Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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oigal says:
Actually Patrick, I don’t recall you clearly saying that at all previously. I do recall you declaring your repugnance for the crime (fair enough) and then launching into a spirited Defence of the institution. The above is not bad in fact. You still have to actually answered the questions on bankruptcy tactics etc but hey…I never expected you too.
The second part of your post….WOW…Homosexuality is linked to child abuse is linked to atheist homosexual groups involved in pedophile activities? Not content with that little interlocked bunch of bizarre claims, I am also helping protect pedophiles?? In a few words are you @@@@n insane.
Its would be amusing if not so tragic. The only international organisation that has systematically aided and abetted pedophiles for decades (centuries?) that I am aware of is…you know who.
Homosexual pedophiles?…Well that is just plain nonsense as the vast majority of pedophiles (outside of the church, which is an other interesting corrolation to ponder, does being a member of the clergy….) are not homosexual but heterosexual and more often than not family men.
As you have obviously unmasked some major conspiracy perhaps you would like to name this homosexual, atheist group. No you cannot say the French just becuase they insist upon a secular educational system.
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Patrick says:
@Oigal – Do you ever read what you critique or are you just content to voice whatever dribble happens to be flowing from your mouth? You have the annoying habit of asking questions that were already answered. God provided you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Anyway, yes of course I am insane, why else would I bother to think an intelligent dialogue with you was possible? Your rather crude accusation is actually an indication that your argument is missing the fervor it once held as, one by one, your atheistic viewpoints have been peeled away and exposed as nonsense.
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@Oigal – speaking of the French, it was a very impressive sight indeed to see hundreds of thousands of French men, women and children (btw the nucleus to a real family) stand together under the Eiffel Tower to protest against same sex marriage.
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Ok Patrick, so yet again a non answer to questions posed. Safe to assume then, the secret international, homosexual, pedophile conspiracy is just the figment of a fevered mind. Meanwhile Australians have now been advised that Royal Commission into child abuse is expected identify literally thousands of victims of which the Churches ongoing cover ups is expected to have prime billing.
The questions remain Patrick..Red herrings and conspiracy theories are just dodges. Re read the posts and answer the questions I suggest you (start with the morality of using bankruptcy to avoid payments to victims as the first in sad series of credibility issues for the church.
BTW it’s hardly a atheist viewpoint to suggest the systematic, international and continuing failure to prevent abuse by the church. I would suggest its a moral one. Do you really need me to list the countries now forced to carry out formal investigations on the failure of the church in this matter.
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BrotherMouzone says:
@ Patrick – I’m going to have to call you out on a factual error/blatant lie you told a little earlier. You claimed that the Pope’s “Crimminis Sollicitationis” (a papal document that required that anyone who exposed child-rape by the church should be excommunicated) referred to priests who broke the seal of the confessional.
Just. Not. True.
“Crimen sollicitationis repeated that, under pain of grave sin, any ordinary (bishop or equivalent) who received a denunciation of the crime of solicitation was to inform immediately the Holy See and the ordinary of the place of residence of the accused priest.[20] It was for the ordinary of the place of residence[21] to investigate the charge at the first level (in prima instantia); the Holy See reserved to itself the right to intervene at this level only “for particular and grave reasons”.
The document explicitly refers to a denunciation. Not a confession. And who are priests suppose to inform of a denunciation? Not the police, not the parents of the child that has been raped, not social services?
The Holy See; so the church can deal with it internally and ensure that the details never come to light.
This is an organization that, while doing a lot of good around the world, also has a very, very, dark side. Rather than take steps to amputate the festering limb of institutional pedophilia, the church has instead opted to elect as its leader the man who helped cover it up.
That doesn’t sound like the actions of an organization that is guided by God, does it?
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Actually Brother M, what I wrote is true because Crimminis Solicitationis deals directly with the seal of the confessional. This is time honored tradition of the Catholic Church that no priest, under any circumstance, should ever break the seal of the confessional and to do so risked excommunication for the violating priest. This included circumstances where a pentinent accused a priest of soliciting the pentinent for a sexual act during confession. The priest was warned not to break the sacred seal of the confessional even to defend himself against such allegations.
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Interestingly the Royal Commission in Australia has just announced needs and will have the power to set aside confidentiality agreements in order to uncover the truth and depraved depth of the problem. There is little doubt that the nonsense pushed by the church that the issue only involves a very few people will be put down once and for all. One priest alone would face literally hundreds of charges if he had the decency to live a little longer.
Where will be very challenging is the Royal Commission is talking about requiring the seals of confession to be broken if it relates to abuse. Practically not sure how they would do that but not before time.
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Thank you Oigal for your good reporting concerning the Catholic Church pedeophile problems in Australia. You are absolutely correct as the Catholic Church needs to clean house and get rid of any clergy who commit these atrocious acts and severely punish tose who either aided these pedeophiles by hiding their crimes or who remained silent when they had the means to stop these guys.
Interesting that you signaled out one priest who would have been prosecuted for hundreds of crimes had he not died. Without knowing the complete details my guess is that he mainly attacked boys? The reason I say this is that heterosexual pedeophiles statistically sexually assault approximately 19 victims in their lifetime while homosexual pedeophiles sexually molest 150 or more boys in their lifetime. In the USA it is conservatively estimated that homosexuals are responsible for almost 45% of the sexual assaults even though homosexuals are less than 2% of the general population. This means you were right when you said that heterosexuals were responsible for the majority of sexual assaults against children. However, the most prolific serial sexual predators are homosexual men based on these statistics.
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A Diocese of Bridgeport Catholic priests was arrested this week for selling methamphetamines to Connecticut police undercover officers several times during the past few months. Msgr. Kevin Wallin, now known as Msgr. meth, was on a forced sabbatical from his duties as a Catholic priest after he was found to be cross dressing and having sex with strange men in the Rectory. During the sabbatical, besides his thriving drug business, he opened an adult film and sex toy store called (your going to love this Oigal) The Land of Oz. He managed to still collect a stipend during his sabbatical from the Catholic Diocese. They paid him despite the fact they couldn’t locate him and he failed to complete his duties that were assigned him. For those of you unfamiliar with the Diocese of Bridgeport it include Fairfield County one of the top wealthiest counties in the USA. A few leaders of the Catholic Church have been the heads of this diocese including Cardinal Edward Eagan, who later became the Archbishop of New York and Archbishop William Lori the Archbishop of Baltimore.
What we are witnessing here are a two fold problem within the Catholic Church and that is lack of competent leadership and homosexual clergy. The Church likes to play the victim and claim that they are under assault from evil but in truth the leadership of the Bishops, or lack of, has lead to these problems and so far they are clueless to solve it. They, the Bishops, do not have the proper faith and moral backbone needed to lead the Church through this great difficulty. They fail to see it is Christ who is clearing the money changers from His Father ‘s temple. It’s time for the Bishops to clean house as well and fire the pedeophiles, openly homosexual priests and their Bishop enablers and any clergy covering up these crimes.
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@ Patrick
“Actually Brother M, what I wrote is true because Crimminis Solicitationis deals directly with the seal of the confessional.”
No. It. Doesn’t.
It deals with any accusation of child-rape by a priest – not confessions. I can show you the original Latin and the accepted English translation if you like. Even the church doesn’t defend it under the terms you describe, so I don’t know where you are getting your info from.
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Well Patrick, credit where credit is due, that is a pretty fair admission and acknowledgment of the failings of the organisation. It has never been about the belief in this case just the Defence of the indefensible. Not sure why it was like pulling teeth.
I have to agree with BM’s other point, I don’t think anyone has any idea where Patrick is pulling his facts from. I really cannot be bothered but fair to say there is some very selective use of stats going on here. Sorry most people can grasp the concept that homosexuality and pedophilia are not inter changeable terms but frankly I don’t care enough about religious homophobia to argue the point on this one.
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@Bro M – Crimminis Sollicitationis, as you brought it up when you referenced Pope Benedict XVI, reference of the document referred to the matter of a pentinent accusing a priest who during confession solicited the pentinent for sex. The priests were warned that if they were accused they risked excommunication if they broke the seal of the confessional something the Church has maintained during its long history. An accused priest, as I stated earlier, could not even defend himself with any information obtained from the confessional. I believe that if a priest did break this sacred trust then the person learning of what was said in the confessional had a duty to remain silent as the seal of the confessional was extended onto them. That is why you mentioned earlier about priests, bishops and investigators risked excommunication. However, you erroneously assumed that meant covering up a crime and it was really meant to protect at all costs the seal of the confessional.
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Oigal says “I don’t think anyone has any idea where Patrick is pulling his facts from. I really can’t be bothered…”
@Oigal – It really is incredible to me what you post here on IM as I already posted more than a dozen sources from very credible USA institutions, and the landmark study of 13,000 individuals by the University of Otaga in New Zealand showing a direct link between child abuse and homosexuality.
There are many studies from around the World that clearly demonstrate homosexuals are among the most unhappiest people on the planet. Here are a few studies for you to learn from:
University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) Department of Epidemiology – Homosexual men show a lifetime prevalence toward suicide that was significantly higher than heterosexual males.
University of San Fransisco – “Battering Victimization Among a Probaility Based Sample of Men Who had Sex with Men”. Studied demonstrated relationship violence among homosexuals was very high as 44% of gay men reported having experienced physical violence in their relationships. 13% reported sexual violence and 83% reported psychological abuse. Lesbians fared even worse with 55% reporting physical violence in their relationships and 84% reporting psychological abuse and 14% rotting sexual violence.
Dr. Maria Xiridou with the Amsterdam Municipal Health Service in her study found that consensual infidelity was the norm in homosexual unions. Those in casual relationships averaged between 16 and 26 different partners per year and more eye opening was that 86% of the new HIV infections reported were from homosexuals in steady relationships.
Again I could go on and on about the dangers and cause of homosexuality choices but if you insist on keeping your head in the sand or stomping your feet as a reply what’s the point?
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Oigal says:
Well you see Patrick its becaus deliberately or not you continually misquote or mispresent studies to support your view.
Let’s take Dr Maria’s study for instance, did you mention that all the people she interviewed had to be under the age of 30 (kind of hard to demonstrate years of committed relationship at thirty). All the names were drawn drawn from the Cities HIV/AIDs register (So if I went to the STD clinic in the brothel region of Arizona, would it be fair to project those findings onto the heterosexual community at large..obviously not). People in the survey had to specifically state they were not in a exclusive relationship as the study was about aids transmission NOT relationships.
Contrary to what is oft proposed the survey was not about gay marriage (it was not even legal at the time of the survey) but a targeted survey on high risk groups with acknowledged risky behaviour to impose this on the wider community is fundamentally dishonest.
Happy to provide you more if you are sincerely interested but context is everything Patrick.
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Hello Oigal – First, I would like to congratulate you for not attempting to question or challenge in any way the two California studies which concluded that homosexuals faced a lifetime prevalence for high suicide rates compared to the heterosexual population and the rate of violence within homosexual relationships, both male or female, is extraordinarily high and one could conclude the amount of physical and emotional pain in homosexual relationships is off the charts.
Secondly, I take it that you, by your silence, have found nothing unscientific about the New Zealand study concluding that most homosexuality can be traced back to being abused as children. Again congratulation are in order for conceding these points.
Lastly, and most curious indeed you made the claim that I “…deliberately or not you continuously misquote misrepresent studies to support your point of view”.
Ok Oigal, you offered really only conjectures to support your hypothesis that I am somehow misrepresenting studies but where is the real evidence to support your view? Are there any such studies that indicate that homosexuals are capable of having long term truly monotonous relationships? Let’s be frank, you haven’t because there has never been a credible scientific study that concluded that homosexuals, in any significant number, are capable of having monogamous relationships. In fact, the German sociologist, Dr. David Virtue, decalres in a study of 900 male homosexuals living in Bonn that Monogomous relationships among homosexuals in relationships is a MYTH. The data he collected showed that 83% of these (747) males said that had frequent sex outside their relationship during the previous 12 months.
In a seperated long term study that followed 30 homosexual couples only one lasted more than 10 years. At the start of he study, 27 of these 30 couples expressed that they wanted a Monogomous relationship that offered them love, stability, affection ect. There was so much infidelity reported to the study that Dr. Evelyn Hooker stated “For many homosexuals one night stands are the norm”.
The Kinsley institute conducted a significantly large study that provided data showing that the majority, 75%, of homosexual males has between 100 and 500 lovers in their lifetime. Half of these sexual encounters were with men that they met for the first time.
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To continue Patrick, it’s a little amusing by using people like the good Doctor’s study so out of context you sound like so many Indonesians here.
brainwashed from school by ignorant teachers that all Westerners have loose morals and the West itself is decadent and people live for ‘free’ sex (although I have never really understood the free sex term). As they get older they happen upon Jalan Jaksa and catch a Hollywood seamy movie…yippee all our prejudices are confirmed.
Of course, a moments rational thought on context might bring the following points to ponder:
1. that the drunk with the girl on Jaksa is not typical with the vast majority of expats at home raising a family.
2. There are literally tens of thousands of working girls in Indonesia servicing..who?
3. It’s not expats running the skin trade..Context is everything Patrick.
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@Any atheist – Someone help poor Oigal out as he is so lossssssst!
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SoapDodger says:
Hi Patrick,
Can I respond to your assertions by asking a couple of questions:
1) Is it any wonder that homosexuals a more prone to suicide in statistical studies, when for the vast majority of history they have been a misunderstood, and demonised group; subject to horrible treatment by the rest of society? If you were routinely victimised because of an aspect of your life that you had no control over wouldn’t you feel powerless and lose hope?
2) Monogamous relationships are no indication of morality except in a narrow religious sense, and don’t you think that as homosexuality is only a recently visible aspect of society that it would take time, and acceptance for homosexuals to feel comfortable and stable enough within society to engage in stable relationships?
To conclude: uncertainty, fear of wider society and stigma account for a large part of the negative outcomes you attribute to homosexuals, and are an understandable in a group of people who until recently were not able to be an accepted part of almost any society. I would predict that with time, this will change and we will see reduced suicide rates, and a move away from the moral ‘superiority complex’ of heterosexual monogamy which continues to be propagated by religions and conservatives in a very narrow minded way.
Please take a moment to consider my points before responding with undue haste, it makes the exchange of opinion much more reasonable.
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Sorry Patrick, your congrats are somewhat premature. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I am traveling and being a techno leper find it difficult to cut and past in the survey war with the IPad. However each and every one of your surveys has its critics in both form and substance (google).
More importantly, as I have discussed before rather selfishly homosexuality is really not that big a deal to me one way or the other, so I do concede you would ‘win’ this debate with me by sheer volume of rebuttals required. Personally I regard religion as a far greater threat to society and mental health.
As for long term stable relationships, surely you must be aware of any number of high profile couples and I personally know several long term couples both male and female who for obvious reasons don’t seek publicity. As I have stated before, I wonder how much responsibility people like yourself and the church would like to take for the high suicide rate amongst homosexuals? I would take a guess that you have never personally been the target of abuse or demonization by a homosexual and yet day after day here you are telling us how they are a ‘sick’ part of society, magnify that a thousand fold and I agree life must be hell.
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@SoapDodger – Interesting name, how did you get it?
Your questions are answered as follows:
1. Powerless and loss of hope?
A. First, from a Christian theists point of view the bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination to God. However, are homosexuals destined to remain powerless and without hope? The answer is clearly no as Jesus as our redeemer gives power and hope to all who seek Him no matter what sin they committed. A good example is the adulteress that Jesus saves from being stoned to death and then forgives the woman’s sin telling her “go and sin no more”. From this story we learn several things including how compassionate Jesus is toward sinners and His power to forgive sins reveals Him as God. He teaches His followers to be merciful toward sinners and He demonstrates that sinners are not hopeless or powerless against sin.
2. In Genesis it is God who brought man and woman together in marriage and all other types of living arrangements are meaningless and without God’s blessing. Homosexuals will likely never have long term relationships in mass numbers because their sexual unions are without any further purpose other than sexual gratification. Imagine a world where men and woman had the same sex drive and the same impulses toward sex and no other considerations. Yes, it would be a nonstop orgy both in and out of relationships. Wow! I just described a growing number of men and women in modern society both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Sad but true.
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oh please tell us we are now going to start quoting from and seeking moral guidance from Genesis! This is going to be so much fun…happy happy days!
But let’s start easy’ so Patrick can you confirn that the Earth is only 2000 years old then and can you clarify do you mean anyone in a non christian marriage is in a meaninless relationship or are there loop holes?
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@Patrick
the name? Well how do you think…? It’s sort of self-evident isn’t it?
1. If only Christians were compassionate towards these ‘sinners’, rather than small minded and persecuting them… Unfortunately their belief in their imaginary friend and his righteousness allows them to overlook small matters like hypocrisy. The people who cast the first stones in a modern day account of that story would all call themselves christian/muslim/etc and not see the sheer indefensible contradiction of that according to their own book’s supposed morality.
2. Those ten big rules this deity ‘delivered’ unto man are nothing more than some good ideas on how to have a comparatively civillised society when you’re a tribe of pre-agrarian nomads living in the wilderness. And you want to take the relatively recently transcribed oral accounts of hundreds of years of their history as fact, without any acknowledgement of the possibility of being inaccurate, outdated or just plain allegorical…?
Plus, yes, just imagine, if men and women had comparative libidos, we’d be living in a world over run with the bastard offspring of their unblessed seed, surrounded by the worst excesses of gomorrah…oh,…wait… no we wouldn’t, because if we could just get beyond the pathetically tribalistic and outmoded codes of the religions that have shaped the horrible state of the world then we’d be a lot better off. It’s not ‘sin’ that has made the world a worse place to live but bigotry and the parasitic edifices of organised religions.
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Patrick says ” In Genesis it is God who brought man and woman together in marriage and all other types of living arrangements are meaningless and without God’s blessing”. My friend Oigal after he reads that comes up with his twist and says ” … Can you clarify do you mean anyone in a non-Christian marriage is in a meaningless marriage or are their loop holes”?
Genesis says that God provided us with the concept of marriage and we know marriage was practiced by all people and cultures since earliest times. Even indigenous people in the Americas and Australia were marrying long before the Europeans arrived.
Anyway, it’s funny, isn’t it, that DNA research shows that all women on the planet are descended from a common ancestor?
Turn that 🙁 around 🙂
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Mmmm… Referring to yourself in third person now Patrick…as a wise man once said ..beware that way lies madness..
I will get back to you on the principles of evolution later but going out now..
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@Patrick. In answer to your female common anscestor, please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve#Common_misconceptions
The common occurrence of ‘marriage’ in many societies can be easily accounted for by simple practicalities, namely exclusive access to a reproductive partner guarantees the known parentage of any resulting child. The social benefit of this practice is reduced conflict between group members due to the creation of taboos that regulate behaviour (not to mention the simple evolutionary plus of reducing competition to successful individuals by enforcing exclusivity).
And to phrase it as you have (‘Even indigenous people in the Americas and Australia were marrying long before the Europeans arrived’) seems to suggest a degree of surprise that this simple social mechanism for reducing inter-generational conflict was common practice. Why would this be odd, or evidence of any imaginary power’s decree to humans?
Surely its not hard to believe that given humanity’s common origin in Africa, and their subsequent spread around the world, that institutionalising practices that protect an isolated and vulnerable group from internal violence would be useful? Useful, but not God given. Society adapts to survive as best it can.
Now we are not a society of hunter-gatherers, always with the threat of disintegration or eradication, there is no evolutionary or social necessity for purely reproductive partnerships.
Also, any response to my previous post?
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@SoapDodger – I thought perhaps you got your nickname in prison or something? LOL!
Without reading some slanted dribble that you posted, I am fully aware of the problems associated with tracing DNA all the way back to a beginning female or male. Science can neither prove evolution through it or without it and the same with the bible version. Just my little fun with my friend Oigal 🙂
Thank you for your explanation of the “common” practice of marriage” as you so eloquently described it. It makes one wonder why marriage is being discarded by so many heterosexuals and embraced by so many homosexuals in today’s world? Btw I couldn’t find any examples of any previous marriages among homosexuals in any cultures going back before the 20th century. Strange how it never happened until modern times? Perhaps you can enlighten us further?
P.s., sorry but I didn’t respond due to those questions having been addressed many times already here on IM. How many times do we want to go around the traffic circle?
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@Patrick,
Just to spare you the trouble of reading ‘some slanted dribble’, proving evolution through the analysis of mitochondrial DNA is not the point of the practice. It is to trace DNA markers found in the population to the most recent common female ancestor, who need not be the only female human on the planet, just the one from whom these markers have survived in unbroken female descent. Not a biblical Eve figure, as you alluded to in your post.
Agreed, science can’t prove evolution in absolute terms, but it provides the most logical mechanism for explaining the development of life on earth, debating this is old. For me, and most other sane people, this will do for now.
Why wonder about falling marriage rates in hetero couples, and growing demands for it among gay people? I mean any sensible person would understand my argument as providing a reasonably good answer for that question.
But then again, you’ve demonstrated yourself to be less than familiar with sense, for instance your other question about the lack of historical homosexual marriage when the answer is contained in my first post about the need for covert homosexuality in times when society was dominated by the hypocrisy of religions that preach tolerance and respect for the life that their imaginary friend in the clouds has apparently created.
If you wish to move the debate forward, rather than in circles, then read each response properly, consider carefully and provide some useful contributions to the debate rather than fishing through willful ignorance and deliberately provocative sh*tstirring, ‘s all I ask
Finally, regarding the name, having never had the pleasure of being incarcerated I’m afraid not. Although its interesting that your pure and elevated religious mind leapt to the thought to prison sodomy instantly, freudian implications…?
Smiley for you, have a nice day 🙂
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@ SoapDodger – “Sodomy” did I mention sodomy? Before you lecture anyone else why don’t you realize when you have stepped right into the snare that you set to trap me. Let’s face it SoapDodger you gave yourself that name to be provocative and get a reaction that you could use against me like some cheap trick at a carnival. Better luck next time Dr. Fraud 🙂
SoapDodger you should have challenged me concerning homosexual marriage not being present in the past as their is some evidence that the practice occurred in Ancient Rome. Some historians even point to Nero, (Now there is a real hero of atheism if there ever was one) who is said to have married, in an elaborate ceremony, a very young boy (my my there is that link to homosexual men having an appetite for young boys again). The practice of homosexuality was widespread in the pagan Roman World and it is said the homosexuality declined rapidly as Christianity ascended. Many historians credit Christianity with providing a stabilizing influence on family life that was becoming almost extinct as Romans engaged in many types of extramarital affairs. As you yourself must admit a family provides the proper environment to properly nurture children so that society can continue onto the next generation. The only proper definition of a stable family is a man and woman joined in matrimony and their off-spring or adopted children.
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Hi Patrick, Well I guess you didn’t mention Sodomy in the past three posts but lets be honest it does seem to a fixation with you (although what people do in their bedrooms seems to a common thread for the ultra religious for some reason).
Although I do admire your consistency in bring forth a chuckle. Nero? now is your link between homosexuality and pedophilia, god only knows what you make of the link between the latest revelations on the clergy and kiddie fiddling in the USA last week (I mean by your own logic then…)
But anyway, one good turn deserves another..I thought you would enjoy this.
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It’s funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim -
@Patrick, what snare? You made a poor joke at the nature of my name, unambiguously implying that and I merely corrected you on that assumption. The name was chosen because I often get labelled a hippy, so no, nothing provocative about it, only what you chose to read into it, which as I said reveals more about your mindset than mine.
And you’re seriously using the ridiculous notion of ‘decadent Rome’ as an argument? Jebus Christy, its been entirely discredited through historical document as nothing more than the manufactured moral indictment of puritanical Christian historians with a political agenda.
Nero was probably nuttier than a sack of squirrels, and also subject to the politically motivated attacks by his opponents, so not the best subject if you want to find a reasonable and unbiased historical view on anything, let alone what he may or may not have done sexually
Also, friend Oigal rasies a good point when he brings up the issue of Chrisitan clergy and their role in massive and widespread sexual improprieties, or would you say Christianity has ‘provid[ed] a stabilizing influence’ on this as well?
Your belief that the only proper environment to raise a child is with a heterosexual married couple is simply unproven. You can’t make a claim like that unless you are willing to disregard the fact that there has not been the opportunity for society to try any other method of rearing children. Until we allow a proper level of equality for other family groups (of whatever composition) to do so, neither you nor I can pass judgement on that with all the facts.
Oigal’s quote is a good example for you Patrick, it shows the contradictions at the heart of strictly text based religious observance, as well as the outdated qualities that are definitely not compatible with modern life. Take a few lessons away from it. Admitting that morality can be relative to the historical moment of the society it operates in doesn’t have to mean the end of the world 🙂
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Oigal says ” I don’t get why you cannot see the problem but I have come to accept (and find repugnant) these religious blind spots”. Ya Oigal and I don’t get why you cannot understand plain English as I have stated very clearly, more than a few times, the Church should remove all priests and clergy convicted of sex crimes immediately. The same goes for those caught covering up pedeophile crimes. With that said, I do not accept your “repugnant” behavior to ignore the very obvious links to homosexuality and child abuse as well as clear links of atheist homosexual groups involved in pedeophile pursuits. You are acting as a hypocrite, as you, through your silence help hide and protect pedeophiles.