Argument Topics
Sep 1st, 2008, in Asides, by PatungThe next funny installment of Purba vs various people, Achmad’s Oigal obsession, East Timor, Batam, plenty of other stuff…cut from Dating Girls thread.
133 Comments on “Argument Topics”
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Purba Negoro says:
Pak Akhmad can do as he pleezes
Lareidon- I think I know a little better about my own language, thank-you-
I don’t switch to the much beloved “Bule-condescension mode” and lecture you on English do I?But thank-you for taking up the good fight and pointing out how Aussie spermwhales are all blowhole, love to blow hard but can’t take a few barbs without turning into a mad Moby Dick.
Larei-
I suggest you go subjugate your conjunctive verbs or play about with your rounded dipthongs. I hope it culminates in the superlative -
Lairedion says:
PN said:
Lareidon- I think I know a little better about my own language, thank-you-
Indonesian is also my own language. I only started learning to speak Dutch at age 11.
Please feel free to lecture me anytime anywhere but your thanks are appreciated.
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timdog says:
Well Lairedion, as long as you’re getting a bit of a broader spread of news from other sources, all is well…
“News values” are strange and troubling things, all pervasive and exerting a powerful effect on what we see, hear, know and think… Silly people babble on about crude media conspiracy theories (“there was a fifth plane, man – that doesn’t get reported, and how come the mainstream media doesn’t report that no Jews went to work in Manhattan on the morning of 9/11? Hey man, that’s screwed up… pass me that bong/Jihadi training manual…”) but the truth is we all come under the influence of much less crude media trickery…
There is of course the fairly basic stuff: Paper A reports everything negative they can find about Barak Obama and only prints fluff about McCain; Paper B does the exact opposite.
But a media outlet’s general political tone is often less brutally obvious. When I return to the UK after a long period away and pick up a copy of the Times (a “serious” newspaper) I am always flabbergasted by the utterly poisonous nature of much of its reporting, especially when it comes to its rampant hatred of the BBC, and its fiery support of Israel. And when I pick up the Guardian for the first time in a while, its hand-wringing liberalism seems almost a caricature of itself… but a month down the line, reading both papers several times a week, I’ve become inured; I notice the tone less and less, until I’m not aware of it at all (perhaps that’s what’s happened to my view of IM)…Then there are little things, like editorial policy about names – like the way the BBC uses “Burma” instead of Myanmar; the way that Fox insists on Barak Hussein Obama, and the Jakarta Post earnestly sticks to “former dictator Soeharto” rather than “former president”. It might not seem significant, but it is…
Then there’s what seems at first glance more innocent – like the way a well-intentioned international news editor might decide that as China is a rising superpower, we should have lots of stories about China. Does that mean that the story from Tahiti,/Timor/Turkmenistan that gets spiked in favour of another China piece is really less important?
Then down the scale still further, we’re all at the mercy of the duty editor slapping up pieces from the wire service who decides that “Tension with Russia over Georgia” will make a good page lead, while “Thailand on the brink” will do for a 50-word n.i.b. sidebar…Then of course, we each have our own personal “news values”. As we skim across pages of newsprint we gravitate to the stories that interest us, that have a connection to a place or an issue with which we are involved. I don’t read the sports pages; I very lightly skim the business pages, and probably won’t pay much attention to a piece about development in Peru. But some piece about the political chaos in Pakistan – I’m on it like a hawk…
Faced with a newsbar on an MSN homepage featuring three stories – “Obama poll lead narrows”, “Fresh violence in Darfur” and “Britney and Paris in Lesbian romp” different people gravitate in different directions…Now that’s fine, but it leads to problems when you come to an outlet like Indonesia Matters, culling stories second-hand from the already “news value”-addled frontline press…
So you get a story lifted from Antara about, say, child abuse in a religious school in Surabaya. Now, that’s already gone through one mesh of general news values to make it to the Antara pages; to reach its prominent position on IM it has to slip through (with all due respect) the very narrow channel of Mr Patung’s own personal news values. What about the other – equally important – news stories that flanked it on Antara? why did they slip through the net.To illustrate, after three minutes of googling, I launch a new website:
India Matters
This website is concerned with “cultural change” in IndiaNEWS
A mob of rampaging Hindu fundamentalists in Orissa has attacked and burnt a Christian orphanage, killing a woman
Source: The Hindustan Times
hindustantimesUntouchables are being left to fend for themselves in the floodwaters of Bihar while high-caste locals are rescued.
Source: The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/india.naturaldisastersMobs from Extremist Hindu organisation the VHP have attacked Muslim homes and businesses in Jammu
Source: The Daily Times
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C08%5C07%5Cstory_7-8-2008_pg7_22That’s all news from the last couple of weeks; it all happened, but it’s passed through some pretty extreme sets of news values to get here, and is the impression it might create for someone knowing very little of India accurate? true? a good thing? representative? Who the f*ck knows, but I think not…
Now, Indonesia Matters makes no claims to be an authoritative, balanced news website run with the pure intention of providing information. Of course it doesn’t; it’s a discussion forum and the rowdier the discussion the better. And there are, to be fair, some (slightly disingenuous) disclaimers about its aims and subject matter in the “about” section. But there IS a column of genuine “news” stories, entitled “news” down the left-hand side of the page, and there’s no big healthwarning across the banner for anyone stumbling across the page by accident…
This is my one serious problem with this site – for any newcomer who happens upon it (and it does pretty well in the google searches) who is not yet well versed in, shall we say, Indonesian matters, (an interested tourist perhaps, or a newly arrived or prospective foreign resident), the image it presents of the nation is somewhat skewed.That’s why I was concerned for your news-awareness well-being Lairedion, but it seems I have nothing to worry about as you are filling in the gaps elsewhere 😉
As for my vocabulary – words, big ones, small ones, clean ones, filthydirty ones, are my currency – so f*cking what?
Incidentally, the reason I don’t contribute anything on the Indonesian language threads here is precisely because my Indonesian vocabulary doesn’t run to words like “nefarious”. I could certainly drop banal two-sentence nuggets about the evils of all religion into discussions of burnt churches in clunking Indonesian that any earnest backpacker who has spent 2 months on Gili Trawangan with a phrasebook and a local drugdealer could understand, but that AIN’T MY STLYE BROTHER…PS – Patung, please don’t take my above comments about this site as an insult (I’m sure you won’t); I do like Indonesia Matters, I think you do a great job, and enjoy it very much, and if its “news values” were entirely honourable, it wouldn’t be anywhere near as much fun…
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Timdog,
Whew ! How ’bout at executive summary ? ; P
As for “news values,” perhaps what you mean is objectivity, accuracy, fairness and balance, ‘special emphasis on the first one.
It’s a recent invention, really, I think the New York Times pioneered in the 20th century. Before that newspapers were shameless bully pulpits. There’s still a little of that in the U.K. where they tend to be more honest about it. Don’t forget the London Times is now a Murdoch paper.
But I’d argue you’re fixated on newspapers, which are just part of a much bigger media landscape, including, of course, Blogs like this one. As for the checks and balances — well, it’s us. There’s been some great information that’s popped up.
The scary question is what happens as Western newspapers gradually fold. With 3,000 journalists in the U.S. sacked in the last couple of years, they’re becoming a pale shadow of their former selves. Fairfax, for example, is to lose 500 people.
Mr. Pateongs will be ok — coz the Indo Papers work on different economics.
@ Pak PN, no offence, Kawan !
@ AAB. Yes, as Alexander the Great swept through China, let us continue.
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Timdog and Pak Achmad
Hear, hear.Very good points.
It is very refreshing for some honesty for once- instead of this insidious Western PC self-censorship.Timdog highlights some excellent points. When it all boils down- the scum stuck to the pot is crude economics andf thier owner’s interests
Timdog- the BBC is known to have funding directly from the Foreign Office’s own Mi6 branch of the Foreign Intelligence Service.
Hence they constantly play games with Myanmar (Burma) Yangon (Rangoon) and Nawpidaw (does not exist according to BBC) in order to re-establish British Petroleum’s Burham Oil properties lst to nationalisation.
Remember all the wailing, gnashing of teeth and tearing of clohes about “pacificist Burmese monks”- conveniently in scarlet (the colour of martyrs)- though these are merely initiates- true monks where tamarind-coloured robes and their scalps are tanned, not reflective white, from years of baldness.And then all the hand-wringing about plucky underdog Georgia- who turned out to be the unprovoked military aggressor- then it was Blair-esque spin-job to whitewash the shoddy re-broadcasting of Mi6 press releases.
And Fox ahem “News”. Rather transparent Murdoch brown-nosing to chum Bush.
Last time I accidentally tuned onto it, I got tired of the loud, inane, talking heads and actually read the ticker. Their “breaking headlines” were hilarious.
“Johnnyt Jihad faces trial” “Palin’s daughter preggers”It mady me start thinking whether Colbert was now being spoofed by Fox.
Very amusing.
Jakarta Post is owned by the Chinese-owned media group that also prints Tempo.
They also print/own:Bali Post
Batam Post (Pulau Batam)
Indonesia Post
Indo Pos (Jakarta)
The Jakarta Post [In English]
Jawa Pos Daily News (Surabaya)
Kristiani Pos (Jakarta)
Poskota
Tabloid Mahasiswa Boulevard
Tempo InteractiveNotice a pattern yet? Yes- penny-dreadfuls to help brown nose to bules.
Jak Post is intended for the readership who’ll read Indonesian Tattler, Jakarta Kini, Prestige and all the other self-aggrandising Chinese crap- they love their shiny trinkets and baubles and oversized “Dynasty”-style hair you see.
Suara Merdeka and Republika are far far superior newspapers than the kitty-litter liner- Jak Post.
These two innovate by actually employing reporters who’ll turn up to a news-scene and not juist regurgitate the press-releases.
Never believe what you read, hm?
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timdog,
Your concern is appreciated and that’s a sincere reply. I was amazed you were really thinking IM was my main source of Indo news.
But I think you’re getting too emotional on this. Different people, different styles, different opinions. It has always been like this and always will be. If you’re upset with IM’s level and its comments perhaps you should follow Teng’s footsteps. It’s a free world bro’. Nobody is forcing you to read or comment here yet you’re hooked to this site like anybody else. To show this let me quote you from the Neighbourly Affairs thread after you came back from holiday:
Oh glory be! What fabulous stuff!
Just back from holiday and waaaaaay too much work to do this week to join in, but keep it up lads, keep it up…Sarcasm or not, it says it all, not? 😉
There will always be some dubious comments here but if Patung thinks it’s over the edge I’m sure he will moderate accordingly. I think many articles and some of the comments are truly informative and well-written, including your Surabaya Red Light District and NTB/NTT syncretism pieces.
As for the alleged skewed image of Indonesia, bad news is always damaging but these reports on terrorism, ethnic-religious conflicts, corruption etc. will find their way to foreign media anyway with or without the “help” of IM and its readership. Yet loads of people still want to visit Indonesia because of love for this nation, its nature and its people, including you my friend.
Brother timdog, I’m really looking forward to meet you in the next thread. 🙂
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PN,
I wouldn’t compare Jak Post with any of the Indonesian-language newspapers. Different targets (expats vs. WNI) and Indonesia is lacking an English-language newspaper on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. Perhaps Ross can start his own neo-con newspaper.
Thanks for referring to Suara Merdeka. I forgot to mention them as one of my sources. They have a very good, comprehensive website and I would recommend their Suara Warga section to anyone.
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Achmad – “news values” encompasses far more than old fashioned political colour and bias; it also takes in more “innocent” factors, the decisions that see one story given prominence over another, just because a guy with a hangover grabbing stories from the wire thinks it’s more newsworthy…
There’s an argument that the internet frees us from all this, but that’s nonsense; in a way the internet is even worse. All those online news sites are as beholden to news values as the good ol’ print media. And what’s crucial is this: when we read our Times, our Jakarta Post or whatever, even if we’re not particularly obsessed with the matter, we do have a vague awareness of that publication’s style, politics and outlook…
But when we’re scanning the internet, perhaps using google, for a story about, say, Indonesia, we’re unlikely to know the background of the site that we pull up, and unless we’re constantly in a state of near paranoia about “news values” we’re unlikely to stop and say, “Hmmmm, what informed the decision-making proccess that has led to this particular article being published here?”Lairedion – I didn’t really think you only got your news from IM (though your own personal news values are of course in play when you scan those other sites), but hang around here too much and it will skew your outlook a bit. Even me; spend too much time on IM and I’ll flinch at the sight of a jilbabbed lady on the street – is she some dark portent of impending doom? Is that guy with the skull cap and scrawny beard hunting for an Amadiyya to oppress?!!!?? Does the fact that they’ve painted that shopping mall green indicate that a rising tide of Islamist lunacy is about to sweep up all away???!?!? Shreeeeeeiiiiiikkkkk!!!!!!! 😉
I’ve got no problem with the level of the comments here; I like them, the site is great fun and the rough and tumble of it keeps me coming back. I’m glad you’re here too (and I guess you might be glad I’m here) – who else would I get to flame against every once in a while? Certainly not Shloka, whose batteringRam (gettit?!?!) approach is pretty dull after a while…
I just do have a slight concern about the site’s faintly malevolent effect on innocent passers-by who chance upon it in search of Indonesian news…Purely incidentally, according to their own figures, fifty percent of the Jakarta Post’s readership is Indonesian, and an expanding allegedly English-competant local market for whom English-Language publications are part of an aspirational lifestyle are the key demographic for the growing English-language media in Indonesia…
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timdog said:
I’m glad you’re here too (and I guess you might be glad I’m here) – who else would I get to flame against every once in a while?
😎
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I would just like to add that Lairedion has the key point here, if you are disturbed and offended by what makes it onto IM then your best option is to vote with your head and not login to see what some of our favourite punters are espousing on any particular day!
I have said many times that IM has that feel of slowing down as you go past the scene of an accident. You know you shouldn’t but you just cannot help yourself…
The beauty of IM for me is that there are some who come here to engage in serious and constructive debate and there are others who come here to inflame and see how many people they can piss off. It is a learning experience because if you are going to toss your hat into the ring then you most surely need to be informed. If you are not then there will definitely be another commenter who is informed and will pick you to pieces.
The informed and the ill-informed have a forum in IM in that they can express their views anonymously or otherwise. Some of our colleagues participate as more than one person as they bring along their alter egos as well.
The personal attacks can sometimes be a bit tiresome, but it comes with the territory. Develop a thick skin and get on with the job!
Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
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Timdog, well I kind of changed the front page a little and reduced the “news” emphasis, just to keep you happy, he he, although I’m sort of relieved to have just a generic “issues” category instead of too many subdivisions, there were always posts I couldn’t work out where to put, and although I don’t think it’s such a big deal if impressionable and/or ignorant people get the ‘wrong’ impression about the country from this little bitty website.
As for the selection of material, one part of me might want to say ‘guilty as charged’, to some extent, another part might want to protest, rummage through the archives and list all the posts which have nothing to do with Islam, or put Muslims in a good or at least neutral light, or which deal with non-Muslims (but this is Indonesia), and still another part will say I can only be bothered writing about things which interest or amuse me, most of what you see in Antara bores me stiff. The post about teachers sex abuse, actually I’ve often seen stories like that popup in my feed reader but ignored them because ordinary crime stories (even if they do occur in the wudlu of a musholla, just pointing that out, he he) I’m generally not interested in for the site, that post was a sort of sideswipe at some of the commenters on the Pedophiles thread who seemed to be suggesting that only westerners abuse children in Indonesia.
About the image captions, have to be in the right mood for them, I used to rather like the way the Economist did their captions, with dry humour, not sure if they’re still that way as haven’t looked at it in years, it started to really irritate me, I mean the writing/view of the world, not the captions…
Purba, I don’t much like the BBC either but they do mention the Burma capital sometimes.
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Oigal says:
“Appallling hyprocrisy” big call “L” considering what is written here and hyprocrisy is an artform for some many of the “peoples” representatives. Thanks for the award but I think I may he to spend some more time on the bench just yet before I take the award home.
Perhaps it just gets a bit boring for others with the multi page tirades from our english and oz pretend Javanese dominating each and every discussion (Bad enough with just Assmad playing that game, but like a lot of the life forms lower on the evolutionary scale, he has somehow self seeded a number of clones without the need of partner sex, the most boring of these being a ex brit military reject who is still sulking that the ozzies had no use for him as well).
Assmad..As previously discussed, in amongst you inane and uncaring remarks where nothing is beyond your “cheap verbal wank” you raise the odd intelligent point. However it is so tainted by the rest of your rubbish that personally I can’t normally can’t be bothered.
Shame really, it is interesting when people take somewhat extreme views of the same issue but outright lies (in this case not Assmad, who prefers the silly rather than the outright lie which is a reasonably effective defence to a weak agrument) degrade the whole debate to the max.
As a matter of interest, your point on OZ military would indeed make a interesting discussion particulary on the direction and structure for the future however this not the forum. To even suggest that Human Rights abuses are systematic and unaccountable in the oz defence force is just plain silly .
However, the internal role that the Indonesia “defence” force plays in human rights, poltics, public opinion, business beggars comparsion with any western defence force.
None denies that some rampant nutcases will always go over the edge, but instead of being accountable, here it seems that just looks good on your political CV.have fun..i do
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I still think you are Seksi, Mr. Patoengs.
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Patrick says:
@ Achmad – I read recently, that a poll indicated that 68% of American voters believed that the media was more problematic in the election process than even special interest groups and lobbyist. The main problem was that Americans were becoming tired of news organizations that shamelessly feed them biased stories meant to promote the candidates that the media supports at the expense of the opposition. Fox news has often been identified here by IM contributors but the problem cuts across the whole spectrum of political positions by the media and the recent hatchet job attempted against Gov. Sarah Palin is an indictment against the objectivity of more centrist and leftist news. This would include the “Big 3” ABC, NBC and CBS along with CNN. Many newspapers and periodicals are also been shown to be just as guilty and it was reported today that US News & World Report lost (due to cancelations) up to 5,000 subscribers because of their Palin article. The press and media in the USA presently have a real problem on their hands as they have lost their objectivity and therefore the confidence of the public.
If newspapers close down I don’t think they will be missed nearly as much as you think as more & more people are turning to the internet to get their news. I really don’t like to see anyone lose their job but new technologies and computer usage is making newspapers increasing obsolete. Reporters will have to do what many other people before them have dome in similar circumstances and that is to find a new line of work. Its sounds cold I know but that is how capitalism works and only the strongest and fittest survive in difficult times!
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Hi Oigal,
Didn’t suggest the Australian army transgressions were systematic. No was I playing gotcha (though you could be forgiven for thinking so).
I’m really interested in thoughtful Australian military opinions on the incident, particularly given the climate of the time. There seemed to be very much a sense that the Aussies were stepping in to right wrongs, mostly done by the Indonesian military.
Just interested how these incidents might be viewed internally. Can’t guarantee I won’t have a trollish turn in the future & warp the conversation though. 🙂
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Hi Patrick,
The problem is that mainstream media organizations spend the most money on gathering information. Most blogs feed off the mainstream media, including newspapers, tv, radio and magazines. Newspapers and magazines are the “cerebellum” or cerebral cortex if you like.
The Blogs are biting the hand that feeds them. Alot of bloggers sit there in their underwear, opining away, blissfully ignorant of what it takes to get the stories they love to bag so much.
Squeezing primary information out of people unwilling to give it takes work, sweat, and other qualities. It takes a lot more than just entering a phrase in Google Search.
It’s not a question of newspapers being perfect. I’d just still prefer to get my news from the New York Times than the Drudge Report, which is itself becoming respectable. There’s also accountability: powerful people give interviews to newspapers, but hardly any blogs. The fall of the mainstream media will be a free kick to the powerful.
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Andy says:
Achmad-It’s not a question of newspapers being perfect. I’d just still prefer to get my news from the New York Times than the Drudge Report, which is itself becoming respectable. There’s also accountability: powerful people give interviews to newspapers, but hardly any blogs. The fall of the mainstream media will be a free kick to the powerful.
I love reading Indonesians make these comments after they have already made outrageous, racist, defamatory comments as did our dear friend here. Achmad, put your money where your mouth is…Don’t say you love the NY Times more than the Murdoch rags when you post racist comments like you did 2 weeks ago (about pedophilia). Where did you get them? From which ultra nationalist rag did you read it in? Probably the same one that put the anti-Australian cartoon (jiggy jiggy with the foreign minister) on the cover of their paper after the Papuans tried to migrate to Australia.
What a disgrace you are to your people Mr Achmad…..Apologise to Australia and the rest of the free world now you pathetic little worm..
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Andy,
I said I’d preferto get my news from the NYT than the drudge report. I’ll qualify. I prefer to get it from seasoned professionals, rather than internet ranters, like you. Didn’t say anything about the Murdoch rags, but he does employ some good journalists.
As for the pedophilia references, they were from the SMH — a fairfax paper. But the Australian (a Murdoch paper), covered the cases as well. As John Lennon said of the Beatles, I don’t represent anyone, just me.
I think Indonesia’s part of the free world, now, me old chum. Higher voter participation rates than the U.S.
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Mets says:
@ all – I can say testosterones are running high on this thread!!!
What was the original argument again ??**@@!! LOL
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What was the original argument again ??**@@!! LOL
mmmmm arguments
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@ Andy – LOL…I just dont have the energy to argue for the sake of arguing ha ha ha !!
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@ Mets, Andy, & above all Mr. Patoengs,
Thank you for being very Seksi !
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Unlike Indonesia, the Australia Military has virtually no political influence in Australia (as it should be), therefore your question is basically moot. Were the majority of UN forces shocked at the disregard for human life and trail of destruction left behind..yes and often sickened by it but to wish to attribute anything more than “doing their job as best they could” would be attributing a Indonesian Military Mindset that does not generally exist elsewhere (With some notable exceptions).
Funnily enough, despite the xeno-nationalists opinion that it was all an Australian Plot to get the oil (silly really, the deal was better under the Indonesian Government arrangment) the Indonesian Government (Habbie…go figure) out smarted Australian and the rest of the world. The tide had turned well and truely against Indonesia in regard to Tim Tim, it was not a matter of if the province was to be lost but when.
Howard proposed a ten year time frame, Habbie ok’d the referendum and saved Indonesia gaz-millions of Infrastruture Rp and handed the west yet another forever ongoing problem.
Despite your fairly lame attempts at allegations of mistreatment of Militia by Oz and other western forces again what is amazing is not that it did not happen but that it was not commonplace. It speaks volumes of the for the professionlism of the military involved that “bush justice” was not delivered after these young people witnessed themselves the brutality inflicted upon innocent people including women and children by a bunch of murderous and sponsored thugs.
I should add here that it was not just the pro-indonesia militia that acted like animals here. Your average citizen was on a hiding to nothing no matter what side he/she supported. What was stunning then and stunning now is the abject failure of the authorities to do anything about it (or to give a damn).
The seperation should never should have happened but when was always going to. When provinces and their people are treated like serfs that exist to serve a small (in fact not so small), obnoxious section of the wider nation.
What is surprising is more provinces have not followed suit, for a lot of the provinces has anything really changed since the last bunch of colonial rulers were here? It would be an absolute disaster for Indonesia to lose more provinces, for Indonesia and the region. Yet the some seem hell bent on ignoring the fine sentiments of Indepenence in favour a culture of intimidation and fear that is driving other ethnic groups, religions and provinces down a path from which only bloodshed can result. And the silent majority..are just that.
Has anything really changed in 60 years.
Don’t Cry for Me East Timor ..indeed!
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
sigh .. Oigal
Jilted but don’t know why. Perhaps blackie don’t like gung-ho attitude and double dipping approach.
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Mr Patung – AHAH! A victory for the politically correct bule! Delighted was I on discovering that the wicked – truly wicked I tell you! – term “news” had been removed from the site, thus rendering its evil, ever-spreading influence on the entire internet harmless…
Now that I have you eating from the palm of my hand, I must insist on fair-trade, vegan halal snacks being made available to all posters (but absolutely NOT during daylight hours at the moment, obviously – we have to be culturally sensitive you know). After that I must insist, for the same reasons of cultural sensitivity, that all female posters have the option (ie. obligation) of apearing jilbabbed in their avatar pic, and I request that all the naughty discussions of dangdut singers and pop stars be shut down until after Lebaran… We simply must be sensitive to other peoples’ culture…
Yes, I have you eating from the palm of my hand – the left hand, naturally… wait a minute – is that culturally sensitive? Better make it the right hand… but right??? eeeeerrrr! Mr Patung, in the name of cultural sensitivity, I must insist on both my right and left hands being removed by a knife-wielding beardie versed in Shariah law. It is essential in the name of cultural sensitivity…And I made a donation too (am I the first person?)… It would have been bigger, but I’m a bit financially stretched at the moment. Don’t spend it all on beer – well, you can spend it on beer if you want, but make sure it’s fair trade halal beer…
Love and hugs
Timdog…PS – Antara is dull as ditchwater. However, being deathly boring is usually a sign that a particular news outlet probably has pretty “clean” news values. All of which begs the question: when we look for news, are we really looking for news, or merely entertaintment and a confirmation/challenge to our own opinions?
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Um, Oigal, thanks for the reply. But what you’ve said is well know. On the Australian transgressions question, you’ve dodged it.
Ask your army mates, for example. The S.A.S. officer was tried for kicking bodies. Some other officers wouldn’t testify. But East Timor aside, in Vietnam, for example, the Aussie military practice of taking war trophies was well known.
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Pak Achmad,
I take no pleasure in seeing another learned and wise fellow country man belting the hell out of Bule Ignoramus. Andy was pushed too far over the edge and with his last dying breath venom was spewed out, calling all Indon women ‘whores’.
Oigal was cornered and badly bruised, he had nothing more to add, neither is he going to reveal what he knew. Sunlight shines brightly on those who value truth. Let’s not shame him further. Remember European carps live in murky Murray water. They die hard even buried in mud.
Merdeka!
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ok, AAB.
Merdeka !
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AAB, you racist SOB. Why do you always like to misquote me to all and sundry. Where did I say ‘all Indonesian women are whores’. You people always cry out ‘evidence’ and when we present it to you on a silver platter you accuse it of being biased western press. So you and Achmad and all your other pathetic, racist worms crawl into your cocoons and close your eyes and minds to all that we know. Don’t you realise the world is laughing at you not with you?
Try googling corruption, living standards, human rights etc and see where your precious people rate. Oh but better to live in denial isn’t it. Nobody has it in for your country, you and your cronies bring it on yourselves.
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Pak Achmad, I think you check-mated Oigal on that one. Let’s focus on another loud-mouth.