FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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observato says:
Stretching the truth a bit there Ob..aren’t we?
I must admit it may not that perfect. The process that is going in the country should be like what our founding father Soekarno ever said: nation character building. It was not a kind of magic however, we must a bit patient to the ongoing process. But the shape is already here, the diversity that is maintained, and hidden factors those maintain it. Pancasila and the fact that the whole country accept it, of course with little exceptions, can be added as one of the evidence.
Then it is a challenge to us, that today, there are propaganda to depict Indonesia using false generalization about Islam, as shown by a character like justin et.
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oigal says:
Fair enough OB… and for what it worth I agree..Although as you say the process is there but its still fragile with many people taking advantage of the situation.
I wouldn’t worry about about justin et..extermist loons lurk on both sides of the fence but noone takes them too serious here..
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Thanks for agreeing, oigal. People taking advantages yes, perhaps it will always be the same. I wish the current social system that is maturing will soon reach a level that make people never think about that. Remind the days arround 1998 until 2002, such feeling of fragility had much more reasons. Indeed today is far better.
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Justice5 says:
I can’t believe this bullshit. How can they do that to women?!!! Fuck damn extremists!!! removing the clitoris from a woman is like killing that woman!!! just imagine you fall in love of a muslim woman and suddendly she tells you she doesn’t have sex drive! Damnit it was given to us by god! It is made so women have a *drive* to have sex and therefore conceive children!!! damn Im getting carried over by those assholes, better stop typing before I go deeper
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Mustafa says:
Okay let me just say that mutilation of the female Clitoris is None existent in Islam. Yes, a particular Maddhab (school of thought) may accept the practise but that practise is NOT equivalent to female mutilation. Most procedures are very subtle and occur during the early stages of development. A little prick and a wash can NEVER be considered as Mutilation.
I think most people are assuming out of hand that FMG practised in Africa is the SAME practise being carried out in Indonesia. That is ridiculous. No doctor or surgeon would voluntarily cut off a females clitoris. In fact I as a Muslim would never allow that to happen to my daughters.
Many authorities in Islam have already openly declared that this practise should be stopped.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive
That is not true, although I can understand it to as certain degree. The only reason why “Khitan” or circumcision is practised is because of purity. It is also referred to by the term Taharah, ‘purity’. Nothing more nothing less.
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A little prick and a wash can NEVER be considered as Mutilation.
It’s barbaric and by what right does anyone interfer with anothers body..
The only reason why “Khitan” or circumcision is practised is because of purity.
Purity based on what science?
It’s amazing whating people try and defend the indefensable in this day and age.
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Hugh7 says:
“The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive”
Thanks for reminding us of that, Mustafa. Does anyone else think it just a little odd that equivalent operations carried out on the two sexes can have opposite effects (and that we are expected to assume that all women have too much sex drive and all men have not enough)?
And just how is “a little prick and a wash” supposed to confer “purity”?
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anon says:
I’m all for an exchange program whereby we ship all the Mormons to Israel and ship all the Israeli Jews to Utah and then give Utah sovereignty, kind of like the Vatican is its own little country within Rome, except that it’s a whole state. That way the Israeli Jews are safe, and since Utah is landlocked, nobody can “push them into the ocean.” And we get rid of all the Mormons.
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thonnych says:
How about mutilating the ‘male organ’? It’s not fair if female always become victim when they decide some laws about sex.
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jamie says:
My girlfriend is in her 20’s and has had clitoris completely cut off, the skin hood and her labia. She doesn’t know it was done nor that it was done.
Please do not describe this as pricking or cleaning, the labia have been cut off and the edges sewn to the vulva. This was done in Java, we believe at a clinic.
Shame on the medical profession of Indonesia.
This pratice brings shame on Java, it makes a fool of Java, shame on Indonesia and makes a fool of Indonesia. Because they call it Khitan and Disunat it makes a fool of Islam and shames Islam.
No one will discuss it Indonesia.
When asked her mother said why do you want to know. And won’t your bf marry you if it was done to you.
I find it very disturbing they are doing this to little girls, please can someone tell me how much this is still being done? We should protect little girls and encourage their self respect not mutilate them.
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Andy says:
This is really sick and I really wish UNHRC, Amensty International etc would march into Muslim countries and arrest these so called doctors who are nothing short of criminals. Of course they won’t becuse we all now in the eyes of the world you need to have white skin and speak English to be wrong. The rest we whites need to be culturally aware of.
Jamie, I know this is a sensitive thing for you but i’m wondering what effect this has had on your gf. Does she have sensitivity in her private parts? Can she orgasm? I know this is personal but I truly want to know what effect this appalling practice has on women.
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I had assumed that the very minor practices referred to by some posters from Indonesia and Malaysia were the norm in those countries. jamie’s post makes me wonder. Does anyone know? (References would be good.)
Frankly, I start to think that claims that genital cutting somewhere is “minimal” should be taken with a grain of salt everywhere. It’s in nobody’s interest to claim that genital cutting is worse than it really is, but everybody’s interest if people imagine it’s less severe than it really is. Everybody but the little girl or boy, that is.
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Firstly to answer the question, yes she does have full feeling and orgasmsl. So she is lucky.
Please see http://www.clitoraid.org/index.php about the less fortunate ones. I discovered this NGO while looking for info. I suggest that if we feel strongly that we support this NGO.
What I would like to know is how many Indonesians are reading this forum, please can the Indonesian Men and Women speak up and let us know what is happening?
Lastly but most importantly this is not a religious, ethnic, political or colour issue. Let us be aware that while the contibutors here may be able to make open and frank debate, there are stupid racist people who might read this forum and think if someone says a group of a different colour, religion or ethnic group are sub human it is ok to harm or kill the children of that group. I grew up in a country where alleged christians killed innocent people (other christians) and many acts of terrorism, where some terrorism was US funded. I do not label all christians as eveil, nor all americans as evil (arrogant, muderous, lacking self discipline and responsible for many unacceptable acts from killings allies to bombing family weddings maybe). I have some very dear friends in US so do not write them all off.
My girl friend and some friends in Europe are muslim and they find this very upsetting that people excuse mutilation predating both Islam and Christianity, by there saying their respective religions condone it when they do not.
What is best is for all right thinking egalitarian people to unite against this and for us all to speak out against it. I am trying to raise the issue with Indonesian Embassies (saying I don’t want to trade with a country which allows mutilation of girls), speak out and say that real mean want girls and women to keep all that they were born with. I have contacted the health ministy and a large womens health issue group in Indonesia to bring the subject up.
All of you can do the same, even make an enquiry to the tourism department and ask the situation, and reply that you do not want to visit a country that does not prevent mutilation. Pick any country from the map on google that will show you where it is prevalent.
Meanwhile, can some Indonesians add comment to this. It is in Indonesia’s interest to speak up. I was very positive towards your country and culture, but because of FGM, it caused me to be shocked and sickened. It made me turn from wanting to go there, do business, to not really wanting to have anything to do with Indonesia. Please help us understand why people in your country want tho do this to little girls?
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Meanwhile, can some Indonesians add comment to this. It is in Indonesia’s interest to speak up.
Unfortunately they wont…They see us (bules) as interfering and whether right or wrong don’t like if we point out what is wrong to them. Balibo is a case in point. Come to think of it all human rights issues are in that category. Sorry Jamie but you have a better chance of turning the sky pink than getting Indonesians to stop this disgusting practice. We have known it is wrong for centuries yet they have continued doing it for all this time.
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Deta says:
Jamie, I feel empathy for your girlfriend. I am an Indonesian woman and personally am sickened to hear that this practice is still done in Indonesia. So far as I know, FGM is connected with cultural practices rather than with a religion. There is a high possibility that it is still practiced in villages or remote area where delivering a baby is helped by a so called “dukun beranak” (traditional nurse). I don’t know exactly the purpose.
In some Indonesian hospitals, there is also a practice of “sunat” for female babies, but it is no more than cleaning the genital area thoroughly (sometimes uses a needle to take some dirt off) and no part of it is cut off. I have a bunch of cute nieces you know, so really know this practice…
How to stop this culture? Well, I think education is the key, not only for this problem but for other “too many to mention” problems in Indonesia. So if you “bule” really want to help us, help your Indonesian girlfriends and support them to get the highest education as they can.
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Thank you Deta, well said….Bules can and will try to make sure their girlfriends / wives are educated but we are a small speck on the map and probably make up less than 1% of those in relationships with Indonesians.
Best thing you can do Deta is take this passion to the streets of Jakarta, hand out flyers at universities and high schools and make this an issue. Get your friends and family behind you and get them to do the same again. Every movement started from one person and grew from there. It disgusts me to see this is not an issue while people are caned in Aceh for a simple game of cards.
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Flyers on paper are so 20th century! Open a blog, start a site with a forum, start an online movement. In fact start two, one against MGC, one against FGC. They need not work as one – many people will want to put more energy into one than the other – but they should not fight (especially not about which is worse), and they will be most successful if they cooperate.
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ET says:
@ Jamie
It is in Indonesia’s interest to speak up. I was very positive towards your country and culture, but because of FGM, it caused me to be shocked and sickened. It made me turn from wanting to go there, do business, to not really wanting to have anything to do with Indonesia.
I agree with your feelings and intentions, but bear in mind that Indonesia is a very large country and not all of its people adhere to religions or ideologies that promote or condone such a horrible practice. OK if you wat to boycott them and hit them in their most sensitive spot – their wallet, I do it too – but be selective and don’t punish those who have nothing to do with it.
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Thank you all for the sensible comments.
The info that I can find is that it is still being done, Assaalam foundation does 200 girls at a time when they rent a school for the day. Even though it became illegal a few years ago.
True they do not sew up the vagina, but cutting the clitoris and labia is wrong. Even pricking with a needle is wrong. I am reading that 97% of girls are sufferring some kind of fgm. 97% of girls on Java, which is the main island with the capital city.!!
The info I can find is that traditional “”””””midwives””””””” do scraping but in clinics and hospitals use scissors so are actually cutting with scissors and scapels. There are pictures I can find of clearly not african girls shown during and after. There does seem to be a lot of people saying it only happens in some villages, but this appears to be denial.
My girlfriend is educated, didn’t think it had been done to her, only done is some small island villages. Only when she pressed her mother was anything said. Why are you asking? Won’t he marry you if it has been done? My girlfriend is against it and doesn’t want it done to our children. Also I made her aware that anyone resident in Europe that takes a child somewhere that any kind of genital mutilation is done, even without their knowledge, will be charged and found guilty of harming a child and will go to prison.
Deta thanks very much for your input, I have nieces and little female friends that I take care of and watch out for that is why I find the idea so disturbing.
Deta please can you look into it more and find me the true picture? Every time I see a girls on something Indoneian I wonder if it has been done or will be done to her. Your help really appreciated, and it will make a difference to how half Indonesian children will be able to interract with their Indonesian families.
Thanks all.
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Flyers on paper are so 20th century!
This is Indonesia hugh7, don’t forget if people still think FGM is a good idea and quite normal, they most likely have no internet access. The internet reaches less than 10% of Indonesians. Just because you see it everywhere in Jakarta and Bali means nothing when looking at the rest of the country. I would also guess that those who use internet use it for facebook, friendster and general gossip.
A while back our resident pest Purba Negoro stated that his daughters had this practice done to them and his comment was it has been done for centuries and it is not for bules to tell them it is wrong. This is what you are up against. Common sense doesn’t enter the equation. -
Andy: I take your point. Still, everyone here has internet access, so that’s some people, and people online can upload handouts as pdfs that can be downloaded and printed in bulk. I agree that this is work for Indonesians who know the language and culture. Nobody anywhere wants to be told what to do by “strangers who don’t undersand us”.
I’d take one point further. Most people use the Internet for online games (largely games of hostility) in which any social interaction is purely incidental. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be used for good, too.
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devilkitty says:
I was circumcised when i was born by doctor’s suggestion, and it was done by both doctor and nurse at hospital. It has NOTHING at all to do with religion. In Islam, only men have obligation to be circumcised, not women.
And it was not the whole thing, just a bit :p
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I was circumcised when i was born by doctor’s suggestion, and it was done by both doctor and nurse at hospital.
Why would a doctor recommend mutilation of an infant?
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I have no idea, i was obviously a different case (not all female babies were circumcised in that hospital). I was born in St. Elizabeth hospital, my circumcision had nothing to do with my Religion.
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but do you think it is necessary?
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For some case, i believe medical science says so.
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For some case, i believe medical science says so
As is pre natal brain surgery but certainly not recommended. As for not being a religious issue, that is often said but the reality is that is how in the vast majority of cases it is perceived and it would be ignoring reality to pretend otherwise.
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Vast majority ? none of my fellow female muslim friends and family were circumcised, but i know it happened in some place in Africa. Female circumcision is merely Cultural, not Religious practice.
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Hi Patung,
Just for the record, I was commenting on some of the more nasty posters, not making a megative judgement on the site’s administration!
Basically, this is a great site for discussion of Indonesian issues, and issues of concern to those for whom Indonesia is a concern. Unfortunately, like most corners of the internet, it too often becomes a sounding board for people’s self-loathings, which come dressed up as racism, xenophobia and so on.
I get frustrated when this garbage drowns out the interesting conversations…