Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Patrick says:
Below is part of a news story about a 12 year old American genius named Jacob Barnett (who is mildly autistic). Believe it or not he is asking questions that are challenging theories presented by scientists including Albert Einstein. The following was excerpted from an article in Indystar.com and was written by Dan McFeely. The young genius disputes the Big Bang Theory and provides his reasons. If nothing else it is a facinating read and if he is correct where does that leave Evolution Theory?
“Thinking big is what he does
Meanwhile, Jake is moving on to his next challenge: proving that the big-bang theory, the event some think led to the formation of the universe, is, well, wrong.Wrong?
He explains.
“There are two different types of when stars end. When the little stars die, it’s just like a small poof. They just turn into a planetary nebula. But the big ones, above 1.4 solar masses, blow up in one giant explosion, a supernova,” Jake said. “What it does, is, in larger stars there is a larger mass, and it can fuse higher elements because it’s more dense.”
OK . . . trying to follow you.
“So you get all the elements, all the different materials, from those bigger stars. The little stars, they just make hydrogen and helium, and when they blow up, all the carbon that remains in them is just in the white dwarf; it never really comes off.
“So, um, in the big-bang theory, what they do is, there is this big explosion and there is all this temperature going off and the temperature decreases really rapidly because it’s really big. The other day I calculated, they have this period where they suppose the hydrogen and helium were created, and, um, I don’t care about the hydrogen and helium, but I thought, wouldn’t there have to be some sort of carbon?”
He could go on and on.
And he did.
“Otherwise, the carbon would have to be coming out of the stars and hence the Earth, made mostly of carbon, we wouldn’t be here. So I calculated, the time it would take to create 2 percent of the carbon in the universe, it would actually have to be several micro-seconds. Or a couple of nano-seconds, or something like that. An extremely small period of time. Like faster than a snap. That isn’t gonna happen.”
“Because of that,” he continued, “that means that the world would have never been created because none of the carbon would have been given 7 billion years to fuse together. We’d have to be 21 billion years old . . . and that would just screw everything up.”
So, we had to ask.
If not the big bang, then how did the universe come about?
“I’m still working on that,” he said. “I have an idea, but . . . I’m still working out the details.”
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Well that’s it then Patrick, I am convinced the earth is 6000 years old 🙂 only question is who made God? You guys do so make my day..
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Oh, Do tell me you want to get into picking flaws in theories…please! Can we start with the seven days bit and move onto Cain and Abel ….please it will be so much fun..
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@Oigal – It must be utterly demoralizing for you to realize that everything you believed was absolutely true yesterday is now in serious doubt today. Don’t despair though because our God is a forgiving God who will welcome you with open arms 🙂
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realest says:
Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
Time literally stopped before this verse so that makes the Earth more than 6000 years old. Stop getting excited over knowing nothing. Thanks!!
Sorry … not gonna discuss anything beyond the age of the Earth. (ever wonder why some people just love to insult things they don’t know and proclaim themselves as experts by reading a few wikis) -
Really time literally stopped did it? Thanks that explains everything, thanks for coming..
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Thanks Patrick, I have seen enough of your forgiving God in Japan for instance. You can keep him.
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Ah yes, “Let there be light” on the first day of course we didn’t actually produce light emitting objects until the fourth day (sun, stars etc) but hey as long as it works. We then move on to two producing two great lights one for the day and one for the night. Some pesky people may point out perhaps he should have known that the Moon does not produce light but reflects it….
Now back to you Patrick, see the trouble I have in accepting the concept of your all forgiving God, is she is such a blood thirsty bitch. To use the latest NATURAL disaster she was 1. Powerless to do anything about it and so much for the omni one then, 2. Did not care or enjoyed it aka blood thirsty, 3. Does not exist except in people’s vivid and horrific nightmares.
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@Oigal – As you may know, there are many Christians that view much of the bible metaphorically as not all passages should be taken literally. We acknowledge that we don’t know the exact time the earth was created and how long time has existed.
Your concern that God is blood thirsty is that you wish to place the blame on God whenever a child is killed by any disaster or accident or for any reason? My understanding from reading Job is that God has created a world where he allows these things to happen. True, as you have pointed out in the past God doesn’t really explain why He does things but He does say that humans cannot possibly comprehend all that God can so therefore he doesnt have to answer to man. However, through suffering man can experience profound spiritual growth leading to greater good in the world. Through suffering man can be drawn closer to God as he seeks God’s presence in his life to provide meaning and hope. One example, I recall reading awhile back, involved the little girl who during the Vietnam War was badly burned by Napalm during an American bombing raid. You may recall, that she was screaming and running down a highway naked with burns over 70% of her body when she was photographed by a journalist. The picture was circulated all over the world and brought on a such tremendous response of repulsion from the public that it was credited with helping end the war. The photo later went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. Some years after the war the girl was found and interviewed and she said that God had placed her in that situation knowing that her suffering would bring about a profound change in attitudes toward the Vietnam War and indeed it did. She had become later in her life a convert to Christianity.
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Nice story Patrick and nice if she believes that. Of course, wouldn’t a less blood thirsty God not demand so many sacrifices, what was wrong with old Angels of Mons ploy?
Sorry Patrick, the concept remains a poor attempt for humans to explain things they have yet to understand and every day those unexplainable things become less forever driving the diety into the ever receding dark corners.
I really dont see why some gets so uptight about Atheism tho. It is always amusing to watch the foaming and frothing personal abuse because someone actually does not buy ..you must believe because GOD said so line. After all you have dimissed all previous Gods and we have just taken it one step futher and believe in one less God than you do.
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Lairedion says:
I really dont see why some gets so uptight about Atheism tho.
Because deep down they’re afraid their belief system turns out to be the fairy tale it actually is.
@Oigal – It must be utterly demoralizing for you to realize that everything you believed was absolutely true yesterday is now in serious doubt today
If this 12 year old kid’s theory is more plausible then this would be sensational and exciting, certainly not demoralizing. That’s the beauty of science. It’s all theory which needs to be proven over and over again and subsequently there’s always room for error.
So, we had to ask.
If not the big bang, then how did the universe come about?
“I’m still working on that,” he said. “I have an idea, but . . . I’m still working out the details.”
Would be laughing my socks off if he comes up with creationism.
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@Lairedion – Why do thing continuously fly past you above your head? Is it a miracle or are you just missing something? What this 12 year old boy is showing is the mathematical improbability that the “Big Bang Theory” could have occurred. He may be only 12 but already they equate his mathematics knowledge at being on a doctorate level. His math IQ is said to be higher than Einstein’s. Yes, you would be laughing your mismatched sox off because if the “Big Bang” did not happen then something even more extraordinary must have created the Earth and the rest of the Universe.
@Oigal – Yes, you have the right to choose God or not choose Him as that is the whole concept of “Free Will” that God gave man as a gift 🙂
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It’s really difficult to explain that the concept of God is not equivalent to your own personal genie. The ‘pauper’ strawman would always declare that if a million dollar would fall from the sky, much of it would go to the needy … disproven by the fact that the only donations lottery winners hand out are taxes. Similarly compared to an average Joe endowed with absolute divine power; what happens if two hundred million people shorted the Nikkei with their pension funds while the other 200 million had their livelihood in the country ? Each side has their own conflicted interest and after the blood, spit, sweat, shit and all that arguments …. the question remains: “Hell, who voted this Joe into power and made him boss?”.
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Actually Patrick, there is plenty on the internet that demonstrates that the kids theories need a lot more work yet, interesting and clever as he may be. I could cut and paste reams but that’s a waste of time, its there if you wish to Google it. I think I will stick with the balance of probabilities if you don’t mind rather than the mystical. No matter how you try and spin it, the mystical theory always collapses when you get to the Who Made God as the logical extension of
even more extraordinary must have created the Earth and the rest of the Universe
Oh and if I may duck back to your story, granted that’s a nice one but hardly proves GOD for every story like that I could respond with literally thousands (millions, if one had the time) where people have died long, lingering, painful senseless deaths for no other reason that bad luck due to genetics or nature. The alternative is particularly nasty, uncaring and vicious deity.
Personally that’s why if anyone had it right about religion it was people like the Romans and Aztecs, whose gods had all the nasty vices that humans possess and didn’t tend to trot around with false labels like “merciful”
Oh and back to Genesis, Lot is one of my favorites when he refused to give up his Angels to the rampaging hordes but offered up his daughters instead.
Genesis 19:8
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes -
Obviously you conveniently left out the earlier verses. Why am i seriously not surprised at this ignorant paraphrasing?
Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
1. Lot was trying to prevent homosexuality. If you haven’t noticed, the word Sodomy is derived from the tale of the city of Sodom being destroyed for “unnatural” act.
2. Let me save both of us some time by answering your next few questions:
Question a) Why did Lot pimp his own daughters?
Answer a) The act of offering his daughters was to settle for a lesser sin. This verse also shows that it’s customary for women to have sex with any man for the sake of offsprings as seen in this verse:Genesis 19:31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth.
Proper rules for marriage wasn’t written until the time of Moses.
Question b) Why would any father offer their own daughters?
Question b) Im not even sure if it’s not consensual on their daughters’ part. After all, they made their dad drunk and slept with him:Genesis 19:32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
3. And again, im unwilling to play one of your deflection games and discuss another story because it became clear that your understanding of religion is superficial and nothing more than blind plagiarism from the numerous atheist sites available on Google. This reminded me of that ignorant idiot who made a bold claim that nowhere in the Bible says that eating pork is prohibited. I disproved that statement with an explicit verse, twerp deflected and somewhere along the lines you and your lackey ET ended up calling me a troll. Pretty funny since I was actually right, literally.
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Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
1. Lot was trying to prevent homosexuality. If you haven’t noticed, the word Sodomy is derived from the tale of the city of Sodom being destroyed for “unnatural” act
Actually no he wasn’t, according to the scripture he was trying to save the Angels (ok apparently they were guy (?) angels but which just makes it worse. One would think having angels visit was a good thing. Anyway interesting cure for homosexuality, the offering of your virgin daughters.
As for pig eating.
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. Genesis 9:3
but then again
Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the hare, and the coney; for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore, they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. Deuteronomy 14:7-8
That,s the best part about these stories they can be anything you want them to be
Who asked you to play? Spare us the sanctimonious outrage, what on earth did you expect to be discussed on a Atheist thread, free range eggs?. Do try and skip the personal stuff you are not good at it and I am sure ET was trying to flatter you by calling you a troll, he’s a much nicer fellow than me :-).
And no it was not the custom all over the earth to pimp your daughters or have father diddle his daughters before Moses came along…sheesh.
Oh and I am sorry I left some of the good bits out then..
what were you saying about ignorant paraphrasing..hows this then to follow on from you:19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. -
@Oigal – Ya I tend to agree that “the Kid’s theorries” likely do need some work but they are interesting, none the less, since he is asking questions others have never considered. Jacob is smart enough where he is already getting offers to work at think tanks in the USA. Also, it does make sense to me why many people would try to find fault with young Jacob’s theories as they go against the grain so to speak If he is right we both know then that theorries regarding Evolution and the Big Bang Theory go down the drain. As you can see allot of people have a vested interest for him not to succeed.
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nobody says:
oigal,
from my point of view, those parts you quoted were obviously added creatively by humans in latter era of judaism/christianity (not something originally in the scripture). How can a Perfect God choose such imperfect, sometimes sinful prophet to convey His messages? obviously he would’ve done some thorough background and moral screening of candidates for prophethood. Lot did not sleep with his daughter, according to the true story in the Qur’an. -
Nobody, I am afraid you will find those sorts of contradictions in any of the religious texts including yours despite what you are told about it being perfect and unchanged. In the final analysis, they remain a collection of myths, stories, some possibly true most obviously not and some just plain silly and all open to various misuse by those who use them to suit their own agendas be those evil or for good.
As a matter of interest contrary to our easily outraged friend’s opinion, the point I was making was to ET that whilst the Koran has any number of passages that some use as a call to mayhem and evil, the Christian Bible has just as many. The difference is generally speaking nothing more than the development of the rule of law to keep the fanatics in their dark corners where they belong.
Patrick, The difference between the ‘kids theories’ and the ‘texts’ is his theories will be questioned and peer reviewed same as Einstein. Blind faith and acceptance of the impossible will not suffice, as we all know questioning the faith is one thing that cannot be allowed in a house of cards. I stand confident what ever the result, the balance on probabilities won’t have me looking for the Easter Bunny or refuting the theory of evolution any time soon.
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@Oigal – “Blind faith and acceptence of the impossible will not suffice” Really? We have already demonstrated here in the past how scientists world wide have been guilty of following Evolutionary Theory to the exclusion of all other theories even though there are gaping holes that have never been filled despite scientist worldwide looking for answers that cannnot be answered to date. i.e., no example of any species being observed morphing into a seperate distinct species? Perhaps you have morphed into the Easter Bunny? Anyway, there is the House of Cards built around Evolution and its starting to collapse but Captain Oigal your the type who will go down with his ship rather than admit you are wrong 🙂
May I ask what exactly facinates you about the story of Lot? You seemed outraged by Lots behavior but why? What exactly is being conveyed here by the bible? You will recall before God went to destroy Sodom he told Abraham of his plan. He had also called Abraham his friend. It was Abraham who begged God to spare the city if he could find righteous men there. Abraham was well aware that his nephew and kinsmen were living in the city. God sent in the 2 angels and they sought out Lot and they warned him to take his family and leave. The angels were there to destroy the city for two reasons the first and foremost was the homsexual practices of the inhabitants. This was a serious crime against God’s plan for man and in earlier passages God called it an abomidation against Him. Lot would have known that and he could not have allowed two guests under his protection and care (Celestial beings) to be subjected to such sinfulness. This was perhaps a test for Lot to show his faithfulness and righteousness before God similar as his uncle Abraham was to do later when he was asked to sacrifice his son? And just as God had no intention of allowing Abraham to kill his son He had no intention of allowing Lot’s daughters to be handed over to the crowd. By the way, it is the mob of men who reject Lot’s offer as they lust for the male angels. Just as Lot proves his righteousness ,the crowd proves its guilt, and it is at this point that the Angels step in and blind all the inhabitants except Lot and his family. Lot is then warned to take his family and flee and not to turn around which Lot’s wife does and she is instantly turned into a pillar of salt. It is reasoned from the account that Lot’s wife was perhaps sinful in her ways. By the way the second reason for the inhabitants were being destroyed was for their notorious inhospiatlity to strangers and visitors as demonstrated above.
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Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”Genesis 19:8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
The mob doesn’t know they’re angels and obviously you can’t get that Lot was trying to prevent homosexuality even if the man himself got up from his grave and hammer it into your thick skull.
That,s the best part about these stories they can be anything you want them to be
The best part about these stories is standing up for an ignorant idiot who’s obviously wrong on claiming there are no verse in the Bible that says eating pigs is prohibited.
Who asked you to play? Spare us the sanctimonious outrage, what on earth did you expect to be discussed on a Atheist thread, free range eggs?. Do try and skip the personal stuff you are not good at it and I am sure ET was trying to flatter you by calling you a troll, he’s a much nicer fellow than me 🙂 .
Both of you should stop sucking each other’s dicks and get a room. I dont understand why you need to paraphrase and be wrong when there are so many other verses one can pick from war crimes to betrayal.
Get up one morning, read their daily atheist feed, took a minute and say duh looks good. I think im gonna sound like a genius by posting this on the atheist thread. It doesn’t tage a genius to see that, unlike madrotter, you’re obviously too lazy to confirm by reading whole parts.Oh and I am sorry I left some of the good bits out then..
what were you saying about ignorant paraphrasing..hows this then to follow on from you:19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.Actually I mentioned that already on my previous post when I questioned the morality of Lot’s daughters:
Question b) Im not even sure if it’s not consensual on their daughters’ part. After all, they made their dad drunk and slept with him:
Genesis 19:32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
Nice try though. Thanks for failing once again.
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ET says:
Patrick
If not the big bang, then how did the universe come about?
The ‘big bang’ may be a misleading term because it presumes to be something like a one-time explosion that happened in a singularity (whatever that may be). More refined theories are being developed now which hypothesize that before the ‘coming into being’ of our present universe there were and are other universes that expand and contract in a perpetual cycle of time/space ‘creation‘. Our universe isn’t necessarily unique and may well be a part of something ‘Bigger’.
Time and space are nothing more than the coordinates by which we describe our environment. In a broader perspective this environment is actually not a static one but has the character of an event or a boxed-in ‘happening’ which doesn’t exclude the existence of other ‘happenings’ or universes existing in different dimensions or space/time frameworks. Time and space are in itself relative to each other whereas time as we and the rest of nature experience it is only a function of the capacity to memorize past events and their extrapolation into a supposed future. Take memory away and all what is left is a stream of quantum particles devoid of any meaning.
These theories however don’t exclude the presence of a ‘spiritual’ component. For this I refer to the Jesuit philosopher, geologist and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who in his book The Phenomenon of Man abandoned traditional interpretations of creation in the Book of Genesis in favor of a less strict interpretation. This non-PC position was opposed by his church superiors and some of his work was denied publication during his lifetime by the Roman Holy Office. He postulates that existence consists of 2 kinds of energy, ‘tangential energy’ or the natural component and ‘radial energy’ or the spiritual component. The funny thing is that this theory shows remarkable parallels with the ancient Indian-Hindu Samkhya philosophy which speaks of 2 eternal uncreated components, Prakrti or the principle at the basis of the natural world and Purusha, the spiritual component. Whether Teilhard found his inspiration in this ancient philosophy I haven’t been able to detect but I wouldn’t be surprised because as a paleontologist he lived for a long time in the Far East where he took part in the discovery of both Piltdown Man and Peking Man.
My point is only to show that before we attribute the creation of our universe arbitrarily to the willful creative act of a supernatural being there are numerous other possibilities to investigate.
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The Big Bang theory is conjectural, it’s not a well-established fact. Little Jacob is practicing science here. He took a look at this theory and perhaps found some fundamental flaws. Nothing strange happening here. Normal science in action because theories need to be proven over and over again and there’s always room for error and Jacob Barnett’s theory won’t be an exception either
Believers like to present creationism as an explanation for the origins of life but it is belief, not science. In science people are observing and testing natural phenomena. Subsequently a theory is constructed to explain these phenomena. Creationism is based on dogma from religious scripts. Therefore any discussion between the two is void and useless.
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Lairedion
Normal science in action because theories need to be proven over and over again and there’s always room for error
Creationism is based on dogma from religious scripts. Therefore any discussion between the two is void and useless.
Indeed. Here it is represented as a flow-chart.
But one must also admit that science itself isn’t always free from dogmatic tendencies, especially when funding for research is involved. Instead of science it then becomes ideology. Examples of this are ‘climate change’, the ‘out of Africa’ theory and, why not, ‘evolutionism’ itself. New discoveries may shed an entire new light on what has become standard scientific certainty. Newton’s Principia Mathematica are still valid but quantum physics have proven that his Principia couldn’t be applied in the subatomic realm.
I would say that the main characteristics of real science are vigilant skepticism, an open mind capable of thinking outside the box and the courage to accept that the truth isn’t always what we expect it to be. -
ET,
Thanks for the chart. And nothing more to add on your comment. It’s exactly the way I see it.
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As I said realist your immature personal attacks demean and your position more than anything else..you aren’t worth further replies…as you have told before grow up little one.
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nothing spells immature more clearly than one adamantly denying something that’s written explicitly in black and white.
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YAWN 🙂
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that’s mature …. yeah
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@Oigal – yes I agree with you that I should keep praying as that is good for the soul. Oh! Poor thing you haven’t lost your soul have you? Perhaps the Easter Bunny will help you find your way? Keep on hopping dude!! wkwkwkwkwkwkwkwk