Norway Shootings
Jul 25th, 2011, in Featured, News, by PatungIndonesian non reactions to the killing spree by Anders Behring Breivik in Norway.
There has been little Indonesian reaction to the Norwegian massacre – the most searched for items on Detik’s search engine remain mostly old favourites:
- SYAHRINI BUGIL
- sex
- artis bugil
- ari wibowo gerayangi pembantu
- adegan panas artis
- hot telanjang
- 081977391381
- HYUNDAI I10
- kark
- mayangsari
Apart from standard official statements; Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said
We are very shocked and dismayed by the incidents in Norway. We condemn the shooting and bombing that have killed civilians. We express deep condolences to the victims, their families, and the Norwegian government
The apparent fact that the killer was on an “anti Muslim crusade” has seemed to excite little interest within the country.
216 Comments on “Norway Shootings”
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stevo says:
There seems to be an awful fuss being made over the deaths of these political activists.
People are killed in similar numbers for their political ideologies on a daily basis around the world. They do not receive the same degree of media comment and liberal hand wringing.
If the victims were not socialist, pro immigration, and European, it would never have received the same coverage.
Would you all be carrying on like this if the victims were Norwegian nationalists attending a political activist camp ?
I think not.
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berlian biru says:
Look at the dangerous heresies and crazy ideas that reasonable, right thinking timdog wants to shut down and prevent free debate about.
Mass unassimilated immigration? No doubt timdog believes this has been an unalloyed delight and brought great benefits and riches to the previously benighted lands that have indulged in it. Perhaps he’s right, but if he had his way no one would be allowed to say otherwise unless presumably it was done through some government licensed press and only pre-approved arguments and language could be used, pre-approved by people like him and who agree with him no doubt.
Challenging the legitimacy of US presidents? This is only allowed when the president’s name is “Bush” and will be regarded as speaking “truth to power” and described as “patriotic dissent”, anyone doing so can be assured of a rapturous reception at cinema award ceremonies and in the New York Times. If the president is called “Obama” any criticism of him will be dismissed as “racism” and forbidden.
Discussion of prevailing economic, social and political trends? If you’re discussing neo-liberalism/conservatism you will get long discussion programmes on state subsidised TV and radio channels to propound your viewpoint and perhaps even a nice little professorship at a half decent university (funded by the tax payer no doubt). Any discussion of cultural marxism or Gramsci’s “Long March through the Institutions” on the other hand will automatically have you censored and hauled off to the nearest re-education camp.
George Soros? A fine upstanding man, utterly without fault, a hero, a genius, a thoroughly decent chap. Any dissent from this opinion will be silenced without mercy.
Anthropomorphic Climate Change? Well I’m afraid that is simply beyond question, no dissent will be tolerated at all, the great and the good have spoken from upon high much like the College of Cardinals discussing the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, far too complicated for mere serfs and peasants to understand. Any deviation from this one true faith is heresy. Burning at the stake (using carbon free fuels of course) might be appropriate in this instance.
Welcome to timdog’s Brave New World. As mentioned above George Orwell had a few words to say about just such a society.
Have you checked out Pyongyang timdog? You’d fit in marvellously there.
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David
these old Labor men, rough around the edges as they were, were sometimes preferable to the new…
Thus perfectly illustrating the complete and utter change that has occurred in the Left in the previous half century.
The Left used to represent the working man, the Left used to be all about protecting the workers’ interests (and just for the record letting in millions of people from the Third World who will work for Third World wages is not in the interests of workers). The Left used to be concerned with economic issues.
But then in the post-War era the Left changed, it was no longer the movement of the working masses and instead became a movement of the middle classes, primarily middle classes in the media and academia. These people didn’t care about workers, in fact the workers frankly repelled them. The New Left concentrated on social and cultural issues.
Oooops, I almost let the cat out of the bag there, I used the word “cultural” in realation to the Left. Wow, that was a close one, I nearly used the term “cultural marxism”.
Oh no! timdog’s internet thought police will swoop and shut this blog down for using forbidden terminology.
Sorry David.
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Timdog thinks that the way to stop people like Breivik, is to deny them a voice.
He is, of course, quite wrong.
The lack of a voice, in the popular media, is a contributing factor to these types of events. It is a cause not a cure.
Most of posters on this site have plenty to say about white nationalists. Yet they have no knowledge of what they stand for. Their position is one of ignorance and it shows. Parroting the pop medias portrayal does not hide that ignorance, it highlights it.
The pop media would never allow the plebs to hear the true message. Instead they focus huge attention on the extreme elements in order to distort public perception.
White Nationalists admire and acknowledge the contributions of the Islamic world to the body of human knowledge. Similarly they hold the Indians and the Chinese in high regard, along with other cultural groups.
In essence, they believe in preserving cultures as distinct identities. This does not mean they can not exchange ideas, trade or what have you. Nor is it license to mistreat anyone. Its not the point.
They argue that if we become one monolithic multicultural melting pot, there will be less diversity not more. It is a very convincing argument. It is also self evident.
The left gets very agitated about this notion ……….. or does it ?
Daily we hear about various groups celebrating their culture. The Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Tongans, you name it, are celebrated for preserving and promoting their culture. They are proud of their well defined and distinct culture and do not want it diluted by round eyed oafs. Good on them.
But suddenly the rules change if the culture being preserved involves the dreaded “white” man.
Even on this forum we see that line taken. Always by the same shrills. These people are the real racists. If they thought the colored man their equal, then they would give equal treatment, not special consideration.
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timdog says:
Oh LOL, as they say, LOL…
One of the other things the internet does is ruins otherwise intelligent people’s ability actually to read.
Seriously, this happens all the time – angry folk spend long minutes typing aggressive responses to… well, they’d realise if they actually read the previous posts that they were responding to nothing!An anecdote: A while back, on another forum I posted a question about “nationalism”; did anyone think “nationalist” approaches to history were useful (again, not many people will read this bit, but I personally think any kind of stated ideological approach to history is fundamentally flawed before it even starts: that’s why I reach for my revolver when I hear the term “marxist historian”).
Anyway, I was thinking specifically of Indonesia and India when I asked the question, and a couple of posts down I spelt this out openly, citing the over-privaledged role given to Majapahit in the Indonesian historic discourse in an attempt to forge a legitimacy for the country not tied to the experience of Dutch colonialism, and citing several other similar things too.
I never mentioned Britain or any European country, and wasn’t even thinking of such places.
A page down, however, there was a gloriously idiotic response that went something like this: “rararara! you’re quite happy to have courses on the nationalist independence movements in Asia, aren’t you? But you don’t want the kids to learn their own proud British history, you self-hating leftie dickhead…” Something like that, anyway.I’m sure that in the days when people just wrote letters to newspapers, they actually read the article in debate before putting pen to paper.
Anyway, BB, if you want to tire yourself out by running around and around in little circles, that’s fine by me, but just for the record, I said:
And you know in truth that if some teenager in Bradford hears a mosque sermon, espousing no actual violence, but bemoaning stridently the lot of the brothers in the Gaza strip, once he gets home and switches on the internet, he doesn’t end up reading a thoughtful, meticulously researched, and calmly argued exposition of the Israeli position, driving forward to a proposed solution based on mutual accommodation, which results in him saying, “Hmm, I can see their side of the argument now”, does he?
Be honest here – of course he f*%^&g doesn’t!
and
But we do have to recognise its terrifying capacity for radicalising previously “normal” people – of ALL political, religious and cultural colours – and for taking people from a mild starting point to shockingly extreme places incredibly quickly.
But you have to recognise that one of the most instantly recognisable effects of the internet over the last decade, is to have pushed vast numbers of people – of all sorts of stripes and shades, to positions far more radical than those they originally occupied.
And lots of similar things too. Go back and read them. I used the example of someone with supposedly “right wing” ideas spiraling into internet extremism because… well, remember what this thread is actually about, by any chance?
But I also made it abundantly clear that this high-volume internet radicalization is happening across the board, with possibly the single most significant and disturbing manifestation being amongst Islamists.
But you’ll also find plenty of people who, starting from perfectly respectable left-leaning positions have ended up in the cesspit of flaming internet rage; you’ll find people who used to just think that maybe the government didn’t tell us everything now wallowing in shrieking paranoia about space aliens, you’ll find animal rights folk (who were, I have to say, always a bit on the wacky side) now overtly calling for the murder of other humans, and so on and so on across the board. The absolute opposite of the early utopian vision of what the internet would create.Do I really think the internet should be turned off because of this? No, obviously not, not least because all the good stuff will be lost too. And do I actually have any idea of how to try to tackle this vast, global problem, that seems only likely to get worse? No, unfortunately not. Doesn’t mean it ought not to be pointed out though, does it?
Anyway, I’ll leave you to tire yourself out yapping about left-wing hypocrisy and Barak Obama. Enjoy…
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Wow, take a trip for a couple of days and look at the bizarro I am left to catch up with.
Obviously, it is pretty hard to have anything like a rational discussion with people whose whole perspective is one of paranoia and extremes. Which is the point I think Timdog was making. The people who once made up the odd crazy loon down the pub ranting into their beer is now able to connect to like minded loons around the world.
This then becomes a self sustaining dank corner of the web feeding on ever more extreme and generally anti social views. I fail to see anywhere where anyone is being denied a voice on the basis of political leanings. It’s been educational even on IM watching people trying to adjust (and floundering) to an outrage beyond their now hardwired response “its always the Muslims and the lefts fault”. A rational debate has fairly quickly descended into the bizarre with a number of increasingly bizarre and extreme statements.
Mass unassimilated immigration? No doubt timdog believes this has been an unalloyed delight and brought great benefits and riches to the previously benighted lands that have indulged in it
Makes a nice rallying call for groups like the EDL in England and the Hansonist types in Australia and essentially encourages the racist xenophobes to crawl out from under their various rocks but essentially crap.
In Australia’s case for instance, the benefits of migration since the post world war are plain for any rational person to see. A large reason Australia (and the USA for that matter) enjoys the standard of living they enjoy today it was due to post world war 2 immigration. Curiously every one of those groups was accused of not assimilating, Chinese, Vietnamese, Eastern Europeans, Greeks Italians.
Very few countries (any) have a program of unlimited mass immigration, yet it is intellectually lazy to and lump illegal immigration, refugees and legal immigration into one dirty spittoon and expect anything rational to crawl out.
One of the down sides of the internet is the danker portions tend to allow the xenophobes and nutters to espouse any number of half truths or in most case out right falsehoods. One of our more local nutters is busy ranting about the evil Australian Politicians of the seventies who “betrayed” Australia by changing the immigration policy that had been in existence for the previous 50 years. Of course, what is not mentioned is the policy that was dismantled was better known as the “White Australia Policy” which was specifically designed to keep Asian Immigrants out of Australia.
Not to be outdone, we have simply nonsensical statements on this (you would think unconnected) thread such as:
If the victims were not socialist, pro immigration, and European, it would never have received the same coverage.
Would you all be carrying on like this if the victims were Norwegian nationalists attending a political activist camp ?
Whilst most would agree there is a “European” versus the rest bias when reporting any disaster, to suggest that the level of coverage would have been different if the victims had been Norwegian “nationalists” is simply absurd. Of course, the suggestion that the victims could not be considered Nationalist because of their political beliefs is equally troll worthy.
As for newspapers/media being sympathetic to Islamists and their ilk. Have look at the following Australian link and the inane, wildly inaccurate headline “Give us our own laws, say Islamic leaders” complete with the fear inducing picture of women covered head to toe.
In fact, the article was reporting that in responses to a survey the vast majority of Imans and Islamic community leaders had rejected the need for Sharia Law in Australia with the exception of perhaps the introduction of Islamic Banking and somewhat lessor support of recognition for Islamic Marriages hardly hysterical stuff you would think..
If you want some some real fun, read and feel the dismay at the pig ignorance of people commenting the story “It’s not fair because Muslims will get interest free loans and I don’t” then you can you can wallow in any number of other ignorant comments.
So much for the press bias.Most of posters on this site have plenty to say about white nationalists. Yet they have no knowledge of what they stand for. Their position is one of ignorance and it shows. Parroting the pop medias portrayal does not hide that ignorance, it highlights it.
I do love this one. What exactly do they stand for Stevo? Why not give us some Australian examples for instance.
Meanwhile, I am off the the BO thread to see how the birthers have recovered and see if anyone has yet come up with a coherent reason that qualifies BO as the antichrist other than he is black.
By the way, I do wish these tea party nutcases and conspiracy loons would stop calling themselves conservatives it gives real conservatives a bad name
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And lots of similar things too
You did indeed say a lot of things in your screed timdog, you usually do but in your haste to cram all your ideas into one long, badly punctuated sentence it’s often very difficult to get a hang of what it is you’re trying to say.
I just skim read your paragraphs for your little key self-referencing words that tell me the point you’re trying to make and your point was that whilst Muslims are radicalised on the net the biggest problem that you have is the number of right wing people with ideas you don’t like expressing their thoughts online, you thoughtfully provided a list of the opinions you wish you could silence. Go back and read what you wrote.
Of course you now concede, belatedly, that there are a heck of a lot of lefty headcases out there too. My opinion would be that pound for pound, spittle flecked rant for spittle flecked rant, by far and away the greatest proportion of out and out, hare brained loonies posting on the web today are lefties.
Israel haters, 9-11 inside jobbers, the Bildeberg group hacks, Carlyle watchers, Bush and the Saudis experts, Israel haters, global warmers, Israel haters, anti-globalists, anti-Nike, anti-Coca-Cola, anti-aunty Mary and Uncle Tom Cobbly, Israel haters (I mentioned them already didn’t I?).
Oddly enough being a believer in free speech I’m still happy to let them scream and bust blood vessels if they wish. Funny how it’s only lefties who wish to shut down free expression.
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Syrian forces have killed nearly 142 people, including at least 100 when the army stormed the flashpoint protest city of Hama to crush dissent on the eve of Ramadan, political activists say.
Kinda puts it in perspective I think (the deaths of political activists) I suggest many of the dead Syrians are not as political, as the dead Norwegians, but are simply after a more just society.
What exactly do they stand for Stevo?
Why ask this Oigal. You have plenty to say on the subject. You tell me ?
Your thinking appears to be based on the media caricature of Europeans who want to protect their culture. In your world its all about ignorant Yobs beating up little Asian kids on their way home from school and other such terrible stuff.
I am well aware what the media has directed you to think. I really don’t need to hear it parroted here.
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My opinion would be that pound for pound, spittle flecked rant for spittle flecked rant, by far and away the greatest proportion of out and out, hare brained loonies posting on the web today are lefties.
Then you are missing all the fun! I suggest you start at the BO thread, pop across to Fox and Glen Beck for a laugh, a quick cuppa at our local loons website, although that can get boringly repetitive.
When that’s done, google any newpaper with word muslim, sharia, jilbab or burqa, read the article and then read the comments section.
Just remember, its all due to the refugees, muslims and immigrants and something called obamacare 🙂
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Sorry Stevo.. It was a trick question, I never expected an answer beyond some xenophobic generalisation. I have no idea what these dodgy so called white nationalists (whatever the f that means) really think…what rational person does.
Stevo, to try and read what is written just for a second. I already acknowledged that there is well documented national bias on any disaster however your second troll mating call was just plain bizarre.
Would you all be carrying on like this if the victims were Norwegian nationalists attending a political activist camp ?
In case, the attention span has lapsed, here is my response
Whilst most would agree there is a “European” versus the rest bias when reporting any disaster, to suggest that the level of coverage would have been different if the victims had been Norwegian “nationalists” is simply absurd.
I know I should not feed the trolls but it is actually pretty funny that BB is mentioning the pound for pound lunatic responses and you come up with this sort of thing ..
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I have no idea what these dodgy so called white nationalists (whatever the f that means) really think…what rational person does.
You claim to not know what they think and then, in the same sentence, oppose what they think.
Thanks for lending weight to my point. Here you are opposing ideas, without knowing what those ideas are.
So how did you form your opinion?
Like I said, don’t bother endlessly repeating your indoctrination, I already know it.
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I cant understand it Oigal !
142 dead political activists and nothing much from the media. Whats with that do you think ?
I guess you are aware its a zionist plot anyway:
In numerous online postings, including a manifesto published on the day of the attacks, Breivik promoted the Vienna School or Crusader Nationalism philosophy, a mishmash of anti-modern principles that also calls for “the deportation of all Muslims from Europe” as well as from “the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.”According to the manifesto, titled “2083: A European Declaration of Independence” and published under the pseudonym Andrew Berwick, the Vienna School supports “pro-Zionism/Israeli nationalism.”
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Stevo, You are becoming more and more incoherent, I have no idea what the point is you are trying to make. Perhaps a Bex and good lie down is in order.
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Well to be fair Oigal……… you admit to forming your opinions in the absence of evidence or knowledge 🙂
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ET says:
Distantiating oneself from Breivik’s terrorist acts, one must admit that his manifesto – despite the Templar Knights and other freemasonry delusions – also sports valid points, among which his blaming of feminism to help erode the fabric of Western society. Not only has feminism with its unilateral pro-choice program been jointly responsible for the demographic suicide the West is committing – the timebomb with which our grandchildren will be confronted when politically correct multiculturalism turns into sharia controlled monoculturalism – it has also been instrumental in the pussification of the Western political – with its notable exceptions – mindset, no longer daring to take up the gauntlet and draw the line.
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one must admit that his manifesto – despite the Templar Knights and other freemasonry delusions – also sports valid points,
Mmmmm Very curious, have you ever said the same thing about any of the Islamic Nutter outrages ET?
Just to make sure I am keeping up with the general thread points here (and I have to admit BB’s pound for pound theory is looking more and more fragile) from the self proclaimed conservatives (and I still think its a huge stretch of a name, however I also think the conservative brand as a name is pretty much terminally damaged). Anyway here goes:
1. The Norway Outrage doesn’t count because the nutter was a lone wolf (please ignore any evidence to the contrary).
2. The is no Christian link because he didn’t go to church (please note the inverse does not apply for Muslims nutters) any religions symbolism should be ignored.
3. The Norway Outrage doesn’t count because Muslims are the real ones who will kill you (unless of course you happen to be killed by another set of nutters, in which case you are just a statistical anomaly, still dead of course but..)
4. The Norway Outrage doesn’t count because it was all the immigrants and muslims fault anyway
5. The Norway Outrage was useful in highlighting the role of Feminist harpies bring about the fall of the west (alongside one assumes, Muslims, Jews and immigrants).
6. The Norway Outrage was useful in highlighting the role of feminists in bringing about the political timebomb of Sharia for all and mono-culturalism (still not sure how that is going to work with China, India, let alone the multi cultures within Islam itself, still I am sure there is a unifying conspiracy just waiting its intellectual stillbirth.
7. Militia groups are just poor misunderstood families who hate big government who have nothing in common with Norway nutters except for the manifestos and large orders of fertilizer.
8. The Norway Outrage doesn’t count because its the same as the Syrian protesters (freedom fighters?) not withstanding one group faces government guns the other murders children.
9. White Nationalists are allowed to kill others coz their ideas are really cool and they are well known for their support of other cultures and ethnic groups.
10. It’s an established fact anyone who dares question the logic of the above in any way is obviously a leftist, commie pinko, whale loving, gay socialist.oops 10a. BO is still not a legitimate president coz ..well just coz…
Let me know if I have missed any….
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The hysterical shrieking of the Left in their attempt to censor opinions they disagree with and using the Norway massacre as a convenient shroud to wave is beginning to reach fever pitch.
In the UK a leading newspaper openly accused Melanie Phillips of complicity in the murder and another in its leader page blamed mainstream conservatives for contributing to the atrocity.
Norway’s Thorbjørn Jagland, a senior member of the Norwegian Labour Party and chairman of the Nobel Peace Prize committee, even managed to criticise mild-mannered David Cameron and Angela Merkel for having the audacity to even discuss the concept of multiculturalism.
It appears daring to even suggest that all is not perfect in multi-culture land will soon become a hate crime and have you silenced in Europe.
At least one liberal commentator sees sense and is warning against the hysteria engulfing the Left today;
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10948/
Now, as it happens, I disagree with pretty much everything Sarrazin says about the problems afflicting modern Europe…
But it doesn’t matter how much I disagree with Sarrazin: he should still be at perfect liberty to publish his books and promote his ideas as widely and loudly as he likes. And the problem with the post-Norway rush to blame writers like him for bringing about mass murder is that it is implicitly and deeply censorious.
In effect, liberal commentators and left-leaning politicians have ideologically hijacked the Norway massacre, turning it into a tool with which they might harry and hector and possibly even silence their opponents.
Hilariously, some of the ideologues milking the massacre in Norway claim that they are not in favour of censorship – they simply want to tackle what they refer to as the ‘incivility’ and ‘extremist rhetoric’ of modern-day debate.
In short, we don’t want to censor right-wing writers, we just want to deny them a platform.
Worth reading the whole thing.
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So one assumes you are ok with hysterical nonsensical press than demonises all Muslims so any girl wearing a jilbad in Australia will get some loud mouth yob abusing her sooner or later. Or a rational survey where all leading Imans in Australia rejecting the need for Sharia law but mention sharia banking would be handy becomes “Muslims want Sharia law for Australia and morons writing into newspaper complaining that its not fair but typical that muslim immigrants get interest free loans. Yea, very intelligent debate.
See that’s the trouble, the nothing is ever perfect but the fear mongers and beck type commentators pander to the most fearful sections of the community rendering rational debate useless. No one said everything was perfect with immigration or with multiculturalism but the debate is being high jacked by the sad little kings of extreme.
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any girl wearing a jilbad in Australia will get some loud mouth yob abusing her sooner or later
Sure I have seen this myself, when walking with a Muslim lady. Rare though.
I wonder how this compares to that same woman wearing a mini skirt & low cut top in Saudi Arabia Oigal ?
Are you suggesting the enlightened Muslims of Saudi Arabia would tolerate this gracefully?
On one hand you try and champion values popularized in the West, and in the next breath demonize those who defend those values.
Your moral compass need urgent repair my friend.
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I wonder how this compares to that same woman wearing a mini skirt & low cut top in Saudi Arabia Oigal ?
Are you suggesting the enlightened Muslims of Saudi Arabia would tolerate this gracefully?
Thanks for making my point, since when did we adopt Saudi Arabia as the standard of behaviour. It’s a silly argument, who cares what SA or any other country does or does not do. Once again its the point of the extreme that precludes any rational debate.
Although to be fair thanks to the hysterical nonsense on refugees Australia has to its shame decided that Malaysian standards of treatment for detainees is a suitable Australian Standard. I await with interest the first time they nab the next British illegal immigrant or visa jumper (who out number all other so called illegal immigrant) and ship them off to Malaysia.
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BrotherMouzone says:
@ Berlian Biru
It appears daring to even suggest that all is not perfect in multi-culture land will soon become a hate crime and have you silenced in Europe.
I think that it is fairly unlikely that any laws will change as a result of this – it’s possible that a few right-wing commentators might have their wings clipped by their editors for a few weeks but I’m sure that the Daily Mail et al will be back to spewing bile in a few weeks, as is their right.
Despite being a proud liberal Pinko, I certainly don’t think that there should be any change to censorship laws as a result of this atrocity. If any of the writers quoted in this Nobody’s manifesto could be judged to have clearly or deliberately incited violence, then that would be a different case, but merely spouting off at another tribe is, in most developed nations, their sacred right and it should remain so.
@Timdog
I think that there is an argument for less internet anonymity (says the guy with the name referenced from a cult TV show). If websites (as some sites have started doing) required all commenters to log in with a Facebook account or a verified email address, it would tone down a lot of the hate and require people to use the same basic civility that most people are forced into in their offline lives. Of course, the internet would lose a lot of its color…
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Oigal
Mmmmm Very curious, have you ever said the same thing about any of the Islamic Nutter outrages ET?
Not yet maybe, but if something comes up I certainly will. Come to think of it, what I admire in those Islamic Nutters is their sense of brotherhood, family values, solidarity and perseverance in the face of a common enemy, in contrast with the backstabbing, nest defiling and betrayal of its cultural inheritance that is undermining the modern West.
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Lairedion says:
If you have a dislike for left-liberalism I guess you guys are well-placed in Indonesia becoming more and more conservative and right-wing. Greenpeace is now the next big target. No complaints on that I guess?
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Thanks for making my point, since when did we adopt Saudi Arabia as the standard of behaviour. It’s a silly argument, who cares what SA or any other country does or does not do.
What “we” are you talking about Oigal? There are a few million Muslims who do use SA as a standard. Some live in Norway as a matter of fact. They do care.
Come to think of it, what I admire in those Islamic Nutters is their sense of brotherhood, family values, solidarity and perseverance in the face of a common enemy, in contrast with the backstabbing, nest defiling and betrayal of its cultural inheritance that is undermining the modern West.
Increasingly I find myself thinking the same way ET. You cant sell out your culture and then blame others for accepting whats offered.
Greenpeace is now the next big target. No complaints on that I guess?
Got that right Lairedion ! Even the founder members now speak out publicly against them and other (so called) environmental groups. They are an extreme left wing fringe group and care not a dot about the environment. Probably why you, do, like them I guess.
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Honestly Stevo, you are all over the place like a madwoman’s sh*t..
What “we” are you talking about Oigal?
Well at a punt, I would suggest I am talking about you and any other Australian who uses the nonsensical argument Australians should be intolerant, racist ars*holes because SA. I an including you because..eeer read it for yourself..sheesh
I wonder how this compares to that same woman wearing a mini skirt & low cut top in Saudi Arabia Oigal
Increasingly I find myself thinking the same way ET. You cant sell out your culture and then blame others for accepting whats offered.
Ask you before Stevo but you passed, what culture is that, the one of a fair go, equal rights for everyone regardless of race, creed or religion where everyone is treated as human being or the one where we generalize and demonise certain groups of people based on their race and religion. Do i detect a hankering for the good ol days of the white australia policy, where aboriginals were not allowed to vote and perhaps even a bit of poofter bashing on saturday night. Sorry if I put words into your mouth perhaps you can enlighten us of what culture you are actually referring to.
They are an extreme left wing fringe group and care not a dot about the environment
Yea dang communists the lot of them…not like Indonesia needs any environmental watchdogs anyway 🙂
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Astaga ieu bule….
My point is Indonesia is becoming more and more conservative and right-wing. Today the target is Greenpeace, I read about it yesterday so I mentioned it. Tomorrow night clubs and after puasa back to ethnic and religious minorities (Ahmadiyah, GKI Yasmin Bogor, HKBP Bekasi and many more).
Being of Javanese/Manadonese descent with many non-Muslim relatives and friends the rise of conservatism in Indonesia is a matter of great concern. But since you support conservative/right-wing policies you shouldn’t have complaints.
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Astaga is right 🙂
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Odinius says:
Oigal said:
Mmmmm Very curious, have you ever said the same thing about any of the Islamic Nutter outrages ET?
The people rationalizing the Norway attacks in the western media and blogosphere sound eerily like those who rationalized the Bali bombings in 2002.
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This is telling:
People like Breivik are trying to resurrect the idea of a modern-day Crusade, a real clash of civilizations against what they see as an Islamic invasion of Europe.
In fact, Muslims make up only about 3 % of Europe’s population and are likely to rise to between 5% and 8% by 2025 and level out at that point. But that doesn’t change the reality of the anger, hatred and violence.
Ironically, in Breivik’s nostalgic view of the medieval world, the Knights Templar resembles nothing so much as al Qaeda, a terrorist organization that is fundamentally opposed to the modern world.
We still don’t know if Breivik’s boast that there are more lone knights like him waiting to act is true. But if his depiction of the knight as a self-sacrificing assassin on a larger holy mission sounds familiar, it’s because it too is mirrored in Islamist terror. That’s exactly what a suicide bomber is: A lone fighter, often acting in the so-called interests of a larger movement and willing to kill innocents to draw attention to the cause.
While we have all focused on the dangers of radical Islam and of Muslim terror, the attack in Norway should remind us that there is actually a pretty large problem of other sources of terrorism in the West.
The European Union’s 2010 Terrorism Situation and Trend Report has some fascinating findings. It showed that of the 294 terror attacks committed in Europe in 2009, only one was conducted by Islamists. That’s a third of one percent.
The most recent statistics show there were 249 terror attacks in Europe in 2010. Only three of those attacks were carried out by Islamist terrorists. Again, that’s about one percent. Most of the attacks were by separatist groups or anarchists.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/31/what-is-the-knights-templar/
Comment on “Norway Shootings”.
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ET, I go in my public library all the time when I’m in the UK; most of its other visitors seem to be little old ladies borrowing large-print Catherine Cookson novels (for free; that’s how public libraries work in case you didn’t realise), and homeless alcoholics reading the newspapers. In short, the people least likely to have an internet connection. Funny kind of elitism, that. Perhaps you’ve never been inside a public library.
That’s just a point of order; on your other points, this –
– is precisely the utopian early vision of the internet I referred to above. But you know, and I know, that for many millions of people that’s not how things have worked out.
And you know in truth that if some teenager in Bradford hears a mosque sermon, espousing no actual violence, but bemoaning stridently the lot of the brothers in the Gaza strip, once he gets home and switches on the internet, he doesn’t end up reading a thoughtful, meticulously researched, and calmly argued exposition of the Israeli position, driving forward to a proposed solution based on mutual accommodation, which results in him saying, “Hmm, I can see their side of the argument now”, does he?
Be honest here – of course he f*%^&g doesn’t!
And nor does some “English patriot”, who gets all steamed up after reading Melanie Philips latest screed over his cornflakes, then go to the internet and read, with a calm and open mind, a gently argued counterpoint full of verified facts which results in him shrugging and saying “Oh, I suppose if you look at things that way…” and toddling off to work whistling through his teeth with not a care in the world…
Of course he f*&^g doesn’t!
Now, there are many reasons why I wouldn’t really want to turn the internet off, outside of the odd bleak moment.
But we do have to recognise its terrifying capacity for radicalising previously “normal” people – of ALL political, religious and cultural colours – and for taking people from a mild starting point to shockingly extreme places incredibly quickly.
There are places – like this very website (mainly because its starting point is a “place”, something relatively apolitical, therefore attracting a wide range of participants, and also because the webmaster has gradually pulled back the site’s identifiable “editorial line” over the years); also like, say, a general “history” forum, or an authentically apolitical news forum (but how many of them are there, to be honest?) – where there is at least an exchange of views. (Although, given that very many of the commentators are simply dashing back and forth to the supermarket shelves of wikipedia, google, and the lower blogosphere between their postings, I’m by no means sure that many people get their own position modified to a LESS radical position in the process).
But you have to recognise that one of the most instantly recognisable effects of the internet over the last decade, is to have pushed vast numbers of people – of all sorts of stripes and shades, to positions far more radical than those they originally occupied.
Yes, of course “Guns don’t kill, the finger that pulls the trigger does”; but even in the case of a bone fide lunatic, if there is any sort of “political” aspect to his motivation, he didn’t just wake up and go out to buy that gun (or build that bomb) in an intellectual void.
To attempt to claim otherwise is just silly.