Islam Revert
Dec 20th, 2008, in News, by PatungA teenage Australian girl from sunny Queensland finds Islam in Lampung and becomes a revert.
Kim, or Kimi, otherwise known as “KimDonesia” (Kim + Indonesia), a 17 year old Australian from Queensland, the Sunshine state, once lived in Lampung, southern Sumatra, for six months, accompanying her step-father who worked for a sugar company, Gula Putih Mataram (GPM).
While in Lampung she says she studied Islam, and was moved by the passionate devotion of the people there to the religion, and finally fell in love with it, particularly the sound of the call to prayer.
After moving back to Australia she converted to the faith, or reverted as she would have it. Here she explains, in rather good Indonesian, how she came to live in Indonesia in 2007:
In this video she explains her religious journey – from Wiccan moon worshipping, to nothing in particular, to Islam – she even has the pronunciation right, Islaaam, – and how living in Lampung and talking to the people there was one of the keys to her decision to throw her lot in with Allah.
Youtube Mission
Kimdonesia has in the short time since her conversion this year produced dozens of Islamic dakwah (missionary) videos on Youtube, and has a bit of a following among some Indonesians, at http://www.youtube.com/user/KimDonesia.
549 Comments on “Islam Revert”
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Ryuken says:
Mohammed Khafi, Thank you for your explanation, but it seems that you haven’t answered some of my questions. Here they are again, as I would prefer that you answer them explicitly:
– What about his other daily speeches (speeches outside the Qur’an)? How about when Muhammad (s.a.w) told the Sahabahs to do certain things and not to do other things which were not part of the Qur’anic revelations? Did the Sahabahs ignore him?
– Can you give me any proof that the Sahabahs ignored the Hadith & Sunnah?
– Tell me, which is the schism/sect, and which is the true followers? Why did it take 14 centuries (until the 20th century) for the ‘true followers’ (Qur’anists) to emerge? Where were they before?
About the third question, I know that you’ve replied by saying “how can somebody who returns to the uncorrupted Word of Allah, Al Quran, be part of a sect?”, but that’s just conjectures, isn’t it? The historical fact remains that Muslims since the days of Sahabahs and Khulafaur Rasyidin have always believed in and practiced both the Qur’an and the Hadith.
How can you call the Ahlussunnah as a schism while it’s clearly just a continuation of the believe and practice of the Sahabahs and Khulafaur Rasyidin, and then claim that the Quranists are the true believers while history has proven that they are a 20th century innovation? So please, let’s stick to historical facts and evidences and cease the use of conjectures, since it will only result in the ‘your words against mine’ situation.
MK, I brought up the topic about the correct Qur’anic translation techniques (tafseer) since I wanted to know about your level of knowledge about the issue. How long have you spent in studying the Quranic tafseer? You do know that scholars spent years in perfecting their knowledge of the tafseer, while others have dedicated a lifetime in studying the subject, don’t you?
Then you surely knew that certain words means different things in the Quranic Arab language, depending on the context. The word “hadith” can also mean different things depending on the sentence. As Yusuf Ali, Shakir, and Pickthal have pointed out, it can be interpreted as ‘exposition’, ‘narrative’, and ‘portents’ respectively. I am in the believe that those scholars have more knowledge about the Quranic tafseer than you.
You see, I don’t believe that we should attempt to interpret the Qur’an without the proper knowledge. We need teachers to guide us in the process. And why do we need teachers in studying the Qur’an? Well it’s the same reason why the world needs schools and teachers. If everyone can educated themselves on their own then we don’t need the school system, we should just print as many text books as we can and distribute them to the masses. IMHO, the same logic applies in interpreting the Qur’an.
I know that Qur’anists believe that we can interpret the Qur’an on our own with the argument that Allah SWT states that the Qur’an is “easy to understand” (which I’m sure it’s true, but in other meaning). But let’s consider this analogy: If you give the Qur’an to 1000 people and ask them to interpret it on their own (without the proper knowledge) then they’ll probably come up with 1000 different conclusions. Whereas if the methodology is correct, then there should only be one common conclusion.
Al Qu’ran 5:3 “…This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion…”
It’s clear that Allah SWT had completed His favour and His religion of Islam in the days of Muhammad (s.a.w) & the Sahabahs. From the surah, we can conclude that the true Islam is the Islam which were practiced by the Sahabahs, who believed both the Qur’an and the Hadith. It’s inconceivable that the Sahabahs did not try to imitate the Prophet (s.a.w) as the Qur’an stated that he is the best of examples. And what better way to follow his example than by following his Sunnah?
In conclusion, I don’t think that a 20th century movement (the so called Qur’anists) is the manifestation of surah 5:3, since Allah SWT had clearly said “This day have I perfected your religion for you” 14 centuries ago. I think that it meant the true and accepted Islam is the continuously practiced religion ever since the days of Muhammad (s.a.w) to this day, and not some newly invented movement like the Qur’anists. Argue as you want, but you can never reconcile that piece of historical fact.Al Qur’an 5:56 “Dan barangsiapa mengambil Allah, Rasul-Nya dan orang-orang yang beriman menjadi penolongnya, maka sesungguhnya pengikut (agama) Allah itulah yang pasti menang.”
Have you taken Allah SWT, Rasullullah (s.a.w), & other Muslims as your guardian? How?
Al Qur’an 42:16 “Dan orang-orang yang membantah (agama) Allah sesudah agama itu diterima maka bantahan mereka itu sia-sia saja di sisi Tuhan mereka. Mereka mendapat kemurkaan (Allah) dan bagi mereka azab yang sangat keras.”
Wallahu’alam.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Assallamu Alaikum Ryuken,
I will try and answer your questions individually to the best of my abilities and the best of my understanding.
You asked:
What about his other daily speeches (speeches outside the Qur’an)? How about when Muhammad (s.a.w) told the Sahabahs to do certain things and not to do other things which were not part of the Qur’anic revelations? Did the Sahabahs ignore him?
I am sure that they did not ignore him, he was the choosen leader of the people as well as their religious guide was he not? But there is a difference between guidance given to save one’s soul and guidance for social governance.
You also asked:
– Can you give me any proof that the Sahabahs ignored the Hadith & Sunnah?
We were sitting down writing what we heard from the prophet. He entered the room and asked us: What are you writing? We said: We are writing what we hear from you. He said: Another book next to the book of Allah? We said: It is what we hear from you. He said: Then write the book of Allah, uphold the book of Allah, no other books but the book of Allah, uphold the book of Allah. Abu Hurayrah said: So we collected all that we wrote and burnt it. Then we asked the prophet: Can we talk about you? He said: Yes you can and feel no shame of it, and whoever lies about me deliberately his seat in hell will be secured. Abu Hurayrah said: Can we talk about Bani Israel? He said: Yes you can and feel no shame of it… (Musnad Ahmad, Number 10611)
Ismail told us that Hammam ibn Yahya narrated from Zaid ibn Aslam who narrated from Yasar who stated that Abi Saeed said: The messenger of Allah said, “Do not write anything I say but the Quran and whoever writes anything but the Quran should delete it.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 10713)
Shu’aib told us that Hammam said that Zaid ibn Aslam narrated from Ibn Yassar who stated that Abi Saeed said: The messenger of Allah said, “Do not write anything I say except the Quran and whoever writes anything but the Quran should delete it.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 10715)
Yazid told us that Hammam ibn Yahya narrated from Zaid ibn Aslam who narrated from Yassar who said that Abi Saeed stated: The messenger of Allah said, “Do not write anything I say except the Quran and whoever writes anything but the Quran should delete it.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 10781)
Abu Ubayda told us that Hammam ibn Yahya narrated from Zaid ibn Aslam who narrated from Yassar who stated that Abi Saeed said: The messenger of Allah said, “Do not write anything I say except the Quran and whoever writes anything [besides it] should delete it.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 10966)
Affan told us that Hammam told us that Zaid ibn Aslam narrated from Ibn Yassar who stated that Abi Saeed said: The messenger of Allah said do not write anything I say but the Quran and whoever writes anything but the Quran should delete it. (Musnad Ahmad, Number 11160)
When a man was found recording Muhammad’s narrations Zaid, one of the scribes who used to write down the Quran, told him to erase them:
Narrated Zayd ibn Thabit:
Al-Muttalib ibn Abdullah ibn Hantab said: Zayd ibn Thabit entered upon Mu’awiyah and asked him about a tradition. He ordered a man to write it. Zayd said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) ordered us not to write any of his traditions. So he erased it. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 25, Number 3640)Well they certainly seem to have ignored the hadiths quoted above!
Thirdly you asked:
– Tell me, which is the schism/sect, and which is the true followers? Why did it take 14 centuries (until the 20th century) for the ‘true followers’ (Qur’anists) to emerge? Where were they before?
The first part of the question is only for Allah to answer, He already tells us this in Al Quran, one such verse is:
Surely the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah (swt) only. And those who takes Auliya (protectors, helpers, lords, gods) besides Him (say):”We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah.” Verily Allah will judge between them and the concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah (swt) guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever.
As to the second part, you are assuming that nobody followed Al Quran only are you not? It feels safe to assume that The Prophet Himself followed only Al Quran. The 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs also can be seen in the history books to have followed Al Quran and the wishes of The Prophet, when they collected and burned the collections of Hadith.
Rejection of fabricated religious practices is nothing new, even amongst the Jews and the Christians, there are those who have adhered to the Deen of Nabi Ibrahim, True Islam:
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. 3:113-115
You said:
The historical fact remains that Muslims since the days of Sahabahs and Khulafaur Rasyidin have always believed in and practiced both the Qur’an and the Hadith.
The majority of Jews and Christians use the same reasoning to justify what they follow, but despite the fact that they have been following their corrupted teachings for many years longer than the muslims doesn’t make their teachings any less corrupt does it?
You said:
Then you surely knew that certain words means different things in the Quranic Arab language, depending on the context. The word “hadith” can also mean different things depending on the sentence. As Yusuf Ali, Shakir, and Pickthal have pointed out, it can be interpreted as ‘exposition’, ‘narrative’, and ‘portents’ respectively. I am in the believe that those scholars have more knowledge about the Quranic tafseer than you.
I would respectfully suggest that their translations are based on hadith teachings rather than the direct Classical Arabic meaning, Hadith is the word that Allah used in Al Quran so it is Hadith he was referring to!
You said:
If you give the Qur’an to 1000 people and ask them to interpret it on their own (without the proper knowledge) then they’ll probably come up with 1000 different conclusions. Whereas if the methodology is correct, then there should only be one common conclusion.
If you give Al Quran to 1000 Clerics and they use hadith and sunnah to interpret it there will be 100,000 different conclusions, what we need is interpretation based on history, facts and the time of revelation. Not on contradictory fantasy stories made up about The Prophet.
You said:
It’s clear that Allah SWT had completed His favour and His religion of Islam in the days of Muhammad (s.a.w) & the Sahabahs. From the surah, we can conclude that the true Islam is the Islam which were practiced by the Sahabahs, who believed both the Qur’an and the Hadith.
It is clear that Allah perfected his religion in the lifetime of The Prophet, but as Sunnah and Hadith as we know them were clearly rejected by The Prophet Himself, I cannot believe this statement to be factual. In actual fact the Hadith were not even collected and compiled for some 200 years after The Prophets death.
You quoted:
Al Qur’an 5:56 “Dan barangsiapa mengambil Allah, Rasul-Nya dan orang-orang yang beriman menjadi penolongnya, maka sesungguhnya pengikut (agama) Allah itulah yang pasti menang.”
I do turn to Allah, in the words of His Book Al Quran, I also turn to The Messenger as portrayed in Al Quran, and beleivers who beleive that Al Quran is as Allah says, Complete, Perfect and Fully Detailed!
You quoted:
Al Qur’an 42:16 “Dan orang-orang yang membantah (agama) Allah sesudah agama itu diterima maka bantahan mereka itu sia-sia saja di sisi Tuhan mereka. Mereka mendapat kemurkaan (Allah) dan bagi mereka azab yang sangat keras.”
It is you my friend who is saying that The Word of Allah is insufficient and disputing His statements not me, perhaps you would do well to remember:
Follow thou the inspiration sent unto thee, and be patient and constant, till Allah do decide: for He is the best to decide. 10:109
Peace
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Elijah says:
Brother Khafi
Assalamu AlaikumI could not resist to talk to you although my exams are only a week ahead. Not even one of those talking to you is Imam Abu Hanifa ra, Imam Malik ra, Imam Saafii raa, Imam Ahmad ra. How can someone of us ignorant Muslims judge your long answers. A long answer may make the other person pause, but there are very few people interested these days to judge the validity of an answer. The longevity of my answer would not be a problem at least for you.
Today, even more sophisticated self-interpretations are eating Ummah from inside, an example being Qadianiat. It would be better to deal with expert Qadiani Murabbis who self-interpret Quranic verses for thier own ends to prove the continuation of Prohethood after Rasoolullah saaws. Self-interpratation of Quran is a black hole that is very appealing to Westernised Muslims for its flexibility as well as to heretic sects like Qadianiat to jusify their own beliefs.
I know persons whom no one would think to be remotely concerned about Islam telling me “I don’t believe in Hadith”.
Brother, you know that when Rasoolullah saaws was 40, Sahaaba were much more proficient in Arabic than any one of us. Yet in 23 years Rasoolullah saaws explained to them the Book of Allah. Hassan bin Thabit raa was a eloquent poet. The Arabs were extempore poets who would create verses at the moment sometimes during the moments of war. I think at least no one of us is at the level of Arabic proficiency at which Sahaaba raa were when Rasoolullah saaws was 40, not to mention that anyone of us has spent 23 years on understanding Quran. So, don’t spread your ideas among those ignorant Muslims some of them would one day say after doing worst of abominations:”I don’t find it in Quran”.
The more ignorant Muslims you find who would argue with you like Barry, Ryuken and me, the more you will grow in your conviction that you are right. You have a conclusion in your mind and you always select the arguments in its favour. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Qadiani claimant of prophethood wrote 83 books based on logical fallacies and self-interpratations, and he has ignorant followers in millions. You have huge prospects of making followers. I would think about all your questions and would search for their answers at least for myself.
I would remind you what I had said
If it is not impossible for thousands of Sahaaba raa to memorise letter by letter the thousands of the Aayaat of al-Quran, 700 of the Huffaaaz died in the battle against Musaylama, it is not impossible too for each of them to memorise sayings of Rasoolullah saaws far fewer in number for the most of the Sahaaba raa.
If they had not considered it obligatory they would not have learned, memorised, documented and taught everything Rasoolullah saaws taught in twenty three years till the day of his demise to the Tabiun raa.
and you had said
Waalaikum Salaam, Brother Elijah,
I am sure that what you say has an element of truth, no doubt some of The Prophets God given wisdom did survive in the mass of Hadith
So, please sacrifice your money, time and effort to fly to Madina University to do a PhD in Usoolul Hadith, and then make your mind. But please stop at least for now to create doubts in the minds of those who actions don’t speak of anything of Islam to justify their actions by saying “I don’t believe in Hadith”. Because if you become responsible for someone’s false Aqeedah which is like the direction to Paradise, you would have to bear the burden of their sins.
I would repeat what I had said earlier.
Imam Malik ra said : The Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammad (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) is like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.”
Man qaala fil quraani bi ghairi ilmin falyatabawwa maqadahu min naar
Ibn Abbas (RA) narrated that Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, “He who speaks on the Qur’an without possessing knowledge must assume his seat in the Fire.”
Sunan Tirmizi 2959
Musnad Ahmad 2069
Tahqeeq Albani ZaeefMan qaala fil quraani bi ra’yihi fa asaaba faqad akhta’a
Sayyidina Jundub ibn Abdullah (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said, “If any one speaks on the Qur’an giving his own opinion and even if he is correct, he has done wrong.”
Sunan Tirmizi 2961
Sunan Abu Dawood 3652
Tahqeeq Albani ZaeefHelp me out in arguing with Qadianis, on ahmadiyya.co.nr.
Qadiani argument #1
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men for Allah is He Who hears and sees
Qadiani argument #2
2:38 We said: “Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.For distortions of word Khaataman Nabiyyeen by Qadianis in this verse
33:40 [And know, O believers, that] Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but is God’s Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets. And God has indeed full knowledge of everything.visit alislam.org
I would ask you a last question. How should others offer Salaatul Janaazah Funeral Prayer for you if you die today? How would I know How Rasoolullah saaws offered Salaatul Janaazah beacause Allah says
33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. -
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ my ablutophobic Friend Elijah
Ryuken is an arab so it is understandable she will defend islam whatever the cost. I can’t understand why a paki would align themselves with arab instead of their indian lineage?
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Mohammed Khafi, I’m sorry for the late reply, I was quite busy these last few days. I see that Brother Elijah is making some points that you needed to address first. But let me just give you the answer to your earlier arguments. I will give you some quotes from a certain website that will answer some of your questions regarding the Musnad Ahmad Hadiths:
According to Muslim authorities Muhammad expressly forbade anyone from writing down his hadiths. The reason why he supposedly did this was to insure that his words would not get mixed in or confused with the Quran:
We must make a clear distinction between the Qur’an and the Sunnah. As for the Qur’an, the Prophet ordered his Companions to immediately write down the verses that were being revealed to him. On the other hand, he deemed it sufficient for his Companions to preserve his Sunnah in their memories, not because his sayings were from him and had nothing to do with his Prophethood; to the contrary, he spoke not from his own desires, but from divine revelation that was being inspired to him. The reason why he ordered his Companions to write down the Qur’an is because it was revealed to him in an exact wording through Jibreel. As for his sayings, the meanings they indicated were inspired from Allah, but the wording with which they were expressed was from the Prophet. And so in distinguishing between the Qur’an and his sayings – by recording one and not the other – the Prophet was taking a necessary precaution to prevent the Qur’an, which he was receiving from Jibreel, from getting mixed up with his own speech. (Dr. ‘Ali Muhammad As-Sallabee, The Noble Life of the Prophet, translated by Faisal Shafeeq [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: October 2005], Volume 1, pp. 138-139
The holy Qur’an had been collected and written during the government of Abu Bakr al-Seddiq (11-13 of Hejira), but the Prophet’s traditions were only kept orally within hearts. No one dared to record in written form the sayings of the Messenger, as a response to a tradition (Hadith) cited by Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudri, in which the Prophet said: Do write nothing but the holy Qur’an; and who has written from me anything should have it erased.
He seemed apparently to be fearful of any mixture between the divine revelation and the Messenger’s traditions. It was clear that this order was intended to serve the purpose of keeping the holy Qur’an as a heavenly divine revelation, far from being amalgamated with any human speech; even the speech of the Prophet himself, though his deeds and acts as a whole were revealed by Allah…
When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab became the Muslims’ Caliph (13-23 of Hejira), some companions called upon him for issuing an order of writing the tradition. He asked Allah to guide him to do this action for a month, but he was not inspired to fulfill this task. Some 76 years later, Omar Ibn Abdul-Aziz took the power (99-101 of Hegira), and was successfully qualified to accomplish the collection and writing of the Messenger’s traditions after asking Allah for the proper guidance, in this case several times for about 40 days. He allowed for Abu Bakr Ibn Mohammad Ibn Omar Ibn Hazm to record them in written form. He wrote what he had kept in a book, from which several copies were sent to the different Islamic regions. Abu Bakr, during this time, was Medina’s judge and governor. He died in 120H.
Mohammad Ibn Muslim Ibn Shehab Al-Zuhri was ordered also by Omar Ibn Abdul-Aziz to compose another book of tradition.
In this way, a collection of the Prophet’s traditions (Hadith) began to appear, with no methodologically specific arrangement or classification. The traditions were randomly gathered… (Ibn Hesham, The Prophet’s Biography, translated by Mohammad Mahdi Al-Sharif [Dar Al-Kotob Al-ilmiyah, Beirut-Lebanon, 2006 2nd edition], Introduction, pp. 4-5)
Secondly, the Prophet was keen to write down the text of the Qur’an immediately after he received it from God. To ensure the distinction between his own words and the word of God, he warned people not to write down his own prophetic utterances so that they would not be mixed in with God’s words. Muhammad even commanded people to erase anything they had written of his own sayings that was not part of the Qur’an. (Dr. Muhammad Abu Laylah, The Qur’an and the Gospels – A Comparative Study [Al-Falah Foundation for Translation, Publication & Distribution, Third edition, 2005], p. 55; source)
I have the feeling that you’ll be somewhat familiar with these quotes, since I found it on the same website (and the same page) as your Musnad Ahmad quotes. And I was slightly disappointed that I found it on an anti-Islam website(?). And even more disappointed that you need to quote those Musnad Ahmad Hadiths knowing full well that the answers to your argument against them can be found on the same page as the original quotes themselves. Why ask the question when the answer was right there?
Lastly MK, I think that you should mention the source of your quotations in the future. Perhaps you were too ashamed to admit that you need to dig as deep as you did to find the base for your argument, but IMHO I don’t think that we should use an anti-Islam website to find a dalil which were to be used against a fellow Muslim on the first place.
I’ll address your other points later, insya Allah.
This latest development have made me suspicious of your motives, and made me concerned about your true allegiance.
Al Qur’an 5:57 “O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).”
@ Brother Elijah: You need not worry about my faith in light of Mohammed Khafi’s ‘blasphemous’ arguments, but thanks for your concerns. 🙂
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Aluang Anak Bayang: I’m a Javanese Indonesian, so nice try! And don’t give me those Javanese superiority mumbo jumbo either, I will never buy it!
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Ryuken Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Aluang Anak Bayang: I’m a Javanese Indonesian, so nice try! And don’t give me those Javanese superiority mumbo jumbo either, I will never buy it!If you can easily swallow middle eastern gobbledygooks, sooner or later you will come back to the fold of Kejawen. All your Javanese kins are waiting with open arms.
Arab religion had no place in Javanese society until they clean up their own demons. Words of sexually abused maids in the ME are spreading and burning like wild fire. Javanese are patience, we relax and smile. Either you smile with us or you laugh at us with your arab masters. Your own choice.
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@ Ryuken
@ Brother Elijah: You need not worry about my faith in light of Mohammed Khafi’s ‘blasphemous’ arguments, but thanks for your concerns.
The ‘blasphemous’ argument is derived from your arabs’ influenced opinion.
Next time speak for yourself. The sentence above is misleading for many readers. You tried to make it out as if you are speaking for all Indon moslem at large.
Salam. -
Ryuken,
What you have quoted only confirms that The Prophet had forbidden anybody writing other than Al Quran.
Who exactly authorised Abu Bakr to rescind the instructions of The Prophet? Or are you suggesting that there was somebody else who had God given rights equal to or greater than The Prophet himself?
You chastise me for my source of information, but does that mean that these hadith do not exist?
Let me quote you from another source http://www.readingislam.com:
Prophet Muhammad once said,
“Do not write from me anything except the Qur’an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’an should erase it.” (Al-Bukhari)
By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur’an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur’an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur’an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.
The hadith, this time by Al-Bukhari is very clear to anyone of even limited intelligence, it says “Do not write from me anything except the Qur’an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’an should erase it.”
But the clerics twisted interpretation says “By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur’an on the same sheet”
How twisted the clerics are, they can read things into a simple statement which clearly are not there, but of course this is only to support their belief in Hadith, how powerful the evil one is heh!
Despite Allah stating that Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, you hadith believers still prefer the fabrications and fantasies of hadith, you even have to go to twisted interpretations of hadith to convince yourselves that they overrule Allah’s Word!
Another quote from http://www.readingislam.com for you:
In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.
It certainly causes confusion for those with common sense, but Allah does say:
Allah has now revealed the best HADITH, a Book fully consistent within itself. It marks out both ways (to success and failure) repeating its Messages in diverse forms. Herewith shiver the skins of those who have some idea of the Glory of their Lord, and then, their skins and their hearts soften at Allah’s Reminder. This is the Guidance of Allah, and with it He guides him who seeks guidance. Whereas he who follows a path that Allah has declared to be wrong, goes astray and he cannot find a guide 39:23
The best Hadith, fully consistent!
As to me being blasphemous, that is for Allah to decide, not you! At least I will be able to say that I have upheld His Book and not been lead astray by the writings of men!
Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. 31:6
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Mohammed Khafi, you said:
What you have quoted only confirms that The Prophet had forbidden anybody writing other than Al Quran.
Yes, if it pleases you then it does prove that Rasulullah (s.a.w) had forbidden anybody from writing anything other than Al Qur’an. But you doesn’t seem to care about why he had forbidden such practice. You seemed insistent on believing your own reasoning about the matter. But here they are again anyway, only the parts which I deem as important:
The reason why he supposedly did this was to insure that his words would not get mixed in or confused with the Quran. We must make a clear distinction between the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
Secondly, the Prophet was keen to write down the text of the Qur’an immediately after he received it from God. To ensure the distinction between his own words and the word of God, he warned people not to write down his own prophetic utterances so that they would not be mixed in with God’s words.
As for the Qur’an, the Prophet ordered his Companions to immediately write down the verses that were being revealed to him. On the other hand, he deemed it sufficient for his Companions to preserve his Sunnah in their memories.
Logically, this means that Rasulullah (s.a.w) allowed the Hadith to ‘exist’, albeit only on the hearts and memories of the Sahabahs, and he (s.a.w) had undoubtedly allowed the Sahabahs to practice the Sunnah. Otherwise, Rasulullah (s.a.w) would’ve completely ban the memorizing & practicing of the Hadith & Sunnah by the Sahabahs.
not because his sayings were from him and had nothing to do with his Prophethood; to the contrary, he spoke not from his own desires, but from divine revelation that was being inspired to him. The reason why he ordered his Companions to write down the Qur’an is because it was revealed to him in an exact wording through Jibreel. As for his sayings, the meanings they indicated were inspired from Allah, but the wording with which they were expressed was from the Prophet.
So MK, the Musnad Ahmad Hadiths only proved that Rasulullah (s.a.w) had forbidden the writing down of the Hadith. It didn’t, however, prove that he (s.a.w) had forbidden it because he thinks that it’s a shirk practice or something similar. It seems that the true reason for the prohibition was strictly for the purpose of differentiation, so that the then piecemeal recording of the Qur’an wouldn’t be accidentally mixed with the Hadith.
You chastise me for my source of information, but does that mean that these hadith do not exist?
Yes, it does exist. But the ends doesn’t justify the means, now does it?
The hadith, this time by Al-Bukhari is very clear to anyone of even limited intelligence, it says “Do not write from me anything except the Qur’an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’an should erase it.”
It’s also very clear to anyone of even limited intelligence that the particular hadith didn’t explain why he (s.a.w) forbade the practice. It didn’t mention that the practice of writing down the Hadith is a sin or a shirk, or that the Sahabahs shouldn’t even memorize or practice Rasulullah’s (s.a.w) Hadith and Sunnah because Allah SWT prohibits it.
Let’s think about it, why would Rasulullah (s.a.w) forbade something without giving the reasoning for the prohibition? Perhaps because it was merely a matter of technicality, simply because he (s.a.w) was worried that the Hadith writings would be mistakenly mixed with parts of the then scattered Qur’anic records.
How twisted the clerics are, they can read things into a simple statement which clearly are not there, but of course this is only to support their belief in Hadith.
At the very least the clerics understands the context since they do posses the necessary knowledge, but alas self-interpretations without the proper understanding of the context and the correct knowledge are doomed to blasphemous conclusions.
Don’t you get it? For common Muslims (like me), when it comes to the Qur’an (and Hadith) the choice was whether to believe in the interpretations of the Islamic Scholars whose source of knowledge can be traced throughout the ages, or to believe in yet another 20th century movement who claims that their interpretations are the correct one, and whose real tangible, verifiable religious knowledge is doubtful to the very least.
For us, your movement (Quranists) is no different then the Ahmadiyyah, Qiyadah al Islamiyah, or even the latest Satrio Piningit hogwash, all of whom confidently adamant in believing that their ‘sect’ is the straight path.
how powerful the evil one is heh!
How powerful the evil one, indeed. As he had enticed some people to self-interpret (without having the proper knowledge) the Qur’an so that they may learn the ‘truth’ about right & wrong, the same way he had tricked Adam & Hawa to eat the forbidden fruit so that they may learn the ‘real truth’ about right & wrong.
Wallahu’alam.
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BTW Mohammed Khafi, in case you missed it, these Surahs also used the word “hadith”:
Al Qur’an 18:6 “Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.”
FalaAAallaka bakhiAAun nafsaka AAala atharihim in lam yuminoo bihatha alhadeethi asafan.
By using your reasoning, should we translate this verse into: “Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this hadith.”?
Al Qur’an 51:24 “Has the story reached thee, of the honoured guests of Abraham?”
Hal ataka hadeethu dayfi ibraheema almukrameena
What’s this? A hadith about the honored guests of Abraham? “Has the hadith reached thee, of the honoured guests of Abraham?”
Al Qur’an 12:6 “Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of stories (and events) and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Jacob…”
Wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min taweeli alahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba
Let’s not use double standard, then the verse should be translated into: “Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of hadiths and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Jacob…”
12:101 Al Qur’an “O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,…”
Rabbi qad ataytanee mina almulki waAAallamtanee min taweeli alahadeethi fatira
Perhaps we can translate it as this way: “O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of hadith and events,…”
Al Qur’an 56:81 “Is it such a Message that ye would hold in light esteem?”
Afabihatha alhadeethi antum mudhinoona
Maybe it should be: “Is it such a hadith that ye would hold in light esteem?”
And the clincher,
Al Qur’an 68:44 “So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not”
Fatharnee waman yukaththibu bihatha alhadeethi sanastadrijuhum min haythu la yaAAlamoona
The ‘appropriate’ translation then should be: “So leave Me and him who rejects this hadith; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not”
Trust me, there are many more Surahs where the word “hadith” was used. So tell me MK, should we continue to apply the word “hadith” literally, or should we then consider the proper context?
Again MK, the difference between you and me, and between the conservative ummah and your Quranists friends lies in the interpretation of the Quranic Surahs. We prefer to let the expert do it, while you guys like to ‘butcher’ the Surahs with your own subjective personal interpretations & ‘untrained’ minds.
Wallahu’alam.
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Barry Prima says:
It has apparently escaped your notice that this thread is about Kimi, Bule Mualaf. it is not about Mr Barry Prima
It seems to have escaped your notice too in the next page and the pages afterwards…haha…as well as all over this whole site…,in which you espouse verses from the Quran aplenty where it is nothing to do with the title of the thread….
C’mon lets hear your argument…you haven’t got one have you, you cant explain things like this…you don’t have the sufficient knowledge or insight….just admit it, instead of once again avoiding a straight response….its becoming a pattern..
I can explain the literal and rational absurdities of these verses very well….i want to see what you’ve got first, see if you can actually back up arguments you like to start ,based on your assumed superiority over 1400 years of Islamic scholars…!
Yes as I said the Quran is absurd and irrational on purpose on its surface to those who are led by their egos as it itself says….Khafi can you not understand the basic idea that the universe and everything within it is multi dimensional, everything exist in a relationship to other things on a number of different levels of reality…do I need to give you Quran proof for that as well???
The absurdities are no longer absurdities when the total picture is seen. So I can say its absurd and not absurd, depending on the point of reference.
The word hadith in the quran..
Dude you are way too ridiculous….you spend most of you life attacking Hadith….but you don’t even know what the word Hadith means when Allah uses it in the Quran…..Hadith means statement, story or talk in Arabic,it cannot mean the Hadith as a body of literature as it didn’t exist at the time of revelation, the word is used in reference to the stories of musa and ibrahim amongst many other things..
The Quran ask you not to refer to other stories and statements for things it has clarified or spoke expressly on (even though the clarification process itself is very uncertain) and no hadith scholar would dispute that. No Hadith supporter will use the Hadith as an authority over the Quran.
You claim that the Quran is clear and easy to understand…in what sense does the Quran mean that statement? Certainly not in a literal sense, ask any Arab you know (do u even know any, i doubt it) and they will tell you that one word in Arabic can have many meanings and it is a language of metaphor and hyperbole!There have been many, many people who have made those comments about hadith.
There are many people who have claimed to be abducted by aliens…so you just believe them do you? The problem is that these people (anti hadith ,not alien abductees) are not very credible or scholarly, especially when the specific hadiths you quoted make basic basic errors which I highlighted earlier, such as the meaning of the term 7/70/70,000 in classical Arabic?
It is evident that the sources you quoted are either not from Muslims or even Arabist, but English translation only readers.I am certainly not going to waste my time on disclosing the sources to you
I guess that’s means you don’t know or have the sources…as they are copy and pasted exactly as they are from the evangelical websites where they are not referenced…right??? Nobody would be silly enough to put their names next to such ignorance?
No Mr Barry, you have simply not understood anything about basic Classical Arabic Grammar, or even English Grammar.
You said yourself that Arabic has no neutral gender ,so what more is there to understand, if you do not accept your own argument.??
The beauty of the word Allah is that it escapes the rules of Arabic itself!As for English and epicene pronouns
There is no such thing as epicene pronoun in Arabic,so there!! Even in English the concept was a recent innovation !
To get round this the name Allah would be used on every occasion, instead of using a masculine or feminine ,it would be so absurd and unrelatable to human experience of interdependence. An epicene pronoun as far as I know is a created noun which leaves the gender of the thing in question indefinable, this is not possible in Arabic…there may be exceptions the word Allah itself is one..again the word Allah was not what we questioned, it was the use of he and she in his relationship to us..as the quoted copy and paste said
But the Arabic word ‘Allah’ doesn’t end with ‘Alif Mamduda’ so, it cannot be feminine…..
So there you go Allah cannot be a she, and must be a male in human language when referred to by us in our relationship with him (not in his essence)
If you do not understand gods relationship to man, his simultaneous capacity to be real and unreal, absolute and relative, immanent and transcendent ( tasbih and tanzih)..you cannot explain this matter…. You also need to know about concepts like Kalaam, ad?ma al-‘ayn and dh?t before you can even go there.Just a word of advice: don’t quote especially when its cut and paste without context, especially when you don’t understand the complexity of the argument that you are getting involved in..
As an example, the explanation for the royal we in the quran you used earlier, you quoted the source from the internet, but do you know where it comes from? Well you don’t because the source isn’t referenced to anyone on the site either.
My guess it comes from Hamza Yusuf, as he used the same argument in one of his talks. Hamza is one this generations greatest Ulemas and very well educated in Arabic semantics, he is a firm believer of hadith and tradition. If he discredited Hadith, I would pay a lot of attention. .The fact that Al Quran doesn’t explain lots of things means that those things are not important to saving your soul!
Taking heroin,sabu sabu and crack cocaine are also not mentioned in the Quran so I guess Allah did not think they were also not important when it comes to saving your soul????
If a doctor tells you crack kills, as you a kaafir, corrupt scholar for believing in his hadith as it is not in the quran??????I can give you hundred more examples of things not mentioned in the Quran, that are very important in saving your soul…mind body and soul are a triad, that are interdependent.
The second part is an addition by the followers of hadith
Everyone I know who was born into or converted to Islam has said the first and second part…they are all under the spell of evil ulemas I guess?
So I guess the sahabah did not have to acknowledge that Muhammad was the prophet, nor do we?????
See what I mean about you wanting to strip religion down to nothing eventually, in fact we are all either evil Ulemas or fools lead astray by them…and you and your small band of followers are gods chosen….why don’t you start a cult Khaf??
If that is not your agenda it is the agenda of those you have so foolishly taken as your walis!Here Mr Barry you have missed the whole point of Islam in that it is the only deen given by Allah
It is not Yahudi, Christianity, nor MohammedanismHmm….not sure exactly what you want to say….do you mean din(not deen)…as in way of life….or a relgion in a social/historical sense???
First of all, find out what din means!!!!! Din is a way of life, that encompasses man as a totality as I have stated before:not just an abstract belief,no man in any traditional society ever thought that religion could be like that.Islam means the peace that comes from submission, (with all ones being) arguably all orthodox religions teach that.
Also according to the Quran, Allah did give the din that was different in its form from that given to Muhammad to other prophets including to the Yahudis and Christians..
The Prophet and later through to Al Andalus, where knowledge, learning, arts and science flourished.
You have no historical erudition do you!!
Who were the greatest people in those cultures, did they reject hadith, no they didn’t!! the greatest periods in Islamic history, did not have anti Hadith movements!!!!!
That is a modern invention that originated post colonialism (thanks to your Jewish friend mentioned earlier)at a time when the Muslims lost confidence and belief in themselves..!!
In fact many of the discoveries intellectual and scientific of that period and otherwise were based on Hadith..
Most importantly all these people were not just concerned with saving their souls so they could get to some heaven, .to them the whole universe was gods ayat and the duty and birthright of Muslims to discover, in the process of knowing Allah…that is what is meant by Ibadah!!!
Once again Khafi very very poor, but not surprising from an internet Ulema…in the real world you would not be taken seriously ….even on IM,hardly a bastion of scholarship and religious erudition, you are easily shown up as a tool.
ET said :But just for the record, the earliest Hindu or Vedic scriptures didn’t emphasize one God but a plethora of deities. The monist concept of ‘brahman’
You have some references for that claim?
As far as I’m aware, the oldest surviving texts date from much later than even the Quran, as Hinduism is an oral tradition, is very difficult to say what the original teaching of Hinduism or the Vedas was…
Besides the next sentence goes contrary to Basic Hindu teaching about the cyclical and downward spiral of human spiritual development…..the highest stage of spiritual knowledge was the age of gold in the beginning time, we are in the age of Kali , where the truth of the Vedas will be almost inaccessible, according to HINDU tradition itself….so the traditional Hindu view seemingly supports the Islamic viewpoint that Muhammed is the last prophet, and his ummah is the last Ummah and that Hinduism started off as non dualistic and degenerated into its current seemingly insoluble polytheism…
Nice try ET.are you even a Hindu? That was spoken like a true Orientalist exoticiser(is there such a word?) or alternatively a very `modern yar’ Hindu…
AA said ..I can only surmise that he is betting that you will not open this thread, so he can has the last words.
Another assumption…which is proven wrong by the fact that it took me month to eventually read it..
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Cukurungan says:
Once again Khafi very very poor, but not surprising from an internet Ulema…in the real world you would not be taken seriously
Sorry I do not agree, Prophet Khafi is not very poor at least according himself, btw his thought has been subject for discussion in chatting room of the cheer girls
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Ryuken,
You said:
Yes, if it pleases you then it does prove that Rasulullah (s.a.w) had forbidden anybody from writing anything other than Al Qur’an. But you doesn’t seem to care about why he had forbidden such practice. You seemed insistent on believing your own reasoning about the matter. But here they are again anyway, only the parts which I deem as important:
So you accept that The Prophet didn’t allow anybody to write Hadith.
You are wrong in assuming that I don’t care why he banned the practice. The present day Ummah are being led astray by clerics who appear to have rejected Al Quran in favour of Hadith and Sunnah. There is no clear distinction between the two any more, clerics and so called religious authorities or groups quote hadith after hadith to support their views but seem unable to quote or understand simple verses from Al Quran. I do care, I care very much.You said:
Logically, this means that Rasulullah (s.a.w) allowed the Hadith to ‘exist’, albeit only on the hearts and memories of the Sahabahs, and he (s.a.w) had undoubtedly allowed the Sahabahs to practice the Sunnah. Otherwise, Rasulullah (s.a.w) would’ve completely ban the memorizing & practicing of the Hadith & Sunnah by the Sahabahs.
This assumption is based solely on the hadith stories themselves, I repeat what I have said many times before, that the divine revelation of Al Quran has been promised Allah’s protection, anything else is exposed to the risk of corruption either intentionally or unintentionally. Why is it so difficult for you to believe Allah when he says that Al Quran is all you need?
You said:
Yes, it does exist. But the ends doesn’t justify the means, now does it?
As the ends for me is returning people to Al Quran and Gods Words, then yes it does. I have not forced anybody to do anything against their will, I am not dictating to anybody, I am simply stating my viewpoint. The fact that those hadith are on an anti islamic website simply proves how anti islamic hadith are. There are many many hadith used against Islam and against The Prophet to denigrate both.
You said:
It’s also very clear to anyone of even limited intelligence that the particular hadith didn’t explain why he (s.a.w) forbade the practice. It didn’t mention that the practice of writing down the Hadith is a sin or a shirk, or that the Sahabahs shouldn’t even memorize or practice Rasulullah’s (s.a.w) Hadith and Sunnah because Allah SWT prohibits it.
Allah’s complete and fully detailed Quran explains why The Prophet forbid the practice:
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty. 31:6
It seems strange, first you are saying that we need hadith to explain Al Quran and now you are suggesting that we need hadith to explain hadith. We don’t need them to make Al Quran clear:
“A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a Qur’an that makes things clear. “ 15:1
“We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’an making things clear: “ 36:69
” O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you
much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much: There hath come to
you from Allah a (new) light and a clear Book, “ 5:15
“A.L.R. These are the verses of the clear Book.” 12:1
“These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear “ 26:2
“These are verses of the Qur’an,-a book that makes (things) clear;” 27:1
“These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.” 28:2
“By the Book that makes things clear,” 43:2, 44:2
“And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of
everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.” 16:89As to Sunnah, the only Sunnah we should follow is the Sunnah of Allah:
(This was Our) Sunnah (rule or way) with the Messengers We sent before you (O Muhammad SAW), and you will not find any alteration in Our Sunnah (rule or way, etc.). 17:77
Allah explains that this was in the following verse:
Say: “Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans.” 3:95
You said:
Don’t you get it? For common Muslims (like me), when it comes to the Qur’an (and Hadith) the choice was whether to believe in the interpretations of the Islamic Scholars whose source of knowledge can be traced throughout the ages, or to believe in yet another 20th century movement who claims that their interpretations are the correct one, and whose real tangible, verifiable religious knowledge is doubtful to the very least.
For me it was simply a choice between believing in what Allah tells us in Al Quran that it is complete, perfect and fully detailed, simple to understand and all we need to save our souls, or…… to believe the words of men who say it is not complete, not perfect, nor fully detailed and is so complicated that we need somebody else to explain it to us.
I don’t follow a movement or a sect, I am a Muslim, plain and simple. I follow the Deen of Nabi Ibrahim, as did The Prophet, as The Prophet forbade anybody from writing Hadith, then for me they do not exist, The Sunnah I follow is The Sunnah of Allah, belief in his simple way, and following his light.
” …. ANY who believe in Allah/God, believe in the day of judgement and does good deeds has nothing to fear from Allah/God”
Ryuken thank you for your dissertation on the word hadith in Al Quran, it once again goes to prove that the only true reliable hadith is the Hadith of Allah, you are quite correct that the word hadith is used repeatedly in Al Quran, but you seem to have missed the message of most of them!
Hadith in Classical Arabic means a story or a message, or a recollection, so why do you believe that these stories about The Prophet, which were collected and apparently interpreted by men should have equal weight with Al Quran and in some cases override what Allah has given us in Al Quran? Why have these stories which are open to corruption and not protected by Allah be so important to you? Allah says:
“Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which hadith, besides this do they believe in?” 7:185
“Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.” 31:6
“God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent and points out both ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God’s message. Such is God’s guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.” 39:23
“These are God’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” 45:6
“Which Hadith other than this do they uphold?” 77:50
You said:
We prefer to let the expert do it, while you guys like to ‘butcher’ the Surahs with your own subjective personal interpretations & ‘untrained’ minds.
I choose to believe Allah when he tells me His Quran is simple and easy to understand. You choose to believe people who contradict Allah and tell you that it is not easy, and then rather that helping you to understand Al Quran fill your heads with Arabic traditions, fabrications and lies which denigrate a Great Religion and a Great Prophet. It is the clerics who you so slavishly follow who have done the butchering and their teachings continue to inspire butchery in more ways than one.
Allah warns against blindly following others even to go so far as to telling us not to follow our fathers because they may not know what they were doing:
“And when it is said to them:’Follow what Allah has revealed !’ They say: ’Nay! We will follow what we found our fathers following.’ What! Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?” 2:170
Peace
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Mr Barry,
Is that really the best you can do after having a month to think about it? There are so many inaccuracies in your statements that I am not even going to bother wasting my time in refuting them.
Your comments seem to be turning into incoherent ramblings, I would suggest that you just go back to your therapist for some more treatment, or perhaps back to the clinic and ask for something to calm you down.
You are obviously a person who feels empty and lonely and are desperately searching for something to fill the emptyness, Just go back to your cocktail religion if that is what makes you happy, only you are responsible for your own soul.
@Cuk
Get off the computer, finish your homework then go outside and play with your friends, this discussion is for adults only. -
ET says:
Nice try ET.are you even a Hindu? That was spoken like a true Orientalist exoticiser(is there such a word?) or alternatively a very `modern yar’ Hindu…
Barry Prima, you are an annoying little fellow whose only interest in life seems to be provoking arguments with everybody who might pose a threat to your illusions of spiritual and metaphysical superiority. This islamic navel-gazing is probably something for you to get off on but as far as I am concerned I’m just not interested to enter in ‘pembicaraan buntu’ discussions. So don’t waste your time with me. You’ve tried it before but it didn’t work. It also won’t now.
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Lairedion says:
ET said:
Barry Prima, you are an annoying little fellow whose only interest in life seems to be provoking arguments with everybody who might pose a threat to your illusions of spiritual and metaphysical superiority.
That’s the whole point with Submitters. Paranoia and insecurity. Look what Elijah said earlier:
But please stop at least for now to create doubts in the minds of those who actions don’t speak of anything of Islam to justify their actions by saying “I don’t believe in Hadith”.
No wonder people call Islam a fascist ideology, perfect for the weak and insecure among us….
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@ Cukurungan
Elijah is our little paki friend.
Ryuken claimed to be Javanese (highly doubtful)
Barry Prima is a whitey traitor.
Whether you like it or not, it is un-Javanese to point your gun at you own people.
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Mr Khafi….again no response….no answers…you are a tool indeed. You say you cant be bothered to respond to me, we all know that means you can’t because you don’t get tired of repeating the same copy and paste mantras over and over and over again like a broken rhoma Irama record.
Is that really the best you can do after having a month to think about it? There are so many inaccuracies in your statements that I am not even going to bother wasting my time in refuting them.
You think I spent a month thinking about the idea of someone who wants to tell me how to read a scripture in a language he himself can’t speak.
You are obviously a person who feels empty and lonely and are desperately searching for something to fill the emptyness.
Yes I was feeling empty and lonely for the last month or so living a real life which made me too busy for IM. Such a cliched attempt at insult, which proves again you have no capacity for individual thought.
ET…
I am not the one who picks arguments I only respond to others who attack my beliefs I do not post (or copy and paste as in khafi’s case) about important things without considering first if I know what I am talking about.
You should be thanking me for correcting you on your erroneous assumptions.Lareidon:
You find me very worrying dont you…long may that continue…you can hate Islam forever, you will be the one who reap the suffering of that hatred…just get over it i say.
Islam has existed for 1400 years and has only increased in power and will continue doing so.you anti islamophobia wont change shit. -
ET
So don’t waste your time with me. You’ve tried it before but it didn’t work. It also won’t now.
I have never considered you interesting, annoying or evil enough to respond to in detail, that comment just popped up in the middle of something I was reading and struck me as pretty silly and oversweeping in its scope so I just made a small response to it, although admit my contempt towards khafi got carried over in the response..sorry..honestly.
Please feel free to ignore me and I will ignore you too…and no hard feelings!
I have not forced anybody to do anything against their will, I am not dictating to anybody, I am simply stating my viewpoint. The fact that those hadith are on an anti islamic website simply proves how anti islamic hadith are.
You spoil your pretence to humility and simplicity by calling all the ulema over 1400 years evil, deluded etc actually you don’t stop at that, you attack people like me and elijah, ryuken etc as well who are actually willing to learn from others saying we are their tools and thus evil and corrupt too. That means 99% of the worlds muslims are fools and your’e not (in your opinion).
You try so hard to come across and liberal, caring etc but the real feelings that inform your ideology always creep through.
That is why people have a problem with the likes of you.
That and you don’t know shit about arabic, but claim to be able to be able to understand the quran and derive the right meaning.
The fact that thee hadiths apear on so many sites (exactly in the same words as you quote them) does not mean the hadith are wrong, as the anti islamist also think the quran is false and use that on their sites too we are not going to let them dictate to us what right and wrong is!!
You can’t argue very well can’t you???
Go back to Bible college and devise a new stratergy, coz the current one ain’t gonna work..
The Prophet, as The Prophet forbade anybody from writing Hadith, then for me they do not exist
He forbade them in a Hadith but you said you don’t believe in them???? The quran itself does not forbid hadith literature, (your feebles attempt to show they do, only show you as even more ignorant!) In fact it says in the prophet’s we have a great example especially Muhammed.
by men should have equal weight with Al Quran and in some cases override what Allah has given us in Al Quran?
It is am axiomatic rule (maybe not always followed) that a Hadith can never overrule the quran, however the question of what the quran actually means and says is something we can never reach a consensus about that. For many reasons already explained…especially when fools who dont even speak arabic think they can actually add something meaningful to the debate about it…
I have upheld His Book
You can say you upheld this book, after learning how to speak classical arabic and studying it for many years under teachers who still live within the traditional world of islam after that you might be worth listening to.
That would be the case if you wanted to be considered to be knowledgable and since in any filed of learning..Until then you have only upheld your own imagination and weaknesses.It is apparent that if you are not a bible basher,you are a muslim who is ashamed of his religion and wants to make it acceptable to western mindsets.You want to take out of it what they wont like.
Why have these stories which are open to corruption important to you..
Because they are part of the method of preserving the prophets life and the culture of islam and its values without the sunnah and the hadith alot of aspects of islamic life would be lost..most importantly the islamic imagination would be lost too.
The fact that they are and could be corrupted does not mean we can not take whats good from them..and their is a lot that is good and inspiring…any piece of traditional world literature in the modern world has possibly been corrupted, it doesn’t mean there is nothing of value left in it.
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schmerly says:
All this talk about religion gets pretty heavy at times, I don’t have any religion which suits me just fine, lets face it ALL religions are just man made, so when are people going to realise there ‘aint no God, Allah! or whatever you want to call it, the world managed OK before religious brainwashing came along.
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All this talk about religion gets pretty heavy at times, I don’t have any religion which suits me just fine
My dog and my cows also do not have any religion and both of them just fine like you
Whether you like it or not, it is un-Javanese to point your gun at you own people.
If prophet khafi referring his quote to Serat Centini or Darmo Gandul, I will not bother but he mocked our Penghulu and our Ustadz Kampung with the stupid Jew reference of course I can not stay silence
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You can’t beat contented cows, or contented pigs for that matter, because their not.
BRAINWASHED!!!! -
diego says:
@Cuk
I thought you’re a PKS muslim, that means, quite arabized. Then, how come you have dogs? I know some devout muslims who are afraid (yes, afraid) of dogs. Once I invited them to my apartment, and they sho-shoed my dogs, just a like 5-years old kid, kind of frightened the dogs would touch them, and I could hear the sound “eeek” coming out of their mouth. It was amusing to watch.
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@Cuk
What Jew reference are you referring to nak?
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I thought you’re a PKS muslim, that means, quite arabized. Then, how come you have dogs? I know some devout muslims who are afraid (yes, afraid) of dogs.
Oh my Gun, why you thought so …see my gravatar …Am I look likes a devout Muslim? … I am only a humble dirty Muslim who want to look good by ridiculing other
Btw, dog is not Muslim enemy even grand children of Muslim prophet also had a dog and the only animal will be granted to heaven, it is also a dog.
What Jew reference are you referring to nak?
Your Quran creation
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Mr Barry Prima,
I have already posted this on another thread, but really haven’t the time to indulge you more at the moment.
You have had my answers to your questions repeatedly, you simply fail to comprehend them.
Your obvious contemp and hatred, your use of insults and profanities, and your futile attempts at character assassination make it clear to me and I would think many others that you know absolutely nothing about Islam other than what you have been brainwashed into thinking by your teachers.
Let me remind you of some verses from Al Quran:
“This Qur’an guides to that which is more upright, and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good work that they will have a bountiful reward.” 17:9”And be humble in how you walk and lower your voice. For the harshest of all voices is the donkey’s voice.” 31:19
”Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.” 16:125
”Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one, which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy may become your best friend.” 41:34
”And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the Earth, it has nowhere to settle.” 14:26
”And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the Earth insolently. For God does not like the arrogant show offs.” 31:18
”O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.” 49:11
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Lairedion
You said:
That’s the whole point with Submitters. Paranoia and insecurity. Look what Elijah said earlier:
But please stop at least for now to create doubts in the minds of those who actions don’t speak of anything of Islam to justify their actions by saying “I don’t believe in Hadith”.
No wonder people call Islam a fascist ideology, perfect for the weak and insecure among us….
I don’t mind if you call me paranoid and insecure, and whenever I realise a mistake I try my best to admit it and try to rectify myself.
I was talking to one of my Muslim brothers, Khafi, because I considered it crucial for our lives after death which depend upon the correctness of beliefs.
We shouldn’t presume anything about the intentions of others. It might have appeared to you to be a sense of insecurity and paranoia, but the actual motive was this:
Sayyidina Abdullah ibn Amr (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger (SAW)
said, “The same things will be faced by my people as the Children of Israel faced as a shoe compares with (its pairing) shoe, to the extent that
if there was anyone of them to have approached his mother (for sexual
intercourse) then there will be in my people who would do that. And the
Children of Israel divided into seventy-two sects and my people will divide
into seventy-three sects, all of whom will go into the Fire except the one
. “The Companions (RA) asked (him), “Who are they, O
Messenger of Allah (SAW)”. He said, “(Who follow) what I am on and my
Companions (are on).”
Sunan Tirmizi 2650Note the sentence before the one you quoted
So, please sacrifice your money, time and effort to fly to Madina University to do a PhD in Usoolul Hadith, and then make your mind.
Would you prefer to be operated upon by a surgeon who may be intelligent, honest, capable , sincere but should preferably be more experienced before he perfoms surgery. I like Khafi’s translations nonetheless Life and death is a delicate issue. We need to take precautions before reaching conclusions about our faith and beliefs. Faith is not a prerogative, it is essential and central to salvation, it is essntial this very moment because death is unpredictable. I didn’t discourage him from learning, I encouraged cautious learning.
I would not pass a judgement about whether a religion is fascist or not, especially when I haven’t personally studied and tried to know it as its scholars actually see it.
May God bless us all with goodness in this world and the next.
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Assalamu Alaikum
Brother BarryYou can be more polite and concise. People of the same Qibla should care for each others’ Aakhirah ( The Hereafter). Being right or wrong is something else, but sometimes our attitude can repel someone from accepting what is right and can impede us in accepting if the other is right.
A Mumin (the one who attains to Faith) is delighted by Nahi Anil Munkar (Dicouraging and Forbidding the Wrong), so I expect from you a Mumin’s response.
I would seek Khafi’s help in appropriately translating Nahi Anil Munkar.
Assalamu Alaikum
Comment on “Islam Revert”.
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Ryuken,
I am sure that The Prophet would not have lead people astray from Allah’s words in Al Quran, But I repeat that Allah has promised to protect His Words, and has never given an undertaking to protect Sunnah and Hadith. It is your Hadith which record that The Prophet forbade anybody writing and collecting anything from him other than Al Quran. You are a follower of Hadith will you just ignore this one?
As I have mentioned here on this site the one occasion that it could be expected that The Prophets words would be correctly recorded was The Prophets last sermon before he died, this was witnessed by thousands of people, but strangely appears in three forms, one recording The Prophet as saying ” I leave you Al Quran and My Sunnah, another with The Prophet saying ” I leave you Al Quran, my Sunnah and my family, and the third in which The Prophet says ” I leave you Al Quran”.
If such an important message which was witnessed by thousands of The Prophets followers is corrupted what makes you think that the clerics will not fabricate or modify other sayings or actions of The Prophet?
You quoted the following verses, suggesting that I had been using alternative twisted translations:
45:6 Yusuf Ali: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
45:6 Shakir: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?
45:6 Pickthal: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?
I don’t know what you mean by twisted, perhaps it is the mention of the word hadith?
Lets just look at the Arabic shall we?
?45:6 ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????
For those who cannot read arabic, which seems to include you Ryuken it says:
Tilka ayatu Allahi natlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAda Allahi waayatihi yu/minoona
As you see Allah himself uses the word Hadith! It seems that it is you who are using an alternative/twisted translation.
These are the (Signs, Messages, Portents, Messages) of Allah We convey to you with Truth. Then, in what HADITH, if not in Allah and His Verses, will they believe?
You said:
It would appear that you yourself are the one who needs help in translations skills?
The Schisms in Islam started with Sunni and Shia, both of them deviating from Allah’s book with their own Hadith stories to support their own views, how can somebody who returns to the uncorrupted Word of Allah, Al Quran, be part of a sect?
It is Allah who says his Word is Complete, Perfect and Fully Detailed, those who need Sunnah and Hadith are rejecting these words of Allah and calling Him a liar!
@Cuk
I see you haven’t learn’t much Cuk. I am no prophet, but thanks anyway for the compliment. All the evidence which you say I don’t have is there in Al Quran, maybe you should take the time to read it for yourself, it may be quite enlightening for you!
You have once again shown your level of intelligence by your comments about Hitler and the Nazis. If you are unable to argue your points in a rational, intelligent manner maybe it would be better for you to go and get an education rather than wasting your time on here.
Peace