FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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dewaratugedeanom says:
@ Shloka
Actually, I agree with you that Indonesian Islam allows many freedoms like no Hijab\Jilbab, letting people marry outside their religion etc but you maybe aware that these freedoms are getting lost in small ways.
Your information on interreligious marriage is not correct. It is not allowed and I think it is one of the reasons the Indonesian identity card mentions the religion of the holder. That’s why many celebrities or Indonesian of means but with different faiths marry abroad. The other option is for one of them to convert.
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i think shloka makes good points.
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Purba Negoro says:
Inter-religious marriage is not allowed by Law since 2002- this was an extremely sad concession made by GudsDur- darling of the West to Muslim fanatics.
Under Suharto- inter-religious marriage legal.
Murdani- chief of Intel was married to CatholicGus Dur- change in 2002 to make same religion only marriage legal.
Furthermore- inter-religious marriages ARE INVALID UNDER INDONESIAN LAWE VEN IF conducted abroad?
Why?The State must have civil registration of all marriages- all marriages MUST BY LAW be certified by Civil Registrar present during the wedding- to ensure marriage is not a scam.
Furthermore- Indonesian who marry expat without prenuptial agreement lose property rights and right to own business.
Thus, although expat may “own” a house- legally the title can be successfully challenged as foreign ownership of Indonesian land and or business is illegal without proper documentation and investigative procedure- which usually takes 5 years of continual residency (I believe 300 days resident in Indonesia) to complete and approveI urge all expat to check their legal rights with accredited Advokat and expert on Property Law- land ownership is extremely contentious issue and Laws are Property Law routinely changed
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Shloka says:
Thanks for the clarification dewa and thanks for the compliment Kathy.
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Lairedion says:
PN said:
Murdani- chief of Intel was married to Catholic
Moerdani (not Murdani, like Soeharto and not Suharto) himself was a Catholic due to his Catholic Indo-German mother and his Muslim father not objecting a Catholic upbringing.
PN, as a self-acclaimed nationalist I am not impressed with your facts knowledge. Probably due to the fact you’re jerking off too often behind your computer screen since your comments are dotted with references to onanists, onanism etc.. What’s your obsession with onanists anyway?
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Cukurungan says:
To the best of my knowledge, far from being a dangerous sect, the Ahmadiyya have been at the receiving end of many violent attacks on their places of worship, and have been personally assaulted by mainstream Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia. I haven’t seen Ahmadiyyas planting bombs in Sunni Muslim mosques in retaliation. Nor do Ahmadiyyas produce FPI like thugs.
Planting bombs will only cause physical damage whereas the corrupt teaching of Ahmadiyah would cause collapse in our society. Ahmadiyah dare to change our principal no God but Allah to no God but British
therefore their existence in our society must be destroyed at whatever cost.The rest of the thieves AND NO HOPERS are in government and the civil service (or pass the time writing ..sorry cut n pasting to IM)
Ha ha ha …Mr Oigal please learn Pancasila and pencak silat breathing technique to Pak Achmad so you can control your high emotion due to too much bir bintang
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does anyone here know the book : woman at point zero by nawal el saadawi?
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Gareng says:
Someone simply watch the expression of the girl?
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I’ve read the book Kathy. Its simply unputdownable. Its another very well written book, along with Waris Dirie’s and Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s books for anyone who’s interested in FGM, and its consequences on women.
Waris Dirie’s book and Hirsi Ali’s book deals with FGM in Somalia while Naawal El Saadawi’s book deals with FGM in Egypt. Also Dirie’s and Hirsi Ali’s books are autobiographical, while “Woman at Point Zero” is a fictional work, and al Saadawi tries to show the injustice and oppression faced by women in Egypt’s patriarchal society through this book, as well as through her other works.
In 1995, CNN had broadcast a footage of a 12 year old Egyptian girl screaming in pain as she underwent FGM. This had caused international outrage over the practice. The Egyptian Government sued CNN for damaging the country’s reputation. Under international pressure, Egypt had issued a partial ban on FGM, saying that it could only be performed if the doctor recommended it. However parents used this as a pretext to circumcise their daughters, whether it was medically required or not. Egypt’s fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, who have aspirations to establish an Islamic theocracy, support FGM and object to banning it.
Finally in 2007, when another 12 year old girl died due to FGM, Egypt finally issued a total ban on it. Nawal el Saadawi’s comment on the girl’s death and the ban, “Bedour, did you have to die for some light to shine in the dark minds? Did you have to pay with your dear life a price … for doctors and clerics to learn that the right religion doesn’t cut children’s organs.”
The Opinion of some Muslim Brotherhood MP’s on female circumcision:
Sayed Askar, a Brotherhood MP, argued that Islamic clerics have differing opinions on FGM and whether or not it is an Islamic tradition. “Why not leave it optional for parents to decide instead of criminalising it?” asked Askar, who went on to assert that outlawing FGM was tantamount to promoting vice.
Mohamed El-Omda, an independent MP with Islamist leanings, argued that FGM is an Islamic tradition. “This is a practice that has been performed for over 1,400 years and it is against the Sunna [traditions of Prophet Mohamed] to outlaw it,” he railed. El-Omda accused the NCMC of exercising enormous pressure on the assembly to pass the law in one day. “The problem is that the NCMC( National Council of Motherhood and Childhood, headed by President Hosni Mubarak’s wife Suzanne Mubarak) obtained millions of dollars in donations from Western institutions to push their non-Islamic agenda on Egypt. Its members want to see this agenda enacted as soon as possible so they can claim more cash donations,” he said. El-Omda, together with his mother and two daughters, led a demonstration in favour of FGM in front of the assembly.
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justin et says:
Shloka, Egypt repealed the ban on FGM back in May. They also lowered the age of marriage to nine from 18: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681. They must be counting on McCain getting elected and cutting off all those infidel dollars they’ve been dependent on since the 1930’s. It was never illegal anyway. They just only allowed one day a week in hospitals, and most Egyptians are not urban-dwellers, and either have the local barber, midwife (daya), or a gypsy perform it in the kitchen. I told you about the tradition of mothers holding their daughters down and singing that sick little song. Doing it in the hospital doesn’t allow for that. It also doesn’t make it much safer, since the deaths from shock are replaced by deaths from botched anaesthesia done by doctors who think that women produce sperm and store it in their kidneys and who graduate from med school at 20. And there are just as many deaths from hemorrhage, since they’re often more thorough in the excision in a hospital setting, whereas they often tie off the vein that runs down the clitoris when they perform it at home.
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Lairedion
We’re not under the Dutch anymore. Although you yourself may either be on top, underneath or bent over by a Dutchmen- we Indonesians are not
Catch up please, since 1972, ALL Dutch spellings are to be changed. The ABRI 99% use only Indonesian spelling.
The spelling is Suharto, Sukarno, Murdani, Mulyardi.
Soeharto’s name etc is spelt Soeharto because it has
a- era of birth
b- Javanese tendency to not fix unbroken things
c- greater SAKTI0 in Javanese numerology
d) an element of Colonial prestige-Don’t ask me why- but some people spell their name Djokohadingrat- even though their name is plain Joko and they are not even from Jogja- hencce cannot be ningrat- like how Sean is mispelt by idiot Americans to be Shaun, Sian or Shawn.
Indonesia Raya was Indonesia Raja- imagine he confusion!
But linguistically, and grammatically Suharto, Murdani etc is actually more correct.
It’s because we like phonetics and a language easy enough for even a Dutchman to grasp. -
justin et,
Thanks for that link. One step forward, two steps back it seems.
I don’t know why the Egyptians hate America so violently when America has done loads to help them. I’d gone to Egypt a couple of years back and the ancient monuments and pyramids are breathtaking. One of Egypt’s greatest architectural splendours after the Pyramids is the Temple of Abu Simbel. When Egyptians constructed the dam, the rising waters of Nile threatened to drown them. America gave them millions of dollars in aid, and with American aid and technological aid and technological expertise, these sandstone masterpieces were cut and re assembled further up. Tourism is Egypt’s main revenue earner, and had it not been for American aid, one of its most beautiful ancient monuments would’ve been destroyed.
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Justin,
I appreciate your passion and obvious compassion for all women regardless of religion or race.So today- I promise not attack- but have constructive civil conversation.
I have here some links for you about Circumcision in Indonesia:
Most relevant one- US State Dept:
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10102.htmhttp://www.popcouncil.org/rh/fgc.html
http://www.cirp.org/news/smh01-13-04/
International Symposium on FGM:
http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/index.phpUNWHO on reliability of reportage:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7559/124/FIG1search.who.int/search?q=female%20circumcision
wikipedia:
Indonesia (No national prevalence figures avail., Type I and IV)
Officials are preparing to release a decree banning doctors and paramedics from performing FGC. Azrul Azwar, The director general of community health, stated that, “All government health facilities will also be instructed to spread information about the decision as well as the redundancy of female circumcision.”Here is Indonesian Javanese woman talking in Indonesian English language newspaper:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/03/11/female-circumcision-and-male-envy.html?t=1218787625#comment-3639She retain clitoris.
Practices of Female circumcision in Indonesia:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/04/asia/AS_GEN_Indonesia_Female_Circumcision.phpalso I include some pornography for you to see proof women in Indonesia retain clitoris.
http://www.lalatx.com
http://cewek-bugil-telanjang.blogspot.com/The FGM crusade- while laudable- has unfortunately over-simplified and lumped everything together.
http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/femail-genital-mutilation-fgmfemale-circumcision/
No mention of Indonesia.
Alternate position:
http://hoodectomy.blogspot.com/2008/01/clitoral-hood-removal.html“female circumcision (also known as clitoridotomy or hoodectomy) is a procedure that surgically removes the clitoral hood”
http://www.vibereview.com/how_to/clitoral_hood_removal_new_ways_of_heightening_arousalQuote:
“Clitoridotomy” (which is also called “hoodectomy” as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition: in fact, there is no genuine approval for this,http://www.singaporemoms.com/parenting/FGM
You will also find RAINBO- does not mention Indonesia fo FGM:
http://www.rainbo.org/search.phpI leave you with Italian obgyn:
“These mothers believe they are doing something good for their children,” Guarenti, a native of Italy, told me. “For our culture that is not easily understandable. To judge them harshly is to isolate them. You cannot make change that way.” (http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/culture-society/3142-cutting-tradition-female-circumcision-indonesia.html) -
Purba Negoro,
Here’s what a particular commentator, Rima Fauzi had to say about female circumcision in Indonesia:
“I know for a fact that while most Indonesian women are circumsized (sometimes without the consent of their parents, as I am a victim of such) not as badly as our african sisters, it is enough damage for her not to be able to enjoy sex in her adult life.
It has to stop, because a. we are not savages and b. the savages are not africans but the arabs who brought the whole female circumcision culture to indonesia in the first place by way of their religion.”And here’s her next post, addressed specifically to you,
“Purba Negoro
female circumcision equals better sex sensation ? are you friggin kidding me? It’s torture, that’s what it is. you are obviously not a woman, if you were, maybe not one with her clit cut off.
you dont know what you’re talking about. several of my friends and i are unable to feel much sensation at all during sex. it’s like we are solely a machine for a man’s enjoyment, while we should and could not enjoy it, because of the bloody circumcision. and for what? to limit promiscuity? most of the girls i know who are in the same boat as i am (including myself) were promiscuous when younger. why? we were curious about what this ‘heavenly orgasmic’ sexperience was all about. but still, nothing. nada. zilch.
if it were up to me, nobody should even come near a baby’s clitoris let alone cut it. people who still practice it are savages, no matter what country they are from.”And I got this from your first link to the U.S. Department of State:”Some religious leaders believe that the removal or partial removal of the clitoris is beneficial to marriage because a woman would be more likely to remain faithful to her husband if she had no sexual drive. Some religious Islamic leaders consider this practice a mandate of Islam. Other religious leaders believe that this practice is recommended by Islamic teachings but not mandated.” A woman would be more faithful to her husband through this practice as it would lessen her sex drive?
Please don’t interpret it as an attack on your culture, because I sincerely don’t intend it to be so. Actually, you and several other Indonesians have repeatedly pointed out that the Indonesian variety of female circumcision is basically harmless and I guess if it was merely pricking the clitoris to draw blood, which although it sounds scary to me, shouldn’t damage sexperience forever.
However, there’s this particular Indonesian woman- Rima and several of her her friends who believe female circumcision is responsible for their not enjoying sex, as well as quite a few religious leaders( re Dr. Istibjaroh in the article by Patung) who believe that the practice will lessen a woman’s libido. So I’m confused.
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Shloka, you are far, far too intelligent to be confused about this. People with an agenda, like Purba Negoro, taqiyya their way through fora like this one, and Indonesian women say something else. I think you know who to believe. Not Purba Negoro, and the ‘official story,’ but those who have actually gone through it and have the b*lls to speak up and tell the truth.
Egyptians hate America because they are so indoctrinated to do so. I told you about the PhD students in my department who think the earth is flat, etc. They get loads of money froom the US, but they also get loads of money from the Wahhabi Saudis and the only resistance to the government is the Muslim Brotherhood, who ruined Egypt, and who receive obscene amounts of money from the Saudis. They hate their police-state government, so it’s a ‘the enemy of my enemy’ situation, except they’re so indoctrinated that they don’t see it that way. And they believe, like the Afghans, etc., that the reason for their lack of upward mobility is not becuase their educational system is ridiculously horrible, because they are lazy people with no work ethic, and because half their population is chained to a stove crapping out inbred Nazi terrorists for Allah’s army, but because we are so well-off by contrast that it’s our fault that they are in that situation, when in reality we have it so good because we are and always have been a hardworking people and because 200 years ago our founding fathers assumed some responsibility for their own fates, decided that life could be better, and actively worked to make it so, which is something Egyptians can never wrap thier heads around. They can understand the Iranians catapulting their society 1000 years backward in time, though, per their own choice, and yet, they don’t understand how deeply the younger generation resents the sins of their fathers, who I believe were good, yet hopelessly misled people, who thought that a theocracy would be preferable to the Shah because, like the Egyptians today, they lacked access to real history and poli sci texts and didn’t understand how good it is to live under a democracy. That was a very long sentence. Basically, they’re incredibly ignorant, and they’re also Muslim, so they subscribe to supremacist, zero-sum thinking. The Copts don’t hate us. They’re good people who aren’t brainwashed and who work hard and educate themselves. But all Muslims hate America. They just do. We’re ‘the Great Satan’ because we’re a bastion of freedom, upward mobility, human dignity, and civil rights. And they hate Israel, ‘the Little Satan’ is a most narcissistic manner, since they just want the land that is theirs, always has been, and and access to their holy places, and they seek to live in peace under a Zionist society, and yet Muslims can’t understand that and consider Spain to be their land, not because God decreed it so, but because they killed off enough Christians and Jews once upon a time to make it so, and the yseek to live in peace uder Islamic rule. Supremacy doesn’t need good reasoning. Read Mein Kampf and try to figure out how Hitler’s racism made sense. He loved Arabs and hated Jews, and he hated Jews for racial reasons, but Arabs are Semitic too. It’s like the KKK hating Catholics. They were Protestant white supremacists, and yet they hated Irish people, the whitest folks on Earth, and didn’t find their brand of Christianity acceptable, even though in the 20th century it was very much the same as Protestantism, particularly in the first half of the 20th century, the heyday of the KKK, before the pill, legalized abortions, and the women’s rights movement. Structural hatred is inherently nonsensical. It will never make sense no matter how much you parse it.
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Justin,
if it wasn’t for you- I’d have no idea what taqqiya was.
So thank you for that. I like most Indonesians have very poor basic understanding of anything related to Sharia.You’re welcome to believe this alleged Indonesian Rima- who by another post claims she lives in Holland and is a Eurasian (so circumcision would not apply).
But to do so you would ignore your own beloved truth-telling government.
I would make more fun of you- but you do it so well yourself:
“all Muslims hate America. They just do.”
Good argument. All Muslims?
So by your logic- all Jews eat goyim blood mixed into Motse balls?
And all Jews are like Fagin and SHylock?
And all Christians never eat fish on Fridays?
And all Scotsmen wear kilts?“We’re ‘the Great Satan’ because we’re a bastion of freedom, upward mobility, human dignity, and civil rights.”
Civil rights since when? Since blacks were allowed to sit at the front of the bus correct?
Did you know the Jews Monsato were slave traders?
Did you know the bulk of slaves were n ot in USA- but Brazil- where Jews controlled the slave industry.Some interesting reading from Pravda- which means the “truth”.
There you can also read about how those Russians hate Jews too or (“zhid”- in Russian)
for the purely superficial-
sending millions of their people to Gulags, raping nuns, bayoneting priests, burning monasteries and demolishing cathedral after cathedral.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=213899&highlight=jews+slaveryActually, if you look at a map made around the 1950’s there is no Israel. The map says “Palestine, British Mandate of”.
The bible refers to Palestine too:
here’s a map:
you can print it out and hang it on your wall maybe- while thinking of those poor needy 4,082,300 Palestinians in refugee camps:http://www.wall-maps.com/bible/232767-over-f.htm
The figure comes from Jew Library:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.htmlFunnily enough, the world ie the UN seems to think Palestinians existed in a Palestine and were expelled by Jews for “leibensraum”
and Jew Library states:
“Through November 2003, 101 of the 681 UN resolutions on the Middle East conflict referred directly to Palestinian refugees.”
Also the Jew library discusses “British Rule in? Zion? no. Israel? no. Palestine? Bing!”states:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/brits.htmlThe UN even has its’ own site devoted to these imaginary Palestinians:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/test.htm!OpenPageBut the icing on the cake is a Jew stating his case for Leibesnraum- predating Hitler.
“The promise of the extended boundary of Palestine is only a future prediction, and merely a reward held out in case the Israelites would live according to the will and the commandments of God, in which case they should become powerful, and so numerous that they should be compelled by their large population, gradually to extend their boundaries to the widest given limits…”from
http://www.jewish-history.com/palestine/boundaries.htmlAnd Palestine is mention therein too- which nullifies your argument. By a Hitler-esque Jew.
And here- we read Jews talking about Crusaders in Palestine:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/crusadetime.htmlWhat about Jews not obeying Human Rights to which they are signatory to:
Article 13 of the UDHR: “Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country.”Israeli Total Contempt for UN Resolution 194- “Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do…”
Sorry sugar-tits,
Logic prevails over emotion. Read your Plato. -
Purba NEgoro,
Actually, this “alleged” Indonesian commenter Rima appears twice in this particular thread dealing with FGM. Her posts can be found on page 4 of this thread. She also has her picture as her avatar and clicking on her picture or her name leads one to her blog. She’s written loads of stuff about herself on her blog, including her zodiac sign, stuff Indonesians like etc. She says that she’s an Indonesian by birth, world citizen by choice and now lives in the West. If this is all a fake, she’s gone into a lot of trouble! 😉
I’ve read quite a few of her posts, some stuff in her blog and an article by her, and all those say that she was born in Indonesia, her father’s a devout Muslim from Aceh,and stuff like that. I haven’t read where she claimed to be a Eurasian, although she says in her post on this thread that she was circumcised without her parents’ consent. Maybe the hospital where she was born performed the “khitan” without informing her parents?Then there’s this other man called Michael who you also got into an argument with when he claimed that his Indonesian wife was circumcised. You said that the African variety of circumcision is absent in Indonesia.
He retorts,
“My wife was circumcised in a similar manner as in Africa and I didn’t say method you fool! Her clitoris is completely cut off! This is just so unnecessary and unbelievable in this day and age! And all your quotes are just taken off the web your no genius my friend!!! Yes I’ve been circumcised but with you they have gone a step further and done it to your brain Purba Negoro!!! Hehehaha…just calm down and read my post carefully and also learn how to spell my name its not ‘Micheal’ it M_I_C_H_A_E_L!!! U FOOL!!!”In his next post to you he says,
“@ Purba Negoro
An addendum to the above post and also to your brainless comments and that is….but Indonesians do practice what and the exact style of circumcision as they do in Africa!!! My wife is from central java and she was butchered the same way!!! May be not in the crude methods that they do it in Africa but never the less she was mutilated and butchered in the same way.”Again this man says that his wife’s clitoris has been completely cut off. Why should anyone disbelieve these statements which contradict yours?
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janma says:
Inter-religious marriage is not allowed by Law since 2002- this was an extremely sad concession made by GudsDur- darling of the West to Muslim fanatics.
Under Suharto- inter-religious marriage legal.
Murdani- chief of Intel was married to CatholicGus Dur- change in 2002 to make same religion only marriage legal.
This is simply NOT TRUE! I was married in 1992 while Soeharto was in power and I had to change my religion or else not get married. It was the law. I know so many many people here in bali who marry and cannot without changing their religion. This has been this way for the last 20 years that I have been here, nothing to do with Gus Dur.!
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Shloka
I don’t know why the Egyptians hate America so violently when America has done loads to help them.
Jealousy and spite for being on the scrapheap of history?
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Dewa, I actually think they’re too deluded to see it that way and vastly overestimate their own importance, just lik ethey overestimate the quality of their educational system, their post-Arabization cultural contributions, and their attractiveness.
Purba, and I swore I was done responding to you with your ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ education and your narcissistic Judeophobic rants, but by civil rights I meant that all people have equal rights under the law. Blacks would have been granted them long before 1964 if granting blacks civil rights didn’t mean granting women civil rights as well, particularly since we were very much a blue-collar economy then and had just fought three wars, so black and white men were used to working and fighting side-by-side. They weren’t used to treating women as equals in the workplace and it took decades of transition for that to happen in practice, whereas integrating the school system in the few Jim Crow pockets of the South happened by force within a matter of weeks. I would actually argue that it shouldn’t be that way and that civil rights should only apply to taxpayers since were founded on the principle of ‘no taxation without representation,’ so it should be two-way street and housewife tapeworms shouldn’t be allowed the same rights and freedoms under the law.
Have you ever met a Jewish person? Or do you just read the evil propaganda craziness your Muslim government spews at you and form your opinions based on that like Big Brother told you (and please respond by listing a bunch of books you read which are also Judeophobic forgeries and completely contradict history)? We’re incredibly likeable, very decent people, and for the most part pacifistic and liberal to a the point of self-destructiveness.
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I quite adore Jews actually. They’ve contributed immensely to the world’s good. Jews have lived in India for the last 2500 years. A group of Jews migrated to India the very year their Temple was destroyed by the Romans. Jews have also lived in China for 2000 years. As happens everywhere with Jews, the Jews of India and China were also richer than the native Indians and Chinese, however, unlike the Christian and Muslim nations which persecuted Jews brutally, the Jews never faced any anti Semitism in India and China. Did you know that the Chinese also form a tiny minority in Indonesia? These pork eating Chinese are Indonesia’s richest, many of Indonesia’s billionaires are Chinese, and naturally people like Purba Negoro hate the Indonesian Chinese. Having read many of his posts in other threads, I can confidently say that his anti Chinese rants are far worse than his Judeophobic ones. The Indonesian Muslims, enraged at being poorer and less successful than the Chinese, have rioted violently against the Chinese innumerable times.
The world would’ve been a much poorer place without the Jews. Jewish Larry Page and
Sergey Brin, invented Google. I like many others stumbled upon Indonesia Matters while googling FGM. The world’s been entertained by Jewish Steven Speilberg’s movies. Jewish Fritz Freling gave us my favorite cartoon characters- Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. And I’m just scratching the surface of Jewish achievements here.Jonas Salk a Jew, invented the polio vaccine. Muslims in much of the world claim its a Western plot to reduce their birth rates! So you see polio cases occuring routinely in the Muslim world.
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Admittedly India truly was once great- BUT unfortunately the British afflicted them with that most awful virus- the self-important, indignant Middle Class the- “I’m Berrrr-itish too, can you not discern my Victorian era English and accent?”-types
Should I offend Shloka and assume she is one of those. No- I’ll behave this time. But she is suffering selective amnesia.
In Gujarat province hundeds of Muslims have been disgustingly burnt to death by Hindu lunatics.
99% Indians find this utterly repugnant and demand justice.
My point? Those who live in glass houses…Rima also claims she is Javanese- but she cannot speak even the most rudimentary sentence?
No- Rima is a Collaborators’ daughter (daddy run like a Dutchman back to Holland- he saw us savage natives with pitchforks) with identity issues.Shloka and Teen-Angst Justin (I assume female- but your name is male?) may ignore respected Institutional sources- for two anonymous Internet forum charlatans.
Please note- I have not said it does not happen- I said it is statistically rare enough to be essentially non-existent.
Do you realise how often women here protest Polygamy- only used by (suddenly and conveinetly) “Muslim” men when they want some young whore without costly divoce?
This is an asian wide and indeed Indonesia vice: horny men want cake and eat it too.
Shloka- again you mock in total ignorance
We have sizable minoirites of Dutch, British, American, German, Japanese, Korean, Arab, Indians, etcWhy is the problem solely with the Southern Chinese Colonial lick-spittle and rent-boy?
They are a continual legacy of colonial injustice and economic who by own volition corrupt due process and governance.
The overwhelming majority of Chinese have violated the 1945 Constitution many times- particularly regarding Collaboration.
Indian, Arab and even some conscientious Dutch have fought FOR Indoensia.
Chinese? none- too busy lining their pocketsI would go into this in detail- but the Liberal cosmopolitans would wail and gnash their teeth while covering their eyes.
Read and learn- I think Human Rights Watch is reasonably neutral on this:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/064.htmlJustin:
Indonesian Constitution on Religion:
Chapter XI. Religion
http://www.indonesiamission-ny.org/issuebaru/HumanRight/1945cons.htmFor the slur about Muslims and polio- that was one Nigerian lunatic.
Indonesia has an far better record of population control than China or India. Fact.Now for an immature yet entirely apt slur of my own:
“…persons of Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and South Asian descent are more hirsute”- ie and suffer clitoromegaly- an abnormally large clitoris caused by adrenal imbalance of normal testosterone resulting in a “lady-willy”.
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/medicalpubs/diseasemanagement/endocrinology/hirsutism/hirsutism.htmIs this why you two sit legs-crossed, cringing?
Is it a bit big sweety?
Can you pee standing up?
Does your sister yell at you for leaving up the seat?
Are you afraid of a reduction so it does’nt dangle out of your briefs?? -
Israelis actually make the majority of the world’s medical advances these days, just like Americans rule the military and telecomm sector, the Japanese rock at making cars and consumer electronics, Indians are amazing with computer technology and software, and Italians make wine, cheese, and the best clothing and leather goods. But Israel’s medical contributions are the main reason why the majority of Nobel Prizes go to Iraelis.
I’m on the fence about Speilberg since ‘Munich,’ the ultimate Jewish guilt film which was a pretty skewed portrayal of a bunch of victims, which was like demonizing the passengers of Flight 93, but I love most of his other movies, like ‘Schindler’s List’ and his smaller, low-budget ones like ‘The Terminal.’ But I think that in Hollywood Jews are more important in terms of their comedic contributions, which are just too many to go into. They’re also, unfortunately, responsible for the ‘dumb blonde’ stereotype, since Jewish movie producers invented that to have one over on the Nazis. It irritates me because I’m one of a million blondes of German/Swiss Jewish origin. And while I’m hating on my own people, they (Israel) also never from Lebanon’s example and continue to allow in endless Arabs who will ultimately kill them, to the extent that no other country will take in those same Arabs because they don’t pass background checks, and they continue to not elect Benjamin Netanyahu, the only guy who can save them from the rest of the Middle East because he’s too ‘hawkish.’ But I agree that we’re a much better world for having Jews around. We would all be speaking German and Japanese if it weren’t for us. Imagine a world without even Neil Diamond. Would it be worth living in? I don’t think so.
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Neil Diamond. Shoot me now. Please.
“Song sung blue…”
I think Netanyahu is particularly anti-Palestinian since his brother was killed by either them or those affiliated.
“We would all be speaking German and Japanese if it weren’t for us. “- is this a boast at your Zionist New World Order- or did 6 millions Israelis repel the Nazis and Imperial Japanese single-handed?
I think if you read- World War 2 happened because Britain was coerced into a treaty with Poland (bizarre considering it was a first).
Poland had a treaty with Nazi Germany on the Danzig Corridor relinking Prussia with Germany- then renegged- giving Hitler the motive for an assault.The motive for war was not German aggression- oit was economics. Germany was the dynamo of Europe- with an efficient, high-quality industrial base second to none.
To say the war was soley about evil Nazis is to say the Civil War was about slavery. It wasn’t either- it was all economics. Otherwise why else did Lincoln not abolish slavery in Kentucky and Maryland (Sates of the Union)- he is on record as seeing slavery as economically intellgient.
Really- all said and done- had Germany not opened a suicidal second front with Russia and Poland adhered to its’ agreements it would have overran most of Europe with its’ latest technology 6 million man army not freezing to death in the vast Ural plains.
The US would have gone back to what it does best- bankrolling the Nazis.
Read up on Prescott Bush and how the Bush dynasty was made.
Then read about Operation Surgical and Paperclip to bring the very worst Nazis to America and the US.I meant UK- for “Surgical”
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tomaculum says:
“The motive for war was not German aggression- oit was economics. Germany was the dynamo of Europe- with an efficient, high-quality industrial base second to none.”
Purba, I wonder where you have got this information. German scientists attest, that racism and hate against the bolsheviks was an at least equal important motivation for Germany to beginn the 2. WW.“I think if you read- World War 2 happened because Britain was coerced into a treaty with Poland (bizarre considering it was a first).”
Before Britain warned Germany not attack Poland, the occupation was already decided. In this time Britain started to blazon out that they would help Poland in case of the agression.
But the help didn’t came. A treaty between Poland and Britain didn’t exist.
Read it again.
Purba,
the war was solely caused by Nazis-Germany. It was at the beginning tolerated by the other countries with military power at that time. -
I am not implying the Germans were blameless nor innocent- I meant the motive for American involvement was economic- not altruistic.
Then it was a war of greatest industrial output. Soviets and US trumped Germany and Japan and the Cold War began as a means for both Military Industrial Complex to continue. Economics, not ideology- is my point.
Soviet Union or USA full of millions of unemployed workers soon lead to revolution?I got his information from a claimed historian (his language was very good) from a forum. I honestly will try and find the source- it will take a while- but I will provide some links.
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I read in German history books in German language.
Contrary to the Japanese or French style (also Dutch, Italian etc) to handle with this less glorious past, in Germany they don’t conceal their faults and the Nazi crimes.
It is an open topic to discuss even in the school.
There are many books written in Germany about this time with different points of view.
You can read this (off course it is far from complete and thoroughly, but its OK for the beginning):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
or this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/
and much more. -
Purba Negoro, Walid Shoebat is also anti-Palestinian because his brother was killed by one of them. And he’s “Palestinian.” Netanyahu is a prophet who foresees the most unimaginable events in history before they happen. Israelis don’t like him because he’s too hawkish and conservative, and most Israelis are suicidally leftist. When he talk she sounds like Elmer Fudd doing Churchill, saying the most brilliant things in an unintentionally comic voice. Most Jews are anti-Palestinian because they actively kill off our brethren, even those who enjoy a higher standard of living than anywhere else in the Middle East (with the exception of royalty and the loaded Brits in Dubai, of course) in the West Bank, which is where “Palestinians” run to every time they get a boo-boo and need medical help or whenever their own terrorist political parties turn on them and they need safe haven.
By “we would all be speaking German and Japanese if it weren’t for us” I meant that it was Jews who invented the a-bomb and who were largely the brains, along with MacArthur, behond the Soviets’ knocking out the last remnants of the Nazis, the Eastern end all the way into Dresden. The motive for war, from both the German and the Japanese ends, was expansionist colonialist imperialism and ultimately supremacist “honor” culture, of which zero-sum thinking is part and parcel. They were both incredibly efficient economies. The Germans and the Japanese have always been incredibly hard workers who have always placed a high value on education. I would never dispute that. But Nazism and Shintoism are both parasitic, regressive, totalitarian, supremacist ideologies. They require other countries to parasitize in order to fulfill their ‘grand plans.’ Japan and Germany would have been just fine on their own, sure, but Shintoism and Nazism could not have, especially since Germany exiled and killed off its best brains, many of whom came to America and helped us win the war with science. And ultimately they regarded all the countries they invaded as inferior and blessed to have been torpedoed and rolled over by Panzers, the idea of course being to build them back up in the German/Japanese image, as opposed to the way the US helped rebuild Iraq or Japan – in ways which suited and empowered the people, since it was ultimately corrupt dictators and self-destructive forms of government which got them in trouble in the first place.
Germany’s technology ultimately proved inferior. Granted we had the whole American female workforce to build it all and they outnumbered the Nazis and obviously worked harder than the Jews in the concentration camps, plus Germany’s best and brightest (who were brilliant and without whom we could probably not have defeated Japanese), all of whom were Jewish. But at the beginning of the War, the first couple of years even, yes, it was absolutely unprecedented the way the Panzers rolled over Northern Africa and Western Europe (with the exception of the UK, who they just bombed the hell out of). The Finns destroyed the Nazis even with inferior technology and with a force of 1-100 because they used logging methods and logging technology to run circles around them and isolate them in the forest, where they froze to death. The Nazis were increasingly tactless the more expansionist they got and the more Hitler’s mind deteriorated into senility and narcissism. But it was largely American Sherman tanks which stood up to the Panzer tanks and ultimately obliterated them, the unprecedented marine landing at Normandy where we defeated the Nazis (with very heavy casualties on both sides), thus ultimately saving France (from themselves) and then rooted the Nazis out of England, since the Brits were sea soldiers and didn’t do land battle so well, plus and American bombs over Berlin and Dresden which destroyed the Western Nazi front (dropped by the Soviets). The Eastern front, yes, was largely lost by a lack of tact on the part of the Nazis, who had boots with nails in the soles which caused the soldiers’ feet to freeze, whereas the Russians had good American boots, not to mention bombs to take out the country of Germany itself, which was very easy in some parts, since Dresden was made out of wood and went up like a shikatawa. Germany proper, the lack bit of the Eastern end, was taken out with technology and manpower, not a lack of tact on the part of the Nazis. BUt at the end of the day it was a combination of lack of tact, inferior technology, and spreading themselves too thin that was the Nazis’ undoing. But their technological superiority over Africa and the rest of Europe got them very far, very fast before we came along. But even then their sea force could not stand up to that of the Brits. Of course, it was land they were after and they defeated countries in a radial fashion after rolling over Northern Africa.
With the Japanese, their technology was just as good as ours up until the a-bomb, and they had just as many ships, although we could and did build them faster. The Japanese invented carrier warfare. We had to build more carriers in an unpecedented period of time just to keep up since we only had one left before Midway. Had we lost Midway and not developed the a-bomb in the nick of time the War could have ended very differently. Their soldiers were also tougher fighters in many ways. Our guys were tired. They didn’t want to fight a second theatre. And we certainly didn’t have kamikazis. Their ships, bombs, and choppers were every bit as good as ours, but they were constrained by an unavailability of oil to power them, especially once they got themselves way out in the Pacific, which was why they wanted Hawaii. To this day, although we obviously produce superior military technnology, their cars and larger (and smaller) electronics are better than ours. I would never buy an American car. I’m a Toyota girl. And it’s the Japanese who are going to build the first viable zero-emissions car. They’ve completed the prototype. Thank God it will be a superior Japanese manufacturer who will be making them and not GM, who are of course working on an inferior hydrogen car, which is stupid and won’t go over even if they beat the Japanese to the punch.
Operation Paperclip is classified to this day, so how you know about it defies all sense unless you have connections at the CIA and the State Department. It was largely an encryption measure for intelligence purposes which successfully kept our codes secret by translating them into Navajo and Anasazi. And if by ‘Nazi,’ you mean ‘German Jewish refugee,’ yeah, we got their best and brightest, including Einstein, Oppenheimer, and Fermi (who was actually Italian and escaped Mussolini’s Nazi-collaborator regime). I honestly know nothing of Operation Surgical.
America stayed out of the War until 1943. If we had done it for economic purposes we would have jumped in much earlier. Yes, wars make money, but that war actually cost us much of our productive workforce. It ended up doing lots for the women’s rights movement because women just jumped in and did all those same blue-collar jobs, but I doubt that the American public saw it that way at the time. We really would have been much better off economically had we just continued to sell our military goods and technology to the Allies without losing any of it on our own dollar, let alone the cost of conscription and heavy casualties. We were doing very well economically, particularly in contrast to the late 1930’s when we were still pulling ourselves out of the Great Depression. It was when our shores were hit that it became personal. Prior to that Roosevelt could have never persuaded the Legislative Branch to go to war because it was an economically unsound decision. Ultimately our economy blew up after the war because with the exception of Pearl Harbor our country was not destroyed like every other nation that had actually managed to bring itself into the 20th century by 1945, so we produced loads of goods and services that there would have otherwise been a market for if other nations had been able to produce them. But that still would have been the case had we decided not to go to war, provided the Allies won, which would not have happened without us.
And tomaculum, you’re right. Nobody cared when it was Africa, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia being conquered. It wasnt until the Blitz hit Western Europe proper that anyone with a real army took notice. Neville Chamberlain is on record as saying something to the effect of “who cares about Czechoslovakia? It’s a tiny country far away of which we know very little.”
The Civil War was about economics, from the Southern side, since cotton was the backbone of their industrial base. The North did not see it that way. But ultimately an agrarian economic base would have kept the South in the Victorian Era while the rest of the world was going through the Industrial Revolution. The North was making steamboats and the South was making cotton, which wasn’t even very useful as a crop when compared to, say, peanuts, which have hundreds of industrial uses. The South was already was behind the ball economically by 1860, as always happens when an economy is based on what is essentially serfdom, where a few own all the land, the land is the only way to make money, and very few (who already own land) have any chance for upward mobility. So ultimately freeing the slaves helped everyone. Educating the blacks and giving them upward mobility (which I will admit did not happen in practice until after WWI and they were not granted civil rights until 1964, which is our greatest national shame if you ask me) was ultimately better for everyone in economic terms, even the South within just a few short years. I shudder to think of American history without the role that blacks have played in it: no George Washington Carver, no Frederick Douglas, no ALice Walker, no Toni Morrison, no Thurgood Marshall, no Jimi Hendrix, no Michael Jordan, no Jackie Joyner-Kersey, no James Baldwin, no Michael Eric Dyson, no Colin Powell, etc. etc. But it was about democracy as far the North was concerned and the sanctity of the Amercan Union, for which our forefathers had already fought very hard. Enslaving people and depriving them of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness went against everything America stood for and we simply couldn’t allow it to continue to happen. Lincoln was elected on the abolition platform, which meant that a majority wanted it anyway and he was a man of principle as well as of his word. Lincoln did abolish slavery in Kentucky and Maryland. In fact, Maryland was where Frederick Douglas went after he bought his freedom. Lincoln was on record as saying “I want God [on my side], but I need Kentucky,” meaning that he could not afford to lose the Perryville battle there because he needed Kentucky in the Union. Kentucky, along with Kansas, had violated the 64-40 line, north of which was abolitionist and slavery was illegal, but when the south seceded he vowed he would get them back, and Kentucky was particularly important as a foothold due to its location, north of which is Indiana, which was adamantly abolitionist, and south of which is Tennessee, which was a hardcore slave state. Economics was a factor, particularly for the then determinedly regressive South, but the Civil War was about democracy, the Union, and the Constitution, not to mention Lincoln’s determination to uphold the platform upon which he was elected.
_________________________
Tomaculum, I think that some of the reason why the French conceal their WWII history is because little is really known about it. The Vichy Era is referred to as “the dark years.” I had a French teacher in high school who would spend her summers in France interviewing old people about what happened during the Vichy years. The Italians are very forthright about WWII, especially since most of the population were partisans. Their history is very complicated, though. They were occupied by the Nazis, they had the Allies all over the place, and they had the Resistenza. Plus there were two Italies during the War because the South seceded and took the grandson of the former king as their monarch while Mussolini made a safe haven for the Axis in Salo` in 1943. While the Italians didn’t fight for the Allies anywhere but on their own turf, the Resistenza is considered important to their history, and unlike the French, who gave up all their foreign Jews in order to appease the Germans, the Italians had a huge movement even in government offices to falsify documents in order to protect their Jewish population. ‘L’Agnese va a morire’ and ‘Catch 22? provide a couple of interesting perspectives in the War in Italy. There are also a ton of old neorealistic films on the War, most notably ‘Roma, citta` aperta,’ which I recommend highly.
A great text on WWII is John Keegan’s ‘The Second World War.’ It’s very long but you can’t put it down. I knew very little of the Eastern end of the War before I read it, and it was quite informative. It also talks about the troops from all over who helped out, like the Indians, the Canadians, etc. I had no idea about any of them before I read it. It also goes into great detail about the production/tech side of things, which was a very important element. WWII was the first real aircraft war, the first carrier war, the first (and last) time paratroopers were used, and it had the first marine landing (Normandy), plus much of the war just came down to supplies. Japan’s lack thereof was largely the undoing of their Pacific fleet, because they couldn’t build carriers fast enough and they couldn’t keep them fueled. It was not a matter of a inferior technology or a lack of manpower. And Germany spread itself too thin it terms of resources as well, but they also made bad decision after bad decision and ultimately didn’t have good enough technology to keep up. Plus they built some of their cities out of wood, which made them easily obliterable when they were their most vulnerable. I also recommend ‘The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism’ by Chuck Morse, since, like most texts, Keegan PCs it up when dealing with the fact that much of the Holocaust was carried out by Eastern European Muslims, even before the War started. They ‘fought,’ but didn’t carry out a holocaust, is the impression you get reading Keegan. 90% of the Bosnian Jews were killed off in the late 1930’s/early 1940’s, for example. Most genocides carried out by Muslims are whitewashed by history, like the Bengali genocide and the ethnic cleansing in Sudan, the Armenian/Assyrian genocide, the slaughter/exile of the Jews from Egypt (and the Copts today) etc.
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I forgot to recommend ‘Salo o le 120 giornate di Sodoma,’ which I think is called ‘120 days of Sodom’ by Pasolini if you want to learn about Salo`, where Mussolini had to move his state after the South (and much of central Italy as well, including Rome) seceded in 1943. It’s a great movie with a misleading title.
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Actually, this “alleged” Indonesian commenter Rima appears twice in this particular thread dealing with FGM. Her posts can be found on page 4 of this thread. She also has her picture as her avatar and clicking on her picture or her name leads one to her blog. She’s written loads of stuff about herself on her blog, including her zodiac sign, stuff Indonesians like etc. She says that she’s an Indonesian by birth, world citizen by choice and now lives in the West. If this is all a fake, she’s gone into a lot of trouble
No question, Rima is real but she was only a fake muslimah and she does not deserve to speak on behalf other million muslimah who live happily in this country, Rima should only represent herself who speak out about her failure to gain economically in this country and her success to discredit her own parent. Rima is not more and not less than an economic seeker asylum
Comment on “FGM”.
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Aussies are infamous for their pride in peerless philistinism and ignorance. Get back to your pies so you can retain your crown as world’s most obese nation and runner-up to most stupid.
Then go sing (bray) at your local Hillsong Fundamentalist Mega-Church where you can pay your sins away.
Now regarding the omni-benevolent and totally uncolonial Ostraya?
What was the White Australia Policy- sorry: Whooiite Oh-stra-ya Policeey?
Calwell’s Two wongs don’t make a white? Yellow Peril- still a prominent statue?
Why is former Indonesian military prisoner Xanana Gusmao and Bishop Hortes are both so keen to do business with former enemy Indonesia?
Why did Australia attempt to assassinate Gusmao- then try and blame Indonesia- or paramilitaries- BUT Gusmao publicly cleared Indonesia of any wrongdoing?
Why is Australia’s Woodside petroleum trying to steal East Timor’s gas-oil right now?
Why did Australia grant so many moneyed Indonesian Chinese, in defiance of repeated extradition requests “refugees”- despite having no record of any oppression- especially in comparison to poor blacks- refugee applicants from Darfur, Somalia, Eritrea etc?
Didn’t Woodside heavily sponsor John Howard’s Coalition government on proviso he would engineer foment in Timor to obtain a more lucrative North-West Shelf gas treaty pofit-split than under Suharto?
Tell me about your Aussie colonial success in:
Papua New Guinea, Bougainville and and Ok Tedi? Tell me about Australia’s colony- and how well is the wealth distributed?
Average income? Average lifespan? Infant Mortality?
Is it truly lower than that of the Aborigines?
Doesn’t PNG have & worst rate of AIDS infection outside Africa?
Tell me about Chinese in PNG government like the those BHP bought and paid for:
PM Julius Chan in 1997 who hired Sandline International mercenaries to quell Bougainville?
What’s in Bougainville? A huge Aussie copper mine?
You whites and Jews- fat with the blood of the third world boasting a death-toll Hitler would be proud of moo, whinny and bray to your intellectual and social betters about Muslims’ customs within their own lands.
How dare you?
You obviously think us ignorant savages who just fell out of the trees.
You and the other Imperialists can go f*ck yourselves stupid
The West has nothing to offer the develping world other than perpetual debt and slavery.
The future is among those who give in return- China, India and Russia-
NOT
your sh*tty little rum+sodomy+lash, racist regressive Christian fundamentalist resurgent tin-pot colonial outposts
Soon we will gift Perjuangan Merdeka to your poor Papuan slaves…