Expats
Oct 3rd, 2006, in Society, by PatungOn the “quality”, or possible lack thereof, of expatriates in Indonesia.
Visitor Parvita, on the dating Indonesian girls article, makes these, somewhat stinging, remarks about expatriates in Indonesia.
I’ve gone out both with Indonesian and expat men (western and eastern) and my lesson to learn is: expats are just for fun and not to be taken seriously.
Most of them that comes over here, especially the westerners, are those who cannot “compete” in their country. And when they come over here, they make better living because our country pays expats waaaaaay better than nationals. Then they became like kings, thinking that they are superiors, and some girls fall for them. For instance, would you think a very successful and smart lawyer, or businessmen in England would move to a country like Indonesia? And the houses they live in in Kemang, when they go back to their countries, say, Italy, they will just live in a one bedroom apartment (or a studio) with no driver and a really small car, commuting to the city? The place I live and the car I drive currently is much much better than what they have.
I deal with lots of western expats, some of them are my friends. They told me that when they are here, they are handsome. In their countries, they are invisible. There you go, a confession from an Australian.
Some expats are even so obnoxious, having to live in the states for long, I know they are the loser kind but when they are here, they are surrounded by women and think that they are God’s gift to women.
When a smart, rich, independent Indonesian women dates an expat here, that expat must be a really damn good one! [bold added]
Certainly some home truths there, but the “Most of them…” part may not stand up to analysis.
520 Comments on “Expats”
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Tammy Ho/Achmad said:
She’s also admitted that 1) She’s had bad romantic relationships with Bules and 2) Is angry because some get paid more than her. So she’s got what we’d call motive for making those claims.
Woooow, did I say that? Let me clarify then: I’ve had good and bad romantic relationships with bule’s, one expat and several non-expats, Chinese, Jewish, Indonesians from Sabang to Merauke (well, not that much to the east actually). I also had good romantic relationships with them. What race I’ve dated has nothing to do with the article. The article is, as far as I can remember, was about how expats in Indonesia, NOT Caucasians, are overrated.
The second point, not quite right too…because expats do get paid more. Have to compensate for what they left back in their home country, right? My Indonesian expat colleagues in the Arab countries, Malaysia, Libya, etc also makes more, including compensations for the family, when they are abroad. So I don’t envy them. Plus I make good enough money anyways, enough to go scuba diving every weekend to Bali.
It’s basically about how shocked expats are when they come to Indonesia, how easy and cheap people and things are and forget how it was back in their origin. Sort of around that area. And I guess it covers more the bule’ because they stands out like a sore thumb. While, Indonesian expats don’t really make a scene when they are outside the country.
Anita: in the oil industry, there is a thing called ‘cost recovery’. Lots of western companies like BP, ENI, ConocoPhillips, ExxonMobil, etc, who already produced oil & gas, get their exploration money back from the government. And one of the way for the company to cut cost in their home country is to send some of their employees to Indonesia, because their salaries are included in the cost recovery. This includes their salary, compensation, premium, children’s school, and compensation for the wife if the wife used to work back home. The cost for one head, depending on their position cout reach USD 300,000 to USD 600,000 per head, per year. All paid by the GOI. Of course some people are pretty pissed off, especially if the expat sent here are crap quality. I’m pretty sure some of the other institutions like World Bank, IMF, some of the NGOs that grew like mushrooms after the Suharto era, etc has their own stories, too. This is probably why the good ones usually stay back at home, while the so-so ones gets sent to Indonesia.
What really sometimes pisses me off is that they come here, bitch about the poor people, corruptions, badmouthing the government we have to deal with in the industry (while mostly the Indonesians are the ones that has to deal with the government and the culture that often frustrates me as an Indonesian-hey, isn’t this why they are paid big for) bitch about how terrible this country is, yet they are living in heaven on earth, and they don’t really want to go back to their home countries.
Sure there are good quality ones that works good and care about the Indonesians and adapt well with the culture, even married to Indonesian women/men (the last is pretty rare though). But then they also slip too on their personal lives, sadly enough.
All in all, expats are human, not gods. And yes, some idiot Indonesians still thinks that just because they are bule, they must be better then Indonesians. Nope, not necessarily so.
And I’m surprised the English teacher thing showed up. And surprised that this topic comes up again, a year after it was posted! Halloween?
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Fred Floggle says:
Three points:
First, I said RELATIONSHIP not MARRIAGE. Given this your entire argument falls off a cliff. Go back and rethink your argument”¦.
The expat English teachers seldom marry the girls, you have sexual relations. From what I have seen many of the girls are too young to marry anyway.
Second, you ask where I get my perceptions from. Well actually its from meeting and talking to everyday locals. I find it’s far better than Achmads policy or just reading the newspapers and believing the garbage in them.
Thirdly, and most interestingly, since you brought them up lets look at your family. Isnt it a bit strange that eight of your female relatives have married bules? As Pap Achman points out, they are unimportant, invisible and are 0.00000000000003 percent of the population. I find that a very strange phenomena. There are lots of locals they could marry, but EIGHT marry bule???
Can I ask two questions (seriously, this is interesting)
a) How many Aunts and female cousins do you have in total? Im trying to establish percentages here”¦.
b) How many Uncles and male cousins have married bule women?I thank you in advance for your answers, but feel you will decline to give them.
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Rambutan says:
I find that a very strange phenomena. There are lots of locals they could marry, but EIGHT marry bule???
Chain migration. Not an uncommon phenomena. Check the literature.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Parvita,
Many thanks for that.
t’s basically about how shocked expats are when they come to Indonesia, how easy and cheap people and things are and forget how it was back in their origin. Sort of around that area. And I guess it covers more the bule’ because they stands out like a sore thumb. While, Indonesian expats don’t really make a scene when they are outside the country.
Always good to get an articulate perspective from an Indonesian woman. Not that Indonesians and women aren’t articulate. Sometimes, though, Indonesia suffers from over-politeness to outsiders and don’t articulate their position.
The below quote is a telling point I don’t think most people understand. I’ve heard similar stories from the institutions you mention, also the media and a place in Bogor, CEFOR.
Anita: in the oil industry, there is a thing called ‘cost recovery’. Lots of western companies like BP, ENI, ConocoPhillips, ExxonMobil, etc, who already produced oil & gas, get their exploration money back from the government. And one of the way for the company to cut cost in their home country is to send some of their employees to Indonesia, because their salaries are included in the cost recovery. This includes their salary, compensation, premium, children’s school, and compensation for the wife if the wife used to work back home. The cost for one head, depending on their position cout reach USD 300,000 to USD 600,000 per head, per year. All paid by the GOI. Of course some people are pretty pissed off, especially if the expat sent here are crap quality. I’m pretty sure some of the other institutions like World Bank, IMF, some of the NGOs that grew like mushrooms after the Suharto era, etc has their own stories, too. This is probably why the good ones usually stay back at home, while the so-so ones gets sent to Indonesia.
Good to clarify the whole argument – and get away from picking on English teachers.
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Damnit Rambutan, you spoiled my fun. 🙂
Yes you are right, chain migration. But if my suspicions are right we will find that more than 50% of Tammy’s Aunts and female cousins have married bules, whereas ZERO Uncles and male cousins have married bule females.
Now Pup Achbum claims bules are unimportant, invisible and represent a tiny percentage of the males that Tammy family will come into contact with. But strange enough eight of them married bules.
If they were invisible, unimportant and such a small percentage then how come they are so highly misrepresented in the Ho household. It rather destroys Tammy argument and knocks a big one into Pap Achbuk’s comments.
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Always good to get an articulate perspective from an Indonesian woman. Not that Indonesians and women aren’t articulate. Sometimes, though, Indonesia suffers from over-politeness to outsiders and don’t articulate their position.
Funny how everyone bitched about Parvita until they discovered that she isn’t some kampong girl but a highly articulate professional with a far better education and job that most of the people posting here”¦”¦
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Fred: it’s the weekend. Get a life.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
It’s amazing that threads dealing with Indonesian women and sex always seem to become like never-ending stories.
This been said, forgive me my ignorance but a few questions pop up.– Are Western women and girls becoming so demanding and bitchy that young bule men flock to a sh*thole like JKT to get laid and comforted?
– Are Indonesian girls so disappointed and fed up with local guys that they throw themselves at anything wearing trousers or shorts with white legs sticking out? Is the color of money so much more important than the color of skin?
– How long does it take before the average expat gets bored in JKT and starts arguing in the blogosphere?Ihaknt
Halah gini aja diributin.
Parvita, hats off for creating havoc, it’s very funny to see male ego head-butting each other here.And like in animal kingdom the females watch from a distance and go home with the winner. 😉
Pakmantri
Anyway, what do you think will happen if your postings fall into the hand of some FPI or Betawi Rempug people?
I agree with Pakmantri. The obnoxiously libertine attitude of some Westerns towards people of traditionally ‘family-values’ inclined cultures – we had examples in this forum e.g. Dating Indonesian Girls – is grist on the mill of the FPI and other fundamentalist thugs. Situations like this will eventually lead to more polarizing. Whether this is good or bad and where it will lead to is another question. Maybe I will become a muslim convert. Imagine that.
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dewaratugedeanom,
Impressive post.
Achmad.
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I concur, impressive post, and exactly what I am saying:
The obnoxiously libertine attitude of some Westerns towards people of traditionally ‘family-values’ inclined cultures
Note carefully what dewaratugedeanom is saying – its NOT me raising it as an issue that is his concern, it is the fact that this “libertine attitude” is being conducted at all.
And as I said before, the greatest number of bules in Jakarta right now, and the biggest group to take advantage of this situation, is English teachers. If it were door to door brush salesmen from the Kalahari desert I would be bagging them instead.
How do you fix the problem: you need to make sure that the motive of the expat English teachers is the joys of teaching in culturally different environments, and not the simplest way to get a job (and sex) in Asia. Maybe if ESOL took 3 years of hard study instead of 4 weeks”¦.
Alternatively, Indonesia could get over its sycophant worship of white skin and use more locals.
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dee says:
finally…we need the solving not merely never ending debates without solution….
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Dee,
I agree, however in my humble experience you need to demonstate (prove in this case) the requirement before you can offer solutions…..
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Agree Fred, but as it has happened for so many years, so many proves we have already…like others problems we have had in our beloved country as well…being discussed by many parties for long years…never ending disscusion but never got any solution.
And so interesting this discussion focusing on ‘expat’ English Teacher, but never mentioned about any other groups of expat in Indonesia who have shagged local girls”¦my opinion”¦whatever the work they have, these ‘expat’ are just the same in term of sexual attitude toward local girls”¦mostly have shagged local girls as the local girls have offered these expat the opportunities”¦and this phenomena has triggered Indonesian people who want to have easy money and fun life style to make sex become one of our best commodities as we have great and abundant assets”¦once even the government had an idea to make it as ‘undang-undang’-any expat who want to marry Indonesian girls had to deposit certain amount of money to government (as protection to Indonesian girls if any divorced would be happened in the future)”¦you can see now Fred, Achmad, Tuan, and others”¦even the government ever saw this as a great opportunity.
Anyway, about English teacher matter”¦I agree if those who wants to be any English teacher in Indonesia have to have proper capacity so Indonesian generation in the future not merely have ability to speak English fluently but the grammar as well”¦and also for other language teachers, and many of Indonesian have that skills”¦many Indonesian even have better grammar than English spoken people itself.
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Dee,
many Indonesian even have better grammar than English spoken people itself”¦
You’re not one of them…
Alternatively, Indonesia could get over its sycophant worship of white skin and use more locals.
Neither’s Fred. What he really means is sycophantic
worship of white skin. Only a mentally ill person, however, perhaps in the midst of a bipolar attack, would worship the likes of him. -
Achmad,
You’re not one of them.Yes, I admit it…I am not one of them, coz I am just an uneducated Indonesian who is bored to be a watcher and never gave my opinion about any issue in my own country…I am one of million Indonesian citizens who is willing to have better education from teachers who really have willingness to improve our nation…I have the idea Pak Achmad, but I do not know how to say it properly, in perfect grammar…if you are Indonesian, or you really have heart to be a good educator…see us then.
Even Fred sound sarcastic, but I agree with his idea”¦there is a saying, but I prefer to say it in Bahasa”¦”Jangan pernah melakukan suatu hal dengan setengah hati”.
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Hey, FF, we still bitch about Parvita because she makes gross generalisations based on encounters with expats, generally at work, and a somewhat limited social life based around a few bars ~ or dives as she calls them. (I still wonder, P. if anyone’s told you what Cork and Screw actually means). 😉
Which leads to the biggest question of all FF, and one she pertinently asks: why did you decide to enter the fray a year late? Given that you have a prurient interest in the goings on of a bunch of people you say you despise, it would appear that you get your kicks from voyeurism.
I’m ceasing my subscription to this thread; although Concerned Teacher, A.S., Anita, and several others have tried to reason with you, FF, it’s all got extremely tedious.
If you think that living in Indonesia is actually ok, then please find something worthwhile to do other than making ill-advised and extremely repetitious ‘observations’. You may find that getting laid is it. Otherwise, get your own life in order, preferably back from whence you came ~ Scunthorpe?
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The reason for concentrating on English Teachers is two fold:
Firstly, they comprise the greatest percentage of bules in Jakarta. This is relatively new phenomena, certainly post the economics crisis and riots that chased out most the “true” expats.
Secondly, the other expats are usually sent to Jakarta. They happen to be in a profession or career that takes them to Jakarta. They DON’T select a career specifically to get into Jakarta, and the motive for getting into Jakarta therefore CANNOT be sexual.
There is a big difference between a man who finds himself in Jakarta and has a sexual relationship, and that of a man who specifically undertakes a course with the intention of obtaining work in Jakarta and therefore accessing a sexual relationship. This is nothing more than sex tourism.
Please read and reread this statement until you see what I am talking about, because it is the crux of my argument.
There are men in Jakarta right now who are there specifically for access to girls. This isn’t right, and anyone who thinks it is needs to take a long look at their values and standards.
Re-read the comment by Indcoup:
After all, if she were a nice Indo girl, she wouldn’t be messing around with those fornicating lust-driven bules, would she?
Sure many expats adopt the four f’s code of living in Indonesia (find feel f*ck forget).
But then again why not?
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I find myself increasingly aroused by your posts, Fred.
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FF, you re-write Indcoup statement, I assume you agree with him-from my point of view, Indcoup generalised expat in Indonesia, whatever their job in Indonesia, they adopt that f’s code (find, feel, f*ck, forget)…so it not merely English teacher, even the ‘true’ expat you had mentioned where their intention obtaining work in Jakarta (at begining) but when they are in Indonesia, they would adapt theirself to Indonesian and expat (who have lived in Indonesia) culture. So, whatever the expat profession and intention in Jakarta, they have that f’s code and they enjoy it…and you might be one of them FF…whatever group you are in, you have enjoyed living in Indonesia and shagged local girls…
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Now I find myself aroused by you, Dee.
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You speechless about being a good educator Achmad?
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Dee,
I’m not speechless: anyone who wants to be educated deserves much better than my inane (stupid) rantings (tulisan ngawur). 🙂 !
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If you could spend more of times to write this inane rantings means that you just like others, who could speak things but never showed any action??
If you are an English teacher, so you just like other English teacher who have passed the 4 weeks training like what FF mentioned.
It means that no difference between ‘true’ English teacher who had been educated for teaching skills for years as you mentioned and English teacher from thos backpackers who only passed 4 weeks training?Achmad,
Fred: it’s the weekend. Get a life.
How about you? About me, I am trying to get a life being here, I am working as internet operator”¦
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FF, you re-write Indcoup statement, I assume you agree with him-from my point of view, Indcoup generalised expat in Indonesia, whatever their job in Indonesia, they adopt that f’s code (find, feel, f*ck, forget)”¦so it not merely English teacher, even the ‘true’ expat you had mentioned where their intention obtaining work in Jakarta (at begining) but when they are in Indonesia, they would adapt theirself to Indonesian and expat (who have lived in Indonesia) culture. So, whatever the expat profession and intention in Jakarta, they have that f’s code and they enjoy it”¦and you might be one of them FF”¦whatever group you are in, you have enjoyed living in Indonesia and shagged local girls”¦
Dee, I posted it because it is a shocking attitude to have as a guest in another country, and smack of colonialism that we would do well without. It is even more shocking that no one commented upon it – even the Indonesians.
For your information, I would estimate based upon my own observations and anecdotal evidence that something like 50% of the expats in Jakarta now are English Teachers.
I would also estimate based upon the same experiences and evidence, that they are disproportionately represented in the number of bules taking advantage of locals.
I would suggest two reasons for this:
Most professionals are not sent on overseas postings by major companies until they have some life experience, usually obtained over a number of years. They tend to be older and wiser than the English teachers.
Secondly, corporations worry about their corporate imager and reputation, and most expats on overseas postings for major companies want to keep their job and perks.
Notice Dee, its Saturday night and I am posting on the internet, whilst the English teachers on this site are strangely absent. Do you wonder what they are doing right now, and to whom?
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Sounds like we both agree on things and soon will be attacked by others??? 🙂
Have a nice weekend friends”¦peace to you all, hope some will think about win win solution, be a real teacher or I would say educator to Indonesian people whether they are local or expat, especially for locals, expat not superior to us, they are God creation, just the same with us, some of them are smart but us, Indonesian have lot of smart people as well.
Treat people the same without seeing the race, position, belonging or any material things
Take some critics from others to improve ourself and thanks them for being concern to our matters. -
Pena Budaya says:
Most of them that comes over here, especially the westerners, are those who cannot “compete” in their country. And when they come over here, they make better living because our country pays expats waaaaaay better than nationals.
Well, people can not just become expats without skills, relevant experience and good education. If that is the case happened in TNCs in Indonesia as Parvita’s claims, then the TNCs’offices are ineffective in hiring the right expats.
/Mostly expats I worked with in Indonesia and now in Europe were/are having impressive working experience, good education and most important as well, able to speak at least 3 different languages. Some of them even managed to learn local languages.
As an expat, you were always paid higher than locals where ever you were, not only in Indonesia. Working in developing countries like Indonesia is usually a path to higher career in their home country or other country unless, they were screwing around during their assignments. That is the fact and this is also applied to Indonesians who were becoming expats.
Then they became like kings, thinking that they are superiors, and some girls fall for them.
This is too generalising the situation of the expats. Perhaps there are expats like that but it is not the case in all expats I have met and known. Expatriates from western European countries, especially, are not used to have housemaids staying at home. Most of them are having difficulties to accept “strangers” staying at home and serving them for almost 24 hours a day. Do you think that they dont face this as a culture shock? I am surprise that if this culture shock ends to superiority..
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Now I feel aroused by you as well, Pena Budaya.
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I really should have unsubscribed to this thread, but as the same old tired clichés are being trotted out, can we please make one last effort to deal with reality?
As a point of information the last time I checked, the Koreans constituted the largest number of expats, followed by the Japanese. I would think that the native Chinese are now rapidly swelling in number. Bear in mind that industry ~ manufacturing, mining and oil ~ employ the most expat workers, predominantly as managers or as trainers for the ‘transference of technology’. There are more bars in Blok M for those nationals than there are for westerners.
Some hundred comments ago or so, I pointed out that the English language sector here is market driven and that ‘bums on seats’ is the main criteria in selecting staff. Good entertainers, performing monkeys as I call them, are more important than university lecturers. This is because the majority of students in language classes are children and employees who’ve been ‘coerced’ into taking a course. Therefore, a less serious approach is needed than the ‘academic’ one, especially if there isn’t an exam at the end of the course. Repeat business is good business and being entertained is preferable to being bored.
Some unqualified teachers are better at making students smile than those with degrees in linguistics and a diploma in methodology, and if they learn something about Asian culture, about mutual respect and about their place in this world whilst they are passing through ~ travel being a mind broadening experience, then good luck to them. It’s not as if they come here with evil intentions.
Or, apart from FF, come looking for them.
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Tuan says:
dee:
Treat people the same without seeing the race, position, belonging or any material things
Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.
Pena:
Most of them are having difficulties to accept “strangers” staying at home and serving them for almost 24 hours a day. Do you think that they dont face this as a culture shock? I am surprise that if this culture shock ends to superiority.
It maybe culture shock at first, but after awhile they get used to it and accept it. I know this from personal experience living in one of the Gulf Arab countries where imported professionals are given awesome benefits. I remember talking to an English lady and she enjoyed living there and having a three story home, with paid maid and car and spending her day sunbathing (in a complex btw) and shopping. And it yeah I have noticed that attitudes do form after watching them trying to bargain at a bazaar.
Fred:
2. Do you understand the stigma attached to a girl who has had a relationship with a bule? Do you think she has a chance of a good marriage? Trust me, the average narrow minded (and sexually insecure) Indonesian man will not go near a girl who has dated a Westerner. This is true not only in Indonesia, but also in Japan, Korea and China.
there are always stigmas attached to interracial romances (or flings). Even in the western countries where some of the “bules” come from, stigmatize white women with non-white men (I am surprise none are talking about that). Some of the white women I have known have children from relationships with black men and no white guy would want to have a relationship, as opposed to children from white men. I have noticed the same with black women who date outside of their race who no longer become appealing to black men.
From my experience and the experience of some of my acquaintances who date white women, it is the women from our own races that are outwardly insecure and more than likely to give us a dirty look. lol.
Anyhow, people hook up because of availability at that moment of their life. If I lived and grew up in Indonesia chances are I would have a relationship with a local girl.
Parvita
Sure there are good quality ones that works good and care about the Indonesians and adapt well with the culture, even married to Indonesian women/men (the last is pretty rare though)
That’s because they are hooking while living in the western countries and not in Indonesia. Presidential candidate Barak Obama’s white mother got hitched with an Indonesian man in America.
~Tuan – Indonesian American Muslim
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Heh? Based on what proof? This is a generalisation gone overboard. Marrying an Indonesian holds no guarantee the marriage will last anyway. As you said the “the average narrow minded”, you nailed it there. The ‘broad minded’ people will normally get over it and are ok with things in the past. Every one has a past life. And if the woman is smart, she won’t go for the ‘narrow minded’ anyway. Most women get over it, if these ‘narrow minded’ people dont want them. There are plenty of fish in the ocean. It seems you fall into this category ‘narrow minded’ FF, maybe you need to get out more.