they perform. I seldom debate these matters outside of forums such as this. I would consider it rude if my actions made my observant friends feel awkward or uncomfortable in the practice of their faith. I have found that most Theists are ok folk who mean well. I would obtain no joy in destroying their beliefs that may provide them comfort in a difficult world. This is especially relevant in less pampered societies, such as Indonesia.
However I have concerns. Religion is often used as a rallying point for those with other motives and hidden agendas. People’s faith leaves them vulnerable to being led into terrible things, in the name of God. History records numerous atrocities that continue on today. This is not about history; it is about what is happening in your town now. There is a fine line between tolerance and extremism when your beliefs are based on a faith that is immune to reason and logic.
P.S. I note you claim they are not Muslims, having perviously heard “reformasi islam”. Have I misunderstood, or is there more to this…?
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Hi MR,
Not sure how to respond as it could be pretty dangerous as those morons are brain dead cowards on their own but dangerous as a mob. At the same time, very happy to hear you at least faced them down.Stevo, the vast majority of these so called Arab Wannabes thug mobs are controlled at the higher levels by various swine with agendas of their own which have sweet FA to do with religion. You only have to look at where they create trouble (or more to the point, where do they do not).
That said, it’s difficult to have anything but absolute contempt for the coppers, big n brave when extorting joe public but actually doing their jobs…pathetic.
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Perhaps I am a poor student of History but was religion at all responsible for WW I ? How about WW II? Maybe Korea, Vietnam? When the Russians invaded Afghanistan were they marching with crosses and icons? When Lenin rallied the communist to overthrow Czar did they rally crying out for a religious paradise? Chairman Mao he called for a great cultural revolution was that to bring religion to the masses? Its a little disingenuous, isn’t it, to continuously blame God and believers on all the world’s woes.
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Stevo, the vast majority of these so called Arab Wannabes thug mobs are controlled at the higher levels by various swine with agendas of their own …
I agree. That is what I attempted to say here:
Religion is often used as a rallying point for those with other motives and hidden agendas
It is also touched upon by that poem of Abu ‘L’Ala Ahmad ibn ‘Abdallah al-Ma’arri a Syrian atheist and skeptic born in 973. His words are remarkable considering the time and place they were written. They would be courageous words, even today, in the Middle East. It makes me wonder if the religious are even -less- tolerant today than they were over a thousand years ago. A troubling thought !
Patrick, I agree with you and I am intending to post something that will only add to your point. It will relate to how the non religous also demonstrate beliefs that are not based on observable evidence, but on ideals and faith. At least with my Muslim, Christian, whatever friends, I know where they stand. They have standards, even if I don’t agree with many of them. The “new agers” and their fuzzy moral relativity piss me off far more than you God botherers ever have.
Don’t worry, none of this will stop me challenging your beliefs with no mercy 😉
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The Alexander Aan sentencing in Indonesia is starting to become newsworthy in the West as a leading New York Newspaper is carrying his story. As many of you know, I am not a big fan of atheism and often oppose it through debate and here on this thread. However, one must draw the line in these matters when a person’s right to decide for themselves what they believe can be punished by an intolerant government. The whole idea that our God gave us free will, the right to choose what we believe or not, is being threatened and that is why all sides of the issue should call for Mr. Aan’s Immediate release. Both, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are monitoring the situation closely and have called for Mr. Aan’s release as his imprisonment is a violation of International law under the International Covenent on Civil and Political Rights. These rights guarantee an individual’s right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and freedom of opinion and expression.
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madrotter says:
Well, i wouldn’t say I stood up to them, i just tried to voice my disgust at what they were doing….
Like I said, I can’t get too much into what’s behind all this, jealous competition not of the Muslim faith paying thugs dressed up as Arabs to destroy the place….
As you can read, two guys came the night before, saying there would be a demo the next day demanding 10 jt. and then they could stop it, of course they didn’t pay….
This is how things go in Bandung these days:(
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This is how things go in Bandung these days:(
Sadly not just Bandung, I think Timdog’s always rosie outlook for Indonesia must be increasingly harder to maintain.
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Perhaps I am a poor student of History but was religion at all responsible for WW I ? How about WW II? Maybe Korea, Vietnam? When the Russians invaded Afghanistan were they marching with crosses and icons? When Lenin rallied the communist to overthrow Czar did they rally crying out for a religious paradise
Well in fact Patrick, Religion played a rather large and negative part in all of those you mention. The hideously corrupt, brutal minority Roman Catholic elite government of South Vietnam certainly provided fertile ground for a communist insurgency. There is little doubt that North Korea and the principle of the infallible dear leader is a direct model of most Religions. The part the church played in ensuring the privileges of the chosen few and to keep the serfs in their place once again ensured religion once again gained its blood sacrifice. We have previously discussed the Catholic Churches blood role in World War 2 so we can leave that.
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Well, my outlook for Indonesia isn’t rosie at all, not at all, I see a lot of bad stuff happening, not that things aren’t bad already but I see it going from bad to worse really. Of course I can only speak from what I see happening in my own part of the country and what I read…..
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And as far as religion and discussions about it go, I usually stay out of those discussions, they can make for some interesting reading but in the end it just goes nowhere, I think Krishnamurti said it best:
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Oh Indeed MR, For me it is just a bit of fun not like you could ever win a debate where ultimately the default answer is “just is” so there. Not like I go trawling the web looking for religionists to upset but I figure people like Patrick come into a thread called Atheists and Atheist’s beliefs then its fair game to have some fun.
Perhaps next time you hear about a good time for coffee then flash me an email, been awhile since I have been to Bandung and it may be interesting.
As for what has been going on, it has been getting pretty willing around here as well. No so much Religion but tribal based. Not a week goes by without some Dayak demos and there have been a number of lives lost this year alone (curiously unreported). That said, still feeling pretty safe here .
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Absolutely right Oigal, and sure these discussions can be fun:) But it’s hard in real life outside forums here in Indonesia where many people don’t even understand the concept of “not believing”. First years I lived here I would often say when asked that I was a Chrislim but sometimes folks get angry about that. What I’m missing in the subject is HUMOR, the ability to joke about the whole matter…. For me, personally, it’s not a very important subject really plus when you go deep it’s really a very private subject too….
To each his/her own lah, me, I’m going with the likes of Christopher Hitchins, Richard Dawkins….
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Yea MR, Fundamentally they are a humorless lot…….
I had to grin the other day, was out with some friends the other day and when as usual the mostly quaint but sometimes Indonesian habit of asking personal questions of a perfect stranger occurred. At a dinner and someone came up to their six year old daughter…How old are you etc etc? Eventually what religion are you? To which the young girl relied “It’s none of your business? Too true little one..too true.
As for the non believer bit, yes well there has been years of brainwashing ..no religion=communist=evil harpies cutting genitals off heroic generals and group sex. No that different to the loony cons in the USA at the moment.
I always thought the Mr Bean Skit on Atheists and religion summed it up best…
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@ Oigal – ya I am sure we have all been entertained by your effortless thought process. And yes it has been fun to pick apart one by one your dubious claims. Likewise, thank you for the merriment! 🙂
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🙂 Actually Patrick, I cannot think of one time when the end result of any discussion with you has not resulted into the internet equivalent of you standing in the corner stomping your feet and crying out “Is so too”.
You have without fail dodged any real question on faith (as you must). We are still waiting to hear if you believe the bible is to be taken literally or is open to whomever wants to speak on behalf of God. Come on Patrick its a pretty fundamental question.
You have yet to explain how children dying from horrible diseases have fallen from your God’s Grace. Any argument you have submitted could just as easily be applied to prove the existence of the tooth fairy except the tooth fairy does not demand blood sacrifices just an old tooth.
Of course, to be fair that is the only way that any Religion can exist, it is all about faith not logic nor science. As the man himself said “Tis the God of dark spaces and with every advance of science the God must by definition retreat into those ever diminishing dark spaces that science is yet to explain”.
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Pat you try and distance yourself from the clear words of the bible. Jesus makes it very very clear that the old testament still applies. You need to brush up on your bible knowledge. Let me help you out:
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments…..
Here are some abonimations to be wary of. (No going to heaven for oyster loving homos I guess !)
“They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.” (Leviticus 11:11)
“If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
We can clearly see that god puts eating clams and lobster on the same level as homosexuality.
No point in debating the clear words of god, but my question is this; why do Christians not protest in the street, and lobby government, about people choosing to eat shellfish?
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Well I guess that’s where the Fundies get their argument that allowing gay marriage will lead to bestiality. Deep down its the base dark need to have sex with oysters (mmm what do you call that) that worries them.
Although I must confess never done it myself but have had odd occasion to worry about crabs in my younger days.
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A dose of the crabs is all a bit accademic if your going to be stonned to death for the sin of “going unto her”.
However, if having a normal sex life leads to more serious damage AND you avoiding the stoning, you can forget bible class:
23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
And you can forget wet-dreams too buddy !!!
23:10 If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp:
I came upon an interesting study done in the USA. They found that Atheists had greater religious knowledge than Christians. In second place were Jews and Mormons.
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by the way, i guess those dayaks have plenty to complain about oigal….
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More than an little MR, the term we would use in Australia is “right royally shafted”. The Dutch had nothing on these guys, at least they pretended to show some respect for the culture and even pretended to leave the local chiefs in charge.
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Kerry B. Collison’s Indonesian Gold, though at times a bit melodramatic describes beautifully how those Kopassus guys were shitting their pants when going up against the Dayaks:) mostly they only had knives, swords and blowpipes and Kopassus as you know have the most advances weaponry they can get from the US etc …. Got a lot of respect for them and I’ve got a feeling I would feel pretty relaxed among them
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@ Oigal – the reason that you cannot remember anything remotely near the truth is that you suffer from a severe case of early dementia poor gal. Case in point when keep asking about Lot’s daughters even though I answered more than once and always at your insistence. In fact all your questions in your posts On June 17th have been addressed by me at one time or another on this thread. You can either go back and find the answers or perhaps David will take pity on your condition and find them for you?
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I am pleased to hear that Patrick, though I did not actually suggest you thought them less than human. Read it again.
What I did was give you two choices…
BTW, do you think I should be thrown in jail for posting Atheist views on a blog ( as per my previous post)