Barry Soetoro
Nov 6th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest WriterBarry Soetoro aka Barack Obama’s Indonesian connection.
Former Menteng student now US President
Obama Barack has been democratically elected President of the US.
Quite an about face for the best democracy money can buy, in view of the Bush presidential se-lection.
But of course, corruption, collusion and nepotism is the sole monopoly of the Third World – or so the deluded denizens of the West repeat to themselves as they hug their knees, rocking back and forth – reminding themselves of how they uphold human rights equally across the board, entirely devoid of double-standards and totally oblivious to race, creed or religion.
Barrak Hussein Obama II was born to a white American Ann Dunham and Kenyan Barrak Hussein Obama Snr, in Nyang’oma Kogelo now in Kenya.
Here the Indonesian link starts.
Ann Dunham married in 1967 Lolo Soetoro, a Javanese, whose own father, in 1946 was killed along with his eldest brother were killed, after which the Dutch army burned down the family’s home. Soetoro fled with his mother into the countryside to survive. Incidentally yet more proof of Dutch war crimes – delibrate destruction of civilian property outside the scope of battle.
Pak Lolo Soetoro was an army geologist then later a government relations consultant for Mobil Oil. Obama describes Soetoro as well-mannered, even-tempered, and easy with people.
Barry Soetoro in Indonesia with mother Ann Dunham, step-father Lolo Soetoro, baby-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng.
From age 6 to 10, Obama lived in Jakarta. Age six, Obama attended the Catholic Primary St Francis di Assisi. Much was made of the lie he was educated in a Madrassa – or more accurately a pesantren – this of course was totally untrue. Obama Jnr later attended Model Primary School, Menteng and was registered as a Muslim – as his father was Muslim.
In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies. My mother wasn’t overly concerned. ‘Be respectful,’ she’d say. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I would close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended. Just a parched old nun and 30 brown children, muttering words.
One of “Berry’s” childhood friends was Adi who often visited “Berry’s” 16 Jalan Haji Ramli house. Speaking volumes of Dutch “development” at the time the road was of this established middle-class neighbourhood was a dirt lane where Obama used to wile away the hours kicking a soccer ball.
Adi recalled Obama and his friends wore plastic bags over their shoes to walk through the muddy street during the rainy seasons.
Neighborhood Muslims worshiped in a nearby house, which has since been replaced by a larger mosque. Sometimes, when the muezzin sounded the call to prayer, Lolo and Barry would walk to the makeshift mosque together, Adi said.
His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque,” Adi said. “I remember him wearing a sarong.”
Obama spent most his spare time hanging out with Adi and other friends at the home of Yunaldi Askiar, a classmate. They used to play a kind of fencing game using sticks, kick a ball up and down the narrow dirt lanes or go swimming in the river behind the school, said Askiar, 42, a car mechanic.
Obama was taller and better dressed than most kids in classes where shoes and socks were still luxuries, so he stood out from the start. As an African American, and the only foreigner, he suffered racial taunts and teasing but never turned to violence.
“At first, everybody felt it was weird to have him here,” Israella Dharmawan, his first grade teacher said. “But also they were curious about him, so wherever he went, the kids were following him.”
His friends enjoyed playing tricks on Berry: Harmon ASki recalled,
“Sometimes we’d say, ‘Barry, do you want a chocolate?’ And we’d give him a chocolate. The next day we’d give him a chocolate again. The third time we’d give him terasi (fermented shrimp paste) wrapped up like chocolate. Obama didn’t get mad. He would laugh it off.”
Ann Soetoro moved to Yogyakarta, while Obama Jnr studied in Jakarta. She was inspired by Jogja village industries, which became the basis of her 1992 doctoral dissertation.
“She loved living in Java,” said Dr. Dewey, who recalled accompanying Ms. Soetoro to a metalworking village. “People said: ‘Hi! How are you?’ She said: ‘How’s your wife? Did your daughter have the baby?’ They were friends. Then she’d whip out her notebook and she’d say: ‘How many of you have electricity? Are you having trouble getting iron?’ ”
Dunham-Soetoro became a consultant for the United States Agency for International Development on setting up a village credit program, then a Ford Foundation program officer in Jakarta specializing in women’s work. Later, she was a consultant in Pakistan, then joined Indonesia’s oldest bank to work on what is described as the world’s largest sustainable microfinance program, creating services like credit and savings for the poor.
Obama in Hawaii with Maya and Ann and maternal grand-father, shortly after leaving Indonesia.
In his tellingly-titled Memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama describes his Indonesian interlude as “one long adventure, the bounty of a young boy’s life”. But he also recalls being troubled by the poverty around him: “the empty look on the faces of farmers the year the rains never came,” and the desperation of the disabled beggars who came to the family’s door.
“The world was violent, I was learning, unpredictable and often cruel,” he writes. Obama and his mother thus we were very well acquainted with the harsh realities of indigenous Indonesians.
Fermina Katarina Sinaga, recalled yojhng Obama in her class: in the common task of class to write an essay titled “My dream: What I want to be in the future.” Obama “wrote ‘I want to be a president,’ ” she said. During a later writing assignment on family, he wrote, “My father is my idol.
The Indonesian connection for Obama and all that shaped him proving once again all things Javanese and indigenous Indonesian the bedrock for the towering monuments built on the foundations of a great civilisation.
1,047 Comments on “Barry Soetoro”
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Cliff says:
# BrotherMouzone Says:
May 20th, 2010 at 1:19 pm@Cliff
many people do not think that America has been governed according to the constitution, and that is why we are trying to get the socialists out of government.
Golly! That sounds like a great idea. If only there were some sort of way that the majority of people in America could get the government they want… I don’t know, perhaps some kind of vote or poll?
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Maybe we could try avoiding the welfare office, and just go on to the voting booth on election day, and vote for an American instead of a dam socialist.But then,if we do that we may not be able to get our government to steal from all of those nasty rich people so that our government can take care of us while we sit on are lazy ass,es.
There are so many things to look at here, maybe socialism is the way to go, it just don,t seem fair that some people has more money than others, and gee, why should any one have to work?
Maybe the socialist idea that every one should be poor is the right way to go, after all, if every one was starving to death there would be no class hatred..
The only problem with that would be that the government people would be the only one,s eating and there might be a few people that would then resent the people in government.
The rich people and the working people are taking care of millions of people here in America alone, not to mention the people in other parts of the world.
Who are they taking care of?
Millions of people who can not work, many thousands of unwed mothers, millions of illegal ,s millions of government employees that are making twice what many of the hard working people are making, and with all of the benefits.
Not to mention the people that are just too lazy to work.
And that is besides the government grants that add up to many millions every year year to the professional shysters in the arts and science, and education fields.
The Bible says in 2 Thessalonians 3 v 10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. ( this is speaking of the church of course )But who cares what the bible says any way?
Freedom and capitalism, or socialism and slavery you all decide.
Qoute
Quit feeding a pig and it will start rooting for itself. -
BrotherMouzone says:
Maybe we could try avoiding the welfare office, and just go on to the voting booth on election day, and vote for an American instead of a dam socialist.
Quit feeding a pig and it will start rooting for itself.So, ignore the will of the majority of the people and choose, instead, the will of Cliff.
We’re not quite sure what Cliff’s vision for America is but we know it involves getting rid of Obama and rooting hungry pigs.
But who cares what the bible says any way?
Finally, some words of sense…
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Odinius says:
Oigal said:
Ody…Don’t you just love this thread! It makes me smile every day..
We must make time and grab the best (and most bizarre) paragraphs posted here and put it as a seperate thread, we could call it Snapshot of America.
It’s like a daily vitamin!
We also have a new winner:
The Bible says in 2 Thessalonians 3 v 10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. ( this is speaking of the church of course )But who cares what the bible says any way
Well, I certainly do! Jesus, absolutely, was a dedicated capitalist and socialist-hater:
And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)
Jesus looking at him said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Luke 18:24-25)
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# BrotherMouzone Says:
May 20th, 2010 at 9:27 pmMaybe we could try avoiding the welfare office, and just go on to the voting booth on election day, and vote for an American instead of a dam socialist.
Quit feeding a pig and it will start rooting for itself.So, ignore the will of the majority of the people and choose, instead, the will of Cliff.
We’re not quite sure what Cliff’s vision for America is but we know it involves getting rid of Obama and rooting hungry pigs.
But who cares what the bible says any way?
Finally, some words of sense…
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Well you must be eating, so the only question is, are you rooting for yourself? -
Oigal says:
It is incontrovertible that both Nazi national socialism and Bolshevik communism are two shoots off the same branch.
Ross, as “Chief of the Reds under the Bed” knitting club, I know that you have a better understanding of the “intellectual” definitions of Socialism, Nazis and Communism are certainly not of the same branch. Whilst someone such as youself may debate that the end practical result is the same for the guy in the street, you cannot clump them to make a political point like bag of kids toys at the two dollar shop. You do yourself a deservice by aligning yourself with such nonsense. As an aside quoting Hilter (in or out of context) is always a very risky debating position to take, particularly when it comes to Russia/USSR and communism.
Now it may well be that OB has socialist leanings (as expected from that side of politics and last I checked not illegal) but he cannot be a NAZI and a Socialist and a communist all at the same time. Do you really think any of the wackers who throw out the “He’s a Nazi” could provide any sort of commentary on what Nazi party actually stood for in terms of economic, political manifesto. Invairably though, its coupled with someother mindless rant and with intellectual rigor induced by years of sucking on the hooch jug and watching B grade world war 2 movies we draw the obvious conclusion Nazi is evil ergo Obama is a Nazi.
As for the ongoing silliness of the “Birther” crowd, one has to wonder how many illegal immigrant forgeries people like Jay have really seen yet they throw this out as some sort of evidence support of their position. I mean it is just funny, I do wonder how they managed to forge a newspaper announcement all those years ago as well but facts and paraniod fanasties are strange bedfellows.
Of course, inherent and arrogant racism fairly drips through the birther camp anyway. It is a stupid and incoherent law from a bygone era anyway. The notion that being a natural born citizen makes one more loyal flies in the face of logic and history anyway (as you as a Britisher can surely attest, not like the UK has not had some fun with the odd lord n lady). As these people not just a little embarrassed a law that degrades, insults and belittles the thousands of immigrant citizens that have fought, died and sacrificed in the USA armed forces and elsewhere.
Anyway must away work to be done and confederate dollars to count.
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vote for an American instead of a dam socialist
Mutually exclusive?
Ah..so now having a different political view to Cliff means you are not American as well. Interesting concept. Perhaps he can enlighten us to what that actually means, apparently, so far:
1. Must be naturally born in American (which is kinda tough on all those children of Americans working overseas but hey..)
2. Can never be on welfare
3. Be able to root with pigs
4. Must be married
5. Dumb as a housebrick (assuming that no one is allowed to listen to “professional shysters” in the arts and science, and education fields)
6. Be able to mention “Thessalonians” in every day conversation
Did I miss anything?
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# Oigal Says:
May 21st, 2010 at 10:04 amIt is incontrovertible that both Nazi national socialism and Bolshevik communism are two shoots off the same branch.
Ross, as “Chief of the Reds under the Bed” knitting club, I know that you have a better understanding of the “intellectual” definitions of Socialism, Nazis and Communism are certainly not of the same branch. Whilst someone such as youself may debate that the end practical result is the same for the guy in the street, you cannot clump them to make a political point like bag of kids toys at the two dollar shop. You do yourself a deservice by aligning yourself with such nonsense. As an aside quoting Hilter (in or out of context) is always a very risky debating position to take, particularly when it comes to Russia/USSR and communism.
Now it may well be that OB has socialist leanings (as expected from that side of politics and last I checked not illegal) but he cannot be a NAZI and a Socialist and a communist all at the same time. Do you really think any of the wackers who throw out the “He’s a Nazi” could provide any sort of commentary on what Nazi party actually stood for in terms of economic, political manifesto. Invairably though, its coupled with someother mindless rant and with intellectual rigor induced by years of sucking on the hooch jug and watching B grade world war 2 movies we draw the obvious conclusion Nazi is evil ergo Obama is a Nazi.
As for the ongoing silliness of the “Birther” crowd, one has to wonder how many illegal immigrant forgeries people like Jay have really seen yet they throw this out as some sort of evidence support of their position. I mean it is just funny, I do wonder how they managed to forge a newspaper announcement all those years ago as well but facts and paraniod fanasties are strange bedfellows.
Of course, inherent and arrogant racism fairly drips through the birther camp anyway. It is a stupid and incoherent law from a bygone era anyway. The notion that being a natural born citizen makes one more loyal flies in the face of logic and history anyway (as you as a Britisher can surely attest, not like the UK has not had some fun with the odd lord n lady). As these people not just a little embarrassed a law that degrades, insults and belittles the thousands of immigrant citizens that have fought, died and sacrificed in the USA armed forces and elsewhere.
Anyway must away work to be done and confederate dollars to count.
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Seems to me its just like people bickering about if Satan and Lucifer are the same, makes no difference, its to the same end. -
Seems to me its just like people bickering about if Satan and Lucifer are the same
Well if you saying its all about scary stories and fairytales for kids and insecure grownups, I would have to agree Cliff.
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# Oigal Says:
May 21st, 2010 at 10:15 amvote for an American instead of a dam socialist
Mutually exclusive?
Ah..so now having a different political view to Cliff means you are not American as well. Interesting concept. Perhaps he can enlighten us to what that actually means, apparently, so far:
1. Must be naturally born in American (which is kinda tough on all those children of Americans working overseas but hey..)
2. Can never be on welfare
3. Be able to root with pigs
4. Must be married
5. Dumb as a housebrick (assuming that no one is allowed to listen to “professional shysters” in the arts and science, and education fields)
6. Be able to mention “Thessalonians” in every day conversation
Did I miss anything?
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You did not miss much, you just added a lot.Ah..so now having a different political view to Cliff means you are not American as well. Interesting concept. Perhaps he can enlighten us to what that actually means, apparently, so far:
===========The freedom of the American people is supposed to be protected from socialism by our constitution, freedom and socialism can not exist in the same place, that is why they finally set the slaves free. why would any one want to bring slavery back?
While the socialists do not allow people to own slaves, the government owns the people, its no different than slavery.
It is more than just my view, its in the law.
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1. Must be naturally born in American (which is kinda tough on all those children of Americans working overseas but hey..)a lie, where did i say that?
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2. Can never be on welfarea lie, where did i say that?
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3. Be able to root with pigsIf you are equating yourself with a pig, don,t blame some one else.
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4. Must be marriedanother lie
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5. Dumb as a housebrick (assuming that no one is allowed to listen to “professional shysters” in the arts and science, and education fields)well, i doubt if we have to worry about that in this case
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6. Be able to mention “Thessalonians” in every day conversationYou do not think the bible should be mentioned except on certain days?
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Did I miss anything?Yes, you did not mention how stupid i was for pointing out that the ten commandments
says that thou shall not steal.So i will just remind you that it also says thou shall not lie.
When you intentionally twist some one,s words , that is the same as a lie.
Maybe you have found your calling, you should do well in religion.
Have a great day, and don,t take no wooden coins.
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The Constitution has nothing to do with socialism, Cliff, it was written nearly 100 years before Das Kapital. It was written to safeguard against the tyranny of mercantilist European empires. You know, the thing that actually existed at that time.
But history lessons aside, America styles itself “the land of the free and home of the brave.” Do you want to live in that country, Cliff? Because the America you seem to want would not be free to elect a man whose politics differ from yours, and you’re clearly not brave enough to deal with democracy when it doesn’t go your way.
So you get the same answer I gave the moonbats on the left in 2004: suck it up and wait your turn, or leave.
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# Odinius Says:
May 21st, 2010 at 9:30 pmThe Constitution has nothing to do with socialism, Cliff, it was written nearly 100 years before Das Kapital. It was written to safeguard against the tyranny of mercantilist European empires. You know, the thing that actually existed at that time.
But history lessons aside, America styles itself “the land of the free and home of the brave.” Do you want to live in that country, Cliff? Because the America you seem to want would not be free to elect a man whose politics differ from yours, and you’re clearly not brave enough to deal with democracy when it doesn’t go your way.
So you get the same answer I gave the moonbats on the left in 2004: suck it up and wait your turn, or leave.
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There are only two kinds of Government, the first being a government that controls the people,and the other one is a government where the people controls the government, and in this case it is regulated by the constitution, which is based on the declaration of independence, which is based on the freedom that God gave us. the constitution has to do with every thing.So little it maters what a government is called, the point is that at this time the socialists have taken over this government, and if a rattle snake bites you doe,s it make you feel better if you call it by another name?
If i was a socialist i would just the last 30 or 40 years start loving America, but up until then if i was a socialist i would have gone to the soviet union or to Hitlers Germany, or some other place where i could starve to death and support the anti god rulers.
People have flocked here from other countries in droves to enjoy the freedom that this country offered and to get away from the dictators in the country they came from.
and now just to find that this country may be worse than the one they came from.They did not know that it had been taken over by socialism.
Now you can leave and don,t let the door of the customs office hit you in the butt, your passport has expired, bye now, and i sure love to here from you, but from your home land please.
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So glad this one is sticking around, as I haven’t had such a chuckle in years. You don’t have the slightest clue what’s in the Constitution, do you Cliffy boy? Because if you did, you’d show a little more respect for the country’s democratic process, and the rights of the people, represented by the majority of the electoral college, to choose a president of their, not your, liking.
Given that lack of respect, I think you’ve chosen the wrong country. Perhaps Iran would better suit your tastes? They’re all about god over there, hate communism and Obama, and routinely rig elections against liberals. You’d fit right in!
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If you believe in the democratic process then you should believe in the first amendment, maybe you know what i mean with out me having to draw you a picture.
And has your second grade teacher told you that this is a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy? probably figured you should already know.
Well if you are glad to have me around to tickle your funny bones, you are going to need to start making a little more sense,
If you want to tell me your good opinion of the president, that is fine,
If you want to tell me what is good about the welfare system that is ok.
Or what ever, as long as you can stick to a subject and make a little sense, instead of childish babling, because i m afraid you are going to wet your pants.
Other wise you will get ostisized
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I am glad you birthers are around to tickle my funny bone. This daily dose of buffoonery that puts a smile on my face with every new entry. So of course I’m doubly happy for the first amendment, which also allows me to point that out. 🙂
Oh, and by the way, notice I said democratic process. That is, after all, what regular, periodic elections are. You know, the things where the larger group of voters decides the outcomes and everyone agrees to be okay with it until the next one rolls around…
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if i was a socialist i would just the last 30 or 40 years start loving America, but up until then if i was a socialist i would have gone to the soviet union or to Hitlers Germany, or some other place where i could starve to death and support the anti god rulers.
Stop it Cliff my sides are hurting…
Now you can leave and don,t let the door of the customs office hit you in the butt, your passport has expired, bye now, and i sure love to here from you, but from your home land please.
Psst…you have to be elected before you can make the rules, its called democracy in action.
Ody, I agree with you, but I do wish he would keep the rib ticklers one to a post, difficult to manage all the gaffes at once.
While the socialists do not allow people to own slaves, the government owns the people, its no different than slavery.
Strange as it may seem, no socialist myself but the above is no definition of socialism.
By the way, ring wing wingnuts who refuse to accept the will of the people would slide in much closer to Nazi Germany than OB ever will. Some people need to do some basic reading on the definitions of political movements, may I suggest that the Billy Bob University should not be the first port of call.
They did not know that it had been taken over by socialism.
Do tell, what is the nation destroying piece of legislation you are refering to here?
Now as Ody said, if you don’t like what is happening then suck it up and vote next time.
And has your second grade teacher told you that this is a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy? probably figured you should already know.
Actually no, it may come as surprise but most of the world could not care less about domestic USA history. We just like to keep you around for laughs.
You do not think the bible should be mentioned except on certain days?
Well it would be a evolutionary start.. but seeing how we wish to mix religion, myth socialism and slavery together and as you say..
that is why they finally set the slaves free. why would any one want to bring slavery back?
How are you going with this one..
Exodus 21:5-6 reads “And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children: I will not go out free: (6) Then the master shall bring him unto the judges . . . and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.”
Never a good plan to quote the bible literally Cliff in defence of freedom, it will bite you on the arse every time.
Oh and on the nonsense that the USA Constitution was given by God and is somehow supposed to be a Christian document.
George Washington was president in 1796 he wrote “a treaty of peace and friendship” with Tripoli. That treaty reads “As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; it has, in itself, no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of the Musselmen (Muslims) … no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Of course, that leaves us with the difficult choice of choosing between the wingnuts (and glenn beck) and George Washington on the intent of the Constitution. A tough choice indeed.
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Odinius and Oiga twins
I hear muslems do not eat pig meat, is that right?
The Odinius and Oiga twins can even quote a little scripture, but like every thing else, it don,t have any thing to do with what any one said.
The Odinius and Oiga twins must believe in slavery, so i better beware of them.
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Nemo says:
This discussion is damn fun.
Anyways, maybe Obama is not a “natural born”, but bottom line, what does it matters? He was chosen as “legimately” as any other US president. Which is not much if you ask me, considering the people dont vote, the electors do, unlike in most of the world which is ruled by popular vote.
Anyways, Obama is continuing on the same paranoid war on muslims and support of israeli expansionism, and advancing over the citizens privacy and liberties. Intensification of Afghanistan occupation, more military budget, bank bailouts, etc.
So what has changed?
“The guy who does it” has a Nobel price and is half-black. But the rest is copy-pasted. They even have the same staff in most areas and both respond to wall street and the chicago boys, not mentioning the israeli lobby and military-industrial complex. -
🙂 Trouble is Cliff I very much doubt anyone has any idea what you are saying or trying to however never the less amusing.
I hear muslems do not eat pig meat, is that right?
Some one is going to have to help me out with this one???
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Which is not much if you ask me, considering the people dont vote, the electors do, unlike in most of the world which is ruled by popular vote.
Care to explain or expand on this one Nemo?
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# Oigal Says:
May 22nd, 2010 at 4:09 pm🙂 Trouble is Cliff I very much doubt anyone has any idea what you are saying or trying to however never the less amusing.
I hear muslems do not eat pig meat, is that right?
Some one is going to have to help me out with this one???
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Oigal, you seem to be educated, but did you run out of coma,s or what?And as to your comment, i was just using nonsense thinking you might understand that, since that is what you have been doing.
I did not go off to some dam college at some one else.s expense to get their brains burned dead by socialist propaganda.
When i got out of the ref i mean grade school i went to work, which is what every one should do if they are able bodied, instead of whinning for some one else to take care of them.
Yet i am sure you will accuse people like me of wanting to starve children, just because i believe able bodied people should work and try to take care of them selves. that seems to be your stupid mentality, college educated but stupid.
Sure i believe people should help people, even able bodied people needs help some times.
But there seems to be something about a stupid liberal mind that can not except the way some one has said something, they have to twist it around to where it means just the opposite of what was really said, then they have to add to it
Liberal philosophy, steal from people who work, to help others, the others are them selves. yeah they preach in giving, but the only thing they give is their opinion of how much some one else should give, and how much they should steal.
Freedom to them means the right to piss in front of old women.
Socialist philosophy, if you love something, set it free, but if it don,t return at a specified time and lick your feet, hunt it down and kill it.
Yes, if you want to know who the government tit sucking bunch are, all you have to do is to make a comment about some of the stupid things that go on in the welfare system and it will be plain to see some of them come out of the wood work.
You do not need to do any more than to just write the word, welfare or government tit sucker, and just see them rage , accusing you of all sorts of things.
And now my little liberal friend, that chose the 10% smart with a college education thinking it was better than just being 10% stupid.
You can write any kind of lie,s you want to about what i said as it won,t matter, i had better get off of this before i say something that would offend some one, and i just imagine people are getting tired of the nonsense regardless of which one of us it is coming from, sure am sorry if this causes some liberals to pee their pants.
Oh, by the way, capitalism seems to be a dirty word to most of you liberals, you call it the Capitalist system, but in fact it is not a system, it is just a normal process of free people ever since the cave men starting trading their clubs for spears that was made by some one else.
But i have a feeling that the dirty word in capitalism is WORK.
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Thanks, Cliff. Your latest round of howlers just caused me to spit coffee out on on my keyboard. Now I’ve got to clean it!
Oigal said:
Well it would be a evolutionary start.. but seeing how we wish to mix religion, myth socialism and slavery together and as you say..
Can we please add “myth constitution” to that? You know, the allegedly Christian document that says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Well, turns out the guy who wrote it, James Madison, had this to say about religion and the state:
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 – 73
Thomas Jefferson, of course, said:
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
and my favorite:
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
These were very smart people.
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Cliffy Cliffy Cliffy… the footy has just finished and I have time for a few laughs before bed so don’t go…
Sorry to disappoint but I left school at 15 (and home) and have worked ever since. I did however have to go back to night school a few times as I found I may need a bit of leg up if I didn’t want to shovel sh*t my whole life. None the less, I have never found a lack of schooling to be an excuse for stupid (and vice versa). Now nobody is denying anyone the right to be stupid but way too many people on this thread abuse that right.
Now not sure what you lastest rant is about? Any chance of short and concise?
Socialist philosophy, if you love something, set it free, but if it don,t return at a specified time and lick your feet, hunt it down and kill it.
Now would that be the Nazi Socialist? the Communist Socialist? The Muslim Socialist? the Obama Socialist?
Any chance of you answering any of the issues posed? Please don’t feel you have to, as your rants are gold in their own right.
Ross feel free to weigh in 🙂
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The most laughable part is the suggestion that “socialism” somehow says people shouldn’t work. The entire concept was based upon “the right to work,” and to work under what Marx argued were non-exploitative conditions.
Most actual socialist states took it a step further and compelled citizens to work. Unemployment was illegal.
Just goes to show that the people most likely to criticize something as “socialist” are the least likely to understand what the word means.
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Hans Gruber says:
Barrack Obama is a US citizen born in Hawaii, there is the birth certificate plus Doctors statements and pictures. Also if you look at the newspaper of that following week one can see the baby announcement ( Look it up online is the newspapers of the past -hawaii edition). To be president one has to be born in USA. To be a citizen one just needs one parent to be born in USA- even if born out of the country. John McCain was born in Panama but people thought it was Ok for him to be president Why? cause he was white, and a Republican, and cause he was born in the panama canal zone when it was under USA control and his father was a high ranking military officer. Has anyone seen web sites discussing McCains birth? But, because Obama is half black people say he was born somewhere else rather than Hawaii, but in reality he was born in USA.
He was never a Muslim since one has to practice Islam by volition to be a Muslim not just by some clerk writing it in a school role- so the kid can go to class.
So, the real question was is in Obamas’ heart. Well In Indonesian people kids were not great to him cause he was a foreigner and dark, Hawaiian’s thought he was a haoli (a white/black man with no Hawaiian blood), African Americans thought of him as black on the Outside and white in the inside. And now, idiots even think that he was not born in the USA- one person (here) even says that “his birth was witnessed by his half-sister” – a great trick since his sister (younger) was born after him! Yet this man, Barrack, chooses to run and win the Precidency, and in this position he tries to help and improve things -yet idiots still attack him ? why? cause he is a democrat? NO we have had other democrats and no one called them names and made cat-calls when they were making speeches. Wow, what would happen if a full Mexican American was president? yeah…., like they would let him! -
Aw Hans, you are ruining all the fun by being logical and concise..
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ET says:
@ the Oigal and Odinius twins
The Odinius and Oiga twins can even quote a little scripture, but like every thing else, it don,t have any thing to do with what any one said.
The Odinius and Oiga twins must believe in slavery, so i better beware of them.Hahaha, cliff got you by the balls. Anyone who is able to quote scripture should also be supposed to take it for granted. Why quote it if you don’t believe in it? Hahahaha.
We better beware of you slave-mongers.@ Odinius
Your Madison and Jefferson quotes are interesting but I wonder what they would have to say about ‘religions’ which aim at imposing their own laws to the nation, even abolish its constitution and replace it with some theocracy. Does Iran ring a bell? I wonder if Madison and Jefferson at the time were fully aware of the contents and objectives of the religions they guaranteed freedom of worship.
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Yeah, Cliff is a master of rhetoric and logic.
On Jefferson and Madison, I think that their views imply a very clear sense of the “proper” relation between religion and the state. Namely, that religion has no place in the state, and that this is worst where the state privileges one religion over others. But at the same time, that the state has no place in religion, and that this is worst where the state discriminates against some more than others.
They would not have liked the Islamic Republic of Iran for these reasons, and likely though it similar to Cromwell’s earlier and similar theocracy.
But they also would have taken issue with your notion that “religions” have “objectives.” The central tenet of deism, to which both subscribed, is that religion is fine and dandy provided it is deprived of the tools of tyranny. The central tenet of liberalism, to which they also both subscribed, is that the state is the ultimate source of tyranny, and the only possible way to mitigate this is legal individualism.
A good example of this can be found in their attitudes towards Calvinism (Cromwell’s religion). They both absolutely HATED Calvinism, and found it a particularly dangerous, theocratic and oppressive religion. But they supported the rights of Calvinists to worship freely.
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But they also would have taken issue with your notion that “religions” have “objectives.”
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I agree and thats what the first amendment is all about.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
But my notion that “religions” have “objectives.” I have no idea what you are talking about
as i do not like religion of any kind.I believe in God and his son, and i think some of the founders believed in the father and the son and some of them only believed in the father. their belief was their business, but all of them who signed the declaration of independence surly believed what they signed.
They believed in a divine power, you can call the power God or you can call it what you like. below is part of what they signed
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
As i said, i do not believe in religion, other people can believe what they want, they will get no b. s. from me as long as they do not try to stick my nose in it. the church can do what it wants as they are not using my money.
People can do what they want, if they want to dance, they can pay their own fiddler,
if they want to take dope , fine they can buy their own dope and their own needle.If they can live like a king, more power to them, but they can leave me the hell alone.
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Hi ET
No they don,t have me by anything, i just get tired of all of the mis quotes that they accuse you of, so you better watch them, as they are sly little fox,s.
And also i do still work for a living so i just ignore this a lot.
Have a great day.
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Oigal Says:
May 20th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Socialism was the father of The Naszi,s and the communists and it is the problem here.
Laugh… There is just so much intellectually wrong with that statement, impossible to start.
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Well, if there is so much wrong with it, why are you not saying what it is?
Are you so intelligent that, is it too much for you?
A lefty friend of mine said ( when he was born, he had been given two choice,s, he could choose between being 10 percent smart and go to college, or just be 10 percent stupid,
He said he sure did not want to be stupid, so….