Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Andy says:
Patrick, first of all I want to say how much I respect you here even I don’t agree with you. See you and I can have a debate and disagree with each other without personal abuse and insluts hurled in my direction. Well this seems to be the only weapon my other adversaries appear able to use as they simply can’t debate in a gentlemanly way.
Now getting the niceities out of the way, yes I am from Australia which is supposedly following Judeo Christian ways (according to our former Prime Minister). But around 20 percent of our people listed on the census as having no religion. This was about 1% 100 years ago. Assuming then there are roughly 70 % christians (allowing 10% for muslims, hindus, and other religions) did you know of that percentage less than 7% attend church regularly? I don’t believe our society is unravelling or going out of control. We are still a democratic free society where the vast majority follow the rule of law. I see it as an insult to suggest we aren’t mature enough to live our lives without a book, symbols and a house of worship advising us of our evil ways. I think we are grown up enough to know what is right or wrong. My parents are agnostic and although I attended church when I was very young my family have not even discussed religion amongst each other for years.
Now your own society the USA I believe is the most christian of all western countries yet has the highest per capita crime rate of all of them particularly homicides. Can you explain this? All the worshipping in the world hasn’t saved them now has it? I am always amused to see guys on death row on tv telling the world how they love God.
So as you can see evil people can believe in God and good ones can follow their own road. It is up to the individual which way he / she wants to go, not what their belief is.
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Oigal says:
Frustrated Patrick..who me? Nagh..how could anyone be frustrated with the creationists and religious fundies as they are an endless source amusement (although one should never forget historically they are also the source of untold misery as well).
As for facts its hard to compete with such howlers from you as
For example it causes the atheist to justify abortion as the right of a woman to be in command of her own body and at all times.
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Although to be fair you do provide a much needed reminder that Religious Fanatics are not restricted to any one religion and all should be treated with same degree of care you would a rabid family pet.
Anyway, time for another chuckle, off to read another creationist book (always good for laugh particulary when they get to the age of the earth bit).
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Patrick says:
@Oigal – Something morbid and pathetic about an individual who can “howl” at abortion which is the execution of innocent fetuses, or the twisted moral support of its implementation, by hip, modern, chic, progressive thinking, liberal atheist like yourself. My your mummy and daddy must be so proud or do you think they wished they had……. Just a thought since you deem so funny : > )
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@ Andy – Australia right now is very proseperous so people tend to forget about religion and crime rates rates generally are lower in times of prosperity. I remember hearing a guy named Conway speaking about the lack of religious commitment in Australia. He said that the number 1 reason people in Australia gave for not practicing religion is that “it got in the way of their fun”. (Gila Aussies! ha ha ha)Unfortunately, a decline in religion in Australia has led to a decline in trust that citizens had for each other, declines in the confidence of the legal system, banks and Government. (See Australian Values Survey). What else can I say about a country where “Witchcraft” is among the fastest growing religions?.
P.s., Andy you are always a gentleman so it is a pleasure to discuss topic with you. I will try to answer your other questions tomorrow as I am super busy today. Thanks!
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Oh Pat, Pat, Pat such a nasty streak for a religious gentleman (using the term in its broadest sense of course). However, not uncommon once we strip away the hypocrisy and the “holier than thou” covering of any fundamentalist, invariably we find the seething, rabid rage of the insecure and socially inept.
It’s you that is funny. Really! Your earlier statement deserves the title of Crown Prince in the Royal Family of Stupid with yourself as the virgin hand maiden. Just because people doesn’t happen to believe in your particular fairytale as a life prop does not mean they support abortion or any other particular position. It really is such a sad straw man point and just highlights your inability to connect with the reality that you cannot box a group of people into little fetid cells that exist only in your imagination. Just to help you out as it has been 12 hours or so, here’s repeat in case the self flagellation has created some short term memory loss.
how could anyone be frustrated with the creationists and religious fundies as they are an endless source amusement
Was made response to your simply bizarre statement (a gem amongst pearls of stupid)
For example it causes the atheist to justify abortion as the right of a woman to be in command of her own body and at all times.
Truly, only a person with limited grasp of reality and particularly weak argument could attribute “the atheist” as “a position” on any particular issue let alone abortion other than disbelief in fairy tales. There are more versions of atheists than there are versions of religions and that is saying something.
Most rational (Ok stretching the point in a Fundies case) people would be able to draw the distinction between finding you, your twisted use of “facts” and general outrage amusing and the actual act of abortion. I have to admit “damn that was leap of faith even for you”. Unless, of course we are using the term as arather gruesome metaphor for the fundies of this world.
Mommy and Daddy?? Do really want to go into the parent slur territory? Happy to play but it is rather apparent you are rather a thin skinned individual and it would not be fair to you to talk about people wading about in the shallow end of the gene pool.
Yea, I know I shouldn’t tease the ants with the magnifying glass…but seriously Pat you are an amusing piece of humanity.I did feel a bit sad when you said
Just a thought
as surely that thing is doomed to die of loneliness
Now Pat, me ol son, none of the above should be taken as an attack on religion as such, personally I couldn’t less if you believed in the great hooded tea pot however if you insist upon attacking others attributting positions, thoughts and actions that are purely the product of a fertile albiet ugly imagination then my friend you as they say “fair game”
hip, modern, chic, progressive thinking, liberal atheist like yourself.
Oh and Bugger I am back to being a leftie again 🙂Oh and thanks for the chuckles.
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declines in the confidence of the legal system, banks and Government.
Pat, please tell us you are not an Yank advising Australia about its banking and legal systems?
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@Oigal – As Andy says, if you have no worthwhile argument you regress into pathetic personal attacks. However, I am not offended but thrilled that you take the time to read my statements here on this thread as they do seem to bring out the extraordinary passion (however misplaced) that you have for me.
The subject of abortion is used here primarily as an example of mankind placing its version of morality above God’s. Its a very clear example of the compass spinning out of control and even you, an avowed atheist, should understand that point very well indeed. : > )
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Well Patrick, I didn’t necessarily mean oigs personally, there are many of all races, colors and creeds here who have hit a few low blows, just look at the Barry Soetoro thread. But this is one forum where the Indonesians win hands down. Cuky, PN and AAB are the greatest sledgers i’ve ever read. And the most defamatory. timdog has nothing on those cretins.
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Ah Patrick..Back again slow day at the witch burnings?
Abortion is indeed a topic that would and should cause much passion and angst…however your sad attempt to link all those who don’t following your mythical version of worship as it should be as supporters of abortion remains absurb.
Speaking of creation…nagh..dont!
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@ Oigal -Actually, I didn’t link abortion exclusively to atheist as that would be utter nonsense. What I am linking abortion to is man’s desire to rationalize abortion as a choice (sound familiar Mr. Atheist?). The moral argument of the religious right has been successfully diminished and in many cases eliminated by the pro-abortion movement. You see if abortion is legalized then it cannot be classified as murder or homicide. This twisted logic has other implications as well. In a recent incident at Fort Hood, where an act of terror was committed, many newspapers reported 13 lives were lost. However, most newspapers forgot to mention a 14th life was also lost as one of the victims was pregnant with a baby that she intended to bring to full term. The fear here by the liberal news reporters is that you don’t want to mention that a fetus was murdered lest the readers logically conclude, if that is true, then abortion must be also classified the same. The pro-abortion lobby have done their utmost to protect that choice with all sorts of legislation and legal rulings as if this was something more desirable than the protection of an innocent fetus. In some countries, like here in the “religious” USA, it is exclusively the right of the woman to have an abortion or not? The husband or boyfriend and sometimes parents of underage girls, have few rights in these matters, if at all, and they are often not even subject to know that their child (grandchild) was aborted. Privacy acts written to protect the patient are used to justify these actions. What they don’t tell you is that it is really just a convenient remedy to make abortion on demand easier as only the woman having the abortion can make the decision. The logic being less decision makers = more abortions. How sad! Pro-choice has not empowered woman but successfully enslaved them into thinking that taking the life of their own child is a legitimate decision protected by a faceless society and that God’s morality and laws are to be ignored as something from the distant past.
Oigal you mentioned Creation – to know it requires wisdom and you must agree that you are somewhat lacking in that department so you are so right when you imply that you shouldn’t dare go there. : > )
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ET says:
@ Patrick
Interesting post to which I can fully subscribe albeit it even from a non-religious standpoint. I understand your moral outrage – especially when it relates to the lack of rights of others directly involved in the bringing about and bringing to term of the pregnancy, a hard fought for ‘accomplishment’ of the feminist movement – but I think you make a mistake by linking automatically atheists and agnosticists with pro-choice supporters. I admit that it is the religious right who is the most outspoken in this matter but by excluding all other world views you alienate possible allies in your struggle.
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Oigal -Actually, I didn’t link abortion exclusively to atheist as that would be utter nonsense.
Therefore, in the mind of the atheist all action to support the rights of the mother are upheld and at the full expense of the unborn.
….
Oigal you mentioned Creation – to know it requires wisdom
You said it Patrick..utter nonsense indeed.
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@ET you and Oigal completely missed the point I was attempting to make and that the current defence of abortion is that it is a “choice” and that choice is based upon the misguided principle that men can decide what is morally wrong or right in society and without the interference of God or thesist promoting “God” values. By the way, this is the very same argument brought to us when men deny the existence of God.
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good”. Psalm 14:1
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Janma says:
You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. “I believe God created me in one day” Yeah, looks like He rushed it.”
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@Jamma – don’t worry God still loves you despite your many and obvious flaws.
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@ET – You raise an interesting point about the possibility of alienating “atheist” in the struggle to end abortion. It made me ask myself “what if I was an atheist? What would be my thoughts on this subject and what if anything could I or would I do about it” ? Allow me to play the “devil’s advocate” here and lets look at the situation logically. As an atheist I am probably all caught up in the “THEORY of Evolution” first brought forth by Charles Darwin. This means “survival of the fittest” and as an atheist, if I look at the animal kingdom, that means my survival is paramount to any other person’s survival. If we look at lion’s for instance this would mean every few years a different male lion takes over the pride. The take-over usually involves chasing away or killing the de-throned male and the seeking out any and all cubs to be brutally killed. The females may put up some initial resistance but they quickly realize they are no match for the size and power of the new male so in order to survive they step aside while the male kills the young. If I apply this same logic to human beings why would I care if someone wants to abort their baby? Can I care morally? If yes, whose morals apply? If being an atheist means being free from any supernatural power than am I not my own morality base? If that is correct than how can we run a society of like minded individuals if each person decides alone his own morality? We have can make a government ? But what kind of government? Unfortunately, the only examples we have of pure atheistic governments have been totalarian societies where human rights were often viciously imposed upon. OK, so maybe you will argue that those atheist societies were communist and that your not a communist atheist. Perhaps we can look at secular governments for inspiration? This problem we will encounter again is that almost all, if not all, secular societies have been influenced to a great degree by codes of morality and laws based on the belief of a super-natural power. Still lets press on. Say we are able to elect a democratic government for our purely atheist country. We create our laws based on what our society voted for at the time so we can proudly say majority rules. Today, we are happy because the laws seem so civilized. Murder and robbery are crimes as well as rape an incest. Pedophiles are kept at bay with the threat of prison. But suppose a group of people eventually emerges that says being a pedophile is ok. Another group emerges that says as Darwinist they believe that stealing from others is survival of the fittest. As they gain strength they start to erode the current laws on the books. Suddenly, for the first time in your happy life you feel threatened. Now your family is at great risk of harm. Who can you turn to as more and more of your fellow atheist start to change their morality? What happens when these people become a majority in this purely atheistic society? The answer is they take over the government, change the laws as they see “fit”. You may counter, how can that happen because all the atheist I know are decent human beings? It can happen because there is no “moral compass” in a purely atheistic society. Morality can change at any time and by anyone, after all, if there is no God to judge us then who must I answer to and that answer is only myself.
Atheism put simply, is a purely selfish action, by an individual or group of individuals to deny the existence of a higher power, who brings order to our Universe and serves as an unwavering moral compass as we decide in our societies what is tolerable and intolerable.
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Fawzia says:
@Patrick,
Doesn’t the Bible itself teach a bizarre abortion procedure? This is from the Bible Numbers(I got it from a Skeptics site):
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying … If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner; Numbers 5:11-13
The first thing to notice is the context. This procedure is only intended for married couples, specifically for any man that suspects that his wife has been messing around. No proof is necessary; suspicion alone is sufficient to God.
Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon … And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water … And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD … and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse…. (5:15-18)
And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. 5:19-22
What does it mean to have your belly swell and your thigh rot? But the footnote in the NIV that said it meant this: “cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb.”
So if the woman is guilty (had sex with someone besides her husband), then the bitter water will make her unable to have children in the future. And if she is pregnant at the time, it will abort the pregnancy.
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled; Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law. Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.5:27-31
So the Bible following Christians shouldn’t really be having abortions in the way they do now:
There should be substantial changes, to make it suitable for the Bible. As you said:
The husband… have few rights in these matters and they are often not even subject to know that their child… was aborted. How sad! Pro-choice has not empowered woman but successfully enslaved them into thinking that taking the life of their own child is a legitimate decision… that God’s morality and laws are to be ignored as something from the distant past.
So what should be done is that
1) As the Bible says, priests not Doctors should be the ones performing abortions.
2)The procedures shouln’t be sophisticated ones, rather they should be poisonous stuff added into mud water, containing ingredients which can destroy the woman’s health for life!
3)Far from the husband having no rights, he should be the sole decision maker in these circumstances, if he suspects that his wife’s cheating, then the poor wife should be allowed no choice in the matter, but taken to a priest straightaway & have her abort any fetus she’s carrying, with disastrous consequences for her health!
It would then meet God’s instructions, & His morality & laws would be upheld right? 😉
FYI, not all Christians\Jews\Muslims etc are pro lifers, nor are all non believers pro choicers!
Here’s an atheist & agnostic pro life site. And these non believing pro lifers don’t even have to explain away God’s mud water abortion procedure! 🙂
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BrotherMouzone says:
As an atheist I am probably all caught up in the “THEORY of Evolution” first brought forth by Charles Darwin. This means “survival of the fittest” and as an atheist, if I look at the animal kingdom, that means my survival is paramount to any other person’s survival.
@ Patrick, you are stretching the boundaries of “logically” here, old bean. But in the spirit of stringing together a random set of assumptions and prejudices into a spiral of ever-more deranged guff, let me have a pop;
“As a theist, I am probably caught up in the THEORY that “Jesus is Magic”. I believe that because I know that Jesus is magic and tell him how magic he is every Sunday I have a free pass to heaven.
I have never had a womb or an unwanted pregnancy that could potentially ruin my hopes and dreams. Therefore, it’s really easy for me to act as judge, jury, and executioner for all of those women who are in that unfortunate position.”
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Honestly Patrick, the nonsense you spout is simply awe inspiring in its false constructs, litany of shoddy straw man (Look it up)arguments and simply unbelievable arrogance of the self righteous.
Now we have atheists running around killing the young?
Unfortunately, the only examples we have of pure atheistic governments have been totalarian societies where human rights were often viciously imposed upon.
As opposed to those Theocracies both past and present that stand as shining beacons to human rights. Do you really need them listed? How about Iran or is that the wrong kind of Theocracy? Spanish Inquisition perhaps? Do tell where/when was theocracy is/was we can all believe in.
It can happen because there is no “moral compass” in a purely atheistic society. Morality can change at any time and by anyone
As opposed to religion that never changes? How are the witch trials going anyway? It would help if you could identify which of the umpteen versions of religious morality is correct though to save us from our confusion. Multiple wives, age of consent, sacrifice, rights of women, marriage of the clergy all seem fairly changeable depending on which version of the myth you wish to subscribe to. Surely your next logical step is to enlighten us all is to advise us all on which version is the one and only unchangeable laws we must obey in your brave new world.
As for evolution so in your world just a myth created by those evil atheists hey?
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@Oigal – I believe its still known as the “Theory of Evolution” and as far as your regular empirical arguments are concerned, even well known atheist admit, that it is an argument with limitations and therefore too weak in refuting the existence of God. Your argument involving Theocracies and using Iran and the Inquisition means what exactly? Are you saying that if a persons believes in God, he therefore, subscribes to a Theoracy? Ha ha ha! Another ridiculous assumption from you. Did not Jesus himself say “render to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s”. Most God fearing people around the world do not one one religion dominating their government but do expect a point of reference that involves God’s teachings.
So perhaps you should try reading a book or two that may enlighten that shredded cheese brain of yours so that we can perhaps have a discussion here from you that can carry some intelligent design to it? : >)
Interesting that there were 3 comments , concerning my last post, from different people and all supporters of atheism. However, none successfully defended atheism or demonstrated anything worthwhile about atheism. It was the usual attack the theist and to hell (excuse the pun) with making any worthwhile arguments to convince people of the merits of atheism.
@ Fazwia – I think your interpetation of Numbers is interesting and different than mine would be. The point of the passage is to show how adultry would be dealt with when involving a woman during the time of the Exodus. The Bible says they were a “stiff necked” people an quite rebellious against Moses who was their appointed leader. They were stiff necked despite witnessing many miracles including plagues against their Eygptian captors, the parting of the Red Sea, and manna (heavenly food) sent to them daily from the sky. The 40 year wandering the desert was to make them a people worthy of the Promised Land.
@Bro Mouzone – Your point is what exactly? That God believers don’t have compassion for women who get in trouble or the babies they carry? Please, they offer many free services including adoption, job placement, counselling, homecare, housing etc. as a viable options to help woman with these dilemnas. Enlighten me to exactly what atheist are doing to help women who find themselves in a difficult situation?
@ Oigal – you say “Surely your next logical step is to enlighten us all is to advise us all on which version is the one and only unchangeable laws we must obey in your brave new world. ” Ok I can say that the very first commandment should always be followed “And God spoke all these words, saying:
ONE: ”I am the LORD your God, You shall have no other gods before Me.
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”I am the LORD your God, You shall have no other gods before Me.
Thats great, Patrock now, which of the the books of his (?) word. Lets try not to fudge ok, Old, New, Koran…come one me ol son..Stand and Deliver.
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I believe its still known as the “Theory of Evolution” and as far as your regular empirical arguments are concerned, even well known atheist admit, that it is an argument with limitations and therefore too weak in refuting the existence of God.
Patrick, Refuting the existence of God, I would no more do that than try and refute the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden which despite the way little mushrooms grow in a circle for them to sit on, probability seems to point against them.
As for evolution, I am reminded of this quote
“Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species representing changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the logical explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one’s eyes shut and wailing DOES NOT!”
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sighjay says:
I believe its still known as the “Theory of Evolution”
Evolution is not a theory, as defined in biology. Evolution is an observed process and natural phenomenon in the world, akin to gravity or aging. As such, it is a scientific fact.
The word theory applies to the various theories used to understand the processes behind the generally accepted scientific fact that is evolution.
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@ Patrick
Your point is what exactly? That God believers don’t have compassion for women who get in trouble or the babies they carry? Please, they offer many free services including adoption, job placement, counselling, homecare, housing etc. as a viable options to help woman with these dilemnas.
Believers in general are a good bunch; warm hearted and generous. Religious belief has an important role in human life and bestows all sorts of benefits on the believer. (Sort of like a giant, cosmic placebo effect).
The kind of believer I don’t like is the kind who is willing to condemn women who choose to have an abortion or who would happily take away their right to do so without every having been in that situation themselves.
History has shown that even in countries where abortions are illegal, they still happen. It’s just that they are conducted in dangerous conditions and frequently end up with the mother losing her life or health also. Surely an even greater tragedy? Or do you think they deserve what they get?
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@ Patrick
What happens when these people become a majority in this purely atheistic society? The answer is they take over the government, change the laws as they see “fit”. You may counter, how can that happen because all the atheist I know are decent human beings? It can happen because there is no “moral compass” in a purely atheistic society. Morality can change at any time and by anyone, after all, if there is no God to judge us then who must I answer to and that answer is only myself.
Atheists and agnosts do have a moral compass, be it not the one imposed by a godlike figure whose existence so far has not been proved. The moral compass they rely on has also been brought forth by eons of evolution, not in a Darwinistic sense which refers only to biological life, but by intellectual evolution – the Evolution of Mind so to speak. Belief in a godlike figure has in many instances been part of this Evolution of Mind until the emergence of science began to show that things weren’t quite as simple and that a lot more options had to be explored before we are able to answer the ‘big question’. This is the way Evolution works, by trial and error, by falling and rising, on its way to adaptation and perfection.
Do atheists and agnosts have the answer? No, certainly not in the case of agnosts otherwise they shouldn’t be called as such. But I believe that it lies within the line of Evolution that by investigating and probing the Truth hopefully – if we don’t destroy ourselves which could also be considered an evolutionary risk – will come out.
Another question one could ask is why god – or what we believe him/her/it to be – would have allowed the natural world, including our own biology, to evolve according to darwinistic principles but excluding the moral and intellectual evolution to go along with it.
Morality can change at any time and by anyone, after all, if there is no God to judge us then who must I answer to and that answer is only myself.
You – and I don’t mean you individually but as part of humanity – will have to answer to the karmic principles of evolution. If you do the right thing you will make the world an infinitesimal better place. If you don’t… well karma can be a bitch too.
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Hi Patrick,
@ Fazwia – I think your interpetation of Numbers is interesting and different than mine would be. The point of the passage is to show how adultry would be dealt with when involving a woman during the time of the Exodus. The Bible says they were a “stiff necked” people an quite rebellious against Moses who was their appointed leader. They were stiff necked despite witnessing many miracles including plagues against their Eygptian captors, the parting of the Red Sea, and manna (heavenly food) sent to them daily from the sky. The 40 year wandering the desert was to make them a people worthy of the Promised Land.
This isn’t my interpretation, its what the NIV Bible says, I gather you have far more scholastic knowledge than the NIV authors?
An adulterous woman, according to the OT wouldn’t be dealt with with poisoned water, she’d be stoned to death, if there were witnesses.
This is an instance of a woman whose husband simply suspects that she’s committed adultery, without any proof or witness whatsoever.
A man could lie with whosoever he pleaseth, there’d be no punishment for him, so long as he wasn’t sleeping with another man’s wife, in which case he too would be stoned to death for using another man’s property.
Anyway, this poisoned water is dangeous enough, as even you would understand from reading the passage, the woman’s belly swells, theigh rots, she undergoes terrible physical agony.
If she’s pregnant, as Jewish married women of the period would almost constantly be, a potion which makes her theigh rot wouldn’t spare her fetus either, it would suffer damage or get aborted.
The point of the passage is what you utterly missed. It shows how little God cares about women & any fetuses that they’re carrying, how the woman is entirely her husband’s property & can be treated as he wants.
Man can sleep with any unmarried woman, but his wife gets punished in this ghastly way only because her husband suspects that she’s adulterous, God cares nothing for her physical health or for any baby that she’s carrying.
While I don’t condone rampant abortions for convenience, I have to say that we’ve come a long way from God’s barbaric laws, to man made ethical laws, where no suspicious husband can feed his wife poisonous water to destroy her health & cause abortions & get away with it.
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@Fawzia – Interesting interpretation again and I guess I have a much different interpretation that you have been able to muster. I stand with what I said but will add this ceremony was to weed out the guilty from the non-guilty and to do away with a husband’s jealousy (represented by the bitter water). The innocent had nothing to fear and it was God who disclosed the guilty party by taking her life after she drank the bitter mixture.
@ET – Interesting point of view you have concerning the evolution of the mind. Do you speak of a real evolution (change through natural selection or change through the accumulation of knowledge over the centuries?).
@BrotherMouzone – You are right God believers tend to be much more generous of their time, talent and money to help other less fortunate than themselves. One recent study I saw was that God believers gace on average 10X more money per year than atheist.
Abortion is a very sensitive topic and it brings out lots of emotion. However, let’s not forget that in 18 days a beating heart can be detected so we are talking about a life seperate from the mothers. Many women who partake in abortion have post psychological difficulties. The Los Angeles Times (a fairly liberal newspaper) reported 56% of the women surveyed reported feeling guilty and 26% regretted having an abortion. Lots of things are on the books as crimes and people still do them so does that make them right?
@Sighjay & Oigal – Yes most scientists quite blindly believe in evolution but there is a growing body of evidence to refute most of Evolution Theory and age classification through fozzilization. The central question is if we evolved to our present form from something else what was it exactly? How did it form? How did the beginning happen? Can you show step-up eveolution? Plenty of examples of horizontal evolution and step down evolution but what about step up? How do you explain fozzilization happening in only decades and not the thousands or millions of years that scientist say that it happens? Why does DNA evidence gathered from around the globe seem to support the bible? Good luck!
@Oigal – The Bible and the Quoran seem to agree on that first one so what was your point exactly?
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That was my post Marisa
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Hi Patrick,
@Fawzia – Interesting interpretation again and I guess I have a much different interpretation that you have been able to muster. I stand with what I said but will add this ceremony was to weed out the guilty from the non-guilty and to do away with a husband’s jealousy (represented by the bitter water). The innocent had nothing to fear and it was God who disclosed the guilty party by taking her life after she drank the bitter mixture.
Well, interpretations of this grotesque ritual won’t do much to turn pro choice feminists into pro life Patrick. They’ll be easily able to identify this grossly unkind & discriminatory ritual for what it is, & choose atheism over your God.
Try this ceremony on some guilty v. non guilty woman Patrick, see if only the guilty lose their life\suffer horrible internal damage, or both types of women suffer… 😉
And why should a woman who commits adultery, even if guilty, be given the death sentence?
Why didn’t your God give an equivalent test for men, who were allowed to have multiple sexual partners? 😉
Thats’ exactly what the feminists would ask you, if you try to convince them via your discriminatory God.
You see, everyone isn’t a brainwashed little fool. 😉
If you want to change the opinion of an African American on some issue, I hope you’d not be foolish enough to quote ugly, racist passages from some White Supremacist website, give your racist “interpretations” to such passages, then expect the African Americans to accept your viewpoint & ichange his mind.
Likewise, you & your ilk are likely to make little headway with feminist & atheist women who even on a cursory reading of your holy texts, realize how utterly sexist & discriminatory your God is, they’ll be even more turned off by your “interpretation” of husbands & priests killing adulterous women via mud water, while husbands have all the rights of sleeping with any unmarried woman. 😉
So if you want to try to turn pro choice women into pro life, you can’t really offer such interpretations.
Try reading up the atheist & agnostic arguments against abortion, then you won’t getcaught up in this mess of interpreting sexist religious literature & trying to make feminist atheists see the error of their ways by shoving an incredibly discriminating God down their throats! 😉
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@ Lairedion – Nice example regarding MD. I am always happy to be her friend but I have not heard from her in quite a long time.
@ Donna – my recollection is that Paul opened up to the whole world the teachings of Jesus Christ and it was Jesus himself who started the Church when he made Peter His rock or foundation. All present popes have an unbroken lineage to Peter and not Paul.