FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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Shloka says:
@ Timedog,
Oh,we’re back again at Hinduism. Since you jump to the defence of Islam at the slightest pretext, I feel obliged to defend my faith too. Sure, its not safe for for a certain segment of Dalits from Bihar to criticise caste, but its getting safer and safer. There are many, many prominent Ministers in Bihar belonging to the Dalit caste, elected by the Bihari voters- India’s a democracy, you know.While you’re at Dalits, its not safe for the women and children of certain fundamentalist Mormon sects ( the one that broke away from the mainstream Mormon Church and still practise polygamy) to report what wierd activities happen at their Church. I recall that hundreds of Mormon children were rescued from a ranch at Texas. Its not safe for the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses to have fatal accidents as their parents might prefer to let them die rather than have a blood transfusion.
Whats my point in saying all this? The point is that, while there are indeed fringe elements in every faith who make life difficult for critics or apostates, ITS NOT SAFE FOR ANY MUSLIM, whether rural or urban, intellectual or illiterate, of the developed or developing world, Muslim, ex Muslim or non Muslim to criticise Islam.
Timedog, you accuse the likes of Laeridon, Justin and me of being “part of the problem” but never consider your own partial and biased views. If I write anything about the genocide of Hindu polytheists or give examples you ” do not have the energy to read my post in detail.” You hope your howling might have “scared me off.” Notice how even your criticisms do not turn others against Hinduism? Maybe because, unlike you they do not find Hindus imposing their values on others or threatening global peace.Unlike ill treatment of Jews and Christians, smashing of idols is unequivocally sanctioned in the Koran and by Prophet Mohammed’s(PBUH) example. However, the intolerance shown to idolaters will not effect you like the plight of Muslims.
Anyway Timedog, there are millions of legal and illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and Pakistan in India. Maybe they come to be oppressed by Hindus in India? As a visitor to NWFP in Pak, I gather you know that the forced abductions and conversions of Hindu girls to Islam are a regular occurence there. How many Muslim girls were forcibly converted to Hinduism in India?
Finally Timedog, before accusing others of bias, please make sure you are totally unbiased yourself. I rest my case. -
timdog says:
Shloka – Hinduism came into it because somewhere, at some point, someone said something along the lines of “Islam is a uniquely wicked and violent religion, and here’s an example of Muslims being wicked and violent to prove it”; the easiest way to respond if you don’t believe the first part of that statement is to counter it with any one of the readily available examples of non-Muslims being wicked and violent… It just so happens that I know a reasonable amount about India, about its history, about its violence. I picked on examples from Hinduism. They could just as easily have been from Christianity or Judaism, however, I do not like to waste my time in debates like this – which are ultimately mere self-indulgence on all parts – on research, on google and wikipedia… the examples from Hinduism were already at hand; I used them… it had nothing to do with an “attack on Hinduism”.
It’s inevitably a distraction in the debate, but how else to respond?
Several points in your last reply alight the urge to continue that vein, but as I said in my previous post, I would like to stop that now…Instead, I will tell you about some other things from the NWFP that will hopefully help you to understand my position.
Pakistan is a country I know reasonably well and have spent time in at various points during the last decade; it a country I care deeply amount, and am endlessly worried about. What precisely am I worried about? About the endless shambles of politics there; of democracy that disenfranchised itself, of bloody communalism, of general chaos and corruption that puts Indonesia’s much bemoaned “problems” firmly into perspective… And perhaps most of all I am worried about the rising influence of aggressive Deobandi Islamists…
Despite Pakistan’s media profile, it is not a nation of raging fundamentalists; the Sunni-Barlevi majority have a great deal in common with the much-mythologised “Indonesian-style Muslims”. The radicals have always been there; they are still, and always will be, a minority, but their voices are growing louder (this is not the place to discuss why, but toss in the following words and you’ll have half an answer: political chaos, regional conflict, poverty, corruption, Russian Invasion of Afghanistan, political “blowback”).
This worries me, troubles me, concerns me; I discuss it, debate it. It is something that greatly worries my smart, urban Pakistani friends – their sniggering mockery of the “beards” as they call them, barely masking a real unease and fear…To the Frontier… Chitral is an old Kingdom (I’ve spent time with several members of the old Royal family there) in the high mountains at the far north of NWFP… It is a stunningly beautiful, though desperately poor region, and the only part of NWFP where Pashtuns are not the indigenous majority…
However, utterly alien “Talibanisation” is creeping into the valley, mainly fuelled by settled Pashtun migrants, many of them originally Afghan refugees… Chitral has a powerful tradition of music and dance; they brew wine and apricot brandy in the high valleys, and women rarely go, or rarely went, veiled…
But as I said, all of these things are under increasing pressure. The first time I went to Chitral, ten years ago, you regularly saw unaccompanied Kalash girls – the last pagans of the Hindukush from the remote valleys on the Afghan border – in the bazaar… Last time I was there, a couple of years ago, they were no longer there – such a short space of time! They rarely come into town like that alone now – the atmosphere for them is unpleasant if they do…All of that worries, troubles me, bothers me immensely; I discuss it, debate it… There are people I have met in Chitral, some of them political powerful there in their own small way – people who are in their own way deeply traditional and conservative – who are quietly, determinedly resisting the “Talibanisation”, insisting on playing the old music at weddings, demanding the rights of women to visit the bazaar alone and unveiled… They are the people that I’m with…
What bothers me and offends me so very much about the anti-Islam rants that crop up here is this: those people, those urban, urbane Pakistanis, those traditionalist Chitralis are all Muslims too, some of them very serious about their religion, some of them deeply traditional and conservative, but all of them at odds with the image of Islam painted in an Islamophobic rant, quite literally at odds with it in a way that brave internet ranters can never understand…
A burnt church in Indonesia prompts wild shrieks here, but the simple fact readily ignored is this: the overwhelming majority on the “front line” against radical Islamism are Muslims…
Lairedion et al will uphold and glorify a former Muslim who abandons his/her faith and proclaims Islam evil and dangerous, and will then enjoy smugly disgusted self-satisfaction when said apostate finds his/her safety threatened, but these are not the people who matter… The people who matter are those who quietly mock the “beards”, but would certainly not consider abandoning their own Islam; the people who matter are the traditional Chitralis resisting modern Islamism… and none of those people are helped in any way by a totalist, inflexible rant that states, demonstratively that “Islam, all Islam, is fundamentally hateful and violent”; they are not helped one bit…Likewise, in one desperate attempt to return all of this back to where it began, take something awful like female genital mutilation – how is it, why is it, that within a few breaths of a discussion of such a thing starting we have reached the old position of statements condemning Islam outright? How does that help?
I have no idea about the cultural origins of female circumcision in Indonesia, but I do know that the most brutal form of FGM originates in sub-Saharan Africa, is still prevalent there (among non-Muslims as well as Muslims) and is commonest in those Arab countries with most connection to sub-Saharan Africa (Egypt, Yemen)… debate that, fight against that… but “Islam is evil, and here’s a quote from the Koran to prove it!” does not help that, or anything else, and most seriously, most damagingly of all, it does not help those millions of Muslims who are quietly on the “frontline” against radicalism…That is my problem, and inevitably, Lairedion still hasn’t addressed it…
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@Timedog
Thanks for clarifying your stance. I’ve seen similar responses by some Muslim supporters( and there’s nothing wrong with being one) who inevitably bring up the Inquisition whenever Muslim terrorism is mentioned. However, that doesn’t turn me against Christianity because my personal experience of the Christian minority in India or elsewhere is positive. Sure these might be fringe elements in Pakistan, but how do they get so much power? For instance, from 1979 to 2006, rape required four male witnesses there. Hinduism definitely has\had many misogynist practices, but I GUARANTEE if even the “Hindu Fundamentalist” parties had made such practices law, they would be booed out of office immediately. General Zia- ul- Huq, who made that law is educated and prosperous, not some feudal lord, the 9\11 pilots did not come from feudal backwaters either.
As for FGM, sorry but I have to hold that, though it did not originate with Islam, it came to Indonesia through Islam. Though Christians in Africa do practise FGM, there is no example of Christians in U.S.A., Canada, Central and South America, Europe, Australia or Asia doing it. Likewise only Jews in Africa practise FGM, though there’s a Jewish diaspora in much of the world including India. However, do you know that female circumcision also happens among Kurds in Iraq, where in a study by UNESCO, upto 60% of women have undergone it. Again its common among Bohras in India who are Muslims. How did it spread to Bohras in India, parts of Syria, Jordan and Iraq if not through Islam. There are numerous Hadiths which hold that, circumcision is obligatory for men and makrumah( desirable) for women. If you have the energy, you can look through my previous posts, where I have given those hadiths.
If you ask me about how caste came to Bali, I would immediately tell you that it came through Hinduism, because even though Muslims,Christians etc in India have caste, it is not as pervasive, nor is it anywhere mentioned in their scripture. For a balanced account, you have to accept the bad with the good right?
Similarly if FGM happens in Kurd Iraq, Indian Bohra Muslims and Indo\Malay Muslims the common factor between these diverse people is Islam. The Abbasids\Sassanians in present day Iraq\Iran veiled their women, but Hijab came to Pak\India\Indonesia with Islam too. -
Shloka, I am not a “Muslim supporter”; that makes it sound like a football team, but I am against people who make outright condemnations of all Islam – because it doesn’t help; it makes matters worse…
General Zia has a great deal to answer for, not only in the problems of modern day Pakistan, and so do the people who formed a thoroughly unsavoury partnership with him, but that’s another issue… For example I imagine that without General Zia the Ahmadiya would still face the problems that all obscure and non-orthodox religious sub-sects face, but I doubt they would come in for the extent of outright persecution that they often experience today… But that’s all another issue too…
Of course it’s almost certain the female circumcision came to Indonesia via Islam; but as I said, to approach these things constructively it is necessary to keep a perspective on the difference been “global Islam” as a theological concept, and issues and problems that occur in some, or even all Muslim societies.
For example, Bal Thackeray believes that homosexuality was imported to India by the Muslims; he’s wrong of course, about that and many other things, and I don’t personally believe that homosexuality is in any way a problem… but if you shared his view, and belived as he does that homosexuality is wrong, would it be helpful, would it be anything other than spectacularly absurd to turn that into an attack on Islam in general, complete with historical examples and Koranic and hadith references to back it up?
Surely you get my point? -
@ Timedog,
One of the four schools of Islam is the Shafi school, of which you’re probably aware.It is the only Muslim school which considers female circumcision mandatory, the others marely consider it honorable(makrumah).The Shafi school is followed in Yemen, Egypt, Maldives, Somalia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore to name just a few places. Invariably female circumcision happens among Muslims in all these places, though it does not happen everywhere the Shafi school is followed. The procedures range from infibulation in Somalia in which nothing of the external female genitalia is left except two holes for urination and menstruation, to cliterectomies in Egypt and Yemen, to splitting of the clitoral hood in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. I know FGM happens in many nations in the African continent, so I won’t blame the FGM in Egypt and Somalia on Islam. However, the tiny island nation of Maldives and the significantly large archipelago nations of Indonesia\Malaysia are not only thousands of miles away from Africa but also thousands of miles from each other. If the only common thing between them is is the Shafi school of Islam that requires circumcision and girls are routinely circumcised in these nations, I will hold Islam responsible won’t I ? -
dewaratugedeanom says:
@Lairedion
Jeez, Lairedion, you really are bin Laden… bin Lairedion…
You have “responded” to many of the things I have said here, but the one thing you have repeatedly and utterly ignored is this: You and your outlook is PART OF THE PROBLEM; it pressurises the moderates, deepens the divisions, entrenches the conflict…You see, Lairedion, in the end it will be you who is responsible for all the terrorist actions.
This is what they call ‘reductio ad absurdum’.
@timdog
Do you really believe that interfaith dialogue will stop the urge to establish a Caliphate or theocracy? Your friendship for a couple of Muslim individuals seems to blind you for social and group dynamics and the protection of age-long established interests. -
@ Timedog,
Bal Thakarey is a fool and bigot and his statements should be taken no more seriously than those of Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell or Patrick Robertson.Although homosexuality is still punishable under the archaic laws made by the British colonialists, there are many gay celebrities in India and I’ve yet to see anyone punished. But Pakistanis also believe that homosexuality is a vestige of their Hindu heritage, so it works both ways! I too find no reason to punish homosexuals, and hope that law will be altered.
Nepal’s poverty, Dalits, Bal Thakarey- I’m impressed by your knowledge. Before you strut out examples of Hindu bigotry I want to tell you that the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) smashed 360 idols in Mecca, and his iconoclasm contributed to the spread of Islam in Saudi just like any virtue in the Koran. The Muslims in India destroyed many more idols and temples. Zoroastrianism has no Dalits, but sustained persecution caused it to become almost extinct in Iran. The history of Islam’s spread in the Indian sub continent is bloody, with temple smashings, prisoners of war being forcible converted and backbreaking taxes on Dhimmis, not just about Dalits escaping from caste.
While Islam has some ambigious statements about goodwill to Jews and Christians, I challenge you to find one word in the huge number of Hindu scriptures that says that all non believers in Hinduism will go to hell. Just one word. Indeed persecuted people of all nations be they Jews( in India for 2500 years) or Zoroastrians( in India for 1300 years) or the ancient Indian Charvakas who were openly atheists have found in India a safe haven to practice their faith. For every riot in India every 20 years, there are a couple of bomb blasts in India every year, more often than not in temples. There’s no backlash from Hindus. Also the dirt poor Nepalis don’t burn mosques\ churches in their land or bomb their Muslim neighbours. -
Lairedion says:
dewa said:
You see, Lairedion, in the end it will be you who is responsible for all the terrorist actions.
This is what they call ‘reductio ad absurdum’.
LOL, I think we’ve found our new dragonwall with timebomb, timedog, timdog. I can imagine him sitting behind his desktop, sweating and screaming, vandalizing his keyboard. 😀
I wonder what he has to say about his FPI buddies showing their true Muslim colors last Sunday? Unfortunate, reprehensible…
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No sweating, no screaming – just quietly toddling my way through the working day, getting somewhat less done than I ought to, drinking somewhat more coffee than I ought to, as normal…
Dewa – I have not, in case you hadn’t noticed, been talking about “interfaith dialogue”; I have been talking about the need not to make aggressive and apparently aimless statements about “Islam in general”. In any case, do I think interfaith dialogue is likely to provide “the solution”? No, I doubt it very much indeed, but do I think that it will make “the problem” worse? No, certainly not…
But, as I’ve said many, many times before, do I think that making aggressive, broad-sweeping statements about the “evil nature of Islam” do make “the problem” worse… and at no point has anyone explained why they think that to do so does help – apart from some vague line about “waking up the PC bules to the dangers of Islam”, which strikes me not as an answer, but as a repetition of the statement – and how would that help anyway?
If all non-Muslims conclude and agree that “Islam” is inately and uniquely evil and aggressive, which seems to be what you want, how on earth does that help to stop Pakistan sliding into the abyss? How does that help the millions and millions of Pakistani Muslims who fear and are oppossed to “the beards”?I take as my starting position an acceptance of the fact that one billion Muslims exist, the vast majority of them who are not raging Islamists; Pakistan is a country regularly mentioned as key in the “Islamism problem”; it is key in the “problem”, but even there I know categorically that the vast, vast majority of people there are not, in any way sympathetic to violent Islamism… and therein lies the potential solution – a potential solution not assisted by aggressive general anti-Islam statements.
Do I believe that “the problem” will probably get worse? Yes, unfortunately, and it will only be exacerbated by taking position like Lairedion’s – of which Lairedion is well aware… but throughout history most long-running societies and cultures have gone through cycles of reactionaryism, expansion, retreat, quietitude (see – as raised by Shloka – the inquisition).
Do I really believe that Lairedion is equivalent to bin Laden? Of course I don’t, not really, but I do think that there is a perverse irony in the remarkable closeness of his and bin Laden’s rigidly aggressive and inflexible interpretations of Islam, and their response to mild Muslim moderates. And I do think he is part of the problem.
Shloka, I’ve already said I’m not doing the Hinduism-Islam wickedness tennis challenge any more – again, I could have returned a couple of the serves you sent my way in your last post – but I’m done with that…
I do though have to point out that while Bal Thackeray is indeed like Anne Coulter etc in his statements, unlike them he does have a substantial body of followers who do take to the streets and mete out violence… were he, let’s say, an Indonesian Islamist – an FPI leader perhaps! – whose mobs regularly engaged in such absurdity as burning shops selling valentines cards, and whose mobs had been indicted in large-scale communal killings, you would not so casually dismiss him I’m sure…Lairedion – if you really think the FPI are my “buddies” then I strongly suggest you re-read my explanation of my position on Pakistan…
Shloka – why, after goodness knows how many posts are you still addressing me as “timedog” not timdog? It doesn’t bother me at all, but I just wondered if it was some joke that had gone over my head?
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@Timedog,
Since this forum is Indonesia Matters rather than India Matters I suggest you mail me any information or points you have rather than discuss it here, I’ve posted my e-mail address in a previous post. I’m welcome to both constructive and deliberately inflammatory criticism, I promise I won’t drop a bomb on your head.
Sure, Bal Thakaray is like Ann Coulter et al, but he doesn’t do any more harm than them. A dozen or more abortion providers in U.S.A. too have been killed due to the hate propagated by Coulter and her ilk. The Valentine Card shops barring a few destroyed by Thakaray run fine and well, most girls in my class have boyfriends who send them cards. Sorry, Bal Thakaray or Coulter simply don’t threaten the atmosphere of modernity or secularism in their respective countries, the way the ” Bearded Pakis” do in Pakistan. As for the communal violence, the U.S. Department of State has named India the country most threatened by terrorism. Have you asked your Pakistani friends, who perhaps have so indocrinated you against Hinduism, what they would do if Hindu terrorists blasted a couple of bombs in their mosques every year killing almost 200 per year, and threatened to “wipe out Islam”? Doubtless they would butcher every Hindu they have still kept alive. The number of Hindus have drastically gone down in Pakistan in the Post Independence era,while Muslims in India have multiplied.The only Hindus remaining in Kashmir are not Dalits but Brahmins of the highest caste. They now live in refugee camps in the rest of India due to persecution by Muslims. The number of Muslims killed in communal violence pales in comparison to the number of Hindus annihilated every year by Muslims terrorists in India’s temples. Are you a Paki masquerading as a Westerner? So YOUR SOLUTION: Overlook every terrorism, every violence ever done by Muslims, turn the other cheek, believe that every Hindu, Christian or Buddhist is just as violent and intolerant even if practical life clearly shows otherwise, refrain from making statements like ” Mussalman ke do hi stan…” and keep your country secular and open to Muslims even if they make life intolerable for your co- religionists in their countries. In other words, turn the other cheek a la Jesus or Gandhi, and wait for them to either reform themselves or annihilate you?
@ Lairedion,
I sympathise with your plight. My family faced the same persecution in Bangladesh. The temple near our house was burt down, the idol smashed and trampled upon. My father left his flourishing business there and fled to India for his young family’s safety. Timedog has many Muslim friends but simply has not lived as a minority in a Muslim country. Perhaps Timedog could pretend to be a devout Christian\ Hindu, wanting to settle down in a Muslim nation and spread the word of Christ\ Hinduism’s multiple gods, and then see how charitable his friends remained. Perhaps , you, I and Dewa, coming from different countries\ religions\races are all biased but miracuously only biased about a single faith.@ Timdog,
Very, very sorry. I’m finishing my school project on the comp and writing at the same time. Doubtless there are other spelling mistakes in my posts. Certainly not a joke or insult. My sincerest apologies. -
Patrick
Dewa, your extension of the dog metaphor is nastier and dirtier that mine
It took me a long time to realise that when people in other parts of Indonesia complained about Bali being “dirty”, they were generally talking only about the noticable presense of dogs… they are pretty filthy… I find throwing stones at them works well… yeah, thowing stones, we like that don’t we…Yes, about throwing stones. How long will it still take before throwing stones will be a legal way of punishment and public amusement in Aceh, Padang or West-Java like in those countries which you hold so high in esteem?
In one of the first posts I made here in IM I stated that reform of Islam can only come from inside. I was still naïve. The futile efforts that are made by groups like ‘Muslims against Sharia’ or liberal Islam and Gus Dur-alikes don’t seem to have much effect, on the contrary, they are like putting out a fire with gasoline. During history every attempt at reform has always terminated in bloodshed. Look what happened in Monas a couple of days ago.
If Islam cannot be reformed from inside then the problem must lie in its own core, which is its Scripture. I can follow your reasoning that it is not possible for millions of people to change their paradigm overnight. But does this mean that we should turn a blind eye to what is basically wrong and what many don’t want or dare to see for fear of falling into a void? My feeling is that the majority of Muslims are just sitting on the fence watching the fight and then go home with the winner.
That’s why I believe that the solution has to come from outside, by relentlessly pointing to what is wrong, hoping that at least a minority will start to question their paradigm and transfer their insights to a wider audience. And don’t get me wrong, I do not advocate the use of violence unless as a last resort. After years of cold war and verbal violence Communism also vanished from the political scene in an almost peaceful way or was transformed into some guided Capitalism à la Chinese. This should also happen to Islam. -
Patrick says:
dewaratugedeanom – Please note that on your last comment that you mistakenly attributed a quote to me that I did not write. I believe Timdog is the author.
Patrick
Dewa, your extension of the dog metaphor is nastier and dirtier that mine
It took me a long time to realise that when people in other parts of Indonesia complained about Bali being “dirty”, they were generally talking only about the noticable presense of dogs… they are pretty filthy… I find throwing stones at them works well… yeah, thowing stones, we like that don’t we…Thank you!
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Good heavens! Posts about Female Genital Cutting in a thread titled “Female Genital Mutilation”! And very interesting and informative, too.
timdog:
“… it’s almost certain the female circumcision came to Indonesia via Islam…”
This is very parallel to the way Male Genital Cutting came via Judaism to the UK and US and then in the late 19th century was medicalised and spread throughout the English-speaking world (and via the factoid that “circumcision prevents AIDS” is now being re-spread through Africa). US TV gives the strong impression that infant circumcision is entirely Jewish (only 3% is) and some people falsely blame Jews for the “medical” custom.Shloka:
“… the Shafi school … the only Muslim school which considers female circumcision mandatory … is followed in Yemen, Egypt, Maldives, Somalia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore to name just a few places. Invariably female circumcision happens among Muslims in all these places, though it does not happen everywhere the Shafi school is followed.”
I’m confused. If the school is followed, how can they fail to do something the school considers mandatory? Isn’t that what “mandatory” means? Or is there division within the Shafi school on this issue?
“The procedures range from infibulation in Somalia in which nothing of the external female genitalia is left except two holes for urination and menstruation, to cliterectomies in Egypt and Yemen, to splitting of the clitoral hood in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia.” This is new detail to me. What is your source? Is there any history of how the difference came about?
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@Patrick, I consider it an honour to have been confused with you 😉
@Hugh – interesting stuff, too late for me…
@dewa – big thanks – and I mean that without any sarcasm or cynicism – for responding and laying out your position directly and soberly; I’ve certainly laid mine out enough times! Obviously I think you’re wrong – of course I do; you think I’m wrong too – but I like debating with you… and of course, we’ll never agree about this, so as far as I’m concerned it’s time to draw this to a close…
I do have to make a couple of quick responses to you:
I think you make a fatal error in comparing Islam, a religion, to communism, a political system. For the millions of average peasants and workers who lived in the Soviet Union, communism meant very little to them on a personal level; for millions of average peasants and workers in the Muslim world… you know what I’m saying…. communism may have simply withered away and disappeared to a stunted vestige, but Islam?Would you then, just because he hasn’t managed to save the world, really like to get rid of Gus Dur and his kind? Replacing them with… who? Abu Bakar Bashir?
I think it’s crucial to understand the catagoric difference between “Islam” and “Islamism” – and there is a huge difference; go to Pakistan if you want to get a clear picture of that (actually, it’s a great place to visit, just as a tourist – I’m not being funny – if it were not for its negative media profile I reckon tourists would be going there in their droves. However, I wouldn’t suggest downtown Baghdad as a place for a weekend city-break 😉 )
Even if most Muslims were “sitting on the fence” surely screaming at them about how fundamentally wicked their religion is would likely topple them off – onto the wrong side – no?
Do have the last word on all of those if you want because I’m all done… I know when you use that line in these online forum debates it smacks a bit of a petulant “I’m not playing any more”, but as I’m sure you’ll agree – we’ll never agree! One of us has to do it! Anyway, we’re bound to kick off about something else on another thread (though I really, really am going to try to stay away from general “Islam” debates here – at least for a little while…)
@Shloka – no worries with the spelling mistake… actually I quite like the sound of “timedog” – it sounds like a renegade spaceship in some dodgy sci-fi movie… it was just that you were using it with such consistency I was sure it must mean something… and I’m definitely no Pakistani – I’m Anglo-Irish, raised in Cornwall… Shoka… Sholka… Shokal… Schlong… whatever your name is 😉
Before I go I simply have to take issue with you about Bal Thackeray – you absolutely cannot blithely dismiss him as an irrelevant nutjob yapping away on the outer edge of the lunatic fringe. He is a hugely powerful political figure; his organisation has been in power in Bombay, India’s largest city and he has certainly “threatened the atmosphere” there. He was personally named in the Indian Government Report as being the principle party – along with the Bombay police – responsible for the massacres of well over a thousand people in the city in 1992-93; the same report also presented clear evidence of the systematic nature of much of the violence, with Shiv Sena (Thackeray’s mob) goondas in possession of electoral registers highlighting individual Muslim households and businesses to be attacked… Thackeray wriggled out of many of the charges against him thanks to the Shiv Sena’s power in Bombay, but I believe there are still cases pending against him.
This is all FACT. I don’t know if you are simply not aware of it, or if you are deliberately avoiding it, but you cannot, with a throwaway wave of the hand, put him on a par with some right-wing columnist barking away offensively, but harmlessly in the corner. This is irrelevant to what we’ve been debating here, but it absolutely needs to be clarified. I imagine, in terms of the influence he has exerted and the body count he’s racked up, Bal Thackeray would be an inspiration to the retarded thugs of the FPI…Just so you know, I’ve spent almost as much time in India as I have in Pakistan, and have friends there too. The views I have about India developed, surprisingly enough, in India. And one more time, I am no more “anti Hinduism” than I am “anti Islam” – I thought I explained why I brought Hinduism into it already…
Purely as an aside, and something that does actually surprise me – in India it often seems that Kashmir, Pakistan and the “Muslim problem” is a national obsession. Sometimes it seems that virtually every conversation with an Indian soon turns to grumbling about Pakistan and the “Muslims”…
In Pakistan – and I swear that this is true – people simply do not go on about India in the way that Indians go on about Pakistan; although Kashmir is a bugbear for some – and I mean some, not all – you simply do not find people going on about Hinduism and its evils; India is not repeatedly cited as the cause of all ills…
Generally, people are much more preoccupied with the political and social problems of their own country, just what to do about democracy, the army and the “beards”…
Tell an Indian you’re going to Pakistan they will usually unleash a barrage of wild condemnation of that country, and assure you that you will be killed by the barbarians across the border; tell a Pakistani that you’re going to India, and there’s a good chance he’ll express polite interest and tell you that his father was born in Delhi…
For the record, this is absolutely true, I have no explanation for it, but I do not for a moment believe it has anything to do with either Islam or Hinduism…
Jai Hind, Pakistan Zindabad, and long live Bangladesh… oh yeah, and Merdeka! too…
And with that I am done,
Over and out,
Tim 😉 -
@ Hugh,
Perhaps Timdog, can give better explanations about what he cites but I’ll try to explain too, with my limited knowledge. Then I’ll explain what I have written about. Circumcision was invented somewhere in the Nile Valley, (Egypt, Sudan thereabout) and adapted by the Jews when they lived there. “Father of History” Herodotus writes that Egyptians circumcised their boys and excised their girls. Judaism is an very old faith, like mine Hinduism. Then over the course of the next two millennia, the Jews left Egypt, Israel and settled all over Europe. Though the Torah ( Bible Old Testament) mandated circumcision, the Christians substituted it with “spiritual circumcision” baptism so Christians in Europe were not circumcised, though Jews in Europe were. I presume you know about the Victorian morality in the 19th century, which cast a fear of sexuality and masturbation, believing masturbation leads to insanity and blindness. These foolish beliefs, coupled with the fact the Europeans and Americans saw Jews circumcising boys, led them to believe that circumcising Christian boys too would lead to better health and prevent “masturbation and oversexualization” Thus neither Jews nor Christians invented circumcision, maybe Pharonic Egypt did, maybe its neighbours Hittites or Nubians did but the Jews took on the custom from the Egyptians and then three millennia later, the Europeans and Americans saw the Jews doing it, were already worrying about ( unnneccessarily in my opinion) their sons’ masturbation and saw circumcision as the perfect cure. Circumcision reduced in frequency in the rest of the (for lack of a better word) White world like Europe or Australia during the second half of the 20th century, due to better medical knowledge and now most non- jews in these places don’t do it. America remains the only notable exception, where a slight although decline majority of boys are still circumcised, in the unsubstantiated belief that it will prevent AIDS. This belief was spread by Americans and other white circumcision supporters in AIDS ravaged Africa among non circumcising tribes.
MY Comment:
The hadith used to support “female circumcision” is a alleged statement made by Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) to Umm Attiya, a woman who excised girls: ” Do not cut too harshly as that is better for the woman and for her husband” This hadith has been regarded as weak by most Muslim scholars in the present day.Most scholars in present day Al Azhar University in Cairo have regarded it as weak and unreliable.
When I mentioned that, the Shafi school mandates circumcision, what I meant was that, Iman Shafi the founder of this school held that both male and female circumcision is compulsory under Islam. Others schools as I have cited only called it makrumah (honorable). As to how some places where this school is followed do not do it, that can easily be explained by the fact that Islam was not spread amongst a Arab literate culture. The Muslim missionaries who spread it will teach the basics about fasting, prayer, ablution, pilgrimage to Mecca and the newly converted Muslims will pray in a language they hardly comprehend. Very few would learn Arabic let alone comprehend all the Al Koran, hadith, sunnah and then Imam Shafi’s instructions. Remember literacy was very low then too.The missionaries who taught them, if they taught female circumcision too, they did it, if they didn’t they did not circumcise girls. Or maybe if someone among the neo-converts acquired enough proficiency in Arabic to study Shafi, he spread the word among his co-religionists. As to how the difference came about, Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) if he did indeed say that hadith, asked the excizer,”not to cut too harshly”. By that I presume, infibulation of the Somalian variety is forbidden. As I said, female circumcision must already have spread to Somalia via Egypt then, and the Somali version should not be blamed on Islam. So I disagree with Ayaan Ali Hirsi.
However, by the words,” not too harshly” does not clarify, whether its only the tip of the clitoris or the entire clitoris. Thus its left upto the interpretation and imagination of those following this religion or the Shafi school. The Kurds in Kurdestan,( parts of Iran,Iraq, Turkey) miles from Indo-Malay, but following the Shafi school cut the entire clitoris, while Indos just prick it to draw blood.
As to why these differences exist among the Shafi school followers, why are the Minangkabau in Indonesia, the Dhivehis in Maldives and the Muslim of Lakshadweep matrilineal, ad land passes from mother to daughter? I’ve read about the Minangs, but I can speak with personal experience of the Lakshadweep Muslims. Islam after all says that the brother gets double that of his sister, in Lakshadweep the brother gets nothing. Why in the Tuaregs of North Africa, men veil their faces in the presence of non related women, but unmarried women do not even wear a head scarf? Islam and Muslims is not a monolith, but a diverse lot of people. Since male circumcision is mandatory in all schools, and the male circumcision ceremony is such an important occasion, every convert to Islam got the message, but since female circumcision is based on weak hadiths, mandated in one school only, all converts did not learn it.
My source is Wikipedia and other articles available on the net and books, my reading of Ayaan ali Hirsi’s “Infidel”( though I am not a Muslim, as the Hadith says “not too harshly” I don’t accept it when she blames her infibulation on Islam),and Waris Dirie’s “Desert Flower” my trip to Egypt and asking my female Egyptian tour guide about the procedure there, and articles like these on Indonesia.__________________________
@ Timdog( not Timedog)
I believe you’ve already clarified what’s better about India yourself, though you won’t comment anymore.
Indians treat Pakistan and Kashmir as a national obsession, while Pakis are busy with their own problems and their rise of fundamentalists there. That means, Indians have fewer problems except those concerning Pakistan and created by Pakistan while Pakis are so overburdened with problems, they don’t worry about India.
Indians are scared to go to Pak, while Paks are not scared to come to India. This menas India is a better\ less threatening\ safer place. Why do Algerians come to settle in France but French don’t settle in Algeria?
Indians have more problems with Muslims in their country than do Pakis with Hindus in Pakistan. This is because, Pakis have an “islamist” country India is a “secular” country, Pakis have left less than 1% Hindus in their land, Hindus have 13%+ Muslims in India. Pakis have driven Hindus all out. You can’t have problems with an almost non existent minority can you? The statement that Indian made,”Mussalman ke do hi stan…” is because, Indians have this grudge, that while Pakis got their own nation, simply on a religious basis, and systematically drove Hindus out, India remained staunchly secular. They believe India should have done a total population exchange like Pakis did.
As for some comments with genocidal overtones( Nuking Mecca) that a Justin made, most holy places of a Hindu God\ess in India has been converted to a Mosque by Muslim invaders. Polytheism be it Greek polytheism or others, didn’t survive the onslaught of fanatical monotheists. Indians had to develop a bit of intolerance themselves, to just survive.
I believe just like Mahathir praised Jews unintentionally, you praised Indians! Thanks. -
@Patrick & timdog
Sorry for the mistake. After all this I think I need a vacation or I might even convert. 🙂 -
I desperately need a vacation as well, just got sucked into this thread because while I was researching on female genital mutilation for my school project, I came across this thread in IM where a certain Javanese Purba Negoro had claimed that she had her daughter circumcized in a ” Hindu era ceremony”. Pakistani Australian Muslim commentator Irfan Yusuf says that female circumcision is a pre- Islamic Indonesian custom. Lest Purba Negoro, Irfan Yusuf and doubtless many others have a mistaken belief that female circumcision is a vestige of Indo’s Hindu\ Buddhist past, I wanted to clarify that female circumcision absolutely does not happen in any Hindu\Buddhist communities anywhere on Earth or anytime in history. Rather, Shafi Islam which Indos follow mandate female circumcision and thats how Indonesians adopted the practice.
I’m sure if a Balinese Hindu had claimed that caste came to Bali due to an Islamic influence, people like Timdog would rush to correct him. However, if I correct Purba Negoro’s mistaken beliefs, Timdog calls me an Islamophobe.
The West makes movies like Monty Python ” The Life of Brian” and Monty Python Search for the Holy Grail” satirizing Christianity, however if the same West cracks a few jokes on Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), Muslims are furious.
Foreign women visitors to Saudi Arabia and Iran are forced to wear the veil under threat of arrest, but if France makes a rule banning headscarves in school, Muslims feel it violates their religious freedom.
Are Muslims children to be shielded from criticism and should there be two sets of rules, one for Muslims and one for others? -
lampu says:
chill out, Janma
the word loose that i used to refer to western pussy is a shock value added to reply to comments on how indonesian women are timid and lacking of sexual drive.
as if the highly cultured and civilized western women are enjoying better sex life.when taken out of the context, i can see that the word i use was rude and improper. and for that i apologize.
you are sick of this.. well, i am also sick of people from other countries who try to solve problems in other countries by comparing it to what it is done in their own and continue bitching about it. I do appreciate how people care, but it is best when it is done with more knowledge and understanding about the culture, the history and their belief.
to add another stereotype of expats (continueing therry’s expat stereotype in her posting), i will add a whiny one. i met way too many of these and yet, they remain in this beautiful country of indonesia and enjoy their life in their circle of western friends.anyway, it is interesting that this pussy talk keeps going on and on..
by the way, it is true that western woman generally have bigger and looser pussy, as western men has bigger penises. no need to be offended on this. it is a matter of fact (in general of course)… i have seen tiny little white/pink penis…and it was cute.
MERDEKA!
The previous posting was for janma,
as for Shloka, timdog, and laeredion, I enjoy the debate.
as i was reading them one by one, im trying to imagine what it would be like if you all were sitting across from each other. it would have been nice to watch.
i see it going no where though. all of you have valid points and they are personal. i agree more on timdog’s wise opinions.
MERDEKA!
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@ Lampu,
I know Western women have pink nipples, do white men also have pink penises? If thats so, I won’t want to have anything to do with them! I guess then I’ll stick to Indian, Chinese and Mid-Eastern men.And yes, the White world does interfere, sometimes unfairly in others’ business.
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ha ha…
love it,.. now we are into describing colors… mine is somewhat pink though… abnormal, eh?
ha ha.. love always your comment shloka…
MERDEKA
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@ lampu,
I’m a hardcore brown, from India, somehow the idea of pink penises seemed strange, there’s this total hottie Dutch exchange student in my elder brother’s class, and I suddenly imagined his pink penis, and all his hottieness seemed to disappear. Certainly not abnormal, the variety of colors of Earth’s creatures is beautiful, but it seems somewhat strange to someone who’s seen all brown people around her!
MERDAKA
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Interesting discussion here about the manuk .
Mine sometimes takes on different size and colors, depending on the weather and his mood. And his name is Osama because he has a beard and likes to hang out in caves.
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Rainen says:
justin et : I agree totally and completely. I’ve been married to a muslim man from Arabia for 8 years. I have a daughter from a prev. marriage. He is trying to force her to marry his brother. ( so not going to happen) Everything u’ve said is true. I’ve seen it, I’ve lived it. He was getting so out of hand concerning sex. I told him he was making me sick. Shut the hell up!!!!! If anything my daughter learned more about sex from his filthy mouth. An American woman can walk down the street in a bathing suit. WOW guess what the men are humans they control themselves. An Arabian woman has to cover herself because the man cant control his filthy self. I can’t even begin to tell you Justin How correct u are. His parents came to our country not to long ago. Good God it was horrid. My husbands excuse me exhusbands sister inlaw excuse me did I say sister? OOPS!!!!! I did. COUSIN is the sweetest person I’ve ever met and very smart. She wastes away in the house nothing to do no where to go. Just sits and rots. Oh and did I mention this man I married. He had another wife. He came home and told me he had to divorce me because his wife was 7 months pregnant. I do believe before another wife is taken the second has to be told about her. He lied because he knew I would never marry him if there was another woman. In my book another wife is an excuse to have more than one women in bed. Dont say mr. U all DONT GET INTO 3 SOMES!!!! U ARE ALLOWED 4 WIFES. IF THATS NOT BED HOPPING I DONT KNOW WHAT IS. OH AND DID I MENTION THE SISTER INLAW WAS A FIRST COUSIN.
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justin et says:
Rainen, thank you for validating my statements, and bless your heart for getting out of that marriage. And bless your heart just for speaking honestly about these kinds of things. Often victims of circumstances aren’t willing to admit to them, even in anonymous environments, and despite the fact that victims should simply not feel ashamed. It’s not fair and that’s one of the saddest part of Muslim culture, if you ask me — that victims are not only blamed, but generally made to feel ashamed for defending themselves, for trying to change their unfortunate circumstances, and for speaking the truth.
I have always wondered why on Earth Muslim men are so vocal on fora like these and Muslim/ex-Muslim women are so silent. I realize that that is part of the culture, whereby female “attractiveness” is gauged by the extent to which she is silent, submissive, and immobile (i.e., the extent to which she dehumanizes herself in order to be tolerated by Muslim men), but I will never understand it, particularly in anonymous contexts like these. I also realize that many of these women are cult members who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, which would have to be the case in order for them to defend societies which oppress them to such an extreme. The silence on the part of Muslim/ex-Muslim women, I believe, is a large part of the reason why these horrible traditions are allowed to perpetuate themselves. I also think that the Internet should provide an incredible opportunity for silenced women to finally express themselves. I think they owe it to each other.
Also, women may be able to walk down the street in bathing suits here, but they have to have on legitimate pants/shorts/skirts in order to allowed into most businesses, and women who dress like sluts still get hollered at and looked at funny, but they don’t get raped unless they’re dressed like that in a dark parking lot or alley. We don’t consider baring one’s arms, knees, and a little neckline to be slutty though, let alone one’s hair and face, and some regions are more conservative than others (usually the cold ones, because it’s more acceptable to wear less in hot climates like Brazil, which has a very Catholic culture, but where people nonetheless walk around half-naked).
I think the Muslim male obsession with sex comes from the culture, which allows themselves to turn into animals, and gender apartheid certainly does not help. It also lies in the Muslim/Arab belief that nobody is ever responsible for their own actions, and particularly so when it comes to men and sex, since almost nothing is considered to be a sex crime and almost nothing is considered to be rape. The reality is that mental retardation and insanity are the ONLY excuses for someone to not be 100% in control of and responsible for 100% of their actions, statements, and beliefs. That and being a monkey I guess. This of course places the blame on women, who must be punished for having 2 x chromosomes. Men in the free world would be deeply offended by the assumption that they are animals who cannot control themselves and must jump on any woman who shows an inch of flesh, or like flies on a lollipop, as was suggested by that Egyptian email forward that was circulating recently. I also think that the culture places WAY too great an emphasis on sex, probably because it is free and therefore available in 3rd-world Muslim dictatorships where people have nothing and are allowed precious few pleasures in life (like art, freedom, music, unregulated media, etc.).
I’ve also thought that anyone would have to be crazy to buy into Islam simply because its message and doctrine are FAR too, let’s say, “worldly,” even in its conception of the afterlife, to possibly have any divine basis whatsoever–historical and scientific inaccuracies/falsehoods, cultish and Fascist political doctrine, ridiculously repetitive, nonsensical, poorly-constructed Koran, and patently subhuman “prophet” who produced neither prophecy nor miracles aside. It’s like a cult for carnivorous predatorial animals in heat.
I know how true all these things we’ve talked about are. I also know how Muslims in America are completely unashamed of them unless confronted in public. Then they lie, lie, lie, in order to defend them. It’s sick and it’s sad. This depressing obsession of mine arose from my desire to prove to myself that my negative stereotype about the Muslim world were based on my own ignorance, but the more I read, the more disturbed and disgusted I am, and I find the account of apostates to be particularly intesteing, since they have the best insights on the culture and the best knowledge of the scripture (Ibn Warraq, Nonie Darwish, Abul Kasem, Ali Sina, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat, Ayaan Ali Hirsi, etc.) Again, thank and bless your heart for rising above all that and for speaking out. You’re my hero, girl. Best of luck to you. And Cuk is an asshat.
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Cukurungan says:
You’re my hero, girl. Best of luck to you. And Cuk is an asshat.
Oh my GUN…thank you that you are still alive and believe me that I am happy that you do not take a suicide pills. At this time, I would like to prove that your prejudice toward us is totally wrong therefore I will give you a chance to deliver 100 of bashing post to Islam without my response. I hope that you are happy with my gracious offering and you will prepare yourself to become my forth wife.
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Cuk, you may be an asshat, but I will grant you that you’re pretty darn funny sometimes. I’m not always sure if it’s intentional or not, but you do crack me up. Purrs, baby.
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@ justin et
It’s not fair and that’s one of the saddest part of Muslim culture, if you ask me — that victims are not only blamed, but generally made to feel ashamed for defending themselves, for trying to change their unfortunate circumstances, and for speaking the truth.
That’s because, according to some on this forum, victims are part of the problem when they react and try to defend themselves.
This depressing obsession of mine arose from my desire to prove to myself that my negative stereotype about the Muslim world were based on my own ignorance, but the more I read, the more disturbed and disgusted I am,
If it may cheer you up, you’re not alone…
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dewaratugedeanom, the fact that people who tell the truth, defend themselves, and try to change their circumstances (victims) are problematic to Islam is because, like I’ve said, it’s a cult. One’s loyalty is supposed to be to the Muslim coommunity/Ummah, so it’s regarded the same way treason is under a dictatorship. There’ s no room for the equivalent of freedom of the press or for amending the Islamic Constitution. That’s how 1 billion people got stuck in 7th century Arabia in the modern world, and Antiquity completely bypassed those Bedouin Arabs, so for all intents and purposes it’s more like the Bronze Age than the Dark Ages. Everyone is expected to keep all the secrets (like condemning a few Catholic priests for child molestation when they know full-well that the majority of Muslim boys are raped in mosques), lie to everyone, and always paint a rosy picture, even though we all know that that’s quite far from the truth. Honestly, it really doesn’t help Muslims when dealing with Westerners when, say, Egyptians operate on the assumption that we’re as illiterate as the average Egyptian and have no access to the truth, because, being Muslim, they will always face an uphill battle in terms of proving their credibility, honesty, and intelligence. I’m just being honest.
And I know I’m not alone, but man, can it feel like it in American academia, where academic Commies are so hypocritical as to ally themselves with Islamofascists out of a hatred for all that is worthwhile in this world, and out of moral, ethical, cultural, and even legal relativism, and shameless antisemitism. ANdrew Bostom, the guy who wrote ‘Legacy of Jihad’ and ‘Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism’ researches renal disease for a living. I actually stole the expression ‘depressing obsession’ from him. But there’s a whole blogosphere that’s with me, and most of Europe and Australia, I believe. America has yet to wake up and smell the coffee, but the problem is not so in-you-face as it is in, say, France.
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@ Dewa,
If it isn’t prying, can you tell me your origins? You know I’m Bangladesh born, living in India, practising but agnostic Hindu, I’ll be 17 in a few months, I gave my 10th standard exams, yada, yada, yada.
Are you a Balinese Hindu? I’ve never encountered one in life but am majorly interested in them.
Comment on “FGM”.
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timdog said:
No sh*t. I would add pathetic and laughable next to hysterical.
Too late. You already have found yourself in that position after reading some of your comments. Your criticism on Hinduism is disproportional high compared to your lack of criticism on Islam while we’re flooded with news articles full of violent sh*t related to Islam. So much for the balanced view.
We? Who are you representing other than yourself?
I think I’ve explained myself enough here. If you’re not satisfied I’ll leave it up to your own imagination. This conversation has already dragged to far away from the initial post.
I’ll probably catch you in another post here. Plenty of baits for fish like you.