FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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timdog says:
Ah, I see; so you were indoctrinated with anti-Muslim sentiment from an early age, right? Well that’s hardly your fault…
When you say you want to see “self-critical, self-questioning Muslims” what you are actually asking for is self-hating Muslims; people of Muslim origin who echo your own highly critical take on Islam (the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali)…
Why on earth would you expect a committed, believing Muslim to say “Oh yes sir, Islam is a wicked ideology, it is inherently violent and bad”? And that is what you are asking for when you demand your “self-critical Muslims”. What you are actually asking for all Muslims to abandon their religion and say, “Well, weren’t we silly! 1400 years of history and culture and all a silly mistake!”
Well, Lairedion, that’s fine, but I’m going to have to ask all Jews, Christians, Hindus animists, Zoroastrians etc to do the same; if not then you’re engaging in a prime piece of religious arrogance and superiorism…There have been free-thinkers, debaters and theological radicals within Islam since its very inception, and there are plenty of Muslims who do look critically on some aspects of society in countries that happen to be Muslim (I’ve met many of them), but when they are surrounded by the likes of you, shrieking “Islam is inherently wicked!” do you honestly expect them to say, “Absolutely Lairedion old chap, couldn’t have said it better myself!”
Of course not! If they are a committed believing Muslim, no matter how moderate, how do you expect them to react if not defensively? That’s why I say YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, not the solution…Incidentally, I have plenty of critical things of my own to say about some societies that happen to be Muslim; I’ve discussed them with “moderate Muslims” but I’m hardly going to add my voice to the baying chorus of Islamophobia here, am I? Those moderate Muslims would likely respond to you in the same way… PART OF THE PROBLEM…
And one more thing, call me a “PC Bule” all you want; liberal I may be, but I dwell in no ivory tower of cozy decency…
I’ve spent a decade rattling around the “Muslim world”; I’ve dined with Taliban-sympathising Pashtuns on the Northwest Frontier, and drank tea and discussed Afghanistan with veteran Mujehedin in Peshawar; I’ve been among the self-flagellating Iraqi and Iranian pilgrims at the tomb of Sayyida Zeinab on Ashura; I’ve chatted with Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon and I was in the crowd around the martyrs monument in Beirut when the Karami government fell; I’ve been at Islamist rallies in Pakistan and inside pesantrens in Indonesia and maddrasahs in Morocco and India; I’ve discussed bin Laden with Bangladeshi students at the height of the Afghan war, and been drunk under the table by Iraqi refugees in Damascus; I was in Pakistan when Musharraf seized power, there, and a whole world of other places too… What I believe and what I know about the “Muslim world” is no indulgent theorising; it’s backed to the hilt with experience… -
Lairedion says:
timdog, I asked you this question:
Can you explain why we can be critical on Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity in the public domain with our identities exposed without having the fear to get killed and why is it virtually impossible to be critical on Islam?
With all your experience in traveling the Muslim world I’m sure you can answer this for me.
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I said:
I have plenty of critical things of my own to say about some societies that happen to be Muslim; I’ve discussed them with “moderate Muslims” but I’m hardly going to add my voice to the baying chorus of Islamophobia here, am I?
Do I think it’s a bad thing that people “criticising Islam” might find their safety at risk? – CATAGORICALLY YES
Do I think that you ought to be able to say what you want with impunity? ABSOLUTELY YES
However:
Do I think that it is valuable, helpful, constructive to make the kind of “criticisms” of Islam that you make, which are essentially hate-mongering? NO
Do I think that creating something as intellectually vacuous and deliberately inflammatory as “Fitna” is of any worthwhile value at all? NO (and just to make sure you’re clear about where I’m coming from, I think The Satanic Verses is anything but intellectually vacuous; it’s not Rushdie’s best book, but it’s damn good and damn clever – and the furore over it was an outrage)
Do I think gibbering about “Islam being inherently wicked and all practicing Muslims being poisoned by their religion” is offensive and PART OF THE PROBLEM and only likely to make it more dangerous for people constructively to criticise “Islam”? YES
Will I refrain from citing two-thousand years of Christian apostates burnt at the stake, and examples of modern playwrights receiving death threats for “insulting Sikhism”? ……. YES, with difficulty… 😉
You claim that you want to see “self-critical Muslims”. I’ve already addressed the absurdity of this above.
Quite clearly, what you really want to see is self-hating Muslims who abandon Islam and join you in a frenzied orgy, dancing around a grotesque, bloated effigy of Geert Wilders, shrieking “Islam is evil! Muslims are wicked!”, hysterical glee reflected in your eyes as the last quietly moderate Muslims go up in flames in the face of your onslaught and the bin Ladens take over…Do I believe that you actually know that the position you take is not one that will never lead to accommodation and understanding between “Islam” and “the rest” and will in fact make that less likely? YES
But:
Do I believe that hostility to Islam is such an ingrained, indoctrinated part of your being that you don’t actually care about that; that you actually want to see an exacerbation of “them and us”; that you find a smug and perverse pleasure every time you come across a new “Muslim” atrocity with which to “wake up the PC bules about the evils of Islam”?
Categorically – YES…… hand in hand with bin Laden… actually I’d be inclined to say you’re more than holding his hand, but I don’t want to be crude…
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timdog said:
Do I think it’s a bad thing that people “criticising Islam” might find their safety at risk? – CATAGORICALLY YES
Do I think that you ought to be able to say what you want with impunity? ABSOLUTELY YES
I did not ask you this. I asked you:
Can you explain why we can be critical on Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity in the public domain with our identities exposed without having the fear to get killed and why is it virtually impossible to be critical on Islam?
Can you explain why Salman Rushdie should fear for his life, why Theo van Gogh is murdered, why Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders needs protection 24/7? Can you explain that with all your extensive knowledge of the “Muslim World”?
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Shloka says:
Timedog,
What’s your opinion on the apostasy laws prevailing in large sections of the Muslim World from Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Yemen, Iran etc? Even in so called secular, tolerant Malaysia apostasy is forbidden and anyone marrying Muslims is required to convert to Islam.Lina Joy a convert to Christianity and Revathi Masoosai a convert to Hinduism were forced to stay Muslim. Revathi Masoosai was separated from her little baby and husband. Even during the time of the so called “Hindu Fundamentalist” parties, anyone could leave Hinduism in India and marry a man of another faith. Also ex Hindus like Kancha Illaiah have written books very critical of Hinduism while feminists like Mallika Sarabhai have criticised Hindu treatment of women. They are alive and well in India. Christian fundes sometimes blow up abortion clinics and Hindu fundamentalists commit their own share of crimes. However, they are nowhere as endemic as the Muslim world. There are many religions in the world and many religious minorities in the West and India. However, if so many have a poor impression of Islam, maybe its a case of no smoke without fire. -
Ah, I see what you’re doing Lairedion, clinging doggedly to your one point thus finding it unnecessary to respond to the others! Cunning!
Well, firstly I’d argue very strongly that if you were to make the kind of aggressively hateful attacks that are regularly made on Islam on any other faith in the right circumstances your life could very well be in danger – see the “insult to Sikhism” furore about a certain play in Britain a couple of years ago… This would particularly be the case in India. Hell, they burnt effigies of Richard Gere for a public kiss – if he’d made a loud public pronouncement on Hinduism of the kind often made about Islam I guarantee his life would be in danger…
I’m not going to labour that point, but do understand that no other religion has ever come under the kind of sustained intellectual attack from “the West” that Islam has experienced, not even Judaism…I’ll answer the other part of your question quite happily though – why do people who make a perceived attack on Islam sometimes find their life in danger? Quite simple – because, unfortunately, a certain number of Muslims find in their faith justification, even a requirement, for violence when their religion comes under attack… it’s unfortunate and reprehensible, but not by any means unique to Islam…
The real question is why does this response seem to be more prevalent among Muslims than other faiths…
Not hard to work out – before you go any further you’ve got simple numbers to take into account – if there were 1 billion Sikhs rather than 20 million, and if Sikhism found itself under sustained intellectual and percieved actual attack, then I guarantee there would be plenty of bloody violence…It is also crucial to understand the long-running “Western” response to Islam. You may not be aware, but when you spout your aggressive Islamophobia you are channeling a 1400-year old European tradition.
For at least its first century the Christian church viewed Islam not as a new religion, but as a heretical form of Christianity, and it’s response was formulated accordingly. Christian responses to heresy, for much of the past 2000 years, have been particularly fiery, shall we say (you can tag that onto my second paragraph too if you like)…
You won’t find many aggressive historical “Western” responses to Hinduism because Hinduism was safely out in the nether regions of “heathenism”; Islam was a much closer heresy and thus viewed as much more dangerous…
See the long tradition of violent and aggressive caricature of the Prophet Mohamed as “Mahound” in the European tradition; see also the earliest “western” scholars of Islam, who were raging Christian fundamentalists who studied Islam with the stated aim of dismissing it…All of this has had a profound effect on the Muslim world’s response to “the West”…
I’m about to raise a metaphor that is absurd and objectionable on many levels, but it was the first one I could lay my hands on, I apologise in advance… Kick a dog enough times, they say, and it will bite… not in anyway to justify the dog’s response, but it’s important to understand the context of the bite…
That’s a nasty, dirty analogy; I will dispense with it immediately and go and wash my hands…The crucial question to ask yourself is whether your behaviour and attitude towards Islam is one that will entrench and exacerbate the violence of the response of some Muslims towards such attacks; whether you, with your rants, put more unhelpful pressure on those “moderate Muslims” who would not ever countenance a violent response to an attack on their religion. The answer to both is a catagoric YES…
Perhaps you would like to address some of my other points now…
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@Shloka, I said:
I have plenty of critical things of my own to say about some societies that happen to be Muslim; I’ve discussed them with “moderate Muslims” but I’m hardly going to add my voice to the baying chorus of Islamophobia here, am I?
Take a look at History, you will find that over centuries all religions experience “climactic changes”, ebbs and flows of the current “atmosphere” or “climate” of the faith. What you need to ask yourself is whether you want to engage in making the “weather conditions” better or worse. I believe the likes of Lairedion actually actively want to be part of the problem; the likes of Justin are just too apeishly stupid to know better… how about you Shloka?
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timdog:
I’m about to raise a metaphor that is absurd and objectionable on many levels, but it was the first one I could lay my hands on, I apologise in advance… Kick a dog enough times, they say, and it will bite… not in anyway to justify the dog’s response, but it’s important to understand the context of the bite…
That’s a nasty, dirty analogy; I will dispense with it immediately and go and wash my hands…Hahaha timdog, you’re a funny dude. At first I was impressed by your posts and comments here at IM but like some many left-liberals you talk so much it’s just a matter of time you’re shooting yourself in the foot and become trapped in your own meaningless words. Like Dewa said earlier, you’re not so good with analogies but here you score a winner.
I’ll come back later to address the other points of your view…
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Timedog,
India is a traditional conservative society, the Richard Gere thing was more religious than cultural. Just like in Egypt, where Coptic Christians and Muslims at least agree on mutiliating little girls’ pussies even if they disagree on everything else, Hindus and Muslims in India agreed the Richard Gere kiss was a violation of” Indan cultural norms”.Of course I condemn the protests, it was a harmless thing. As one keenly interested in Islamic affairs, you might be interested to know that a prominent Muslim cleric issued a fatwa against Gere, even though neither Gere nor the actress he kissed are Muslims. The newspaper I subscribe to carried a picture of a Hindu priest and a Mulla walking side by side in a protest march against Gere.
On an aside, since you seem to have a reasonable knowledge of Hinduism and enjoyed Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses, I recommend Ashok Banker’s Ramayan series and Shashi Tharoor’s The Great Indian Story. These books are an irreverent , satirical take on the Hindu epics and Hindu gods and goddesses. The authors though born in Hindu families describe themselves as agnostic. They are alive and well and their books have topped India bestseller lists. You might also like to read the works of Indian Christians turned atheists like Joseph Edamaruku and Abraham Kovoor whose criticisms of Christianity and Hinduism are in my opinion as offensive as Fitna. While Hindus and Christias called for a boycott of those books there were no death threats.
And sure all religions be it Christianity, Buddhism Judaism and Hinduism had their bloody pasts. Today however they have adjusted to the modern world with its secularism and women’s rights, barring a few regrettable incidents. Islam is the only notable exception.Timedog,
I do not intend to quote every nasty comment ever made by Christian bigots or missionaries, but Hinduism has faced sustained attacks from the West too. Don’t forget, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all monotheistic faiths and hold polytheism in contempt. While Islam and its Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) have been the subject of hate, Hindu gods and goddesses were widely ridiculed. Hinduism faced tremendous criticism during the 200 years of British colonization of India as a caste ridden, misogynistic, idolatrous faith. At least two of the three criticisms were partially justified.Christianity gave other monotheistic faiths at least grudging respect.And Jews faced tremendous persecution in Christendom, which only ebbed after the Holocaust and World War ii. Even today, many Christian fundies hold that, Jews should be “perfected” by accepting Christ as a saviour. Patrick Robertson has called Hinduism “devil worship” besides many other nasty, deliberately inflammatory comments. He was recently in India as a missionary. No death threats. Timedog, I LIVE in India! -
timdog:
Ah, I see; so you were indoctrinated with anti-Muslim sentiment from an early age, right? Well that’s hardly your fault…
If you read well (and you’re not such a good reader) I described the experiences of my parents and bigotry and intolerance as reasons for us to live in Holland. At that time I was too young to be fully aware of these problems. As a young kid I had other things on my mind, playing football and attending SD but after 9-11 I started to read the Qur’an and hadiths and I began to understand the feelings and experiences of my parents and these are more in touch with reality than your 10 year traveling experience.
When you say you want to see “self-critical, self-questioning Muslims” what you are actually asking for is self-hating Muslims; people of Muslim origin who echo your own highly critical take on Islam (the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali)…
No, I do not want that. Let me give you an example to explain what I want. If Muslims read the following verse from the Qur’an:
2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
Must Muslims carry out this verse, no questions asked (Islam demands this because the Qur’an is final, complete, free of errors and eternal) or is it possible for them to take a critical look at this verse to see if it agrees with their own reason and common sense in the present context of time?
Well, firstly I’d argue very strongly that if you were to make the kind of aggressively hateful attacks that are regularly made on Islam on any other faith in the right circumstances your life could very well be in danger
What are the right circumstances, timdog? And what are the wrong circumstances?
Quite simple – because, unfortunately, a certain number of Muslims find in their faith justification, even a requirement, for violence when their religion comes under attack… it’s unfortunate and reprehensible, but not by any means unique to Islam…
Of course the answer is simple. See the afore-mentioned Qur’anic verse I quoted. And here you’re displaying the left-liberal soft approach again. Theo van Gogh was shut down and slaughtered with a knife stabbed in his chest containing a death threat to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. If I judge this crime with my own reason and common sense, free from religious dogma’s, I wouldn’t think unfortunate and reprehensible are the fitting words to describe this barbaric, horrific crime.
It is also crucial to understand the long-running “Western” response to Islam. You may not be aware, but when you spout your aggressive Islamophobia you are channeling a 1400-year old European tradition.
For at least its first century the Christian church viewed Islam not as a new religion, but as a heretical form of Christianity, and it’s response was formulated accordingly. Christian responses to heresy, for much of the past 2000 years, have been particularly fiery, shall we say (you can tag that onto my second paragraph too if you like)…Independent thinking, free from the Christian dogma’s and influences, is equally a Western (European) tradition. That’s what the youth and students in the 60’s have fought hard for. And now we have naive Westerners like you selling out these gained rights and freedoms even to the point we might consider implementation parts of Sharia Law into British Law!
I’m about to raise a metaphor that is absurd and objectionable on many levels, but it was the first one I could lay my hands on, I apologise in advance… Kick a dog enough times, they say, and it will bite… not in anyway to justify the dog’s response, but it’s important to understand the context of the bite…
That’s a nasty, dirty analogy; I will dispense with it immediately and go and wash my hands…If you think your analogy is nasty and dirty why bringing it up? The good side of blogging and commenting is that you can re-read and re-think everything before hitting the submit button. I guess your emotions overtook your reasoning. But I think you scored a winner by comparing offended Muslims with dogs. 🙂
timdog, I think we will never agree on this one. If you think my feelings towards Islam are hateful so be it. I do not have the slightest respect for Islam because it does not have the slightest respect for me, a disbeliever who just want to make his own decisions on how to live his life.
To conclude this long thread I have one more wake-up call for you if you’re still considering interfaith dialogue. Indonesia hit a new low today:
Fringe fanatics attacks religious tolerance rally
FPI Beringas, 10 Anggota AKKBB Terluka ParahSleep well, my friend.
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djoko says:
2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
One response
Historical context, verses before and after the quoted verse, other verses throughout the Qur’an. There’s at least a few variables there and more. Fact is, you’ve presented something as ‘matter of fact’ when its clearly not.
I do not have the slightest respect for Islam because it does not have the slightest respect for me, a disbeliever who just want to make his own decisions on how to live his life.
I’m a Muslim and I have plenty of respect for you as a human being and however you want to live your life. You have a right to your own views or way of life, lakum dinukum waliyadin.
To conclude this long thread I have one more wake-up call for you if you’re still considering interfaith dialogue. Indonesia hit a new low today:
Fringe fanatics attacks religious tolerance rally
FPI Beringas, 10 Anggota AKKBB Terluka Parah
Links about AKKBB are interesting (though better check the jakartapost one, it came up as page not found for me). You do know there are Muslims who are supporters and members of it too though don’t you?
Other news on the interfaith front.
I can see where you’re coming from Lairedion. There are Muslims who do reprehensible things and justify their actions as being commanded in their religion. Thus the religion itself must be at fault. However the problem comes in when people do good things and justify their actions as being commanded in their religion. Doesn’t this create problems in the whole ‘Religion A or Religion B is inherently evil’ argument?
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lampu says:
The point is, it was quite a surprise for me to have a non-religion-based hospital offered a female circumcision,…”
surprise? you mean you’d rather have them just done it without offering you or asking your permission.
you should be happy that they offered. shouldnt you?i found a pool of similar disagreement as rather boring. the 3rd and so on commenter can just write “ok i agree with previous posting” rather than going on and on on how bad it is without any research or new info to give to us readers.
it is often easy to disagree or mock or find something as strange or wrong when you dont grow up within the culture and exposed to the tradition from early on.
First, FGM is a common practice in indonesia and FGM that is done in indonesia is generally harmless. it is not the same as the ones done in Africa. what it does, does not at all affect the sexual drive of a woman.
second, it is not an islamic thing as it is not stated in the Al-quran. so stop thinking that this is one of those backward things that moslem do. if you think forward, no religion is backwards. but most people are. so dont be one of them.
in my own opinion, a custom or tradition is one thing and it should be up to the people whether they should do it or not, considering that it is not harmful and as i say before generally, FGM in Indonesia is harmless.
if you dont like it, then be glad that you are not indonesian, but it is definitely NOT up to you to decide.but i do think that when they want to do it, it should be done in a proper situation with proper method. this is probably the part where i dissagree with FGM in indonesia. often times in rural areas, it is not done correctly.
the most important thing is to educate the people who are going to do it and to educate the public who are considering to get it. and that way, people have the choice to get it done the right way and no body gets hurt.
and for you foreigners, it is simple enough to state it to the hospital that you dont want to get it done. but there is no reason for changing years of years of tradition in a country just because it doesnt fit with yours.
if you are not sure whether it affects women’s sexuality, i tell you… most indonesian women got it done when they were babies and i believe they enjoy sex equally if not better than their lose western sisters.
so one thing that you need to fight for right now, since indonesia matters for you, is to make sure that it is done the right way, sanitary and harmless and to make sure that people have the freedom to choose whether they want it or not. thats all.
and if you still think that it is an evil thing and it is harmful to indonesian women. then dont f*ck and marry indonesian women, they are poor timid women with no sex drive… oh how sad…
simple as that.
happy f*cking,
MERDEKA!
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@ Djoko,
Sure Islam has historically as well as in the present time been upto a lot of good, however you cannot deny that an disproportionately large number of terrorist organizations identify themselves with the Islamic faith. I am not including organizations which claim to be secular like the PLO. Lairedion lives somewhere in the West, I in India. There are numerous religions in the West from various sects of Christianity to Judaism\ Wicca or no religion. Religious minorities, particularly Judaism have been historically persecuted in the West. however the London, Paris, Madrid bombings to name just a few were all done by Muslims. India too has many minority faiths, however there are a couple of terrorist attacks in India every year leading to the loss of hundreds of lives. The Muslim terrorists state that they will “wipe out the religion of the infidels”
Also some of the worst treatment of women, and the least legal rights of women are found in Muslim theocracies like Saudi and Iran. For the sake of comparison, I have read in a Muslim site called answeringchristianity that the Bible requires a rape victim to marry her rapist. However devout Christian nations like Phillipines or Malta punish rapists like any other criminal. Islam may have originally been more tolerant than Christianity and even given women more rights, however there must be something in the faith which has made it so intolerant and misogynistic in the present era. Quoting evil sounding verses from the Koran is simply an attempt of the victims of Islamic terror and intolerance to examine what in the Muslim faith causes so much violence and bloodshed. Also while you Djoko have great respect for others way of life and right to life and surely there are millions of Muslims like you, there are eight Muslim countries which prescribe death for apostasy and numerous others which punish apostates, women who do not Islamic clothes and others who do not conform to their standards of morally acceptable behaviour.
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djoko,
How should I read the Qur’an? Literally or in historical context?
I’m a Muslim and I have plenty of respect for you as a human being and however you want to live your life. You have a right to your own views or way of life, lakum dinukum waliyadin.
You as a Muslim might have but does your religion have the same respect?
Links about AKKBB are interesting (though better check the jakartapost one, it came up as page not found for me). You do know there are Muslims who are supporters and members of it too though don’t you
I saw the error that’s why I alerted Patung. But the Kompas article should be sufficient for you. Yes, I know there are Muslims in the AKKBB. They must be brave people who are focused to do good and if they draw their inspiration from Islam and call themselves Muslims I’m absolutely cool with that.
I can see where you’re coming from Lairedion. There are Muslims who do reprehensible things and justify their actions as being commanded in their religion. Thus the religion itself must be at fault. However the problem comes in when people do good things and justify their actions as being commanded in their religion. Doesn’t this create problems in the whole ‘Religion A or Religion B is inherently evil’ argument?
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful” – Seneca
“My own view of religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of
fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.” – Bertrand Russell -
as with the other comment, it seems like it has been going off to a different topic. more interesting than the GFM. lets start a new forum about the FBI-AKKBB attack or maybe on islamic violence.
I am looking forward to it.
i will comment about FBI-AKKBB
i feel pity for people who do such things in the name of a religion, and i feel pity for people who blame a religion for such action.
i disagree with any kind of violent act and i think it should be punished. FBI should be banned or given a big sanction. there shouldnt be any kind of toleration towards such action.
and in “Islamic violence” topic.
i just think what we all need to fight for is not whether which religion is wrong or right but we should enforce toleration and understanding.all of y ou, djoko, Lairedion and timdog have some valid points when i try to understand where you are coming from.
what we all need to do is to open our heart and try to understand and accept.here is a simple way to open our heart about other people believe.
1. it is something that they believe, then let it be.2. there must be a good reason why 1 or 10 or 100 or a thousand or a million or ten millions believe in it, so you cant be that arrogant that you are right and they are all wrong.
3. what can we do so we can live peacefully with this 1 or 10 or 100 or a thousand or a million or a hundred million of people.
what happen in indonesia, all the church and mosque burning and all the kiliing in the name of islam, i see it done not because of the religion, but it is because of poverty and lack of education.
people need a reason to do something. people need to hold on to something. that is just a basic thing about all human. we need a ‘figure’ that we are afraid of and respect and listen to.
in this case since we have a weak government, people lean on their religion.religion is the only thing that can not betray you (seen from a believers point of you). so in a country where no security is guaranteed in many aspects of life, the only thing that poeple can hold on to is their religion and thats what they fight for. because they have nothing else. ..
a simple example of this is, when a single man has no job, he tends to do stupid things, cause he has nothing to fight for, lack of motivation and he beocomes insecure and tend to channel his energy towards things he shouldnt.
once he has something else to be busy with, or when he has a family to support, a bigger responsibility to carry, he will channel his energy towards all these things and the family that matter to him.
this is just human nature. it doesnt matter what religion he is believing.in a country where there is no security, many unemployment, weak government, they only have a religion to hold on to, and they will do things in the name of it. because thats what they have.
so stop blaming a religion for its action. no religion is any better than the other. it is the people.
if we all open our heart and be objective and try to learn and understand about other’s believe, then there should be no anti islam or anti christian action.
or in a simple way, if people are busy enough with other things, they wont be so bothered by what john or jono believes. look at most developed countries? how many religious based frictions they have?
once you paid your bills and have nice clothes and can have a descent vacation once in a while, you wouldnt be bothered if your neighbor claim that there is a new prophet or if Tina is worshiping a coconut tree.MERDEKA!
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lampu,
so stop blaming a religion for its action. no religion is any better than the other. it is the people.
Can the monotheistic religions from whatever denomination open their hearts to the non-believers?
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^^ no religion is any better than the other. it is the people ^^
With THAT I agree. “No religion” is better than any of the other choices.
But you must admit some religious texts appear to be geared toward rallying the troops in perpetual defense or assault, as if they were written before diplomacy was invented.
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I said:
I rather like Indonesia Matters, but to maintain that liking it is necessary for me to avoid the threads like this one – or I’ll end up howling with hysterical frustration…
I believe I am coming to the end of my interest in this particular thread…
Lairedion, I don’t for a moment suppose you have realised the perverse irony – you actually are a raging Islamic fundamentalist of the bin Laden mould!
You have your own aggressive and intolerant version of Islam and are utterly inflexible in your views on it; any other Muslim who happens to hold a different, less violent view of their own faith will be shouted down – “apostate!” You ARE a fanatical Islamic fundamentalist!It would be hilarious if it were not so offensive…
Lairedion, if you had actually read the Koran you would know that despite its status as the “received word of God” it is, like all religious texts, absolutely riddled with contradictions. You can dash off to http://www.evilislamicquotes.com for your little fragments of instant scripture. If I wanted to engage in that kind of quotation tennis I could go and get my Koran (it’s where it belongs, on the top shelf – not so far from the Bhagvad Gita, the Bible and the Thoughts of Chairman Mao) and present Koranic snippets that prove categorically that Islam is utterly unique among organised religions in its unequivocal tolerance and acceptance of other faiths. For example, in the 62nd verse of the second surah I could find a categorical and unqualified statement to the effect that all Christians and Jews have nothing to fear in this world and are guaranteed – yes! guaranteed! – a place in heaven! Of course, I could leaf a few surahs further on and find other statements telling me that a Muslim cannot have a Jew as a friend, but, Lairedion, that’s religion, that’s what it’s like, and you demonstrate a singular lack of imagination when you fail to understand the capacity of humankind for individuality (see my above resurrection of the crusty old fable about the blind men and the elephant).
What offends me most is your insistence on dragging every Muslim into your own violent version of Islam – or on labelling them apostate if they resist. How dare you! To borrow your phrase, it is “offensive and disgusting”… How dare you put that on friends of mine, how dare you put that on my dear friend Yaqoob, a devout man in the sectarianism-torn town of Gilgit who is utterly driven by a beautifully simple vision of brotherhood; how dare you put that on Kabir in Khulna, a double-Haji who sends my a letter on yellow paper every couple of months and who is the epitome of wisdom and kindness; how dare you put that on the man digging potatoes from the patch of rough ground under the Passu Glacier who baked bread and made salt tea for me when I came down off the mountain; how dare you put that on all my Muslim friends and colleagues in Indonesia for whom Islam is just a quiet part of their personal background…
Jeez, Lairedion, you really are bin Laden… bin Lairedion…bin Lairedion, when you encounter a “moderate Muslim” who says, “Actually, my version of Islam is neither violent, nor intolerant,” rather than taking heart you respond with a fundamentalist shriek – a howl of “apostate!” and a demand for said moderate to redeem himself from his apostasy by self-flagellating to a bloody pulp: “Yes! Islam is evil and violent! Yes! And I, Muslim, am evil and violent too!”
bin Lairedion, your aggressive and inflexible position refuses to grant a position to “moderate Muslims” who espouse a non-violent Islam; your view wantonly pushes any Muslim you encounter onto the defensive…
You have “responded” to many of the things I have said here, but the one thing you have repeatedly and utterly ignored is this: You and your outlook is PART OF THE PROBLEM; it pressurises the moderates, deepens the divisions, entrenches the conflict…
It would be nice, bin Lairedion, before we draw this to a close, which, for me at least, must be soon, to have you – and Shloka too – address that directly…
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How should I read the Qur’an? Literally or in historical context?
As I understand it, even within Islamic scholarship itself (I’m sure you must have come across this in your reading at some stage as well) taking into consideration the particular context that any verse was revealed in is part of the process of tafsir. In fact many verses were revealed, not just because God felt like throwing something out there, but because they were in reponse to a particular event, a question from members of the Muslim community or from non-Muslims as well. Its the only way that Muslims can indeed understand each verse as part of a whole. How else can you understand, for example as timdog pointed out, the contradictions between verses, for example the call in some verses to wage war, while in others it is said that killing one person is as if you’ve killed all of mankind (to use the example given in the link I said previous)?
You as a Muslim might have but does your religion have the same respect?
Lakum dinukum waliyadin. To you your way of life, to me mine.
“My own view of religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of
fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.” – Bertrand RussellMy own view is that religion is just another way of thinking, a way of life, and way of ordering human relations. Of course examples abound in just the past couple of centuries of ways of ordering human relations which are decidedly not religious, or even anti-religious, but which also fulfill the criteria of being ‘born out of fear and a source of untold misery to the human race’. Soviet Communism, Maoism (‘Cultural Revolution’, ‘Great Leap Forward’), Nazism, Fascism, Ba’athism, chauvanistic nationalism, so on…. If we’re going to go judging religions on their worst examples, why not the non-religious/secular way of thinking as well?
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@ Lampu,
Sure you have a point, but to the best of my knowledge the native Saudis of Saudi Arabia are extremely wealthy while the immigrants who come from Phillipines\ India\ Thailand etc are in general very poor. Why doesn’t the oil rich Saudi Government or Saudi citizens allow te poor guest workers to build their own temples\ churches and why is apostasy forbidden in Saudi Law?
You claim that the FGM done in Indonesia is harmless. As you and so may Indos feel the same way, I gather you are in the best position to know. Point taken. However, you characterize the “Western women as” loose. As you must be aware the Western world be it the States, Europe or Australia is far wealthier than Indo, and I say this as a non Western woman. They are higher up in terms of HDI, the Peace Index or the longevity index. The Western woman has long campaigned for woman suffrage, equal pay for equal work to the abolition of the horrible form of African FGM even though it does not effect them., and its fruits are being reaped in the rest of the world. If today more than half of university graduates in Algeria, Iran and Tunisia are women, it was they Western world which first allowed women into Universities, because Western women fought hard for that right. I am an Indian belonging to another traditional society like Indonesia women, but I would definitely refrain from calling another woman loose without reason.
@ Timedog,
While it is true that, Christian missionaries and the Western World in general has attacked Islam far more than Hinduism, that is simply because, Islam like Christianity is an aggressively missionary faith. For example, there are two sites on the net, answering Islam and answering Christianity BUT no Answering Hinduism, Buddhism or Judaism. Why? These religions especially Hindus or Jews have never sought converts. Islam has at numerous times attacked Christendom and even today these two faiths are rivals in Sub Saharan Africa. While Hindus in India too live in a traditional society, the loudest critics of Western morals, lifestyle and values come from Islam. Just read Dinesh d Souza’s How the Left caused 9\11. Your greatest critic will always be your rival,right?
P. S. Please if you have time check out my previous posts on Xianjiang and terrorism in India. -
Janma says:
t’s very hard if not impossible to find Muslims, even among the so-called moderates, who are critical to or questioning Islam.
That is so not true….. there are so many Muslim moderates who are fighting extremism.
f you are not sure whether it affects women’s sexuality, i tell you… most indonesian women got it done when they were babies and i believe they enjoy sex equally if not better than their lose western sisters.
their loose western sisters????? excuse me for not believing that indonesian women have the patent on morality…..! I’m so sick of this bullsh*t!
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@timdog,
For your info, I do have friendly relationships with Muslims. Many are my relatives, some are friends. I dislike Islam because of its aggressive proselytizing mannerisms and its “I am right and you are wrong” point of view but I do not hate all Muslims like you want us all to believe. How can I hate my Muslim relatives which are very dear to me? I feel sorry for them sometimes like my wife’s relatives who put more emphasis on reciting Qur’anic verses rather than on proper education or normal jobs to feed their children.
I really do not want to boast like you did with your 10 year traveling experience but I support my wife’s Muslim grandma who has trouble to make ends meet since grandpa died and I even paid a substantial part for her fee to perform the hajj a couple of years ago. Maybe Allah will reward me for that. 🙂 She once disowned my mother-in-law for apostasy but she regretted and asked forgiveness while she was in Mecca. So if you want to put me on the same level with Osama please do so by all means.
I answered and addressed your comments fair and square and if you disagree well, that’s your problem, I’m cool with that. But if you resort to childish behaviour like you did in your last comment I have no further business with you.
@djoko,
In my view the non-religious/secular way of thinking is rooted in the framework of liberal democracies, perhaps within a “laïcité” concept and not in ideologies like Communism or Fascism. Minorities and freedom of religion are protected by the Constitution and Law so that decision makers are moderated by Constitution and Law in stead of 4-yearly elections. I strongly believe this give enough room for Muslims or others to practice their religion freely but in the personal domain and authorities should be strictly neutral on the field of religion. Religion in the public domain is for religious purposes only. That’s why I also oppose the subsidizing of Catholic/Protestant schools by the Dutch government. But I acknowledge the fact that some of the secular values have their origins in religion and religion can contribute to secularism and pluralism. But when I look at the Islamic nations (here I agree with Shloka) today I must say I have trouble finding these values.
@Shloka,
Thanks for your comments. I can really relate to them.
@janma,
I know Muslims who are opposed to extremism but consider their religion holy and free from faults.
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Lairedion – one more time: I firmly believe that your attitude and your aggressive statements about Islam are very much PART OF THE PROBLEM, making things difficult for genuine “moderate Muslims” by always pushing them onto the defensive, and further entrenching the divides.
You have NOT at any point addressed that… It would be nice if you did so… -
timdog,
Ouch, using capitals to make your point. How uncivilized. Are you sweating and crying yet behind your desktop? Are you struck in your liberal heart by opinions which don’t fit your world view and outlook?
What’s there left to say for me, timdog? You already have concluded I’m an anti-Muslim bigot and part of the problem on the same level as Osama or perhaps those FPI thugs so I suggest you continue to live your life with that frustration. I don’t really care.
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@ Lairedion,
Thanks. You might be interested to know that I too, like you have left my original country in childhood. My family emigrated from Bangladesh to India to escape persecution.@ Timedog,
I would like to address a few of your points:
You ” guaranteed ” Laeridion” that Richard Gere would face death threats if he made derogatory remarks about Hinduism. As someone who has lived in India from her first birthday, I urge you not to read too much into our effigy burning. They’re our national pastime. India’s favorite sport is cricket, and everytime the Indian team loses a match, the effigies of cricketers are burnt. Heck, everytime a popular actor stars in a movie his fans find a waste of their money, they resort to effigy burning. Of course its foolish and disrespectful, but certainly not a preclude to death treats. I would urge you to actually go through some of the books I have mentioned in previous posts before you conclude Hindus as a bloodthirsty lot!
You also mention the Anti Sikh riots but did you know that, there were an equal number of Hindu Brahmins killed by fellow Hindus after Gandhi was assassinated by a Brahmin? Anyway the killing of Sikhs pales in comparison to the genocide of Bangladeshi Muslims and Hindus by Pakistanis during Bangladesh’s independence struggle. The fact is India, Pakistan and Indonesia are huge countries with various cultures, and they would break into tiny countries if separatist ideologies were encouraged. Thus would be separatists, be they Khalistanis or Baluchistanis are firmly dealt with. Its national integrity, not religion and that’s true for both Indians and Pakis.
Also, I am aware that Islam is very tolerant of People of the Book as seen in some Koranic passages. But what about idolaters and polytheists like myself and my co- religionists? Even famous Muslim writers like Reza Aslan( who I gather is at least as knowlegeable as you) acknowledge that Islam is ” brutal to polyhteists”. While you are aware of the ill treatment of Muslims by the West, I urge you to read about the systematic persecution of us idolaters by Muslim zealots. Their iconoclasm contributed at least as much to the spread of Islam in the Indian sub continent as the caste system.I hope you are indeed interested in getting a balanced view?
Finally I am aware that I may have been too harsh on Islam, but it is difficult to remain charitable if at least two hundred people a year die from Muslim terrorist bombings in my nation, isn’t it? You condemn Hindu Fundie parties, but don’t you feel that it may just have been a reaction to Muslim fundamentalism? Its difficult to continue playing Mr. Nice Guy, you know under perpetual threats.@ Timedog,
You asked me for my solution, right?To give you an analogy Eleanor Roosevelt had commented, ” No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Likewise no one can change the views of 1.3 billion people without their willingness. Hindus came under tremendous criticism from the British colonialists during their 200 year rule which I have stated in a previous post. The colonialists criticism were at least partially warranted. However, Hindus took it as an opportunity to clean their own house. Thus what you call the “f***ed up caste system” was legally abolished in poverty stricken post- Independence India a decade before before segregation ended in America. I am not claiming Hinduism has become a perfect religion but we’ve taken many steps in the right direction.Apartheid was abolished in South Africa not only due to mounting interational pressure but due to their own realization that it was wrong. Abolition of Chinese footbinding, Christian witch burning etc all happened when the people doing it realised it was wrong. Though some Muslim nations notably Saudi, Oman, Mauritania were indeed the last to abolish slavery, today virtually no one in the Muslim world would argue that slavery is justified. This shows that Islam is indeed capable of change. Similarly, fewer and fewer people in Turkey want to be governed by Shariah law.
Thus if any lasting change regarding tolerance of other faiths, human rights or women’s rights is to come about in Muslim societies, it must be initiated by Muslims themselves. Until then, others will continue to criticize the Muslims like the world criticised South Africa during the Apartheid era. -
Shloka – I think – forgive me if I’m mistaken, I can’t be bothered to search back through the posts – that I said “India’s f****d up social system”. But in any case, I’m sure you’re aware that caste is alive and well in India; hell, it’s alive and well among Pakistani Muslims hundreds of years after their ancestors left Hinduism…
I also really think you need to go back and look at the section where I talked about the masacre of Sikhs, Hindu Fundamentalism etc… I was illustrating a point to Dewa, explaining that I do NOT consider occurences like the massacre of Sikhs in Delhi to be a “Hindu thing”… I really do need to get that straight; I’m not in the business of attacking Hinduism the way some people attack Islam – that was actually the point I was making as an analogy.
Hindu Fundamentalism is another issue altogether, and unfortunately, quite catagorically, one that, like politicised Islamism, has risen and grown through the last 100 years – I don’t think we need to get into a discussion of the reasons for that here!As for my reffering to bits of the Koran, that was not me saying “Islam is the most wonderful religion in the world!”; it was simply me attempting to illustrate to Lairedion, who seems to have a fairly rigid interpretation of scripture, that the Koran, like all religious texts, is thoroughly contradictory, and anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, can selectively choose their favourite bits to illustrate their particular points…
I thought at first that you were of the hyper-extreme raging Islamophobe – we all get a bit excited on here, and from the tone of your more recent posts I’m inclined to suspect I may have misjudged you to a certain extent…
As for your solution – when you mention things like slavery you highlight a very key part of my position: the importance of recognising the difference between “Islam” and things that may occur in “Muslim societies”… I too believe that a country like Turkey offers a good deal of hope for “Islam” – but watch out for the increasing rise of Islam in the political mainstrream there (just like the rise of politicised Hinduism in the political mainstream in India); something that worries me…
I disagree, given that with Islam we are NOT dealing with a single country, monolithic culture, or even remotely united entity, that “tremendous criticism” of Islam as a religion is in any way helpful… I absolutely believe that taking an aggressive and unremitting stance on Islam as Lairedion does is part of the problem and makes it harder and forces “moderate Muslims” to waste their time in basic defense of Islam…
@ Lairedion – it’s a simple statement, it reflects badly on you, not me, if you don’t address it: I believe that your rigid stance and aggressive statements about Islam are part of the problem; they force all Muslims onto the defensive and encourage the idea of “them and us”, creating more polarity and stiffling genuine “moderates”. Do you agree? If not, can you explain why?
Simple question… -
@ Timedog,
Sure the caste system is alive and well in India, just like racism is alive and well in the United States. An evil that existed for millennia can’t vanish in decades, right? My point was simply that, a casteist comment or discrimination can land a Hindu in prison in India, just like a racist slur can land a WASP in prison in U.S.A. Many Muslim countries don’t even give minorities, women and apostates basic LEGAL rights. India has affirmative action for backward castes, and the Chief Minister of India’s biggest state at present is a low caste woman.India had Presidents belonging to the low castes and the Islamic faith. Many, many judges and other positions in India’s government run industries are held by low castes. That’s definitely improvement.
Sure, Hindus have led to caste in Paki Muslims just like Purdah which was NEVER a custom among Hindu and Buddhist women, emerged after the Islamic conquest. Seems like Hindus and Muslims have learnt the worst from each other, at least in the Indian sub- continent.
And while the Koran is indeed charitable to Christians and Jews, there is honestly little in the Koran that’s tolerant of idolatry. I hope I don’t come across as an Islamophobe but as an idolater and polytheist I find that disturbing.
And again as you have a Bhagavad Gita at home, I recommend you read Shashi Tharoor’s ” The Great Indian Story” a rib tickling spoof of the Mahabharata. Its author, far from recieving death threats from irate Hindus, was widely feted and laughed all the way to the bank!
Gotta go now, I’m going to the cinema to watch a movie of my favorite actor and if I don’t like it, I’ll burn his effigies!! -
dewaratugedeanom says:
timdog
Well, firstly I’d argue very strongly that if you were to make the kind of aggressively hateful attacks that are regularly made on Islam on any other faith in the right circumstances your life could very well be in danger
As far as attacks on other religions are concerned let’s have a look at a specific example in Hinduism. You are certainly aware that a big part of the world, including you, finds the notion of caste contemptible to say the least. Now I myself can where I live be very critical about it and openly explain that the notion of caste in Hinduism was corrupted from the Vedic concept of warna into the hereditary system of warga, a key issue in Hinduism. Several Balinese and Indian authors also speak frankly against it. If dissension emerges no one gets threatened or harassed, and in the Balinese case religious leaders confer and work out harmonious solutions as they did in the past. In fact Balinese Hinduism is the result of such a syncretistic exercise between Siwaism, Buddhism and 6 other sects. I can give you many other examples as well where I, and others, condemn unabashed certain foolish and degrading customs pertaining to religious adat without risking fatwas or feel cold steel in my neck.
So tell us why, if you know so much about the world of Islam, why isn’t it possible for Muslims to disagree on certain issues like Ahmaddiyah, Shiism, Sufism and countless others without jumping at each other’s throats and being visited by a FPI mob.
If, besides fraternizing with Mujahiddin, you would also take the time to study the Qur’an and hadith you would probably find the answer for yourself.And when you talk about Sikhism you seem to forget about the fact that Sikhism is a combination of Hinduism and Islam, so their belligerent attitude certainly comes to no surprise.
About your dog metaphor, I don’t know if you are familiar with Bali but we have some nasty specimens roaming our streets that keep everybody awake at night with their howling. They seem to be particularly at odds with bule’s. If you come across one, the only reasonable way to deal with them is by showing no fear, not running away and certainly not trying to pet them, which only makes them more aggressive. The best way to keep them quiet is by showing an assertive, uncompromising attitude or by locking them inside.
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@timdog
No, I don’t agree.
I may have a hard stance towards Islam, I’m always willing to discuss in my own environment or here on IM with the likes of djoko. Nor will I ever resort to violence towards Muslims unless they attack me first. It’s already worse enough I have to use a nickname in order to protect my relatives in Indonesia because my marga name is easily recognizable.
Are my parents who left Indonesia because of the harassment they experienced from their Muslim neighbours (labeling my father a kafir and my mother a Dutch whore) and subsequently developed a dislike for Islam also part of the problem?
Are Christians who are starting to dislike Islam because their churches are being burnt down regularly also part of the problem?
Are Balinese who are starting to dislike Islam because their island has been rocked by two terrorist Islamist attacks also part of the problem?
My apologies, timdog, on behalf of all those people for not showing enthusiasm for Islam.
The problem is, timdog, you can never relate to the feelings of ethnic and religious minorities living in a Muslim majority country as second-class citizens. You think you can because you’re well traveled and had the luck to meet many different peoples and cultures but facing harassment on a daily basis is a whole different matter.
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Dewa, your extension of the dog metaphor is nastier and dirtier that mine 😉
It took me a long time to realise that when people in other parts of Indonesia complained about Bali being “dirty”, they were generally talking only about the noticable presense of dogs… they are pretty filthy… I find throwing stones at them works well… yeah, thowing stones, we like that don’t we… 😉Once more… ah, just once more… A Balinese or Indian intellectual may have the luxury of criticising caste with impunity – and that is a very good thing… for a Dalit peasant from rural Bihar to cricise the caste system is quite catagorically not safe…
I really, really don’t want to find myself pushed into a position of sounding like a endless critic of Hinduism – I’m not… I know I started it, but shall we stop talking about Hinduism? I will if you do 😉Lairedion, You’ve put one foot on the ladder towards answering the question and we’ve got a “No”!
In that case can you please explain why being as vocal and uncompromising on Islam in the way that you are does not in any way put unhelpful pressure on “moderates”?
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timdog:
I do not have a bigotted, intolerant, genocidal solution. What do you know about bigotry and intolerance? Bigotry and intolerance are two of the reasons why I live now in a (still) free country in stead of my beloved Indonesia.
I was a WNI until age 11 and then my father decided to move to Holland. And guess what reasons he cited? Bigotry and intolerance because of his bule wife and non-Muslim beliefs. He wanted to live in a free country where religion is a personal matter and family, friends, neighbours and authorities are not interfering in your daily life. And Holland was a logical destination because my mother is Dutch.
Here’s my “solution”. Needless to say I do not really believe this will ever happen.
Firstly I do not believe Islam itself can be reformed. Period.
Secondly I would challenge Muslims to use logic, common sense, reason and independent thinking in stead of blindly following 1400 years old violent teachings. It’s very hard if not impossible to find Muslims, even among the so-called moderates, who are critical to or questioning Islam. I’m sure there are but they are kept silent because of the fear being killed like so many critics such as Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Geert Wilders.
Can you explain why we can be critical on Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity in the public domain with our identities exposed without having the fear to get killed and why is it virtually impossible to be critical on Islam? Why do I use a nickname here on IM? I descend from a small Minahasa marga and using my marga name could have grave consequences for my next of kin in Tanah Air. I wouldn’t want to take that risk.
What can Muslims do for the world so that the non-Muslims are going to respect them in stead of Muslims demanding respect?