FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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justin et says:
Shloka, the sad truth about our rightist leaders is that we have a ton of extremely overqualified ones, but the media does their best to make them look like wackjobs and marginalize them. It takes a Bush or a McCain to get a Republican in office these days. Like I said, that will change in the next ten years or so, but for now, you have to be one of the greatest American heroes or ride the coattails of Bush Sr. to get to where they are. Meanwhile, the 11-year-old, democracy-hating, cultural-relativist, Nazi-marrying, son of an anthropologist (they’re on the far left fringes of academia) and a polygamist Muslim, who’s willing to negotiate with Iranian terrorists and who thinks there are 57 states Obama is the media’s darling because he’s cute and he sounds good. Thank God the blogosphere is making the MSM more irrelevant every day.
Actually, I think that Albania has the highest birthrate in Europe, around 3 per couple. Also, are you sure that it’s not IReland where they’re having the most babies in Europe, if we’re talking about Western Europe, I mean? I don’t have stats on that, but I would imagine that the most babies would be coming from the most Catholic country, especially since the Protestant Republic of Northern Ireland has sovereignty now. Iceland has a pretty low population, I thought, but that would also make sense if they were having more babies. Those far Northern countries aren’t very densely populated. You should read John Keegan’s ‘The Second World War,’ the part about how the Finns were outnumbered 100 to 1 by the Nazis but they still managed to defeat them with ease because they used old-school logging methods and technology to isolate them in the forest, where they froze to death.
Europe’s will is waining, I think. Not across the board, but in Britain certainly, and Italy, where there was never a strong sense of patriotism, and where they’ve been on the verge of civil war since they reunified in 1945 thanks to their insistence on maintaining state religion, as always happens in the post-colonial era, with the notable exception of Israel, but state religion is really only theoretical there. They’re waiting for the US to bail them out again. They need a Churchill. They are, to their credit, leaning much farther right these days, though, but they were far too far left to begin with, so that’s really just the pendulum righting itself. Denmark has an anti-Islam party headed up by my man Geert WIlders, the dude who made ‘Fitna:’ http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/157/fitna/, Italy reelected Berlusconi and France has Sarkozy. France has toughened considerably lately, at least in terms of their immigration policy and civil measures generally, and they have the best anti-terrorist organization in Europe, if not the world (now that the problem is damn near out of hand, of course).
And back to the birthrates, Egypt is starting to issue public service announcements and advertising promoting birth control, and the government is starting to finance free birth control. They know that Europe is closing their gates and that their higher educational system is not getting their kids into free-world grad schools anymore, despite their having the best higher ed. in the Muslim world (which earns them a rank of 106 out of 130 countries, mind you: http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gcr/africa/egypt.pdf). They also know that if McCain is elected they will be completely cut off by the US for continuing to allow the Saudis to run their “educational” system, for lowering the age of marriage to 9, and for relegalizing fgm. We’re done playing with dictators. The Brits may prefer them because they’re easier to deal with than democratically-elected leaders, but we’re just about done with them, Mubarak especially. They’re screwed without US aid. They’ve survived by parasitizing us ever since the British left in the 1930’s.
I actually do think there’s a lot of hope for Iran, though. Everyone in Iran who is over 30 has an Arabic name, and nobody under 30 does. That reflects that a full 2 generations have overcome Islam. They’re done with Islam. They’re done with dictatorships. Their identity was never tied up in Islam the way it is with the Arabs and the Pakis. We already have their hearts and minds. They’re obsessed with Western culture and government and cannot get enough of the Internet. Ali Sina says that only 10% of the population consists of practicing Muslims, and this is in a country with a per capita income of $1200/year, and they get paid by the government to go to the mosque and when they go they get fed. How many of those folks go out of devotion? The very name the “Islamic Republic of Iran” is a case of “he who doth protest too much.” I really do think that we would be greeted as liberators if were to invade Iran. It would be a matter of knocking out Ahmedinejad and the mullahs, and any insurgency that popped up (or moved East). Also, the Iranians once had a revolution because they hated their dictatorship. They assumed responisbility for their own fates, something real Muslims have never done unless instructed to by mullahs or terrorists networks. Now with the Internet, they know about democracy and they won’t be willing to settle for anything less. Iran will be the first Muslim country to go free-world. Mark my words. I just hope we don’t leave Israel to deal with them on their own, because, while they may be able to knock out the administration, they can’t handle an insurgency and they certainly can’t see it through long enough to install a democracy. But we can, especially with 15 of the 18 benchmarks hit in Iraq, with Al Qaeda decimated, and with the vast majority of the population behind us. And rebuilding won’t be an issue like it is in Iraq because the Iranians are simply smarter and harder-working and I don’t foresee anything close to the amount of destruction in Iraq. They’re humanized, not Arabized, and they’ve been un-Arabizing themselves of whatever Arabization remained for 30 years. That’s one hell of a head start in our favor. Bear in mind that almost all the great Islamic scholarship was carried out by Iranians. Without Iran, the brain of Islam, Muslims are left with nothing respectable in their camp. And in my experience, Iranians just aren’t creepy braiwashed zombies like every Muslim (and Mormon) I’ve ever met. They just don’t have that characteristic wall of narcissism that precludes any sort of genuine interaction with people that all cult members have. ANd I think that a lot of Muslims are afraid to leave Islam because they know that without it they will have no identity, but Iranians have an identity that is completely independent of Islam, especially the younger people, who haven’t had it crammed down their throats at home. I know several Iranians, but I’ve never met an Iranian Muslim.
But us being in Afganistan is like trimming a weed without pulling out the Saudi root. The Taliban is not the problem. The Taliban, sadly, was the best thing that had happened to Afghanistan for 1000 years before the US showed up in 2001. Read this: http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_afghan-reply.htm . Al Qaeda took advantage of the indigenous Pashtun hospitality which would never boot them out because that’s just how they are, not the Taliban. I’m not defending the Taliban, but I don’t think that Afghanistan is really the problem without Al Qaeda among them. I do think the Afghan women are glad that we were there, though. We so half-assed it in Afghanistan. It’s still a theocratic dictatorship. I love how Muslims (and only Muslims) regard installing a democracy as Western imperialism, again demonstrating their pride in their lack of a basic primary-school education, as if we were going to choose their leaders, as if that were how democracy worked. They just don’t get that it would empower them. Or maybe they fear themselves more than a corrupt, self-interested dictator who will only eventually be assassinated and replaced by the guy who had him killed. I think they fear the female vote. They should. It will be Islam’s undoing, like every marker of progress and civilization.
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Cukurungan says:
I would be interested to know where you got those stats, Cuk, because it evidently wasn;t UNESCO or Anmesty International. They do support my point about hopeless Russians, though, if you count the ex-Russians as Russians. And being a sex slave does not make a woman happy. Equality and dignity make women happy.
My girls your statistic does not come from UNESCO or Amnesty International but from FaithFreedom.ORG, the entity who could do anything except lying, here below more neutral and accurate link:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_fem-health-suicide-rate-females
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_tot_fer_rat-people-total-fertility-rate
Check by yourself that the Muslim women so eager for giving life (baby) and do not want to die because the Muslim women so happy to continually replenish our fighter who died in battle field….our women do not need go to war but they have to ensure the new fighter will be reborn again and again
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Purba Negoro says:
Re Justin
I am so sick of his psuedo-intellectual poorly disguised rant at something he comprehends not only poorly, but has no understanding of Islam within Indonesia at all.
I will return rebut at least some of the huge quanta of verbal diarrhea from Justin. There is only so much sh*t one may wade through before the stench overpowers.
Honestly- and this is not only from your atypical a Javanese Kejawen Muslim who also happens to have a sizeable number of Catholic family members the outright stupidity, erroneous assumptions, selective cherry-picking of non-contradicting data, reliance on argumentum ad reductio absurdum- is appalling and extremely offensive.
How dare some ineloquent ignoramus lecture us on our own society? Well- two can play at that game, and attacking America and its delinquent society is akin to fish in a barrel.
Ffrom Shloka too I would expect a far better comprehension of his own history, especially since Gujarati traders are believed to have brought SUFI Islam to Indonesia, never mind the issues of Hindu extremist covert strategies, Pakistani Intel agitation of Muslim Indians for political agendas would be foremost in his mind.
I understand I may not succeed convincing others of deep-set and occasionally justified prejudices and the total intellectual paucity of Justin or even convince on argumenting and disproving his trite arguments- but as an Indonesian abangan Muslim, like the MAJORITY of all Indonesians, I have a duty to try.
Extremist Islam and orthodox Sunni ISlam just like FGM in Indonesia- is negligible to the point of non-existence.
How possibly can this intellectual adolescent comprehend the fact that Islamics are monitored, scrutinised and harangued by Badan Intel Negara- with specific isolated prison system especially to detain them- not to mention the hundred or so that became “Missing Perons” under Suharto- also a Muslim?
What of Gegana, Brimob, Delta 88, Kopassus, Kostrad etc all indoctrinated in the Prinsip Panca Sila- the nationallst ideology?
The prime factual errpr is that Indonesia is a not merely Sunni muslim BUT more importantly a SUFI muslim society. The difference is black and white- exactly like the total and contrasting difference between American pay-for-pray mega-church faith healers and the private piuos Calvinist.
Once again, we see the Ameican trait at total oversimplification- to cater for their intellectually substandard society. Do we need a reminder again (with reference to discrediting the ‘expertise’ of Justin) about how few Americans can even identify their own nation on a globe.
Do we need reminding again of how America ranks poorly in literacy and numeracy.
Justin is attacjking a lreigion from the persepctive of a denizern of a nation that claims God created the Erath in seven days as incontrivertible fact wityhin its’ school system. Not even a Suadi madrassa is that backward.
Kentucky’s Intelligent Design Museuem- detailing the facts about Jonah in the wahle?
Utterly pathetic- the poinjt I am making is if we examine the intellectual baqckground of Justin- it is far worse comparatively than many extremist hell-holes.Plato so aptly stated the universal truth, “As empty vessels make the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest blabbers,
So to does Justin fit this truth
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Nationmaster goes by the Saudi-espoused stats, the same ones that tell you that rape doesn’t occur in Muslim countries, or that there’s no homosexuality even though Egyptian, Tunisan, Moroccan, and Turkish teenage boys all have boyfriends. They regard the truth as “defamation of ‘religion,'” so if anyone takes those stats (which they do, but not Iran or Saudi Arabia because the free world is kept outside those 2 nations), they are suppressed by Nationmaster. Read this article if you actually think that Muslim women are happy: http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/326354. All the nations mentioned have a common thread, with the exception of Nepal, where people are starving, and Guatemala, where unsolved murder is a rampant phenomenon.
And Purba Negoro, you obviously didn’t even catch the gist of anything we were talking about since you apparently never caught on to the fact that Shloka and I are women, but I will admit that I understand Islam generally and its place it the Middle East, the Near East, Pakistan, and Bangladesh than I do in Indonesia, Malaysia, Burma, or Thailand. Oddly, I still understand Islam better than most Indonesian Muslims, which was one of the point I made above which you obviously didn’t read: that many Muslims are better than Islam and simply don’t understand how evil it truly is. I guess you all really have become true Muslims in that you’re incapable of coping with cognitive dissonance and believe the imams who tells you that the Koran can only be understood in Arabic, even though that defies the single most basic principle of linguistics.
And call American ‘society’ delinquent all you want. We have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, despite having legal handguns, but you were probably referring to all the truth in our news and all the Adam’s apple that’s flashed on American TV, or you’re one of those genuises who thinks that Hollywood = America or who simply can’t conceive of a secular society and even equates Hollywood with Christianity. We’re the greatest, most progressive (unless you equate progress with socialism), most prosperous nation in the world, and we got that way by being founded loosely on the British Protestant tradition, by sticking to it, by upholding our civil rights and liberties even at wartime, and by only going to war to fight those who would compromise those values. And while we were founded on the Protestant tradition, we are a very secular country which completely separates Church from state, and therefore your assertion that “a nation that claims God created the Erath [sic] in seven days as incontrivertible [sic[ fact wityhin [sic] its’ [sic] school system” is just crazy because there is no scientific concensus as to how the Earth was created, so it just isn’t taught, although the Big Bang is offered as a theory, unlike Saudi madrassas whose idea of “science” is that the Earth is flat and revolves around the sun, that the moon is a lamp, that the stars are arrows being shot at Satan, etc… and if you don’t believe it you get beaten before the imam rapes you.
And somone has to say it. Sufism is retarded. Trying to find a “deeper meaning” and love in violent Koranic passages is like trying to find prophecy and miracles in Mein Kampf. If Islam had any divinity, your “prophet” wouldn’t have been a child-molesting, mentally ill, malignantly narcissistic, a necrophiliac, a rapist, a mass murderer, a caravan looter, a racist, a torturer, etc., who had nothing but hate in both his heart and his scripture, who produced neither miracles nor prophecy, who messed up every single scientific and historical reference he ever made on the record, who outlawed adoption so that he could sexually assault his own brain damaged 6-year-old niece when he was 50, or who beheaded Saffiya’s father, tortured her husband to death, and then raped her the very same day, and all that’s still easier to stomach than Rayhana’s story.
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Shloka says:
@ Purba Negoro,
So glad to finally see you here. You are the reason I’m here and posting my 230th post after I was hooked. Patung, Purba Negero started me posting on your IM and I’ve caused many others to post as well, thus spicing up many threads I’m sure. 😉
Yes Purba Negero, three religions- Hinduism, Buddhism and finally Islam has been brought to Indonesia via India. I pride myself on knowing my history well and I’ve got the highest marks in history in my recent 10th standard examinations. However, you made an entirely false assumption about any female circumcision in Hinduism(or Buddhism, which was also a strong faith in pre Islamic Java) There are indeed some Christians\ Jews in Africa who have female circumcision, along with African animists, however, female circumcision absolutely doesn’t happen in any known Hindu\Buddhist communities anywhere on Earth. This is a fact. While Hinduism\Buddhism has some misogynistic practices and beliefs, this simply isn’t one of them. Also, no Christian\Jewish community outside of Africa indulges in this practice today,(many of African Christians doing it are converts from Islam) while as I’ve written in my previous posts, loads of non African Muslims do.
You are quite correct in your statement that Islam came to Indonesia from India via Gujarati traders, who had converted to Islam. Well,female circumcision was known in Africa and the Middle East in the Prophet’s time. Although neither male nor female circumcision is mentioned in the Koran, in the two other sources of Islamic Law, the Sunnah and the Hadith have references to it. There’s an alleged hadith by Prophet Mohammed to Umm Attiya, a woman who excised girls, “Do not cut too harshly.” I don’t have the time or energy to post those stuff again, so please go and read my previous posts where various Muslim scholars support FGM, citing the hadiths and sunnah.
Islam has four schools of thought, one of them the Shafi school, considers it mandatory, the others merely consider it makrumah (honorable). The Shafi school prevails in Egypt, parts of Yemen, Kurdistan, Sri Lanka, India and of course your Indonesia and Malaysia. Female circumcision, from mild to extreme, happens in Muslim communities in all these places. It was also Shafis from parts of Egypt and Yemen (places having FGM) who converted Gujarati trading communities like the Bohras to Islam. The Bohras and other Gujarati Muslim traders following the Shafi school, preached Islam in your archipelago. They also preached female circumcision, which they had learnt from Shafi Muslim missionaries, which is how you adopted this practice.
Female circumcision is an age old African practice, as has been rightly pointed out by some. In Africa the communities who do it are the Muslims and some Christian and Jewish communities. However, outside Africa female circumcision is exclusively the domain of Muslims, although its not prevalent among all Muslims. Yet the Shafi branch of Islam has carried female circumcision to loads of regions, which previously knew nothing of this practice. Another point which you might find of interest is that- female circumcision doesn’t occur anywhere on Earth where male circumcision does not, but only male circumcision too occurs in a lot of places where female circumcision doesn’t. Hindu boys in India or other Hindu communities aren’t circumcised either. So you learnt both male and female circumcision via India, but via Indian Muslims belonging to the Shafi school. There’s nothing in the entire lot of Hindu texts or Hindu schools of thought advocating or even showing awareness of circumcision, either male or female. As I’ve said there were and still are some sexist practices in Hinduism, but FGM simply isn’t one of them.
For more information, read through justin et’s links. Justin et’s provided many useful links specifically about the FGM-Islam link, and I’d especially recommend her last link,”Does Yusuf mean liar in Arabic?” A Muslim scholar named Yusuf had also tried to blame Indonesian female circumcision on Indonesia’s pre Islamic past, and that thread corrects him. http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1237&Itemid=64
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paul swartz says:
I dont undersatnd either male or female mutilation. In the male mutilation the men looses pleasure in the glande and it deserves women to keep more time. In the FGM it deserves males to calm female excitations. I dont know what is worst. But between both is better the FGM because it will preserve the balance of psicology
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Either way it’s mostly female sexual pleasure that suffers. With women, the whole point is to destroy one’s ability to achieve orgasm, and with men, regardless of the point, the woman is less likely to be satisfied because circumcised men have issues with premature ejaculation more frequently, and usually for life, whereas with uncircumcised men they usually have more control once they’ve outgrown their teenage years. Some men say that circumcision has destroyed their sex drive, but I think that’s usually guys who were ritually circumcised as older children who remember the experience and are traumatized by it. That also provides another explanation for why Muslims are so screwed-up sexually, whereas Jews aren’t even though Jewish men are circumcised. They get circumcised as babies but Muslims almost always do it as older children. You would think they would get with the program and stop mutilating their kids if their whole goal in life is to breed for Allah’s army. The female orgasm serves another purpose besides aiding in natural selection (which is non-existent wherever there are arranged marriages): it aids in fertilization. The cervix actually makes grabbing motions at the sperm during orgasm, which significantly lessens the sperm’s journey, which is quite significant relative to their size, so that more of them make it to their target. More Muslim “science.”
I don’t know how male circumcision came to be so pervasive in America but I think it’s unfortunate. And most American men say they would have their sons circumcised. When you ask them why they just say “because, Justin, you HAVE to.” I’ll never understand it, probably because nobody can give me a good explanation as to why it’s a good idea, but there are numerous reasons why it’s a bad idea. Another reason to love Mexicans. Their men are amazing in bed. The trouble is finding a cute one without any kids who doesn’t work 80 hours a week.
I read on Islam in Europe that the Finns are about to legalize male circumcision. I hope it doesn’t happen. I think it’s great that it’s illegal there. There comes a time when civilized people have to reinterpret their religious practices and just decide to stop doing things that are inhumane, like mutilating their children and halal and kosher slaughter. Then again, I don’t understand how people can eat dead, cut-up animals either.
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You can’t generalise about the reason for doing either male or female circumcision – they vary widely from region to region, and in the case of the male variety, even from parent to parent.
Nor can you generalise about their effects, because they are done by hand, and both practitioners and children’s anatomy vary. It is certainly preposterous to claim that either improves sexuality, when each adult is individual. In the nature of things, interfering with something that evolved*/was created to be at the centre of the passing on of the genes, is much more likely to damage than good.
*And if you want to compare the foreskin to the appendix,
1. the appendix is now believed to have a function
2. the appendix is genetically linked to the rest of the digestive tact and could not evolve away to nothing without harm elsewhere. The existence of men born without foreskins indicates that this is not the case for the foreskin. Women’s genital also naturally vary widely, so the same will be true there. -
Women’s genitals vary widely, but even intersex people have something there, be it a large clitoris or a small penis, or whatever. Jews circumcise their children because Abraham did it. That makes no sense to me, and I’m half-Jewish. We don’t sacrifice animals or stone adulterers today, so I don’t see any reason for continuing to circumcise men. Abraham also did it to himself, not some unsuspectiing child who can’t consent to the procedure. There may have well been some purpose to doing so back when sanitation was poor and people were less hygienic, but there’s really no reason to do so today. In fact, if you visit circumstitions.com, many articles say that the incidence of STDs, STIs, and AIDS is higher among circumcised men, which is odd to me, since Latin American and European men are far less likely to be circumcised than American men and they seem to get around more, so it must have something to do with circumcision itself and not the demographics of the men studied, particularly since Russia has nearly a sub-Saharan scale AIDS epidemic. I don’t think that circumcision improves sexuality for either men or women, although I’ve heard of some women getting Type I done voluntarily because their clitoral hoods were too tight, but it seems to me that it would be really painful having that exposed, plus I think it would be unbeneficial during regular, vanilla sex, since the labia minora serves a purpose too, which is to provide some extra clitoral stimulation during regular intercourse by interconnecting the whole system. That hood is there for a reason too – so you can touch it without any pain, since the clitoris is very, very sensitive. Seems like it would feel like a finger in the eye not having the hood there. Plus it looks all freaky without the hood. I really do think that a lot of those women just don’t know to please themselves so they think there’s wrong with them and assume that they’re somehow deficient or deformed, when in reality, if we women don’t know how to please ourselves, we will simply never be pleased by ourselves or anyone else, since women are very sexually idiosyncratic and men don’t know how to please us unless we let them know how, which we can’t do if we don’t know how.
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Justin, it really is shooting fish in abrrel with you mentally inadequate Septic Tanks (Cockney rhyming slang fomr Yank- as in full of sh*t and cheap sentiment).
You are not only a total idiot- but I assume some Fundamentalist which is even a few steps lower.
Indonesian ISLAM is different to MIddle East orthodoxy.
Middle Easternb orthodoxy is effectively banned.
We do not accept even Indian Hindu orthodoxy.
Even Christianity namely Catholicism and Protestantism is different to that of Europe.We do not ever look up to the Middle-East- we consider them racist, vile, exploitatative (as much so as an American), barbarous, uncultured and uncivilised. But worst is they are dismissive and disrespectful of our ancient traditional shamanist-animist underlying culture and traditions.
We do have a soft spot for Iran, whom are not only so much more deeply cultured and individually intelligent than Americans could ever dream to be, we love the fact they will erase your silly Puritan fantasy of the promised land of Israel whom you collectively delusionally believe you are descended from, despite them hijacking your government and openly insulting the most sacred of your religion, within your homeland.
Destroy the dome of the rock and Omar’s mosque? no biggy, as long as they wipe out the AIPAC funders.The Indonesian Grand Council of Mullahs, Imams and Ulama is hand-picked by the powerful decison makers of military and government so that it is perpetually moderate.
We care nothing for yoiu bible-bashing rants and overt attempst at Conversion.
Sorry- we are not the godless savages you Americans in your delusionary smugness may thiink we are. Not only do we reject almost everything American as you are boastful, conceited, utter simpletons- your society amnd culture is far inferior to even the Dutch- who outrank America in terms of education, teen birth-rates, and technology.
Best of all, you conveniently forget this
Your US American Army – yes the one you Yanks boast the world from the Nazis, despite the hedging and banking going on under the table re Prescott Bush: started compulsory circumcision as a means of preventing balanititis, which the Americans (who were actually intelligent in those days) caused too many rpreventatiuve hospitalisations.Oh no, another checkmate. Sad how facts contravene your dreadful rants.
It’s okay, go have your US haute cuisine aka Happy Meals, hug yourself and blame “Paternalism”, slim attractive people and Commies.
PS-
Your country has the highest body count of all with your wars of corporate imperialsim.As an American, who can be linked as an enabler of mass-murder and devastation via your corrupt democracy and your election of governments who in turn murder as per Iraq Halliburton-KBR oil snatch and grab, you have absolutely no authority- be it intellectual, moral or human to dare lecture down to us.
Your empire is in decline and your rotten society is imploding.
Karma’s a bitch. eh? -
Purba Negoro, half-ass it all you want, lie about it all you want, defend it all you want: ISLAM IS AN INHERENTLY FINDAMENTALIST DOCTRINE. It cannot be reformed, changed, or reinterpeted. All the Islamic texts are very clear that that constitutes bit’a. It can only be half-assed and then misleadingly labeled an non-orthodox. It’s still based on a text and and is an ideology full of nothing but hatred and evil; no divinity, no love, no morality. None. You can mistakenly ascribe those qualities to it, along with a bunch of other humanistic values, but they’re just not there. The reason you regard Middle Eastern Muslims and Americans as “racist, vile, exploitatative [sic] (as much so as an American), barbarous, uncultured and uncivilised full of nothing but hatred and evil” is because (a) Middle Eastern Muslims are real Muslim who only live as Islam dictates, the only notable deviation being some of the “honor” killings which take place, (b) because you are a Muslim, and as such, you struggle to keep yourself as ignorant as possible (or maybe it’s easy for you) and then take pride in that ignorance, (c) because you think like a typical supremacist, intolerant, hateful Muslim. And how non-extremist is this: https://indonesiamatters.com/1025/hizbut-tahrir/? I got it from the top right corner of this very page. Hizbut Tahrir is banned all over Europe, the Middle East, America, and Australia – look it up on the Investigate Project on Terrorism – and yet it finds a home and a following in Indonesia. Pretty telling.
Who do you approve of, Purba Negoro? Sounds to me that the only people who are acceptable to you are Indonesians who practice your specific brand of Islam. That’s about as Muslim (read: intolerant, ignorant, and supremacist) as it gets.
Also, Israel is the most upwardly mobile country on this planet and has been for 60 years. I would love to say that it’s America, but it’s not because of immigration and the Democrats’ determination to destroy the black family unit. That will all change very soon as demographics switch in favor of the right. The gates will close, the borders will be sealed, and the black family unit is already repairing itself, albeit it in a matriachal fashion which is not recognized as progressive by backassward Medieval ignoramuses because they have a hard reconciling the fact that women and children overwhelmingly uplift themselves despite hardship while men cannibalize.
For the record, I’m German Swiss Jewish and Italian. I have blonde hair and blue eyes and am in no way of Middle Eastern descent. Sephardic Jews like me ultimately trace our ancestors to Spain. I was the one who proffered the idea of shipping the Israeli Jews to Utah because I could give a crap about where the holy land is (but you go ahead and assume that you know everything about me and what I think). The Israeli Jews are too good for the hellhole Middle East and they deserve peace. I can say with some experience that Jews are peaceful to a fault (being related to many and being full of argumentative, confrontational Italian blood myself, and being descended from two lawyers, which only makes me more argumentative). The Islamic texts’ incitement to hate and destroy the Jews does not explain the extent of modern Islamic anti-Semitism. Jealousy and a subconscious (and it stays subconscious since being honest with yourselves and coping with cognitive dissonance are the only two things that Muslims are worse at than evolving) awareness of Muslim inadequacy do. Just look at yourselves as a whole, or even just as a nation, or compare pre-Islamic Indonesia to post-Islamic Indonesia.
Like I said before, I’m AMERICAN. I’m a very secular person. In the free world and in legitimate religions, religion is a personal matter, a personal creed, a way of living as individuals. It’s not something that is to be imposed from the top down. We don’t allow religion to dictate our laws or what appears in our media. The only thing you don’t have the right to do in a democracy is not be offended. I’ve never tried to convert anyone to anything. I’ve never tried to shove a Bible in anyone’s face. I don’t even accept the Bible outright. I have my own brand of Christianity. You can do that with real religions – interpret them as you choose and expect everyone to accept your right and your choice to do that. You don’t need some mullah or imam to tell you what to think. You can just decide that the Church made the wrong call 1800 years when they added some of those books to the Bible, like Paul’s Letters and Revelations, and that excluding the Gospel of Mary was the wrong thing to do. But you wouldn’t know that because I don’t talk about my religious beliefs unless some wackjob tries to mistakenly ascribe some to me, along with some nonexistent behaviors and a foreign ethnicity. I talk about the Golden Rule, which is the compass of morality. All religions, by definition, preach morality as based on the Golden Rule. That’s why Islam is not a religion – because it has not one single moral teaching and no concept of the Golden Rule. Muslims (and other cult members like Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses) are the only ones who try to convert people. And Muslims are the only ones who do it by force or who behead Christian girls on the way to school and then leave their heads on the doorstep of a holy place. No other religion is that cruel or even that distasteful. The only other cult that sick was Charles Manson’s merry gang of 10, who were probably only led to do those things because they were so hopped up on hallucinogens.
“Yanks boast the world from the Nazis?” What does that mean? Can anyone translate that into a language I speak (English, French, Italian)? Fewer Americans are circumcising their sons today because women are stepping in and stopping it from being done to their children. Doctors discourage it at hospitals and are ready to explain to new parents that it’s not such a good idea as was once believed, but that’s one of those phenomena that takes time fix, ingrained as it is.
And America was never an empire. We don’t conquer people. Did we conquer Japan? Or did we stop the Shintos and then rebuild their country like we’re doing in Iraq? Did we conquer Western Europe when we saved it from the Nazis? Did we conquer Canada during the French-Indian war, even during the colonial era? We don’t fight wars of “corporate imperialism.” We fight wars against those who would try to compromise our way of life, which is actually very live-and-let-live, not that I would expect a Muslim to understand that line of thinking. We fight evil. We fight horrible dictators, the Taliban, the Nazis, American slave-holders who have no regard for human rights, human dignity, individual rights and freedoms. And thanks for proving my point about how only Muslims regard democracy as imperialism, which makes absolutely zero sense and belies not only a lack of a basic understanding of what democracy is, but of a basic primary-school education, since 7th graders in the free world study government. And our society is not imploding. It’s not progressing right now, I will admit, but that’s what happens whenever there’s a democratic majority in the Legislative branch, but we’re not regressing either. We’re not a theocratic dictatorship, and as anyone who as ever made it all the way through the whole first chapter of any history, government, or poli sci text knows, theocratic dictatorships (as well as fascist and communist dictatorships) first parasitize, then cannibalize. They simply cannot sustain themselves without other countries to parasitize. They never could. You’re doomed. We still have not only the highest GDP and per capita income, but we get to keep it, unlike the Europeans who are determined to destroy themselves with their ridiculous welfare state. We’ve mastered keeping that delicate balance between strong government and big government. That’s why we’re not only the oldest democracy, but we’re still the most successful one. Declining? Retards said that during the Great Depression, which was a worldwide phenomenon just like this economic blip we’re all experiencing. We recovered and we prospered because we’re Americans and that’s what we do, because democracy and capitalism always prevail, because we respect the individual, which is the single most necessary ingredient for progress. Add the Japanese water vapor car, whose prototype is complete, to the mix, and we’ll be free of our dependence on foreign oil and our economy will recover overnight, while the 3rd world will suffer even more, especially if McCain is elected and he cuts off every theocratic dictatorship, which he will, since none of you can survive without American charity, nor have you ever been able to, son. Indonesia is imperialist. You know your corrupt government had a huge hand in what happened in East Timor. You may not admit it, but we reasonable, thinking, decent, moral, ethical, civilized, evolved, outbred folks with acces to the legitimate media do. Indonesia is, like Egypt, Tunisia, and Turkey, a dictatorship with the nerve to masquerade as a Republic. You have no state government. All the power is concentrated in the national government, which is a one-party system backed by the military and a Sharia Constitution, and it goes completely unchecked. Checks and balances, along with elected officials, are the cornerstones of democracy,and without them, it’s just a dictatorship. Your “council of ministers” is an unelected, appointed body of mullahs. You have a religious (Sharia) court! It’s a theocratic dictatorship. At least Iran is honest about what it is and their people are so stupid as to believe all the ridiculous craziness their government-approved media tells them.
And godless? Like arranged marriages, polygamy, child marriage, pedophilia, female genital mutilation, suppressing the truth about science in schools, sex slavery masquerading as “marriage,” no free press, forced conversions, beheading Christian girls on the way to school and tieing Buddhists to train tracks? Pwned, son.
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Lairedion says:
justin et,
While I mostly agree with your critique on Islam and your plight for equal rights for women, at least try to be fair bring some nuance in your message.
As a non-Caucasian I’m not impressed at all with the short-visioned WASP politics of the last 8 years and grandpa McCain is eager to continue these destructive politics. Capitalism is not always progress and can have destructive effects on Third World economies, nature and wildlife. Have you ever heard of Freeport-McRoran Mining in Papua? Today I read that even Obama no longer objects drilling for oil in Alaska. When will the thirst for more power and exhausting of natural resources justified by white lies like capitalism and progress ever end? It’s never enough, innit?
Not everybody is competitive enough or wants to participate in the free market and some people need attention and compassion from those more lucky. But hey, you need to pay your mortgages and drive your 3rd or 4th car so pretty much everything is allowed, aye?
Purba Negoro may exaggerate somewhat but he has raised some valid points on American imperialism.
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That also provides another explanation for why Muslims are so screwed-up sexually, whereas Jews aren’t even though Jewish men are circumcised. They get circumcised as babies but Muslims almost always do it as older children.
Many thank for your concern on our genital and sex life, we have to admit that Indonesia Muslim Sex Life is so appealing especially if it is compared with USA sex life achievement as top ten Ranked by HIV/AIDS population as below :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate
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@ Hugh 7,
In the world today, 120 million women are “circumcised”. About 15% of them, 18 million or thereabout, undergo “infibulation.” In infibulation, the entire external genitalia is removed. This is analogous to castrating a man. These women who are infibulated, are taken by their mothers at about age 4-8 to a circumciser.Many die from the procedure, it takes these women 10 minutes to pee afterwards. Are 18 million little boys taken by their dads to be castrated?
Furthermore everytime that these women have children, which is many times more than your avarage Western woman, she has to be cut open and then stitched up again. I gather you aren’t a woman. Please don’t undermine the trauma these women undergo.
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Shloka:
How does it undermine the trauma (and harm and loss and human rights violation) that women undergo to point out that both men and women undergo trauma and harm and loss and human rights violation from genital cutting? I don’t know the source of your figures, and I don’t know how many is “many” who die. 22 youths have died of circumcision in the Eastern Cape Province alone in the last few weeks, and they are all just as dead as any girl or woman.If anyone were talking about cruelty, you would allow them to to elaborate on the cruelty of docking dogs’ tails or cats’ ears without saying “but FGM is so much worse” or accusing them of undermining the trauma that women undergo. Is it because male circumcision is so similar to female genital cutting that we are not allowed to point out how similar they are?
Castration is the removal of the testes. The female equivalent is oophorectomy, removal of the ovaries. While the clitoris is the embryological equivalent of the glans penis, that doesn’t mean they are sensorily equivalent. Sorrells et al. found “circumcision removes the most sensitive part of the penis.”
The campaign against genital cutting would be a lot stronger if we could fight as a united front.
I was replying to Paul Swartz, who said “But between both is better the FGM because it will preserve the balance of psicology”. I disagree, but since I don’t understand his argument, I couldn’t answer it. Perhaps you would like to answer him.
Justin et:
“Abraham also did it to himself, not some unsuspectiing child who can’t consent to the procedure.” Yes he did (or so the story goes), “every male child among you” Gen 17:10 -
Lairedon, I fail to see how Bush’s politics are WASP-y. I think you’re confusing those politics pushed through by our unfortunately Democratic Legislative branch. Internatonally, we’re liberators. We brought democracy to the Middle East. We’re still trying to save Afghans from the Taliban even though Al Qaeda is nearly wiped out there. We respect international human rights. I will admit, though, that turning a blind eye to the atrocities in the Sudan would constitute WASP politics, if it weren’t for the fact that the UN refuses to recognize it due to the influence of the Saudis, which would more correctly make it Arab Muslim politics, both in terms of what’s happening there and in terms of the international community’s response. We can only do so much of the stuff that the UN won’t touch at a time, and we’re just more inclined to go for the country which we have every reason to believe has nuclear weapons and where we know that Al Qaeda, the only sickos crazy enough to attack the continental US, will gravitate. Iraq was personal in a couple of ways. In 2003 AQ Khan was selling nukes all over the place and we had every reason to believe that Saddam was buying. And going to Iraq was simply the right thing to do. That monster should have been deposed during the Gulf War. This is not the colonial era. You can’t invade Kuwait and exterminate the Kurds and expect to get away with it indefinitely.
Domestically, democrats (you know, the ones who overwhelmingly voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 while 80% of Republicans voted in favor of it?) have destroyed the black family unit and are the ones guilty of passing WASP legislation. High taxes and regulations keep minority upstarts down and protect the good old boy network. The (socialist) government monopoly on education keeps blacks in underfunded ghetto schools and prevents them from “infiltrating” good schools. The Left recognizes blacks as inferior and in need of special help and quotas (affirmative action). And then there’s, of course, the Dem’s proud history as segregationists. Republicans support equal rights and always have. I will admit that what I consider to be “equal rights” often conflicts with what my party considers to be “family values” (i.e., they’re overwhelmingly against gay adoption, but so are Dems), but they’re more progressive than the Democrats and they’re certainly not racist. Republicans are the party of Lincoln. More Americans died trying to free the slaves during the Civil War than in all the other wars we’ve ever fought combined. That is a Republican legacy, like just about everything we’ve done that we can be proud of. The last time the Democrats supported us going to war it was during WWII, and it was not because the racist Democrats believed in sparing the Jews from the Third Reich’s/Arab’s slaughter or even because they have a real problem with a totalitarian, colonialist, regressive, evil, parasitic regime taking over the world (as they more than demonstrated by not supporting the Vietnam War), but because THEY WERE SO HAPPY THAT WE FINALLY ALLiED OURSELVES WITH STALIN, which was the most dishonorable thing we’ve ever done, although I do believe that doing so was a necessary evil and I think that history has my back on that account.
And Shloka, I love you, girl, but infibulation is not equivalent to castration. It’s far more extreme than that. Ooectomy (removal of the ovaries) is the female equivalent of castration. Anytime there’s clitoridectomy it’s the equivalent of cutting off the penis. Infibulation takes it even further so as to be more like cutting off a man’s penis and then sewing over the urinary opening. It’s so extreme that there’s no real equivalent of it in men. I would say that maybe Type I fgm (WITHOUT clitoridectomy) is the equivalent of male circumcision, clitoridectomy is like cutting off a penis, and there’s no male equivalent of Type III.
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Hugh, I forgot to add that, while male circumcision is horrible, the pain can be largely alleviated by tieing a string around the penis before cutting, which cuts the sensation in the nerves from passing the string, while there’s no real way to do that in women. Also, in women, even in the most mild forms it still leaves a considerably larger open wound, so much so that Type II often heals into Type III, if you know what I mean. Men may die of infection from circumcision, but they don’t die from hemorrhage like many women do. And there’s no male equivalent of the Somali tradition in which, after the clitoral hood is sliced open and then the clitoris is dug out with a fingernail, all the women gather ’round and plunge their fingers into the hole in order to make sure that nothing remains while blood spurts all over the place. And like I said, fgm is like cutting off a penis (hence the massive amounts of blood loss which often result in death), with the exception of Type I sans clitoridectomy. I also have to disagree that the prepuce of the penis is the most sensitive part. Most of the nerve endings are in the glans itself, and in my experience circumcised men are far more inclined to have issues with premature ejaculation. In fact, lots of circumcised men like to pull back the prepuce during sex in order to increase sensation. But I don’t imagine that messing with any nerves in that area would be a good idea or increase one’s sexual experience. The difference is that men recover and have good sex lives after circumcision, while women do not after clitoridectomy unless, by chance, they’re lucky enough that some of the clitoris wasn’t cut out.
But they’re both awful.
Male circumcision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AwBCElbVkuY
Female genital mutilation: http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1460&Itemid=72
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UNcircumcised men like to pull back the prepuce during sex. My bad.
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@ Hugh 7,
I’m sorry if I sounded rude, which on re- reading my post addressed to you, I know I did. I apologise. I come from a non circumcising culture, in my country excepting the Muslims, FGM and MGM are both considered abhorrent. In addition, I haven’t seen an adult man’s penis, so maybe its my ignorance rather than my insensitivity. Being a girl, I can quite imagine how a girl who’s undergone cliterectomy would feel. I have a Bohra Muslim classmate. A couple of years ago, she told a few of her closest friends, including me that there’d be a celebration in her house as she’d just reached puberty, but it would be a Muslim only thing so we’d not be invited. Then she missed school for a couple of weeks. We learnt that she’d been “circumcised” and now it takes her 10 minutes to pee.
Yes of course, FGM and MGM are very similar on many levels. Correct me if I’m wrong , but United States along with many nations bans only male circumcision, not female. Soon many men will sue for unequal protection under the law. 😉
I have recently done a project on FGM. I recommend to you two excellent books I’ve read during the course of my research, Waris Dirie’s “Desert Flower” and Ayaan Ali Hirsi’s “Infidel” Waris and Ayaan Ali Hirsi both hail from Somalia. Waris is one of 12 children of her parents, Hirsi Ali has a brother and a sister. While both Waris’s brothers and Hirsi Ali’s brother were “circumcised” their foreskins were removed, while the horrifying account of the “circumcision” of these two women can’t be adequately described by me here.
There were little boys captured by Arabs in the past and turned into eunuchs to guard their harems, but not many parents take their sons to be routinely castrated. In addition, women have babies, men don’t. Childbirth is painful enough without being sliced open and sewed up repeated times.
I concur with you that both FGM and MGM are evils and we have to put up a united front against them. Both involve cutting of erogenous tissues, they’re both considered beneficial by the cultures doing them and they have the support of the adult victims.
As for paul swartz’s comments, I don’t understand them either.
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Shloka, only fgm is banned in the States. For some reason, male circumcision is still pretty common, despite the decreasing numbers of doctors who are willing to perform the procedure, and the fact that new parents are advised not to do it. Purba Negoro’s balanitis theory made no sense since it’s mostly babies in diapers who suffer from it, so circumcising men 18 and over in the military is not an explanation, and there are as many studies which state that it’s more common among circumcised men than there studies that state that it’s more common among uncircumcised men. Even the Canadians regard it as abhorrent, but there are many, many circumcised men who defend the practice. I actually read some African professor try to defend fgm because she felt that the global community’s disgust at the practice (the abhorrent practice around!) was a case of Western imperialism. Yeah, and Far Eastern, Latin American, Central Asian, South Asian, Pacific Islander, and everyone but Muslims – imperialism.
Actually, immigrants to the US have to sign something saying that they will not commit fgm upon their daughters, and if they are found out to have done so after having signed it, even if they go to another country to do it, they will either be deported or go to prison for at least 5 years. It’s a good way to get rid of Egyptian students in my department if you ask me. Thanks INS. The EU has a similar document, as does Australia, but I keep reading that there are all these little girls in Australia who keep getting it done there.
You can read Waris Dirie’s account of her mutilation here: http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~pine/Phil110/waris-dirie.html
Your poor classmate probably had no idea what was going to happen to her. And if it takes her 10 minutes to pee then she had Type III done. That’s horrifying. I really only thought that happened in central Africa and southern Egypt. The saddest part about the childbirth thing wrt Type III is that (of course now I think it’s happening in even more countries) it coincides with the practice of marrying little girls off very young. Many of these women are sent into caves to have their babies by themselves, particularly in rural Somalia, Sudan, Kenya, Mauritania, and Nigeria. It’s physically impossible for a grown woman who’s undergone Type III to have her 10th child without several very deep episiotomies (a whole new type of fgm for these women!), so quite often these little girls die or their babies are damaged, mentally and physically, and fistulas are very common and never surgically corrected, so they become outcastes who cannot dontrol their bladders and leak all day and night. And of course 52% of the babies die.
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@ justin et,
Of course my friend had no idea what was going to happen to her. I’ve read Waris Dirie’s biography, “Desert Flower,” but that link will no doubt enlighten Hugh7 of the horrors of Type III FGM which people in Dirie’s homeland and probably even my friend was subjected to.
Of course, Arabs were the greatest cultural imperialists, praying five times a day while facing towards kaaba is cultural imperalism yet unmatched by the British and the Americans. While the Western imperialism for all its racism, brought all the modern scientific inventions, the Arabs exported all the horrors of their culture. Thats why even in Indonesia with its “Sufi” Islam there’s this province called Aceh with Islamic dress codes, Shariah style punishments and all, while the Ahmadiyyas who consider themselves Muslim but have another Prophet, Mirza Ghulam after Mohammed were recently banned as a heretical Muslim cult. In Phillipines and Thailand, the Muslims are waging separatist civil war. Actually, once these places were quite cut off from the Arab world, prayed five times in a language they didn’t comprehend, and practically no one performed the Hajj. As soon as they began performing the Hajj pilgrimage in the late 19th century, things took a turn for the worse.
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You’re right about Arabs being the worst cultural imperialists. As an Indian you probably have quite a perspective on that, living in a country which has been colonized by both the Brits and the Arabs. Did the Arabs respect all of India’s cultural achievements and, for all their colonialist racism back in the day, trade fairly freely with you guys? Or did they burn your libraries and universities like the Arabs because they figured that they could contain no useful “knowledge,” since anything that conflicts with the Koran is heretical and anything that agrees with it is contained in their sick little Mein Kampf with a fixation on pedophilia and torture? The Arabs, and Muslims more generally, destroy every culture they parasitize:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=E7E09B43-F161-4701-B5C0-2C15E29D731D
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=85447CC0-5BC0-4B50-BD31-7718A136D661
The Brits were exploiters for sure, but they would never have torched the Library of Alexandria. They would have studied every book in it. And who has ultimately had a more positive influence on Egypt and India? India has had more British influence and it’s far more respectable and upwardly mobile in every possible way. Had the Brits stayed in Egypt maybe they wouldn’t be the Copt-killing, fgm-ing, illiterate, breeding-like-rats, proudly ignorant monsters they prove themselves to be at every endeavor.
Can you believe the audacity of the Muslims waging a civil war in the Philippines? They’re only 5% of the population. Makes me worry about France. It also wonder if we would be willing to bail France out again while they readily bend over for evil. You know they expect us to, since the EU and the UN won’t do it.
Here’s your “peaceful,” “Sufi” Islam in Indonesia in action, Purba Negoro:
http://rednecktexan.blogspot.com/2008/07/muslims-storm-christian-school-injuring.html
“A moderate Islam does not exist. It does not exist because there is no difference between Good Islam and Bad Islam. There is Islam and that it the end of it. Islam is the Koran, and nothing other than the Koran. And the Koran is the Mein Kampf of a religion that desires to eliminate others – non-Muslims – who are called infidel dogs, and inferior creatures. Read the Koran, that Mein Kampf, yet again. In whatever version and you will see that the evil which the sons of Allah against us and themselves has perpetrated comes from that book”.
– Oriana Fallaci -
“A moderate Islam does not exist. It does not exist because there is no difference between Good Islam and Bad Islam. There is Islam and that it the end of it. Islam is the Koran, and nothing other than the Koran. And the Koran is the Mein Kampf of a religion that desires to eliminate others – non-Muslims – who are called infidel dogs, and inferior creatures. Read the Koran, that Mein Kampf, yet again. In whatever version and you will see that the evil which the sons of Allah against us and themselves has perpetrated comes from that book”.
However even moderate Islam does not exist but in Indonesia, we majority Muslim have been able to create much peaceful society than moderate Christianity like in your country, see below crime stats comparison between 60 years olds Indonesia Society Vs. 500 years old American society
Please find near by mosque convert immedieatly and a nice name is waiting for you “Ayesha Justinet” come to Indonesia and I am waiting for you with my open legs
INDONESIAN CRIME STATS:
241,973,879 (populations)
Assaults: 18,562
Car thefts: 29,061
Drug offences: 3.4 per 100,000 people
Illicit drugs
illicit producer of cannabis largely for domestic use; producer of methamphetamine and ecstasy
Murders: 2,204
Murders (per capita): 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
Prisoners: 84,357 prisoners
Rapes: 1,372
Rapes (per capita): 0.00567003 per 1,000 people
Unpaid diplomatic parking fines: 3SOURCES: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 – 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention); UNODC; CIA World Factbook, December 2003 ; International Centre for Prison Studies
AMERICAN CRIME STATS:
295,734,134 (populations)Assaults: 2,238,480
Car thefts: 1,147,300
Drug offences: 560.1 per 100,000 people
Illicit drugs
world’s largest consumer of cocaine, shipped from Colombia through Mexico and the Caribbean; consumer of heroin, marijuana, and increasingly methamphetamine from Mexico; consumer of high-quality Southeast Asian heroin; illicit producer of cannabis, marijuana, depressants, stimulants, hallucinogens, and methamphetamine; money-laundering center
Murders: 12,658
Murders (per capita): 0.042802 per 1,000 people
Murders with firearms: 8,259
Murders with firearms (per capita): 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Prisoner : 2,186,230 prisioners
Rapes: 89,110
Total crimes: 23,677,800SOURCES: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 – 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention); UNODC; CIA World Factbook, December 2003
Source: CIA World FactbookDear Justin,
We have already American Khadija as below :
http:// http://www.islamuncovered.com/mainstory/shockingtruth.htm – 41k
The Shocking Truth
By: Khadija Watson
Former Mary Sue MalvarProfessor, Theologian, Missionary, Pastor, Church Planter, Licensed Ordained Minister, fundamentalist Christian, not a likely candidate for Islam. Yet, 6 years ago, after being raised in the Christian church all my life, (first as a Roman Catholic and then as a Born-Again, Spirit-Filled Christian) and having completed a Standard Ministerial Diploma, Bachelor of Theology and a Master of Divinity, I embraced Islam! What was it that brought about such a radical change?
Therefore, it will be perfect if you could follow her path to become American Ayesha and you will be not alone my girls even in germany, Islam is likely unstopable see below :
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,460364,00.html
January 18, 2007MUSLIM CONVERTS IN GERMANY
Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers — And Find Them in the Koran -
Cuk, America is 232 years old, has three times Indonesia’s population, reports its crime stats ACCURATELY, and doesn’t impose Sharia punishment, so a certain degree of recidivism is more likely here since we don’t impose draconian, Dark-Age punishments. We also consider rape to be rape, unlike every Muslim country, so naturally those stats are higher. Muslims don’t consider anything to be rape, and have absolutely no concept of sexual consent. And that cannabis is criminal at all is riduclous, so I don’t see why you even threw that one in there.
A fundamentalist Christian would naturally cleave to a more cultish, more supremacist ideology. Fundamentalist Christians blow up abortion clinic because they twist the scriptures so that the Golden Rule, the entire point of every single book in the Bible, is meaningless, replaced with malignant narcissism. They have no concept of ‘let he who among you who is free of sin cast the first stone.’ They’re intolerant, Dark-Age sickos who don’t believe in evolution because a 4000-year-old parable doesn’t explicitly state that it happened, just like Muslims. They have no concept of “the TRUTH will set you free” and cleave to scriptures which they narcissistically twist to suit their distorted world view, completely overlooking the Gospels, when the entire point of the NT is that only by enlightening oneself, taking pride in hard work, and regarding others as equals, can one see the truth, the way, and light, and therefore be free. They’re not even fans of freedom, the second most important Biblical value. Why is that surprising? Islam attracts, without exception, bad people, and some people are too evil even for a sick, twisted version of Christianity which only perverts Jesus’ teachings.
And of course Germany has Muslim converts. It has the highest incarceration rate in Europe, and 99.9% of Islam’s converts are convicted criminals. It also has half its population coming from Turkey. It’s also the country that carried out the holocaust, so they can apparently fall prey to narcissistic, supremacist, cultish thinking more easily than the rest of the civilized world, since NOBODY ELSE GOT ON BOARD WITH THE NAZIS EXCEPT MUSLIMS.
The Belgians, however, are becoming more and more disgusted with Islam: http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/08/belgium-drop-in-conversions-to-islam.html, especially as the prison population becomes overwhelmingly more and more Muslim, so even the convicted crinimals are put off by Islam these days.
And in America, there may be Aishas but their Muhammads are behind bars in special prisons for the mentally ill and criminally insane since both pedophilia and malignant narcissism are MENTAL ILLNESSES and raping children is such an abhorrent crime that its offenders rarely make it out of prison because they usually get killed in there, since even the majority of convicted criminals regard pedophiles as beyond reporach and our criminal justice system as far too easy on them (i.e., we don’t hang them). Read the DSM IV.
America is full of real Khadijas, who are self-respecting, self-sufficient women who call all the shots and don’t take nothin’ from nobody because we don’t have to. We regard men as OUR bitches, because (a) we don’t need you, (b) we’re better off without the vast majority of you, hence your irrelevance as far as we’re concerned, and (c) vagina trumps all. That’s why women are overwhelmingly more educated women than men and more women own their own businesses in the free world, son.
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Justin, not only are you an incredibly resonant empty vessel-and you obviously have a leak- so mere facts will never fill you up.
I waste my precious breath on attempting to point you to even US State Department releases corroborate the fact that:
Female Genital Mutiliation is rare to the point of essential non-existent in Indonesia.
Clitorodectomy or excision of clitoris is 99.99999999999% non existent. Even UNWHO figures corroborate this.Any beheadings are very rare and it would be a lie to say it doesn’t happen- but are truthfully rare to the point of non-existence too.
More people are beheaded in motor-cycle accidents.
Perhaps we should ban that vile helmet-religion for being mitigating factors in these?Child marriage is rare to the point of negligible- exactly like in Israel, or the US. Yes it seldom happens- but it’s very rare.
Definitions such as age of consent is an important factor in considering these statistics too.Arranged marriages are rare too- just look at our cheesy Indonesian cinema for proof of our total addiction to hopeless, swooning romantic love.
Shoka and Justin- please visit Indonesia: you are more than welcome- contact us here on Indonesia Matters and we would be thrilled and honoured to show you about and you can see the real Indonesia as it is.
You will find Indoneia modern, stable, polite, charming and incredibly hospitable even the very poorest- who’ll keenly bend over backwards for a guest- exactly like an everyday American or Israeli.
We keenly await your reply to our invitation.
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Teng says:
has three times Indonesia’s population
300 million in the US and 240 in Indonesia, that’s hardly three times 😉
reports its crime stats ACCURATELY
Although this might be true to certain extend, I doubt this explains the much higher crime figures in the US compared to Indonesia.
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Purba Negoro, yes, age of consent is an important factor to take into account, like that it;s 9 in Egypt and 1 day in Iran. I will grant you that Indonesians are clearly more civilized than every other Muslim nation, being Buddhized and colonized by the Dutch before its Muslimization, and not being a country like Egypt, where an indigenous holocaust took place and continues to, so that it becomes totally Arabized, or just Muslimized like Pakistan. But all those atrocities – arranged marriages, lashings, other Sharia punishments, fgm, GENOCIDE IN EAST TIMOR, beheading and kidnapping Christian girls, tieing Buddhists to train tracks – all occur there and are more accepted, even approved-of, unlike in the free world, because Islam condones, requires, and promotes evil and attracts horrible people. Also, when talking about Israel, bear in mind that it has a million Arabs out of a population of 7 million, which seriously skews every bell curve to the left.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Here’s another aspect of FGM.
While abroad I saw on TV a documentary about a new kind of voluntary FGM in the USA, not for religious reasons but for aesthetic (sic) ones. It seems a lot of American women aren’t pleased with the somewhat floppy and sloppy look of their labia minora and have them partly removed or straightened with cosmetic surgery to make them appear orderly and straight, like a closed clam. Since boob-jobs have become mainstream over there and are even common practice as a graduation present for teenagers, a new trend has emerged to keep the cash rolling: stereotyping of the pussy. Sex will become like eating hamburgers at McDonalds, everything has to look and taste the same.
Thank God I live in a place where natural beauty, tradition and common sense are still valued.
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Yes the “designer vagina” issue and the leading Jewish surgeons such as LA’s famous Dr Alter- who pioneered a “no excision” labial-reduction day procedure technique for (mainly white) women with too much ham hanging from the baguette seem to have been conveniently forgotten by Justin and others.
Genocide?
Justin do we really need to compare some scraggly Portuguese puppets on a tiny island which had less than 200,000 when the UN, the Soviets, the Chinese US and the UK and Australia (before its’ turn-around when Suharto dared renegotiate the Timor-Gap/North-West Shelf gas treaty with Woodside Petroleum) approved Indonesia’s ABSORPTION of former Dutch-Portuguese Timor?How many killed so far in the Halliburton Oil Robbery of Iraq?
600,00 and counting?Read a history book- you’ll find the Portuguese abandoned it in 1974- where three local political parties emerged- one pro-Portuguese, one Socialist (Fretilin), one pro-Indonesian (Adopeti).
Interestingly, former long-time foe Xanana Gusmao now trusts the Indonesians far more than the Colonialist Aussies (do we need to remind of keen US involvement/participation in Papua New Guinea and Bougainville with Aussie Bell Huey helicopters, short barrel FN-Fal’s (SLR’s) ex-Vietnam weapons and Sandline’s former Rhodesian Commandos Mercenaries?) after a Australian backed assassination attempt- where he publicly broadcast explicitly clearing Indonesia oof any and all involvement.
Your Imperialistic Colonialist bastard rulers never learn.
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Justin:
“while male circumcision is horrible, the pain can be largely alleviated by tieing a string around the penis before cutting, which cuts the sensation in the nerves from passing the string” I have never heard of this before and doubt it very much. If the string were tight enough to “cut the sensation” it would just about sever the penis because there is nothing to press the nerve against. Perhaps you are thinking of a Plastibell(TM) in which a ligature (strong thread) is tied tightly over the prepuce into a grooved ring, (which certainly does not reduce the pain).“in women, even in the most mild forms it still leaves a considerably larger open wound”. No, this is not the case for the most mild forms, which amount to just a pricking or nicking of the clitoral hood.
“Men may die of infection from circumcision, but they don’t die from hemorrhage” Maybe not men, but babies do.
“And there’s no male equivalent of the Somali tradition in which, after the clitoral hood is sliced open and then the clitoris is dug out with a fingernail, all the women gather ’round and plunge their fingers into the hole in order to make sure that nothing remains while blood spurts all over the place.” I guess not, nor any female equivalent of metzitzah b’peh. The extraordinary and horrible things that people do to the genitals of defenceless people of all ages are without limit.
“And like I said, fgm is like cutting off a penis (hence the massive amounts of blood loss which often result in death), with the exception of Type I sans clitoridectomy.” And like I said, you can’t generalise.
“I also have to disagree that the prepuce of the penis is the most sensitive part. Most of the nerve endings are in the glans itself”. No, this is simply false. The nerves of the glans are fewer and not specialised for fine touch.
“and in my experience [un?]circumcised men are far more inclined to have issues with premature ejaculation. In fact, lots of [un]circumcised men like to pull back the prepuce during sex in order to increase sensation.” There are different kinds of nerves with different kinds of sensitivity, and “more sensation” does not necessarily lead to faster ejaculation. More of the right kind of sensitivity can lead to better control.
As human rights issues, all these bloody details are just distractions. People have a basic right not to have their genitals mucked about with, at all. “Culture” is just a way of saying “We haven’t got a real reason, but we’ll go on doing it anyway.”
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Way to once again demonstrate a lack of understanding regarding science and medicine, Purba Negoro. Vaginal rejuvenation’s purpose is to IMPROVE sexual sensation, not destroy it. It’s performed on “loosened” baby mamas and it’s done by making a single tiny incision inside the vaginal canal and drawing the muscles in closer together with a couple of stitches. Nothing is removed and no highly-enervated areas are operated on. It’s not an uncommonly brutal procedure performed on little girls who wouldn’t consent to it even if they could in order to steal an important part of their lives and cause them a lifetime of physical pain, emotional damage, and sexual frustration, by some illiterate old skank with 3 teeth in her head, with a rusty razor, and no anaesthesia or antiseptic. You did crack me up with the ‘baguette’ reference. I don’t see how it actually applies but it’s nonetheless hilarious.
And way to condone genocide as so long it’s peaceful, innocent civilians who get killed and not terrorist insurgents and their collaborators who endanger our freedom and have no regard for human life. Good people should be spared. And judging by the way Iraqi (non-Chaldean) immigrants behave in Europe and America, I have a hard time sympathizing even with the tiny number of “innocent” civilians who died in strategic bomb attacks, most of them suicidally like the children placed in the trenches with Hamas soldiers so that when Israelis defend themselves they end up inadvertently picking off a couple of them, because they are parasitic monsters with no work ethic who rape every Swedish girl they see and kill Jews and random teenagers in the street. Those who endanger peaceful, decent people’s lives should be destroyed, like the Canaanites, the Aztecs, the Nazis, the Shintos, and the Muslims. Fortunately, the Nazis were a political movement for supremacists who simply wanted something for nothing out of a deluded sense of entitlement who made a God-head out of a Fuhrer who killed himself in hiding, and the Shintos and the Muslims are just ridiculous cults with ridicuolus ideologies built like houses of cards with easy-to-destroy Achilles heels. That’s why Islam can’t stand up to criticism or win any philosophical debate. It’s nonsensical, it’s unjustifiable, and it’s, well, ridiculous. Just like a couple of a-bombs on Japan and a picture of a frail old emperor bowing to Douglas MacArthur destroyed Shintoism. At least the Shintos had history to back their delusions that Japan was protected by God. Mecca was never a trading outpost, a holy city, or anything relevant 1400 years ago, at least according to every single legitimate historical source that the Muslims weren’t able to destroy out of a lack of respect for knowledge and education: http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1122&Itemid=0. So Islam is a house of cards built on b*llsh*t, not just for harboring the delusion that Mecca ever meant anything to anyone 1400 years ago, but for a million other reasons too.
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Hugh, here’s where I saw the thing with the string: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMK2VgcIuFc
It’s obviously from the early 80’s, so it’s not a new practice. And I know what you’re talking about with the Plastibell, and that comes later in the procedure.
I did mean to write “circumcised men are far more inclined to have issues with premature ejaculation.” That’s been my personal experience, anyway. 30-year-old circumcised men overwhelmingly have to wear condoms to slow themselves down, at least in my experience.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt on the enervation of the penis thing, since I don’t have one and am not an expert.
I also just have a hard time believing that either Type I without excision or the “little nicking” type ever really occur, since that’s what The Reliance of the Traveler says is required in its falsified English translation but not in Arabic. There’s obviously a big conspiracy to keep useful idiots ignorant of the truth, and I do believe that the majority of fgm is done out of Shafi religious obligation, and religious suggestion of “courtesy” by other sects, or just the belief that it’s a good idea to start being violent and ruining lives early on in Islam.
But you’re right that it’s all just horrible and wrong, and crazy that people think they’re doing their kids a service by mutilating them. And that “culture” and “tradition” are not excuses for anything. Neither is “religion” when it harms people and animals.
And Dewa, I hadn’t heard about the labia minora removal thing, but I would imagine that (a) regular vaginal rejuvenation would fix that, and no tissue is removed during that procedure, just “tightened” with a couple of stiches which draw it all inward and upward, and (b) if it does get that extreme it’s because porn stars are all waxed these days. I kinda miss the good old days when porn didn’t pander to pedophiles. And yeah, a lot of girls get breast implants, which is awesome because it weeds out men with bad taste. I like the guy who goes for the chick with the glasses and the sense of humor, not the empty-headed skank with the fake tatters. It’s also sad because I have small boobs, like an A cup, and, while I wasn’t happy with them at 18, now that I’m almost 30 I really like my boobs. They’re the same as they were when I was 15 and they’ll hopefully stay that way for a while, since gravity is a function of mass. Big boobs just seem like more junk to schlep around and a lot of unwanted attention, if you ask me. Plastic surgery just makes me sad. Sorry-ass people fixing the their bodies instead of their character defects and lives, the real reasons why they’re not happy with themselves. I will admit that I’m all for cosmetic dentistry, though. And you spelled ‘aesthetic’ right.
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@ justin et,
Could we just borrow guys like Bush or Mc Cain?Actually, a few like those do exist in India, but they’re powerless. India has a long long culture of tolerance even if it leads to our annihilation, and it hasn’t developed over the last five decades like in Europe. We also haven’t learnt a single lesson from the ethnic cleansing of first Pakistan and now Kashmir.
Euripedes had said, “Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. ” and this seems to be Europe’s present situation. However, the guys who pushed the Muslims from Vienna will not remain this way for long. Cuk, Muslims can well oppress the Indians and Thais, but their games in Europe won’t work, if Europe’s past is any indication.
We all know how the Taliban treated women. After “patriarchal” Bush took attacked, Afghanistan has more women in electoral politics than Canada. Of course, I expect most Muslim women weren’t happy with the invasion, and they wouldn’t be happy even if no bloodshed had occured in Iran. In cults, people are so brainwashed that they would fight their would be liberators to death!
And yeah about birthrates, Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Algeria and Tunisia are already sub replacement. France’s former colonies like Algeria and Tunisia have a birthrate under France. Iran has a measly 1.71 children per woman, almost half a child under the Americans. Closer home, Indonesians Muslims have one child below Catholic Filipinas.This high birthrate thing won’t last long. Even Europe’s highest birthrate is Lutheran Iceland at replacement 2.1, not Muslim Turkey.
As justin et rightly stated, Bush “bleeded” out the Al Queda in Afghanistan, and America is now “breeding” the Iranians out as well. Cheers!