God Needs Spin Doctor
Sep 6th, 2010, in Opinion, by Guest WriterReligion is faith. Faith is an absence of Reason. Lack of Reason leads to the absurd.
When considering evolution, a debate kept alive by hardened theologists, facts are often misconstrued to the level of individualistic proselytization, highly probable the result of indoctrination none of which are scientific nor rational and too often misleading. Evolution never questions nor attempts to disprove the existence of a mighty supernatural being. It simply states that over time organism transforms by mutation. Biological based virus go through forms of mutation. It is a well proven fact. Even the ancient Greek catered to that idea.
However, this essay relates to another form of evolution. One that is specifically cognitive based: intellectualism.
With the advent of science, humans have progressed exponentially. Not only have we reached the stars we can also define in specific terms what a star is made of. Science is dynamic, what we have established today as scientific Law (eg, the Law of Gravity) can change as our technology advances leading to discoveries which may disprove the latter. That is the beauty of science. The Truth is a variable that can only be accepted as true when tested by varying intermediaries until proven otherwise. Whether Jane jumps off the Empire State Building or Fifi vaulted over the Eiffel Tower, their final destination is always down. Thus the Law of Gravity is True.
Religion, however, is the exact opposite. It is fixed, constant, if not latently updated yet still must stand to inquiries based on obsolete – some mythical – antiquities thus remain spiteful of modernity. The latter is true at least in the intellectual sense.
Consider the modern concept of Human Equality popularized by the General Assembly of the United Nation in 1948. The idea that one’s religion is equal to any other religion, therefore Allah is equal to Vishnu, will incite bomb threats from every Islamists all over the globe. Will the Christian exact the same reverence to the Islamic Quran as the literal word of God? One church in Florida plans to burn the Quran this September 11.
The Abrahamic religions preach everything is equal before the eyes of God. But it is not very truthful is it? It wasn’t true for the Ammonite and the Moabite. In the Quran, Allah turned Jews into monkeys and pigs. Certainly favoritism not equality is the nature of God. Accept Jesus and you will be saved. How about for the other billions of people on this planet who don’t?
When we compare the Acts of God in the Old Testament, the Bible and the Quran, it is apparent we, humans, have transgressed the greatest and most fearsome sin of all, we have evolved.
Consider Lot of Sodom. Both in the Christian and Islam tradition, when the hedonistic Sodomites insisted Lot gave away his angelic visitors, he offered his daughters instead. No human of high moral upstanding today would callously offer the flesh of his daughter to satiate the public’s lust. To prove his loyalty to God, Abraham without hesitation placed his son on the altar ready to slit the boy’s throat. Insanity would be Abraham’s best choice for defense in the modern court today. In the Islamic Hadith, Muhammad was documented to favor stoning for charges of adultery. Well, that issue is still an ongoing controversy on CNN.
Apologists will and very often debate that actions done or commanded to God’s apostles have temporal relevance. But isn’t God infinite? Should not God, by His Glorified Wisdom, guess that in a thousand years we will deemed such deeds as barbaric and inhumane? Wouldn’t have God foresee that by the twentieth century, us, humans, advocating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which condemns, pretty much a large percentage in His Holy Texts, as a crime against humanity? I would expect Allah to whisper in Muhammad’s ear to lay off Aisha cause she’ll reflect negatively in public opinion a couple of centuries later.
With the promulgation of Christianity of the Byzantine period in Europe, the old ancient gods were eschewed to obscurity. Now that we are in the twenty first century, humans once again evolved intellectually and outgrew their celestial lord. The One God needs a major upgrade to maintain relevance or hires one kick-ass public relation officer.
155 Comments on “God Needs Spin Doctor”
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Lairedion says:
Patrick, I’m not your adversary. You have these imaginary competitions, not me. For me, it’s just having fun, nothing more. If you feel being targeted and harassed by me, I offer you my sincere apologies and will leave you alone from now on.
madrotter, thanks for sharing.
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Patrick says:
@Lairedion please spare me the sacremonious tone of your last post (ya! Pun intended) :). And thanks for managing to make almost everyone, who has an opposing view from your’s, to appear smarter than they really are. You are blessed with an amazing talent. :). (Ya intended) ha ha ha!
@Madrotter – You know what I really admire about atheist & agnostic types is their ability to blindly follow the likes of Bill Maher (your messiah?) and believe every word that comes out of his mouth or that transpires in his movie as hard evidence or fact. I guess that’s what they mean by “Blind Faith”. Ha ha ha! (Ya intended) 🙂
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Wow Patrick! You’re really finding your voice here ain’t you??? Don’t get too cocky;)
I don’t think Bill Maher is always that funny but this docu is really pretty good actually, very funny part with the big hippie who plays Jesus on his way to Golghota and the crucifiction, that ultra-extreme Jewish guy in the beginning was funny too….
Personally, I like the great,late Bill Hicks a lot more. Or Lenny Bruce…
Here’s a bit of Bill Hicks for you to chew on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxsGyljd6B0
I’ve got no mood for all the discussions about religion that’s why you don’t usually see me in these posts, they never lead anywhere and mostly are a complete waste of time and energy, all you get is people throwing wikipedia links at each other, never talking to each other but mainly to themselves. I had a beautiful babyboy born just 3 days ago, I’m busy with my blog putting some of the best Indonesian music made up for download and I’m busy with stuff for handicapped kids (will be going a lot to Flores next year) so I’ve got better things to do….
Following a religion or not following any religion at all (or following as many as you can) is a matter of personal choice. It’s nobody’s business… Take a deep breath. Close your eyes. Don’t think. Relax….
And you’re on your way Patrick…
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although I gotta say I loved the first post here and I hope to read a lot more by Tania
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And thanks for managing to make almost everyone, who has an opposing view from your’s, to appear smarter than they really are.
Actually Patrick, that’s one of my main drives to post here. It only doesn’t work with you. Good you noted that yourself by saying “almost everyone”. I’ve read back your comments on this post and, sorry, I tried hard but I cannot make you appear smarter than you really are. I give up.
madrotter, bedankt voor Bill Hicks, geniaal.
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Agree. And very brave too. For an Indonesian it’s nearly impossible to discuss about religion in a critical and open way. I can tell from my own experience.
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graag gedaan!
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Odinius says:
No Patrick, you don’t appear to understand the Vatican’s official stance on evolution. Given that Catholicism is a top-down religion, with one source of official authority on theological matters, it’s probably a good idea for you to acquaint yourself more closely with what the Church is actually saying, before you deem to speak for the Church.
As for board spamming, yes, it’s highly irritating and, as far as I’m concerned, reflects poorly on your arguments, as it makes them look dogmatic and rehearsed, rather than rational and dynamic. If you consider this a “winning debate style,” I’d suggest you return to some basic primers on written debate.
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Oigal says:
And thanks for managing to make almost everyone, who has an opposing view from your’s, to appear smarter than they really are.
It does not seem to matter what particular myth the Uberfaithists clutch to, they tend to het testy when finding their self evident “truths” and not so self evident to others. On the other hand Lairedion you are going to have to work much harder to be annointed as an agent of Beelzebub, took me nearly three months of prodding to get the promotion. 🙂
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@Odinius-the big scary Dutch guy(was he the one with his finger in the dyke or the one currently residing in Peru?) did make one valid point & that was the evolutionist types keep throwing around internet links instead of talking Didn’t he also throw around a couple of links & then say it was a waste of time to talk? 🙂
I know your going to say that Pope John Paul II made a statement about Evolution that seemed to acknowledge the Church’s unequiviocal support of Evolution Theory. However, a few later Cardinal Shonborn the Archbiop of Vienna was interviewed by the NY Times & rejected firmly Darwinism as being acceptable to Christian Faith. This announcement stunned your Jesuit friends at the Vatican Observatory who vehmently protested the Cardinal’s remarks to both the Cardinal & Pope Benedict. Guess again which is the official view? 🙂
@Oigal-another too little to late appearence? Ha ha ha! -
@Odiniusthe big scary Dutch guy(was he the one with his finger in the dike or the one currently residing in Peru?) did make one valid point & that was the evolution types keep throwing around internet links instead of talking Didn’t he also throw around a couple of links & then say it was a waste of time to talk? 🙂
I know your going to say that Pope John Paul II made a statement about Evolution that seemed to acknowledge the Church’s unequivocal support of Evolution Theory. However, a few later Cardinal Shonborn the Archbishop of Vienna was interviewed by the NY Times & rejected firmly Darwinism as being acceptable to Christian Faith. This announcement stunned your Jesuit friends at the Vatican Observatory who vehemently protested the Cardinal’s remarks to both the Cardinal & Pope Benedict. Guess again which is the official view? 🙂
@Oigal-another too little to late appearance? Ha ha ha! -
Dear dearest darling Patrick, it’s always a joy to read your posts, specially when your laughing so hard at your own jokes, specially when those jokes are coming from a person who’s about as funny as a mid-winter 1944 hanging at a Nazi death-camp. Now, I could get rude but I won’t, so I will not reply to that unbelievable witty remark about a Dutch finger in a dyke, I will refrain from saying “it wasn’t me, must’ve been some other Dutch guy who had his finger up your moms” because, yes, that would be rude,plus it would be cheap! Not to mention easy! Besides, I’m sure your mom, just like my mom is a lovely lady who deserves all the respect she gets. So, I won’t go there ok! We men should all respect our mothers, sisters, aunts and all other women and be as gentlemanly as we can be. Something Joris van der Sloot didn’t do, so indeed, he is languishing in a Peruvian jail which is not at all like staying in an expensive spa-resort. So, let’s keep this light shall we? I do love trading the old insults so please keep ’em coming but please, try a bit harder!!!
Now you obviously did not watch the Bill Maher docu which is too bad because really, some of the interviews in and around the Vatican kinda contradict all the stuff you’ve been saying. It was indeed a link, not a link to tedious long wikipedia stuff that would cost you hours to plow through but a link to something that would’ve, could’ve (pardon the pun) enlighten you a bit maybe. The other link, to Bill Hicks, well, that one might have gone a bit over your head but I hope some others found it delightful, there’s never been anybody that said it like Bill said it….
In closing,just to throw you another bone to chew on, (you kinda missed the sarcasm that was the reason for placing those links me boy) here’s another link and to keep with the debate let’s call this one the missing link shall we?
http://fuckcopyright.blogspot.com/2008/11/jesus-camp-2006.html
I wish you a pleasant day!!!
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hmmmh…. where’s my comment!? hope it will be here later because i put so much effort in it!
while waiting for it, HERE’S ANOTHER LINK!!!!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/religious-belief-linked-to-being-a-bit-dim-201009293125/
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i guess something went wrong so i’ll re-write it then, waiting for some stuff anyways….
Here we go:
Dear, darling Patrick.I so enjoy your posts! Specially the ones where you are laughing at your own jokes, specially when they’re coming from a person who is about as funny as a 1944 mid-winter hanging at a Nazi death-camp.
I could get rude but I won’t so I will not react to your incredibly witty joke about Dutch fingers in dykes. If I would I would say something like “it wasn’t me, must have been another Dutch guy who had his finger in your moms” but like I said,I won’t. I’m sure your mom,just like my mom is a very nice woman who deserves all the respect she gets. We men all should respect our mothers, sisters and all other women, something Joris van de Sloot didn’t do, so indeed, he’s languishing in a Peruvian jail, not a expensive spa-resort at all… And with his daddy dead in the beginning of this year it looks like he’ll be there for a while too…I love the old insult-trading but you gotta come a bit more harder Patrick, dykes, windmills and tulips just won’t do, not even the old splintery wooden shoe up the arse won’t make it so please, try a little harder!
Yes I put up a link, to underscore my point but alas, you didn’t get it, just like you probably didn’t get the Bill Hicks link which probably would’ve gone a bit over your head anyways. You probably also didn’t watch that Bill Maher docu which is too bad because his interviews in and around the Vatican kinda undermined all you were writing, Bill Maher, certainly not as funny and on point as the great Bill Hicks was did a pretty damn good job with this one!
In closing I will give you (yes) another link:
http://fuckcopyright.blogspot.com/2008/11/jesus-camp-2006.html
Have fun watching it and have a nice day!
let’s see if I manage to post this this time around…
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Ha ha ha! Ya madrotter but then again your no Einstein are you?:) Ya Einstein was dim witted enough to come to believe in Creative Design.
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sigh….
you now sweet darling patrick, i wrote a fantastic answer this morning and for some reason it didn’t get posted. re-wrote it again and it didn’t get posted again. cape deh…
i’ll give it one more try and then i’ll just give up, it’s like talking with one of those foot between the door jehova types anyways, and no, i’m no einstein but you are misquoting him like your type does, when he said “god doesn’t play with dice” he didn’t mean it in the way that you would like it…
but you knew that already dontcha?
so let’s see if this post gets posted then i will give it one more last try ok, maybe i got censored although i think i kept it rather nice myself….
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right… this is kinda what i tried to post earlier:
dear darling dearest patrick. you are one funny guy! especially when you are laughing so hard at your own jokes and are the only one laughing. specially when it’s coming from somebody who is as funny as a 1944 mid-winter hanging in a nazi death-camp.
now i could get rude but i won’t, that’s not my style ‘cept when i’m angry. for example, i could reply to your incredibly witty remark about dutch fingers in dykes “wasn’t me! must have been some other dutch guy who had his finger in your moms!” but that wouldn’t just be rude, it would be cheap and easy. besides, i’m sure your mother just like my mom is a very sweet nice lady who deserves all the respect she gets… respect for women is a very important thing for me, just like my good irish friend paul i always try to be a gentleman, something joran van de sloot obviously doesn’t understand so indeed he is now rotting away in a peruvian jail…
now, irony isn’t a part of your repertoire, if it was you would’ve understand that that was precisely the reason why i gave that link but that’s ok…
if you didn’t look the bill maher docu that’s too bad, he’s in no way as funny and witty as the great bill hicks was but he was right on point with this docu, specially those interviews in and around the vatican that really prove your words to be quiet false.
if the bill hicks link went a little bit over your head that’s understandable but that would also be too bad, it might (forgive me the pun) enlighten you a bit…
i do enjoy the trading of insults, keeps one sharp but you really have to step up a bit, fingers in dykes, tulips, windmills and even splintery wooden shoes up the behind just won’t do! but you know what they say, practise makes perfect!in closing in would like to give you another (very good) link:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3556960/Jesus_Camp_%282006%29_-_on_evangelical_christians_in_USA
wishing you a nice day and nice dreams
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Madras- is it me or are they all pretty much cut from the same cloth? @Madrotter- It is through the simplest minds that God speaks clearest as St. Bernadette of Lourdes would be an example. I think she convinced more than a few atheist of God’s existence. P.S., I am still wondering why you posted earlier a criticism at those who were pasting links and not talking to each other?
P.s., You seem to want to drag me into a mud slinging contest but I think its just better to stick to the issues at hand don’t you? 🙂 -
Ah Patrick, no one denies nor should should deny you right to stand in the corner in the face of the overwhelming data in the support of evolution whilst stamping you feet screaming “does not”.
However, it is more than a little sneaky (ok downright dishonest) to try an claim Einstein as a supporter of creationism.
Here’s a couple fo quotes from the man himself for you to ponder..
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists…not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.
the man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events — provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equality for social or moral religion. (As quoted in Jammer 1999:80)
None of the above should stop you believing in flying teapots or horned creatures, flying horses or people turning to salt however have the decency not to misquote others in support of your own delusions. 🙂
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@Oigal-what in God’s creation is your point about Einstein? (Yes intended) 😉 if I got this straight your twist is that my God in sky isn’t the same God in the sky as Einstein’s, so his believing their was intelligence behind creation, isn’t the same as my saying Einstein believed in intelligent design theory?
Well how can anyone argue about that kind of logic? Ha ha ha! -
Oh My Patrick..Only you could come up with that convoluted piece of logic..
Do some very basic research on the guy please…Einstein did indeed say that God does not play dice, his statement had nothing to do with evolution. Einstein was commenting to the nature of quantum mechanics in a discussion (dispute) of the theory with physicists Niels Bohr. It was a throwaway comment as any reading of further Einsteinisms will attest. Further Far from making him a creationist, Einstein’s conviction that “God does not play dice” was the basis for an equal conviction on his part that no god intervenes in the history of the universe…yet again ..sigh..he completely refutes the idea..
the man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events — provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equality for social or moral religion
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@Oigal your position presently is that even though Einstein can admit’s there is some kind of Super intelligence behind the design and creation of the Universe, he just cannot fathom that such a superior intelligence could ever relate or want to relate to humans. Further, even though this Super-intelligence made all he is only interested in maintaining the system to keep it working but could care less about the living things he created because they are insignificant creatures and therefore irrelevant to their creator? My question to you is, isn’t Einstein’s belief in a Super Creator the same as someone else saying that God created the Universe? (Note here God and Super Intelligence equate to the same thing right)? Your in a difficult situation Oigal and the proper chess term is “CHECK-MATE” 🙂
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Except that Einstein isn’t saying he believes in a “Super Creator.” He said he believes in Spinoza’s god. That’s not god-the-intelligent-and-conscious-designer-of-the-universe, it’s god-as-the-universe.
So much for:
Your in a difficult situation Oigal and the proper chess term is “CHECK-MATE”
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@Odinius – ha ha ha its still check mate because you can’t have it both ways as there is either a creator or not? There is either creative design or random chance? Eistein already dismissed random chance as being impossible so we are now left with Creative Design by a Superior Intelligence 🙂
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You said “creator,” not Einstein.
I guess you’ll have to add a basic chess primer to that reading list, Patrick.
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I agree with you on one point Patrick, mud-slinging isn’t going to get us anywhere (although I quiet enjoy it) but it irritates me when so much of the discussions on the net and in the real world are about religion while in my opinion those discussions should be about us, the planet and the state we/it are in and the direction this is all going.
Check=mate? not by a long shot!
Who/what created the creator?
I’m sure you’ll come up with some poof!magic cloud answer to that one…
Richard Dawkins gets a lot of heat for being arrogant but I don’t think he’s arrogant, I think he’s tired and sick of just that point, that we are spending so much energy on something that’s so irrelevant and de-bunked as religion instead of making this place a little better.
And I’m tired and irritated of it too. Here we are, living in Indonesia and those of us who have been here long enough have seen how this country is going down the drain, is being stolen empty, how more and more people are falling into poverty and misery, how there isn’t a road in the country left that isn’t damaged almost beyond repair and folks dying in horrible accidents because of it. How the power in this country is in the hands of a bunch of no-talent thieves who have no vision, no sense of shame and how easily they make use of religion and the media to keep things in their favor. The same can be said of many countries and I’m sick to the stomach because of it…I was born in ’65, grew up on Star trek and all the talk about how great things were going to be while seeing the horrific pictures of the Vietnam war on tv. You can still see those same pictures but not on tv anymore, the Vietnamese are now Aghans, Iraqi’s, Papuan’s, African’s and again, I’m sick, sick, sick to the stomach because of it…
In my humble opinion it is you and your ilk that are just distracting a lot of us from the real issues at hand, polution, the squandering of resources, poverty, the rise of new diseases, over-population, war…
And now it’s time to go to bed….
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Religious people are often at the forefront of charity and helping the world’s poorest, though. Religion, as I see it, is something that can be channeled creatively or destructively, depending on the human beings involved.
Dawkins is wrong, in my book, because of his extreme and, let’s be honest here, fundamentalist attitude towards religion. In that sense, he’s simultaneously the inverse and analog of the “dogmatic true believer.”
Personally, I think the world needs to move beyond the discussion of religions “winning” or “losing” anything, and admit that it’s a matter of personal faith and conviction. If someone’s right, we will all find out in the end. Until then, we should cease erecting barriers among us and concentrate efforts on improving our common human condition. This can be reconciled with every major religious teaching, as well as most non-religious philosophies–whether people approach this from a religious or non-religious perspective is, in my opinion, up to them. I know I have my path, and I respect those of others, provided they don’t try to force theirs on me.
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sure, i cannot disagree with you there odinius, i work for a catholic organisation and the work these people do is amazing. it’s these lengthy “my religion is the only right one” discussions that go no where that irritate the hell out of me…
love dawkins myself, saw one of the episodes of that series he did and laughed the whole while, where they put these folks, i forget what you call ’em in english, the ones that search for water with a twig were put to the test failing miserably, where he was interviewed by one of those paranormal talk to the dead types who said “i see your father next to you, why do you not have his picture on you” and he said, well, maybe because he’s still coming to my house every week, priceless….
i don’t hate religion, like i’ve said before, it’s all up to you what you wish to believe and it’s private, i just think it’s often being mis-used and often standing in the way of progress.as an unbeliever i’ve saved money for quiet a few years and was able to pay for the haj to mekkah for my parents in law which i’m sure was the high point in their lives and i loved doing it…
patrick, who probably is a nice guy sometimes gets my goat with his smugness and hollow hahaha’s while actually spouting nonsense, that’s all….that and maybe the fact that i’ve been staying in a dreadful hospitalroom with my wife for the past week because of an incredibly heavy child-delivery…. an 8 pound boy coming out of a petite indonesian woman is not a nice thing to experience i can tell you that…
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@odinus – post 114 (you wrote) means what exactly?
Post 116 I agreed with large parts of it and I will try to remember to do my best to be more humble and magnanimous in the future. Please remember that God gives you free will in your life but just in case He also sends people to help you find your way. Just a matter of recognizing who they are 🙂@Maddrotter – The UN has been trying to save the world for 65 years without God and may I add without much luck. Just saw an article criticing the UNs inability to properly control the Congo as woman continue to be brutally raped in record numbers. This is happening despite the billions of dollars that the UN spent on stationing peace keeping troop there for years. So blaming all on God or religion seems a bit unfair. As Odinius rightfully pointed out religious affiliated groups have been in the forefront of the fight to bring relief to impoverished people in some of the most difficult conditions imaginable and too often at the cost of their own lives.
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@lairedion-it seems no matter what topic I find myself here at IM there you are as my adversary. Oh you have been around awhile so you do remember that I have commented on many other topics. Now I am quite busy and with limited time a little more selective to topics of interest.