Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Ah Yes Patrick, and we should not forget good old Lot, casting his daughters to the mob. Tell me how do we reinvent that story?
Actually, I don’t have any problem with you twisting and twirling the actual passages to read what you need them to read. However by the same token it makes you little different to the nutters who twist and twirl the Koran to justify jihad (or not).
The problem you have is, if that taken literally the bible is full of contradictions and ongoing calls to violence and gross abuse (not to mention bizarre sexual practices). Not taken literally then it becomes as often as not a handbook for mayhem and mass murder solely dependent on some nutters interpretation.
Now back to my original but unanswered question. Do I really have to to stone those in the village here not keeping the Sabbath holy? I really need to know because with all these Muslims here, I am going to need a very big bag of stones. Oh and how do I know that you are right and they have it wrong because one of you is telling fibs.
Meanwhile, as we know “thou shall not kill” is pretty much just a guideline not so much a commandment (was it ok to kill before Moses brought down the tablet?..seems strange). Anyway can you confirm its still ok, to kill Canaanites, Midianites, Jebusites, Hivites etc, especially if they had the misfortune to live in the Promised Land. I do like this bit
“Kill all the men and boys and most of the women. “But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves” (Numbers 31:18).”
Not sure how you are going to reinvent that little passage but it should be interesting..
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Tarko says:
Oigal has got enlightenment.
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Patrick says:
@ Oigal – you asked me about Lot before and I answered. Did you forget? The date was April 2, 2011. Perhaps David will repost it again on this page to remind you?
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stevo says:
Speaking of questions asked Patrick, I am still waiting for an answer to the important question of how you know your God is the correct one out of the many on offer?
Your deeply held (Christian) beliefs are possibly nothing more than an accident of birth. You may have been born into a Taoist family. It was only chance you were not.
You have failed to establish the legitimacy of your God. Until you can establish that legitimacy, the bible just remains a collection of stories, noteworthy only for their brutality and intolerance.I see no reason to suspect your anything other than a decent person with good morals. You may consider the Christian Bible to be your moral “rock” but I suggest you do not actually obtain your moral code from it. I suggest it is more symbolic and you are attached to what it signifies to you, rather than any literal interpretation. I do not think that you would suddenly become a bad person, if you joined the enlightment and became an atheist. You may consider that a slight on your religion, but it is actually a compliment to your morality.
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The stones Patrick, the stones..
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Dedicated to Oigal. “Everyone must get stoned” Bob Dylan
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to be so good
They’ll stone you just like they said they would
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to go home
They’ll stone you when you’re there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stonedThey’ll stone you when you’re walking on the street
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to keep your seat
They’ll stone you when your walking on the floor
They’ll stone you when your walking to the door
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stonedThey’ll stone you when you’re at the breakfast table
They’ll stone you when you are young and able
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to make a buck
They’ll stone you and then they’ll say good luck
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stonedWell They’ll stone you and say that it’s the end
They’ll stone you and then they’ll come back again
They’ll stone you when you’re riding in your car
They’ll stone you when you’re playing you guitar
Yes But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
AlrightWell They’ll stone you when you are all alone
They’ll stone you when you are walking home
They’ll stone you and then say they’re all brave
They’ll stone you when you’re send down in your grave
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned -
@ Stevo – What are you trying to convey when you ask is my God the correct one from the many to choose?
Are you attempting to differentiate monotheist from polytheist?
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It is good to see you quoting something that makes sense and that we can all relate to Patrick. Have you finally turned-the-corner? 😉
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@stevo – oh no, nothing has changed, just having a bit of fun with old Oigal…. 😀
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No I am not Patrick. The question has no hidden meaning. Poly or Mono, it makes no difference at all. You have to established the legitimacy of your belief system for it to be credible. The number of gods you believe in is not the issue here.
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@ Stevo – Actually we can dismiss polytheism rather quickly from a philosophical standpoint as we have observed many times here on this thread. Read Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas among others so now we are down to Monotheism. We have the Abrahamic religions of Judism, Christianity and Islam and between the three religions we have the vast majority of monotheistic believers in the world. Since we all agree that the God of Abraham is the One God what exactly is your point?
Oh didn’t mean to exclude the those other nouveau monotheist who do not believe in a personal God but a rather indifferent Super Being who only cares about keeping the Universe in order. Thia would include some former atheists such as Albert Einstein and the British philosopher Anthony Flew. The pure atheists are dwindling in numbers and may soon become (GASP!) extinct………
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Read Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas among others so now we are down to Monotheism.
Patrick, you really are squirming and twisting on this simple question. This is your golden opportunity to defend the faith in an open and non- confrontational way. You should jump at the chance.
I have no interest in what those people said way back in another time. It was a time when considerably less was known about the natural world than we know now. I am also not impressed by appeals to authority as the basis for your beliefs, especially if those authorities are so very dated.
I am asking YOU to establish the existence of YOUR God in YOUR words.
I find your light dismissal of other (Polytheistic) beliefs laughable and a little arrogant. Your views would be news to millions of Hindus and many many other Polytheists. You also overlook the hundreds of other “Gods” worshiped throughout history. Many of these have been around allot longer than your particular desert cult.
Once again, what is the evidence that your God is the “one”?
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The pure atheists are dwindling in numbers and may soon become (GASP!) extinct………
In your dreams brother, in your dreams. Are you sure you were not smoking something while you transcribed that Dylan song?
In fact there is a shift away from these pre science beliefs as a way of explaining the world around us. Many people who claim to be Muslim/Jewish/Catholic etc only identify with those groups in a cultural way, rather than in a theistic way. For allot of folk, religion is about their culture and tradition, more than a literal belief in ancient myths.
I acknowledge that some have moved in another direction towards fundamentalism and literal interpretations of the (their) holy books. You should know what I am talking about here Patrick. Both the USA and Indonesia have problems with those extremes. I hope these people are not the ones you are aligning yourself with, as part of this –alleged- renaissance of blind faith?
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@ Stevo – you said that other gods have been around before the one God of Abraham existed? Do you not remember He is the Alpha and the Omega and through all things seen and unseen were made. The Universe’s constant expansion points to that very fact that it had a beginning and one day will have an end.
As far as polytheism goes it really is a lost position for you to take unless you have something to add to the debate that would confound Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas or Einstein? I can’t wait to read your new theory.
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@Stevo – pre-science beliefs? Did I miss something or has science proven for a fact that God does not exists beyond our collective imaginations? It seems one by one scientists and philosophers are abandoning the pure atheistic platform and are trying to get onto the impersonal god bandwagon. Which by the way means they are jumping ship and leaving behind the dogma of Evolution in case you have not observed this implication of their new found beliefs 🙂
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Stevo – You want in my own words why I am a believer. First and foremost I am a sinner unworthy of the reward of heaven but for the Good Grace of God that I am saved. You are also correct in your assumption that I am not looking forward to bearing my soul in order to personalize my belief in God Almighty and yes I likely squirmed once or twice before finally taking up your challenge. I kind of identify with the former slave trader who wrote “Amazing Grace” except at times in my life I was the slave of various sin as I pursued a rather hedonistic lifestyle in my youth.
I was born of Irish parents and I was close enough to death on my third day of life that my dad received a telegram that I wasn’t expected to live through the night. As you can see I survived and I know more than a few prayers were said for me by my relatives. As a kid I was very wild and rambunctious and I caused more than my fair share of problems for my parents. Once I went to school I was extremely quiet and a poor student generally except when I would take exams for reading comprehension or for IQ measurement. Then I soared above the crowd but I was so lacking in concentration that I was considered by most teachers and students “dumb as an ox”. But every once in awhile I would do something far beyond what people thought I was capable of and I would always be asked “who helped me or did I cheat on the exam?”. This was a pattern all through grade school and into high school where I completed only two years of four. Allow me to mention I was also an altar boy (spare the jokes as I, nor any of my friends, were ever abused by any priests in our parish). I really enjoyed my experience as an altar boy as it was one of the only times in my life that I felt comfortable in front of people and my concentration was good as I can never remember making any mistakes of any consequence. Anyway, during my high school years I followed my friends and turned from God and I became more involved with teenage drinking, chasing girls and smoking pot. Just before turning 19 a good friend of mine talked me into going to a recruiter to see if I could join the Army. I didn’t have a high school diploma so the recruiters i gave me a basic math test which I barely passed. After that I took another exam with thousands more recruits from across the USA. My friend and I went back to the recruiter and he was astounded because this long haired hippy kid (me) received some of the highest testing scores ever seen. Long story short i was assigned to Germany and quickly fell in with the wrong crowd. It was nothing less than bizarre as we got high almost every day smoking hash and drinking beer. This was a combat ready Nuclear Missle Unit and somehow through it we got the job done and I managed to stay out of any serious trouble until I got into a bad fight with some other GIs from another unit in downtown area. Prior to that fight I thought I was doing rather well for myself. I had plenty of friends and attracting women to me was never any problem. I read, among other things, pop psychology books like “I am ok your ok”. I was finally coming out of my shell until that beating at the hands of 3 other soldiers. They hurt me so bad my face was unrecognizeable for days. They shattered the bone in my upper nose and years later following a surgery the doctor told me it caused the worse scaring he ever saw in his career and he said I was millimeters from death. My jaw was also fractured along with a good number of my teeth in the back of my mouth. For years and until this day it causes me considerable pain.Anyway, this experience caused me to withdraw from everyone but my closest friends in Germany until I was discharged months later under honorable conditions. (part ii tomorrow)
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Patrick, firstly thanks for giving me some insight into how you came to believe in God. I look forward to the second instalment. You probably appreciate this is unlikely to change my position, just as my words are unlikely to change yours. The real benefit of these exchanges is to give some insight into other peoples beliefs and perhaps clear up misunderstandings. That has to be good thing I think. In that spirit I shall continue to challenge your cherished beliefs relentlessly and you will return the favour, I am sure 😉
You have once again assumed that the “God of Abraham” is the one and only legitimate God. That is ok for you on a personal level; however you have provided no evidence to support that assertion. Appealing to authority is not evidence and I am not convinced your sources are authoritative, on this topic. Einstein actually made a serious blunder postulating the existence of something he had no evidence for (the cosmological constant) just as I suggest you are doing. He described this as “the biggest blunder of my life”. In fact, you have contradicted Einstein’s cosmological constant in that very same post, by correctly informing us that the universe is expanding (Einstein’s imaginary constant made it static). This is the risk you take with your credibility when attempting to use science and appeals to authority Dear Patrick.
The fact the universe had a beginning and end does nothing to prove the existence of your God. You have failed to connect the two theories. Further, if things must have a beginning and end, then how did your God get there, ahead of all those other Gods that came before him??
You then go on to make the two classic mistakes of many Theists. The first is to assert that Atheism is a “belief system”. The second (and related) idea is to assume that belief in (your) God is the default setting for humanity and Atheists must “prove” there is no God. Both ideas are easily proven wrong.
People are born Atheists and learn religion. It is a mere accident of birth you are not Muslim, Taoist or Hindu. Atheism is the default setting, not belief in “the God of Abraham”. This is self- evident and needs no further expansion.
It then follows that the person making the claim must provide the evidence to support it. Your right about one thing, science has not disproved the existence of God. Nor has it disproved, the tooth fairy, the nest of magic dragons living in my garden, Thor, Zeus and so on. Science has not disproved Hindu, Muslim or Polytheists beliefs either (and neither have you I might add). Your making some fantastic claims about your God, front up with some fantastic evidence to support those claims.
You make a similar mistake by describing evolutionary science as “dogma”. It is actually just plain old science. The main concept of evolution is surprisingly simple and elegant, unlike the complex impenetrable explanation for Gravity. Are we to believe that Gravity is a “dogma” and does not exist?
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Stevo – I am a little confused about your explanation concerning the Cosmological function? What you are saying, forgive me, doesn’t make any sense. The reason I say that is that yes the Cosmological Constant, as pointed out by the Russian mathematician Friedmann, was a mistake and yes Einstein regretted the mistake but for reasons different than you propose. You see at that time Einstein’s mathematical formula suggested an expanding Universe but he could not come to terms with this because, he earnestly believed, the Universe was static. Why is that an important point you ask? Because Einstein realized if the Universe was expanding, as the Hubble telescope later proved, then the Universe had to have a beginning and therefore it would have to have been created and that was the something he could not come to terms with at the time. Therefore, his regret was that he let his beliefs get in the way of good science when he developed the Cosmological Constant.
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Patrick, I am honestly amazed at your continued link back to Einstein. Is it an attempt to add some kind of scientific credibility to your belief? I am confused by that as we discussed before Einstein didn’t proclaim to have all the answers because he didn’t have all the evidence or proof and therein the difference between science and religion. The one thing he did and consistently refute was the belief system such as yours as the product of frail minds.
However, you have continually avoided the question. Is the bible literal or open to whomever want to claim the ability to read between the lines?
Do people who work on the Sabbath really deserve to be stoned? Is it really ok to keep slaves?
Let’s make it simple, In your system of belief how old is the earth really? (we will get to the issue of God resting on the seventh day later (God gets tired?)
How can you be so sure and all those poor Chinese and Thai’s are so wrong?
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Stevo – You made the claim that children are born Atheist. This assertion of yours must also be dismissed as you have no credible scientific evidence to establish your hypothesis as a fact. The bible on the other hand has verses that makes it clear that all men and women were known to God from the womb. See Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalm 139:13. In Romans 1: 19-20 states not only did God provide all men with an innate ability to perceive Him but there is no excuse for not doing so. If you are interested there was a recent scientific study of children that supports these bible quotes. The study was conducted by Dr. Justin Barrett a senior researcher with Oxford University. He stated “If we threw a handful of children on an island and they raised themselves, I think they would believe in God”.
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Human is the only smart creature on earth, earth is the only living planet in the universe. Are those things a coincidence?. There is HIV, we arent able to cure AIDS yet, maybe never forever. Nah mean?.
There is Oigal,
There is kangaroo,
There is Sheep,
There is potato,
There is GOD. -
Patrick we have talked before about you trying to use science to support your belief in the “God of Abraham” and getting yourself into all sorts of trouble.
his regret was that he let his beliefs get in the way of good science
Yep he sure did. Just as you are doing. Your example supports the Atheist position and undermines your own.
The correct approach ( when dealing with us non-believers) is to tell the simple truth. For example My belief in God is based on my inner faith. I know that God exists in my heart & soul. The comfort and guidance this provides is very real to me. My faith is immune to the reasoning of man
That leaves us rational Atheists no place to go.
Well Dear Patrick, you did not take that approach and to do so now would undermine your credibility. You have attempted to support your belief in God on the basis of science. It is on those terms (that you have selected) that I will continue to advance my views.
You have failed to engage me on the substantive points I have raised. The answers, to the points you have raised, are already covered in my lengthy posts above.
Now I don’t mean to keep you long, after all, those: Adulterers, naught kids, collectors of sticks on a Sunday, un-virginal brides, will not stone themselves to death….. will they? 😉
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Hey Stevo – take a look at the score the theists have won a rather lopsided victory over the atheists, here on this thread, the likes not seen since Portugal trounced North Korea during the last cup. Do you think the Portuguese needed coaching advice from the North Koreans after their match? Ha ha ha!
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Hi Tarko.
How do Sheep & AIDs prove that God exists?
Do you agree with Patrick that the ONLY true & correct religion is the Christian religion?
What is your view of stonning people to death, in the manner demanded by the Christian God?
Please share your thoughts….
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Tarko
Human is the only smart creature on earth, earth is the only living planet in the universe. Are those things a coincidence?.
Well I have an issue with your opening statement, Humans are not the only smart creature on Earth, in fact watch the morons burning books today would suggest that even smart among humans is relative.
Earth is the only living planet in the universe, well I have not travel that far yet but with the billions upon millions of planets I would doubt very very much that the Earth is the only living planet. I certainly would not take the word of a document whose supporters had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit the Sun did not revolve around the earth and the earth was not flat.
There is Oigal,
There is kangaroo,
There is Sheep,
There is potato,
There is GOD.There is the tooth fairy
There is Thor
There is Odin..Hiv..proves evolution but not God
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Oh I can not resist …………..
You made the claim that children are born Atheist. This assertion of yours must also be dismissed as you have no credible scientific evidence to establish your hypothesis as a fact. The bible on the other hand has verses that makes it clear that all men and women were known to God from the womb ….The study was conducted by Dr. Justin Barrett a senior researcher with Oxford University. He stated “If we threw a handful of children on an island and they raised themselves, I think they would believe in God”.
Where does this leave Thai & Hindu kids ?
There are only two choices you are faced with:
1. Thai & Hindu kids are not human.
2. Patrick is wrong.
I will assume that you are not so ignorant as to regard the Thai & Hindu as less than human Dear Patrick. Which leaves you with only one remaining choice…
Once again Patrick, you are getting yourself into problems by attempting to use logic to support a position held on blind faith alone. Cut the B.S. and just tell us why you believe in God.
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Hey Stevo – take a look at the score the theists have won a rather lopsided victory over the atheists, here on this thread, the likes not seen since Portugal trounced North Korea during the last cup
Well Partrick, as a soldier of Christ you may want to gain yet another “victory” by actually addressing the points that have been raised. I know you probably have some “good works” to do (stoning homos, torturing folk, destroying cities and such) so I just ask that you speak to the issues raised on this page alone.
Now how hard can that be for such a brave and pious soul as yourself…..?
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An Indonesian man has been sentenced to two and a half years in jail and fined $10,598 for professing his atheism on the internet
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2012/06/20126146135415374.html
What can I say, that does not speak for its self.
Lets forget history Patrick, and look at the followers of the “God of Abraham” today. These are your people whom you have defended in the preceding posts.
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@ Stevo – On what grounds do you dare to imply that I think that Hindu or Thai children are less than human? All people on planet earth have God within them and we must always respect our brothers and sisters who, perhaps, through no fault of theirs have not heard the gospel of Jesus. Interestingly enough the Church leaves open the possibility that among these people some will be saves as long as they follow their conscience by leading a life that would be compatible with the teachings of Christ, though they never knew Him. As you can see it is the desire of God that all peoples know Him and join the body of the Faithful.
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No there is not. We pretend that there is to maintain social norms and order. They are one and the same thing. Unless ofcourse you take “lust” to mean acting on your natural (god given?) impulses?
Really all this is just semantics. Physical attraction and lust are degrees of the same thing. Everyone knows this in their heart and denying it fools no one.