Norway Shootings
Jul 25th, 2011, in Featured, News, by PatungIndonesian non reactions to the killing spree by Anders Behring Breivik in Norway.
There has been little Indonesian reaction to the Norwegian massacre – the most searched for items on Detik’s search engine remain mostly old favourites:
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Apart from standard official statements; Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said
We are very shocked and dismayed by the incidents in Norway. We condemn the shooting and bombing that have killed civilians. We express deep condolences to the victims, their families, and the Norwegian government
The apparent fact that the killer was on an “anti Muslim crusade” has seemed to excite little interest within the country.
216 Comments on “Norway Shootings”
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ET says:
Oigal said
The people rationalizing the Norway attacks in the western media and blogosphere sound eerily like those who rationalized the Bali bombings in 2002.
Actually having been in the region when it happened I gave the Bali bombings some serious thought. And to a certain extent I could understand the reasoning and motives that have led to the choice of the place for the attacks, Bali, and specifically Kuta, having become the Sodom and Gomorrha at the doorstep of a Muslim community who’s religious perception is pathetically measured in the hiding of female skin.
What’s wrong with trying to understand the motives of those you don’t agree with, even if their methods defy all standards of civilization?But if his depiction of the knight as a self-sacrificing assassin on a larger holy mission sounds familiar, it’s because it too is mirrored in Islamist terror. That’s exactly what a suicide bomber is: A lone fighter, often acting in the so-called interests of a larger movement and willing to kill innocents to draw attention to the cause.
The lone wolf also mirrored in Islamist terror? What kind of nonsense is this? As if there doesn’t exist a network of radical Islamist institutions using jihad ideology for recruting brainwashed idiots, training them in paramilitary camps, planning and financing their missions and supporting their families after the syahid’s departure to paradise.
The European Union’s 2010 Terrorism Situation and Trend Report has some fascinating findings. It showed that of the 294 terror attacks committed in Europe in 2009, only one was conducted by Islamists. That’s a third of one percent.
Thanks to the targeted scrutinizing of possible islamist risks and specific anti-terror measures taken by all European governments to avoid the recurrence of the London and Madrid massacres. Try to imagine what would have happened if those measures hadn’t been taken. It’s easy to deny the existence of a threat after policies to avoid such threats have proven successful. It’s like arguing that shoplifting isn’t an issue because CCTV does a good job.
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timdog says:
Here ya go Oigs: https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/te-sat2011.pdf
Unsurprisingly it seems to be the Irish and the Basques who are, um, top of the pops… -
Odinius says:
@Oigal:
Here’s the full report. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/te-sat2011.pdf
And the year before’s. http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/TE-SAT%202010.pdf
In terms of analysis, you have to keep a few things in mind. First, there’s the simple fact: in both 2009 and 2010, in Europe, separatist terrorists staged more attacks, destroyed more property and were arrested in greater numbers than Islamists. The al Qaeda affiliates don’t really stage a lot of attacks in Western countries, though those that they do stage tend to be on a grand scale. The other kinds of groups they’re looking at are more likely to stage attacks on a smaller scale.
Second, in the article Zakaria wrote that I posted, he isn’t trying to say anarchists or separatists are MORE dangerous than Islamists, but rather illustrate that there’s actually a lot of terrorism going on in Europe that isn’t perpetrated by Islamists. Or, to put it another way, that Breivik’s attack is not sui generis. Breivik’s attack is just right-wing terrorism on an al Qaeda scale.
The end point of this discussion is simple: terrorism is a tactic that can be employed by anyone. Some organizations favor it more than other ones do. But at the end of the day, what matters is the murder of innocent civilians and the hatred that sits behind it, not the proverbial sports teams the perpetrators claim to represent.
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ET, A minor point as I tend to agree but twas not me that you have been quoting…
Curiously, your outrage is running against the tide of those that actually research the topic, particulary in SE Asia, disruptions to formal networks has lead to the far harder to predict and defend against lone nutter virgin hunter. Check out anything recent by Ms Sydney (sorry traveling, can’t link). -
deta says:
When a muslim commits a mass murder, then the majority of media will grant him the title of Muslim terrorist with religion as the alleged motives without any speculation further, or any question whether he is a ‘cultural muslim’, ‘economical muslim’, or whatever. But when a non-muslim commits a mass murder, the worst title he can receive is Norway (or put the name of other country/region here) terrorist, and there will be room for people to speculate his motives, whether it is political, economical, cultural, even feminism (darn those feminists who incite terorrism).
Information is neutral in nature, but can be interpreted in unique ways. Those who own media conglomerations and/or have got massive IT literacy are those who rule the world with wider opportunity to shape public opinion. In local scene, Surya Paloh with his Metro TV and Bakrie with his TV One that constantly shakes the ruling party are fine examples and work pretty well. But I digress.
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berlian biru says:
Again I come back to my earlier point, if you simply look at “terrorism” as isolated events that should be analysed separately without any over arching context then indeed you might believe that one lot of terrorists are pretty much like another.
However if you wish to look at a global context and how terrorism relates to the body politic of international society, in other words if you choose to examine terrorism as a symptom of a larger world malaise rather than as separate, unconnected and diverse happenings like train crashes or earthquakes you can see that there is a greater underlying threat from Islamism than from other political ideologies.
Irish republican terrorism is a very discrete and localised phenomenon. There is no conspiracy to overthrow let us say the government of France, or even if it comes to that Britain, by a network of Irish nationalists plotting throughout Europe and backed by powerful Irish financiers in Poland or Italy. Similarly the Basques aren’t blowing up buses in Montreal or bringing down airliners in Nairobi.
To compare these various ideologies and declare that because they use terrorism they are an exact equivalent of militant Islamism is either mendacious or wilfully stupid. You’d have to be either a fool or a liar to pretend they amount to the same thing.
Do the IRA pose a threat in Indonesia? Are they taking power in several states around the world now? Do the intelligence services of several countries actively fund and support ETA to destabilise nations in Asia? Is European regional separatism undermining freedom and political stability in dozens of nations around the world?
No, of course not, it’s absurd to compare them and only someone who is willfully blind to what is going on in this very country and many others like it would do so.
It has not always been thus, in the Twentieth Century the biggest threat to world peace did come from militant nationalism and later from Fascism and Communism. However only an idiot would contend that these forces or ideologies present even a modicum of a threat to global progress compared to the very real and ongoing threat of radical Islamism that has been growing in Muslim societies since the Iranian Revolution.
You can stick your head in the sand for as long as you like, or shove two fingers in your ears going “na na, not listening” all you want but rational adults will continue to point out the bloody obvious to you whether you choose to listen or not.
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BB..But nor does it have to be either..or. I have often thought the very (and seems overpowering) need to label the creatures you are referring to as Islamic Terrorists gives them a powerful legitimacy they do not deserve and there is no doubt counter productive on many levels.
Indonesia for example, is it really suffering as some would have us believe a take over by Sharia terrorists or is it a just a tad more ccomplex than that. Personally, its just one of many results of a nation who has lost the ability to apply law, order and justice in the most basic form. Which came first, the greedy, the corrupt, the inept or radical Islam.
To put it another way, just suppose radical Islam could be removed from the scene and everything else stayed the sam. Do you not think some equal horror would move in to fill the void. I guess the trick is do you treat the disease or the cause. One thing is for sure, daily rants about evil Muslims without any attempt at balance is like pissing your name in the snow, makes you feel good but just annoys everyone else and makes the place stink.
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Some text in Osama Bin Laden’s fatwa in 1996 and 1998 (as opposed to Brevik’s manifesto) was talking about American occupation in Arabian Peninsula, economic injustice, exhaustion of the economic and financial resources, foreign debts, foreign policy, abuse and confiscation of human rights, and so on and so forth, that was clearly the underlying motives for his act of terrorism. But not even a slightest chance he will be labeled as economic terrorist, or cultural terrorist.
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Lairedion
My point is Indonesia is becoming more and more conservative and right-wing. Today the target is Greenpeace, I read about it yesterday so I mentioned it.
Didn’t you know that green is the color of Islam? Using it for any other purpose, even environmental protection, is noything less than blasphemy. Astaghfirullah!
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Oigal
Indonesia for example, is it really suffering as some would have us believe a take over by Sharia terrorists or is it a just a tad more ccomplex than that.
I agree it is indeed more complex than that. Terrorism with a capital T is only the more spectacular and louder version of an array of tactics to achieve the ultimate goal.
Giving it a disproportionate attention distracts from the reality of creeping infiltration, one bylaw after another, small but daily cases of mugging of infidels, distruction of places of worship or using poverty to buy off conformist behaviour like the wearing of niqab, which you yourself have pointed out several times. -
Lairedion says:
Adding to ET’s comment I would say creeping infiltration is also taking place in Europe.
In Holland some prisons and the governments of Rotterdam and The Hague were serving halal food to their inmates/employees until this was exposed by journalists.
Not many terrorist acts and deaths but a disproportionally high amount of demands, influence and privileges, especially against the number of Muslims (3% of Europe’s population it has been mentioned earlier).
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Indeed ET but if I may, let’s stay with Indonesia for a moment. Is it really creeping Sharia or merely a explosion of pustules on a already very sick patient? In my more morbid moments I tend to think of Indonesia as a classic case of HIV. All is ok until a number of infections, like corruption, an inept and crooked police system, a once fine education system plundered an attacked from within etc weaken the host Suddenly our once seemingly healthy patient is erupting in fetid, pus ridden boils and it’s previous friends run around screaming unclean, unclean. Hardly very helpful.
The question is, does thrice daily rants and shrills demanding someone must call the Templar Knights to lance the boils really provide a cure or should we be looking deeper at what really lowered the immune system and let the boils take hold.
It’s not popular but if we do a root cause analysis of Islamic ( if we must use that word) Terror, I wonder where that would lead us.
Before the shrills start, no one is making excuses for dogs, but maybe someone should at least consider out of the trillions on the war on terror, what return would a billion get on revitalizing the education system in Indonesia for instance.
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And just to confuse thing more, I am with you L, there should be no concessions to any religion by the state. Christian tax avoidance via dodgy tax laws, avoidance of jail time for playing with your flock, halal food, restricted business hours because of holy days..all nonsense belonging to the dark ages of man.
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It’s not popular but if we do a root cause analysis of Islamic ( if we must use that word) Terror, I wonder where that would lead us.
It could lead to the man who once declared “I’ve been victorious with terror”.
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Actually goes much further than that…just to throw another out there. I find it interesting that so many are concerned with the so called creeping Sharia yet fail to acknowledge the just as insidious and far more advanced storming evangelism and drop kick conservatism than has engulfed the USA for instance. You raise concerns about halal food yet in many states and more every month creationism is storming back into schools. Far worse, the nutters are calling for it to be given equal time as a science subject….WTF..Meanwhile a major front runner for president and current governor of Texas is an avowed intelligent design loopy. Talk about elephants in the room.
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Western Europe is where I live and Indonesia is where I come from and still connected to.
But if you read back my comments in the Barry Soetoro thread I do follow and raise my concerns on what’s going on in the US.
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Lairedion
In Holland some prisons and the governments of Rotterdam and The Hague were serving halal food to their inmates/employees until this was exposed by journalists.
Speaking of food stuff like this is the food that breeds radical extremists à la A. B. Breivik.
Oigal
You raise concerns about halal food yet in many states and more every month creationism is storming back into schools. Far worse, the nutters are calling for it to be given equal time as a science subject….
When push comes to shove do you really believe those creationist nutters will make any chance to overturn the scientifically and technically most advanced country in the world? To me it seems more like a rearguard action of those who are disappointed with the loss of direction and moral values in the USA and much of the Western world. They long for times when everything was simple and clear, and could be framed in biblical stories understandable for everybody. Creationists I believe are mainly driven by fear of the unknown. They equate absence of clearcut answers with chaos. I think your mate from the Atheist tread has more to say about this.
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ET, when they are getting creationism taught as a legitimate science subject, when they have a number of runners in the presidential race, when tea party loons can bring the nation to the brink of default…mmmm Well I would be more worried about them than others. Having said that the US has always amazed me how it shrugs off these sorts of things.
Then again OBL was an abject failure, he wanted to bring the US financial system to it’s knees with the twin towers, US troops out the middle east etc. He achieved none of these and directly or indirectly made life measurably more difficult for virtually every muslim in the world. On the other hand, the loonies brought the USA to within a day of default and are dragging the US to the most isolated, insular posture since pre world war two…much to China’s delight.
As for me mate, kind of hoping for something more rational, that thread is purely for fun.
As for the rational of the loons could equally apply to….. -
You will note I do not refer to “Islamist Terror” with or without the upper case T, I refer to Islamism of which terrorism is certainly a manifestation but in many ways the least important.
Oigal asks a good and reasonable question, in Indonesia is Islamism simply an outworking of a corrupt society? Perhaps it is but how then does one explain the equivalent rise in militancy among Muslims living in western Europe or even secular dictatorships in the Middle East? The symptom seems to be the same but the underlying causes would appear to be radically different.
Maybe we could take Islamism at its own evaluation and accept the reasoning of millions of adults at face value and stop trying to make excuses for them like some sort of misguided children.
As regards creationism in US schools, oy vey! and yet the false equivalences between US Christians and Muslims worldwide never ends, despite my best efforts at reassurance.
Let me again put your fevered mind at rest, I will state it very slowly. There is no planned takeover of the US government or society by militant Christians in the offing. It will never happen, it is not being planned, there is no support for it, no one is plotting to do so, it is impossible, a ludicrous idea.
I really hope I have finally calmed your frayed nerves on this issue. No Christian takeover of any western society whatsoever, in fact the complete opposite has been happening very successfully for the past century or so.
Relax man, it’s not happening.
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Wow, Sarcasim fairly dripping off the page there BB. Still must be hard being the only clear thinker in the multiverse. I guess you are right, nothing left to do but man the barricades and perhaps even call for a War on Terror, with a bit of luck we will be home for Christmas.
Thanks for stating it so slowly, that makes it true then and saves the rest of of us from even considering any other alternatives.
My turn now and I will even write it slowly, what common theme do we see in Indonesia, middle east, pakistan, and even western europe that could possibly be considered potential causes to the rise of radicals??
As for no equivalences between the USA and Muslims worldwide (not some Muslims, not even most but Muslims worldwide, them sneaky interconnect devils). As ET would say do you really see a Sharia take over of the USA in any reasonable future. Who came closest to bringing the USA to its Financial knees OBL or Tea Party Born agains?
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My turn now and I will even write it slowly, what common theme do we see in Indonesia, middle east, pakistan, and even western europe that could possibly be considered potential causes to the rise of radicals??
Well it was you who suggested it was poverty and corruption that caused Islamic radicalism in Indonesia so perhaps you can now explain why well educated British Muslims living in peace and comfort in small provincial English towns should feel the need to blow themselves and their fellow citizens to bits?
Perhaps the reasons have nothing to do with poverty and corruption and everything to do with a radicalised religio-political movement as the proponents of this radicalism actually proudly assert?
Maybe, just maybe, the radicalism is not a symptom but the malaise itself.
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Ignoring the fact that many of them live in for many reasons the lower economic strata in deary ol England and those that don’t have luxury of being declared lone wolves.
Let’s just for fun assume you are 100% correct. After ten years or more of trillions of dollars of bombs, intervention, lost lives and inane blogs calling for people to be tar and feathered or shot in the street. Don’t you think another approach might be worth try obviously, how long before even the most hard headed admits time to rethink the process.
I have of course made the assumption that you actually have something beyond howling at the moon, mass deportations, sending children to malaysian detention centres etc. Sorry but I really don’t see how endless drone attacks in Pakistan, countless trillions of dollars and lost in Afghanistan lives really makes Indonesia, England, Australia or the USA any more sharia proof.
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stevo says:
Oigal your moral compass is all over the place !
I invite you to return to the start of this thread. I pointed out how crazy it was to be in Muslim countries, killing people, on the premise they are a threat to the US.
Your response :
Wow..that’s so bizarre I don’t where to start Stevo..
You then did a total flip flop and have been arguing my essential point for most of this thread. While calling me xenophobic !
Do you actually have any considered moral position at all? Or is it just a case of quoting what ever liberal rag you believe to be popular, on the day.
I am talking about you and any other Australian
We are all prone to using inflammatory and intemperate rhetoric on IM. (Long may it continue) But to go accusing me of being an Australian is really taking things a little to far. I am hurt.
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No Stevo, you declined to tell us your point on several occasions when asked to do so. All we have from you is the white nationalists and the something about the Defence of some as yet undefined culture coupled with some real nonsense that there would not be the outrage if the victims in Norway were ‘nationalists’. Of course, that only xenophobes and hard right can be nationalists is equally silly.
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lomboksurfer says:
Thw USA was just down graded by Standard & Poor. This is the first time in the history of the country that it has received less than a AAA rating. It appears those bloody “terrorist” Tea Party Members knew what they were talking about after all!
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Oigal, allow me to refresh your -selective- memory:
It is not unusual for a man to kill in order to protect a way of life or culture.
Usually this is done by mindlessly following orders. We call them soldiers and the act War.
When a man does this because of his own considerations, we call him crazy and the act murder.
Yet we all know which one kills more. You can begin by taking a look at the thousands of troops the USA has stationed around the world, in places they do not belong, killing Muslims daily. Men women & children die & why?
This is justified as necessary to protect the American way of life. (Presumably from dirt poor Afghan Goat herders who, any day now, may launch an attack on the USA)
How is this any less “crazy” than what happened in Norway?
The fact is, the premise justifying Americas occupation of Afghanistan is even more absurd that the justification used by Breivik.You failed to point out what it is you disagree with. Is it ok to kill non combatants in order to protect your society, or is it not? Simple.
(I guess if they have the blessing of the black jesus its all ok with you and being an Army makes it more legitimate?)
I think my central point is clear. Distorting the clear theme of posts, cut and pasting out of context sentence fragments and name calling are about all you come up with to support your position.
Your either a contrarian or bravely battling dyslexia (and losing)
Calling people loonies, xenophobic, racist, yobs etc, does not refute whats being said or present any form of counter argument.
If you actually have a position, then just state it.
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It’s a silly argument, who cares what SA or any other country does or does not do.
This is from a IM regular who claims tolerance and is is continually calling others xenophobic and loony racists !
This poster goes onto to tell us that the only standard that matters is the Australian one. Apparently to think differently is racist. He then slags off his own countrymen as a pack of racist yobs, for daring to protect that same culture.
Confused? So am I ! 🙂
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Ah Stevo, seriously I assume you a just a troll because the alternative is far less flattering.
The point remains that one someone uses SA justify its position that its ok to be a xenophobic, intolerant arse because another nation acts like xenophobic intolerant arses is still silly. Even the most irrational should be able to grasp the concept that the day a nation like Australia takes its human rights and dignity pointers from a nation like SA its a sad sad indeed.All Australians racists yobs, no certainly not, people going aroundd proclaiming themselves White Nationalists…probably a fair bet. Still waiting on what that culture is they are supposed to be defending, I assume its one of the White Australia Policy, denying aborginals the right to vote, shipping children to Malaysian detention centers certainly not the one of a fair go to all, equal rights and dignity. The mere fact we have people declaring themselves White Nationalists is sad and show a lack of historical knowledge and the contribution of immigrants.
Still just for fun and yet again what do these so called White Nationalists stand for and wwhat is this so called culture they are defending from the barricades.
As for your point trying to rationalize the slaughter of children by a madman by comparing what coalition soldiers are doing in the middle east remains repugant even for troll value. As matter of interest no professional army in world operates by ‘mindlessly following orders’.
As for central pointt being clear..other than being clearly out your depth.
Lombock, Well the tea party loons push prevented aany real reform being down on reducing ttax avoidance by rich and mega rich and therefore reduced any debt reduction plan to a joke, so yea they achieved more than OBL.
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The point remains that one someone uses SA justify its position that its ok to be a xenophobic, intolerant arse
Not my point at all and not what I said. I have no idea what your on about. Go and have another look at it, or take a course in reading comprehension. These straw men get tiresome.
As for your point trying to rationalize the slaughter of children by a madman by comparing what coalition soldiers are doing in the middle east remains repugant even for troll value. As matter of interest no professional army in world operates by ‘mindlessly following orders’.
Utter and total rubbish. The dead kids are not any less dead because Obama sent the soldiers. How can you seriously defend the actions in Afghanistan. Convince us all how those people are at threat to the US.
You are ok with Obama sending soldiers & killing kids in foreign countries but cry a river of crocodile tears over a few dead political agitators in Norway. Laughable double standard.
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Serious Ody? Thems bizarre figures…. I assume there must be some pretty serious manipulating of the data for pc or other reasons or alternatively it’s time the whole world perhaps had a rethink. Not to mention a whole swag of hate blogs would have to find new shrill point. Would make interesting reading, you have direct link.