What is Racism?
Sep 22nd, 2008, in Asides, by PatungI am getting tired of discussions constantly drifting into the areas we see below, cut from the effeminate men post.
I titled this post “What is Racism?” because, hmm, some stereotypes about different peoples are actually true, and in scientific terms a stereotype must be true, or else it isn’t a stereotype…But I don’t know if there is some formula that determines at what point the exceptions to the rule become so numerous that the stereotype breaks down and has to be abandoned.
I generally don’t like accusations of “racist” and “racism” being thrown around, they are substitutes for thought and argument, or they attempt to stop thought and argument, but I don’t think I’m alone in getting weary at some people constantly carping about Chinese or Anglos, or whoever…
This is the original bit by Purba Negoro which sparked the following off:
Indosiar is also Chinese owned. UNsurpisingly its’ content is facile, derivative, cheap and trite- outirght plagiarisms of better Western models and the lowest possible investment for highest possible profit-wan, aiya- exemplify fondly held Chinese values- the love of tinsel and trinkets.
Metro TV is owned by Pak Paulo. The quality of the station is far superior than profit-at-any-cost typical Chinese penny-dreadfuls. Just like their Tempo and Jakarta Post- self-serving or self-aggrandising pulp fictions.
306 Comments on “What is Racism?”
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dragonwall says:
When a person must speak, then he ought to know something other than getting people to listen to something that showed outright idiocy in speeches. It also reflects a person’s knowledge how idiotic he is trying to putdown others. Only Blokes who get crewed does that all the time. Trying to make his presence felt.
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Andy says:
Suryo, instead of attacking me like others have here how about being constructive and telling us why you think this problem occurs? exesivendre had a valid question and one which I answered from my observations of many years of experience in Indonesia. I’m guessing you yourself aren’t Indonesian although your name would suggest otherwise but your writing style sounds distinctly British am I right? Anyway please answer the questions from above mate. Play the man and not the ball…
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Sorry that is meant to be ‘play the ball and not the man’
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Suryo Perkoso says:
Well Andy, you need to stand back and see both sides – yes, the Chinese do have a rather voracious hunger for money, and yes, they do build empires that of course benefit non-chinese, but…… by god, some of these guys with a clapped out merc in front of the biggest house in the deso do think that this gives them some sort of right to treat people like crap, expats included if they think they can get away with it – the laughable thing is of course is that 99% of these guys have no chinese culture, they are javanese with slant eyes, nothing more – they cannot speak mandarin, they have no knowledge of the heritage, they just don’t want to be considered as Indonesian, it would be too much of a disappointment. There isa huge pressure also for such guys to be Christian, have white skin, and not dare to consider a mixed marriage.
I’ve had experience of it too on a personal level – I worked for a HITACHI for 2 years, nearly 12 years ago in Solo – it was not an experience I would wish to duplicate.
Maybe our brothers will find a bit more acceptance when they call themselves Indo-chinese, not chinese-Indonesian.
It’s a very complicated issue, but it’s far from a matter of simple racism.
@DW, I’m sorry mate, I’ve read some stuff that doesn’t make sense before, you you score a 9.7 out of 10 on the “talking like sooty” scale – I don’t know whether your bahasa indo is any better, but it may be worth a try – I can’t insult you if I can’t understand you.
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So you are saying you can insult me when you understand me!
Let us all understand you better.
Well Andy, you need to stand back and see both sides – yes, the Chinese do have a rather voracious hunger for money,
I am sure Andy had stood back and see both sides as well as front and back to speak out what he witness with his own eyes that you have never experienced. So is that the rightsof the Chinese? It certainly is? So what is your problem.
and yes, they do build empires that of course benefit non-chinese, but…… by god, some of these guys with a clapped out merc in front of the biggest house in the deso do think that this gives them some sort of right to treat people like crap,
Can you come up with some sort of example so that the Chinese understand you Brits better! And also what kind of crap is that. There are instance that are remote cases but on the majority they were not like what you said.
expats included if they think they can get away with it –
Right and that includes you, right! Do you have an Indonesian citizenship? I bet you don’t even have a piece of paper except your half past six MI5 blokes.
the laughable thing is of course is that 99% of these guys have no chinese culture,
Except the Cna Benteng most of them still possess their culture so that you know. Even some Cina Benteng do, until this day, carry on their Chinese culture.
they are javanese with slant eyes, nothing more – they cannot speak mandarin,
So they are clant eye javanese. To be able to speak Javanese does not mean that they are javanese. Only people like you want to consider them to be one.
they have no knowledge of the heritage, they just don’t want to be considered as Indonesian,
Are you speaking from your arse, farting! Whether they choose to be Chinese or Indonesian Chinese it is their perogative rights. Their very right to be one. Not for you to say or decide. You might just need to consider what they contribute to Indonesian and the society is far beyond your imagination. Many of them left this country as an unsung hero. What are you. You must be real good in blow job.
disappointment.
The CHinese dissapoint you! Did they owe you a living? So what have you to be dissapointed about?
There is a huge pressure also for such guys to be Christian, have white skin, and not dare to consider a mixed marriage.
So you are not Christian. Ah I forget you live in this country for the past 12 years sucking Indonesian breast and considered yourself a convert!
I’ve had experience of it too on a personal level – I worked for a HITACHI for 2 years, nearly 12 years ago in Solo – it was not an experience I would wish to duplicate.
I think I know the reason why. You were here working for a Hitachi for 2 years and very likely you bluff your way in for the job because you looked bule and they think that you were good a certain thing but it turned out that you you were nothing but a fake therefore you were treated miserably. And one think there won’t be any duplicate because those who knows you will know that you belong to the very unfit.
Maybe the marriage you had with an Indonesia girl were nothing than the ignorant girl fall into the trap so that you could pretend to be a Muslim.Maybe our brothers will find a bit more acceptance when they call themselves Indo-chinese, not chinese-Indonesian.
So now you are trying to brother others! You brothers Chinese or Muslim, Papuan or Irian? Go home and big brother your MI5 MI6 and HMS.
It’s a very complicated issue, but it’s far from a matter of simple racism.
How compicated were they and howis it more than simple racism.
Do you know? Tell us. Then either we give you a big clap or a big slap.@DW, I’m sorry mate, I’ve read some stuff that doesn’t make sense before, you you score a 9.7 out of 10 on the “talking like sooty” scale – I don’t know whether your bahasa indo is any better, but it may be worth a try – I can’t insult you if I can’t understand you.
When you said this, please take a mirror and look yourself and tell us what you looked like and are those that you said constitute part of your idiotic speeches!
And you say you Indonesian is great! Know what is this @/\@? The Indonesians called it pedil.
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Suryo, I can understand what you’re saying but try and understand the cultural situation. When you say they are javanese with slanty eyes well of course. The Chinese have been in Indonesia for 100s of years. If they hadn’t absorbed the local culture there would be something seriously wrong wouldn’t there. Now why don’t they speak Mandarin. I know many Chinese Indos who wish to learn but as you know during the New Order, they were forced to not speak their language or celebrate their heritage. Chinese New Year was banned during this time. On the issue of acceptance, do you think it is high time to allow them to have the same legal status as the rest? Can they drop this pribumi, non pribumi nonsense? Then and only then can they truly consider themselves Indo chinese rather than Chinese indo.
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What are you talking about Andy…. I thought this “pribumi, non-pribumi” non-sense has been abolished back in the 1998 (by Gus Dur). Well, we still has to keep an eye on the arabs, though (the likes of Brisik Siah, and Abu Bakar Basi).
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Simplyjozz says:
I have a question. Why are you using English in this blog (and the overwhelming comments as well)? To show the world about the conflicts in our country and how un-united we are?
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Simplyjozz, what are you talking about? This is an English language website. Anyway whatever language we use, with the internet and world news going 24/7 the truth about Indonesia is there for the world to see. It is up to all to make their judgement.
Diego, prove to me this has happened…pribumi, non pribumi status remains and the chinese didn’t tell me this but my javanese friends. Can anyone imagine the uproar if countries like mine (in the civilised world) gave a different status to their immigrants? Could never happen.
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Fiore says:
Diego,,
What I believe is that these problem was never solved. abolished? you sure? Chinese are humans too, they feel pain and grudge from the past, no body can solve anything and these feeling of pain and grudge are nurtured into the youths minds. and you think 1 man can “Abolished” it? -
People really think the the whole Indoesian community behaves like what he says.
After the stupid Blow Job Habibie who took over from Suharto as an interim president he took the very first opportunity to bash the Chinese Indonesians. Someone then had to sweep his trash and apologize for the fumble according to them when Habibie made is opening speech.
Abdulrahman Wahid abolish several red tapes by lifting bans and on Chinese writings and Chinese New Year. Discriminations was supposed, i mean supposed, to be abolish but the first thing that happened was Yusril Ihza Mahendra immediately made some changes, in
1. The immigration department – to further helped one of his department to engage
in further corruption.
2. Made some changes in the law that further discriminate and further segregate the
Chinese if not to disrupt the whole Indonesian economy that disallowed the Chinese
Indonesian from making complaint to the court of law, writing a check. In fact the
law that was supposed to be amended was not and that gives the Indonesian
Government the full power to discriminate the Chinese in Indonesia.
3. He the drafted the Sharia Law and shafted down the throat of DPR MPR who received
that with much protest from member of the parliament. But after a while those
memebrs wuiten down as news was making report that they were receiving bribes.
Not long after the law was passed.
Agung Laksono said he was making a check if there were such things that happened
in parliament but there were no follow up. Apparently he must also have receive on
of those envelopes.Then there was this incident in Kalimantan when a young girl who wanted to enter East Malaysia and had her passport made but was told that she still needs a SBKRI.
It was widely report but what happened or what action was taken by the Indonesian Government on the Immigration Officers who was involved.Then there was this when the governor who was also involved when the Chinese who were about to celebrate Chinese New Year had erected a patung naga but was told to tear that down by those stupid islamic kafir.
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This is an English language website. Anyway whatever language we use, with the internet and world news going 24/7 the truth about Indonesia is there for the world to see. It is up to all to make their judgement.
Andy, you’re right. Even i knew this website from googling “Racism in Indonesia”. Thank you for the answer.
I just thought that the people’s comments here are too harsh. Thanks to Purba Negoro for triggering all of these.
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Simplyjozz, i’m Australian but don’t have a problem with Purba. At least he speas from his heart and isn’t afraid to tell it like he thinks it is. I actually wish other Indonesians were like him. If that was the case it would be a mere case of choosing who are our friends or enemies. But sometimes a trip to Indonesia is like a poker game. A case of he / she is smiling and talking nice but I need to know their angle.
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While you are here Simplyjozz, i’m curious as to what your opinion is on the issues at hand. Where do you stand on the issues of Chinese citizens, Papua and Timor Leste and the previous occupation? Don’t be afraid, i’ll appreciate if you are honest really….and we don’t know who you really are so it doesn’t matter what you say.
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Rob says:
@ Andy…
Except that Purba (AKA PN) was not Indonesian.
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Rob, cmon how do you know? Until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt we have to assume he is. And what about AAB and Cukurungan? Where are they from?
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@ Andy…
Perhaps Patung can provide some insight on this. As far as I recall, AAB and the Cuk-meister are Indonesians and PN is not.
On the beyond all reasonable doubt front, nope cannot prove it. As far as I know, I have never met the man, so it is what it is.
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timdog says:
I long ago suggested that dear old PN was British – or at the very least British schooled – on the basis of his syntax, style and vocabulary. According to Pak Patung, that’s exactly what he was; I think the evidence was pretty solid.
As for AAB, he was presumed Indonesian, but, if I’m not mistaken, fled never to be seen again after Lairedion called his Indonesianess into question. Are there any real Indonesians here?
I think I recall that Misterrr Andy originally asumed that I too was part of the terrifying dark-eyed-and-demonic “Indonesian horde”, on the grounds that I had said something remotely positive about the country… -
hary says:
IMHO, the average Chinese Indonesians have a siege mentality.
Despite the reforms, most view pribumis as stupid, and cows to be taken advantage of. They feel that every pribumi merely wants to take their wealth away.
No wonder the average pribumi see local Chinese as snobbish and aloof. The Chinese must realise that our fates and fortunes are entwined.This is part of a wider problem of racial stratification. The Chinese stay in their own Christian schools, go to Catholic Universities, and have mainly Chinese friends. No wonder that their experience with pribumis are largely through their pembantus.
The resulting suspicions and attitudes are dangerous.This situation is not helped by equally narrow minded pribumis. I am always perplexed to read about the “chinese indonesian ” being a commie. Seriously, my Chinese friends can recite Pancasila with the best of them and believe it too. They are born here, live next to us, and have shared the same experiences as pribumis.
What we need is a programme of tolerance , and eventually acceptance. Highlight our similiarities, rather than our differences. Dialogues and openess are a good start. Don’t leave it to the religious groups. G-d is too big for one religion. Start it in the schools. Start in the Universities.
America took 400 years to achieve a measure of racial parity, and they are still grappling with their racism. Singapore had 40 years of forced integration, and has had a mild degree of success. Yugoslavia’s racism exploded after only 50 years.
I don’t think the Chinese will be integrated in my lifetime, but to do nothing is worse.
Pak Hary saking Solo
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Honestly, IMO PN at least offered some intelligent opinions and tried to back up what he said even if he was a bit of a shitstirrer. I enjoyed his posts and the boards here haven’t been the same since he’s been gone. On the other hand AAB and Cukky only hurl abuse and defamatory comments towards anyone who is not from their racial and religious group. So in a way although PN wasn’t really Indonesian (and I still wonder what his motive was) he didn’t soil Indonesia’s reputation as much as the other two have.
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Are there any real Indonesians here?
The all time top commenters, the bolded ones are Indonesian, pretty sure, although many of them have spent long, long time abroad or left altogether.
* Aluang anak Bayang (1527)
* Achmad Sudarsono (1500)
* Janma (1042)
* Lairedion (1010)
* Cukurungan (968)
* Dragonwall (958)
* Mohammed Khafi (935)
* Oigal (912)
* Tomaculum (912)
* Purba Negoro (807)
* Ihaknt (790)
* Hassan (766)
* Dewaratugedeanom (761)
* Patung (737)
* Odinius (727)
* Rob (704)
* Dimp (659)
* Sputjam (614)
* Andrew (574)
* Andy (521)
* diego (504)
* timdog (480)
* 1ndra (478)
* schmerly (462)
* ET (458)
* Farah (436)
* Ross (413)
* iamisaid (396)
* Patrick (347)
* fullmoonflower (328)
* kinch (293)
* Raden (278)
* Shloka (271)
* Molisan Tono (265)
* Suryo Perkoso (263)
* Julita (255)
* Bas (245)
* Sylvester (240)
* Robert (233)
* Burung Koel (227)
* Rockstar (221)
* Bradlymail (219)
* Rambutan (210)
* Pakmantri (210)
* Parvita (204)
* Peter (198)
* Fanglong (185)
* Enigmatic (184)
* Miss Indo 07 (179)
* Arema (171)Slightly depressing looking at lists like these as I wonder where half of them have gone, but that’s the way it is with internet forums I guess, I miss PN a bit, he could be very funny and he contributed a lot, but he’s just a nutjob and not everyone can stand the ‘robust’ stuff.
Hary makes some interesting points…..
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Lairedion says:
I’m back, P.
I believe PN’s finest moment was when he had Andy call a Melbourne hotel to see if he had checked in.
In general, many people have lots of interesting stuff to say, even if I totally disagree with it but, to me, it becomes utterly worthless the moment if they’re exposed as frauds.
Nice to see this list although I think AAB is also non-Indonesian. Why else would he walk away so suddenly after a couple of innocent remarks? Anyway, he’s gone so it’s not relevant anymore. The rest of the list, cannot argue with that.
Personally I miss “numpty” schmerly and I wish Pakmantri could contribute more often as I hold his comments in high regard. 🙂
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Arie Brand says:
I do wonder though why virtually nobody here uses his or her full name.
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Wish AAB be back here again…, for a slapfest on some noisy ranters.
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Hi L, I deliberately didn;t bold your name as I was trying to provoke you…didn’t quite work hmmm, or did it.
Arie, might be my fault, I set the example with a fake name, others follow, in the early days the site was much more ‘editorially’ on the edge vis a vis religion stuff so I think I had good reason to use a fake name but these days I’m less concerned about it so……
Diego, AAB could be pretty funny too, I always loved it when some stray Indian wandered on to the site and AAB started asking for curry recipes, classic stuff, but he was also a nutjob in his own way.
L, yeah I might be wrong about AAB, possible, but I still think he’s indonesian.
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Oh, and Schmerly, he logged in a while back, sent him a message, he said he’d had a car accident recently and would be back soonish.
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Yes, and now we are at it, I might be a simple soul in these matters but why some people here pretend to be Indonesian when they are not is beyond me.
But to get back to the topic: I would like to comment on what, for want of a better word, I will call ‘internal racism’, that is the racism directed to one’s own ethnic group. When there is a new birth (they are frequent!) in my Visayan extended family we are informed first about the shape of his or her nose. Later we get comments on skin colour and, much later, on height. In short: dark, broad nosed and short is bad.
This has been particularly conspicuous to me in the Philippines where I have learned to translate the term ‘pleasing personality’ in recruitment advertisements as: at least above 5 ft 2 and preferably 5ft 4. a ‘Western’ nose and skin colour to match. If the person asked for is female she should, of course, also have the appropriate curves.
I am myself rather partial to the modest Asian nose and being more or less accustomed to it I now- find, for instance, close ups of an amorous exchange between two orang barat, with those two big noses coming in between, fairly ridiculous. I mean I can hardly believe that the Filipino penchant for these things is based on universal aesthetic criteria.
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ET says:
timdog said
I long ago suggested that dear old PN was British – or at the very least British schooled – on the basis of his syntax, style and vocabulary.
I still do believe that he is Indonesian because he has too much inside information for a non-Indonesian, albeit sometimes incorrect. But he certainly had a western education, maybe even British, judging from his style. He once admitted here that he was educated by the Jesuits.
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Sorry something missing and needs to be clarified. When I refer to DoOs I meant he was also like you a kid in school and quite ignorant like you.
Fortunate he did not face any putdowns and insults because his topics were mainly on economics.
I did not meant that he was place here intentionally to putdown and insults others.