Bahai
Nov 1st, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslims converting to Bahai.
Thirty-one Muslims in the Donggala area of Central Sulawesi have become apostates and converted to the Bahá’à religion, it is said, inviting the anger of their neighbours who are sticking firm to Islam, and the displeasure of the local bureaucracy.
The head of the Religious Affairs Office in Palolo sub-district said that the Bahai faith, led by one Mulahi, a former marriage counsellor, entered Banpers village in the 1990s, and Mulahi had persuaded 31 local people to convert.
But some Muslims in the village are not taking it lying down:
The homes of the Bahai followers in Banpers are often pelted with stones.
Nor is the local government, which held a meeting between concerned Muslims and the Bahaists in September, 2007, wherein the Bahai adherents were warned to have a think about which religion they wanted to belong to, either Islam, like before, or another religion which was recognised by the government, because Bahai is not. Another meeting will be held soon, to find out whether the Bahaists have had enough thinking time. antara
The Department of Religion (Depag) has also sent down an investigative team, says Muhammad Ramli in Palu, and they will have to decide whether Bahai is a sect within Islam. If so, then the converts, or their leaders, can likely be prosecuted for blasphemy. Depag also wants to find out how Bahai has been spread in the area, because if it is being preached at people who already hold a religion, then that may also constitute a crime, he said. antara
November 8th. Two out of the seven households that converted to Bahai are said to have returned to Islam, after the two heads of the households, Mulahi (70) and Muslimin (40), met with local leaders. Four others refused to change back to Islam, while the seventh did not turn up. antara
395 Comments on “Bahai”
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iamisaid says:
Susan,
It’s all a matter of perspection….
Haiya, ejaan, ejaannnnnn ku!
perception dong!
Maafkan
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Wouldn’t it be nice if this site had a spell-checker?
But hey, we can get an Avatar!
On 1/6/08, Indonesia Matters wrote:
> There is a new comment on the post “Bahai”.
> https://indonesiamatters.com/1465/bahai/
>
> Author: iamisaid
> Comment:
> Susan,
>
>It’s all a matter of perspection….
>
> Haiya, ejaan, ejaannnnnn ku!
>
> perception dong!
> -
Mas Patung,
Susan says:
Wouldn’t it be nice if this site had a spell-checker?
I echo:
Could we? pellleassse.
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Grace says:
If anyway has read through all of that to the end… haha
Reading arguments like this, always makes me really confused because neither side seem to have a clear position, and aren’t responding to the same things.
Islam is a wonderful religion. It was a religion that bought civilization, justice and order to the immoral, depraved and barbaric pre-Islamic Middle Eastern society. Muhammad brought laws that established peace. Muhammad brought laws that introduced eduation, and provided the foundations for a great civilization.
The foundation of a great civilization is the beginning that all major religions start with. These religions also, for some inexplicable reason, falter and grow corrupt. Religious leaders (from whom the religious bodies receive the majority of their guidance) – not all, but many, become more interested in the power their positions wield them, and not instead in working selflessly for the betterment of their fellow man.
The religion loses its purity and potent essence.
As God has established his covenant with mankind, He does not abandon us to a decaying society, but instead, He sends us another message of love through one of His many Manifestations – Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses and Baha’u’llah. Through these Manifestations, a new message is given with the same fundamental spiritual principles, but also with teachings directly related to the issues that the society then faces.
The Bahai Faith is so similar to Islam! Islam is so similar to Christianity! Christianity is so similar to Judaism! Buddhism is so similar to Hinduism! They are so fundamentally similar, and yet, they all possess different and unique potentials, one cannot replace the other.
One potential that all religions prior to the Bahai Faith do not and could not possess, is that regarding the establishment of world unity. This was because at the time of those other religions, the world wasn’t as big, life involved much less geographical space. Each prior religion progressively established peace and unity in larger areas, a country, a continent. Their message of unity was achieved in these areas, but was not focused on the world as a whole. Instead, there was a promise of a future golden age.
The Bahai Faith’s teachings centre around the establishment of this New World Order, upholding, validating and unifying the previous religions that foretell the coming of Baha’u’llah – the Glory of God.
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As God has established his covenant with mankind, He does not abandon us to a decaying society, but instead, He sends us another message of love through one of His many Manifestations – Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses and Baha’u’llah. Through these Manifestations, a new message is given with the same fundamental spiritual principles, but also with teachings directly related to the issues that the society then faces.
The Bahai Faith is so similar to Islam! Islam is so similar to Christianity! Christianity is so similar to Judaism! Buddhism is so similar to Hinduism! They are so fundamentally similar, and yet, they all possess different and unique potentials, one cannot replace the other.
False teaching! You are so confused, Grace!
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Mr tanjung panyabungan says:
For every moslem, i hope you don’t leave your religion just becouse money. Nothing connection of money and faith. If you believe islam. You will be safe in this word and here after. Please belive me. Islam is the best. Please study your religion. If you release your religion becouse poorness. You will be poor forever.
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Mr. tanjung wrote:
“For every moslem, i hope you don’t leave your religion just becouse money. Nothing connection of money and faith. If you believe islam. You will be safe in this word and here after. Please belive me. Islam is the best. Please study your religion. If you release your religion becouse poorness. You will be poor forever.”Rest assured that if any Muslim becomes a Baha’i it would not be for the money. We don’t have any. 🙂
Seriously, given the kind of persecution they face when they become Baha’is in a Muslim country why would any one do this except that they recognized Baha’u’llah to be the Promised Mahdi? For instance, in Iran Baha’is have been deprived of their liveliohood and permitted to take only the menial employment. Their homes and pensions have been expropriated. Their children are harrassed in school. They are denied access to higher education no matter how well they score on the entrance exams.
“Neither fortune, nor wealth, nor glory, could deter them! God knoweth the things which befell them and yet the people are, for the most part, unaware!”
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 72)
Judge fairly. Is God on the side of the oppressors or the oppressed?
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Shloka says:
@ Grace,
Sure Islam maybe the point from which Saudi Arabia came into the full light of history, but to call all the Pre Islamic Middle Eastern world “barbaric “is certainly presumptious. In the Middle East, Iran had a thriving Zoroastrian community, and had been a world power for more than a millennia, when Muslim invaders came. Zoroastrianism was a monotheistic, well organized religion too with a sound theology. Cyrus the Great, the Persian King, abolished slavery a thousand years before Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) birth who clearly allowed slavery. Even Mesopotemia( Present Iraq) was a thriving civilization which began 4000 Years before Islam. Ancient Egypt’s achievements are probably well known to all. Did you know, in Ancient Egypt, women got the same inheritance as their brothers, could lodge cases in Court, travel without a male escort( Muslim women in Saudi still need a related man to accompany them) and daughters were as wanted as sons. Even in Saudi Arabia, Khadija the Prophet’s wife was a successful businesswoman, one of the richest in Saudi. She could personally propose to and marry a man 15 years her junior.
@ Mr. Tanjung,
Some people do indeed leave their religion because of poverty, there maybe many others who leave it because of personal conviction. Many very poor nations, Yemen, Algeria, Sudan have a death penalty for apostasy from Islam! While Islam maybe the best for you, for some others it might be bad or even the worst. You have to allow them that choice. -
Bahai Left says:
Bahai is like a rubbish bin. You have all kinds of things overthere. It is a man-made religion and it has a connection with zionism, the action that legalizes killing, torturing and occupying the Palestinian teritory. What is so important about Bahai?
They want to go to hell, let them go by themselves. -
The Baha’i Faith has no connection whatsoever with Zionism. It ended up in Palestine because that is where the Baha’u’llah was exiled by the Ottoman Empire.
If the Baha’i Faith is not important then you should leave us alone and stop persecuting us. According to the Qur’an persecution is worse than murder. -
Sophie says:
I am a Christian. I think everyone should have religous rights, I love Indonesia and it’s culture but I think they should not just limit the people to the Six official religions of Indonesia.
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Barry Prima says:
Susan Grace….it seems this thread is kind of dead….never did get round to it earlier I’m afraid. But i have a few questions to ask of you.
I am not well informed about the Baha’i Faith, but my instinctive reaction is to put it alongside other contemporary systems such as Qadiyani, Jehovas witness, Fulan Gong etc.
I noticed your other responses, all very nice and polite, however nice and polite and politically correct does not mean something is true and makes me naturally suspicious. My questions, although seemingly harsh are not intended to embarrass you but present to you how Bahais comes across to a Muslim. I hope you can help me to improve my understanding with some deep and meaningful replies. I have only thought about Baha’i seriously for the last few hours, as before i never could take a religion that claims it is the latest and most perfect one seriously when in over a hundred years it has failed to achieve anything and only managed 5/6, million adherents. Doesn’t look like gods on your side, although that as an argument is quite weak I admit.I have highlighted some basic Baha’i principles and then explain underneath why they come across as false to me.
Bahai claims all the religions are from god.
Seemingly simple concept but it cannot avoid the trap of other religions in that in practise it has by its very nature or claim to be the truth compete and thus invalidate other phenomena’s of the same kind such as the aforementioned ….Qaddiyani, Jehovah witness, Rastafarianism etc etc. Bahai also does not recognise Sikhism.
So no real change there is there?
In fact in claiming that all religions are from god, but then contradicting itself it is dishonest and untrue. By espousing a unity of religions on a level where it is impossible it fails as an ideology or religion on a very basic metaphysical principle.All have to find the truth by their selves and there is no compulsion or competition.
Anyone who leaves the Bahia faith, still feels that he/she is damned (read the numerous ex Baha’i sites/forums including one very revealing one from a Baha’i in Indonesia)..(i have to be honest and admit i just read them in the last hour).. If Baha’i is the truth then leaving the Baha’i faith is rejecting the truth or not? Some sects of the Bahai are said to be traitors or not?
So again you have the same value judgments/discrimination of world into camps of right and wrong.
Again although it sounds good in theory Bahia fails even more terribly than other religions because it fails to meet with reality on the very terms that it starts out. It is pretending to be something it can never be, unlike Islam and the other religions which are only what they are and never feel to apologize for their suchness.
Bahai aims to bring unity of Mankind by peaceful means and without negating other religions.
If Bahai is the truth and intends (as it evidently does) to convert other people into its ranks, it can never be peaceful, as this very small scale example in Indonesia shows us. If people accept Baha’i they have to reject Islam and change their ritual practise etc….so that means Islam is untrue or less true than Baha’i?
If Bahai faith is accepted it involves a rejection at some level of something else, and thus will inevitably cause great conflict in societies.
So do Bahais think that the truth of Bahai will come after great suffering or not?If they do, and the reality of the world dictates that they would be blind not to, what is the difference between Baha’i and other faiths? There isn’t any, so what is the use of Bahai?
By saying all religions are from god does not solve the problem of religious rivalry, Bahai just creates new conflicts that only accentuate the existing ones and again fails on it very basis for existing!
You cannot claim to be the completion of the existing great faiths, by creating a new one In trying to do so you are being very dishonest and most of all untrue!Bahai is the external manifestation of the transcendent unity of religions.
I have come across this argument on my googling in the last few hours from Bahais who try to explain it as the crystallisation of Perennial philosophy, when no perennial traditionalist actually recognised Bahais as valid (in fact some expressly when acknowledging its existence condemned it) Even a basic grasp of perennial principles will lead to the conclusion that Bahais is false on the very premise on which it claims to be true.
I acknowledge the transcendent Unity of religions but i feel Baha’is’ is a false religion and thus very harmful for the following reasons:
The transcendent unity of religions is just that, it is transcendent not imminent, (Tasbih and Tanzih)it exist in the inner reality of the universe/man not the outer reality. From the point of view of god, all is one, from the point of man all is evidently not one.
In Islamic mysticism and in Buddhism the integrity of the world is maintained by the Qutubs or bodhisattvas who are in the invisible realm, ie not in this world. Same in Taoism where the sage is guiding the destiny of the world although he is unknown to the world.
Islam,chrisitanity all have a necessary element within them that excludes people outside of them(at least on the outset). This is necessary because by excluding them it instigates a response from them that keeps them from stepping too far outside of their natural domain. They thus encourage multiplicity and balance much better and more naturally than a faith which pretends to acknowledge them and their worth in an attempt to bring them under its own control ie Bahai.From what i can see Bahai is a religion and has the same built in problems of any religion, but it pretends or alludes to not having them and thus invalidates itself and is thus wolf in sheep’s clothing. The world doesn’t need any more religions it needs a greater understanding of the ones that already exist. Perhaps what the world needs is a person who can clarify and illuminate what already exist rather than proposing something new that replaces it all. That is what the Mehdi is described as being in Islam not a new prophet.
Finally I Apologise in that my arguments are not properly constructed, as I have only given this serious thought as mentioned in the last few hours. However I hope your responses can help me to clarify this matter better to myself, who know I might even change my mind!
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Roel says:
@””Perhaps what the world needs is a person who can clarify and illuminate what already exist “” (Barry quote)
Teachings are not derived from a single person. The core of Biblia is it’s plurality. We do not encounter Jezus through a single evangelium. A book by a single man can not hold sufficient answers. Modern communication allows to clarify in mutual communication. You should be aware that forum’s like this allow to exchange knowledge from any corner of this world on this topic. Who ? before us could use this type of exchange of idea’s ?
Bahai is just a signal of a changing time and the few differences between islam teaching and bahai might give you an idea in which direction the world is moving. Keeping the “old time religion” is like trying to keep the milk fresh.
For them, in their time, they new the taste of susu. The teaching for us can only be keju.
Bahai is trying to give a new flavour of susu manis but will in due time turn keju as well. -
hariyangindah says:
Nowadays, if a problem comes up in the scope of inter-religious relationship, it is most likely a problem which involves Islam. It means, that the problem is Islam. If only there were no such religion like Islam, perhaps this world had been a nice place to live.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Hariyangindah,
There is no problem with Islam, only in the way it is practiced!
Peace
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The need to discover knowledge is as neccessity to (some) man as food and air. If you go into the world to discover knowledge, you encounter the Koran as well as the Veda’s and Plato etc.etc.
How pleased a modern moslim should be that the knowledge of the Koran is free to access by anyone in this modern times.
Why then is there a need to take a position that those who encounter wisdom in the Koran are forbidden to encounter wisdom in the teaching of Bahai ?
The donkey need a stick to go up on the hill. The eagle fly upon the mountains as he pleases and does not understand the need of the stick.
Sitting in the valley and never climb Puncak will prevent you from the feeling of reaching a summit. Reading the Koran is like climbing the Kilimanjaro.
Who forbid to climb the Mont Blanc or Everest ? what is the point in that ?
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Frank Johnson says:
The reason Moslems and ALL other bonifide religions should be concerned about the fascist Bahai cult is simple – the Bahais want to take over the World.
They are working toward a one world government (run by Bahais and subject to Bahai rule) and a one world religion (the Bahai Cult.)
While all the real religions think their religion is the best and would like to see everyone convert to their religion, they are not Hellbent like the Bahais are on FORCING all the people in the World to convert to Bahaism.
In the USA, some Bahai fundamentalists have actually managed to sneak in a law called IMBRA which effectively bans American men from even saying hi to a foreign (including Canadian and Mexican) woman unless they are essentially strip-searched and finger-printed.
This is just a taste of the type of laws they have in mind for non-Bahais.
Be aware. Be very aware.
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Well Frank, I think you are forgetting that the Baha’i Faith forbids both jihad and forcible conversion. If the world ever comes to be run on Baha’i principles it will be because the vast majority of people decide to bring this about democratically.
Incidentally, those Baha’is Frank is calling ‘fundamentalists’ are ones who run a non-profit law firm called the Tahirih Justice Center which seeks to protect women from gender-based violence. The IMBRA Bill which Frank refers to is the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005 which requires any American seeking an international ‘mail order bride’ to provide full information regarding any history of violent criminal behavior. Contrary to what Frank says, you don’t have to provide that information in order to say ‘hi’ but you do need to provide it before petitioning to sponsor a perspective finance to come to the United States. It also requires that the marriage broker provide perspective brides information regarding the rights and resources available to those who find themselves victims of domestic violence. Obviously these measures are being taken to protect women from abuse and exploitation
You can find more information about the Tahirih Justice Center here:
Apparently Frank finds laws which insure the protection of women oppressive. But when exactly did promoting the equality of women and men become ‘fundamentalist’?
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Susan (or should I say Layli Miller-Muro?),
You are full of it and you know it.
OBVIOUSLY you work for the Tahirih Justice Center as a “volunteer” (paid via American tax dollars) to promote your Bahai Faith takeover of the World.
You even had to lie about IMBRA because you know damn well all the man’s information has to be given BEFORE he can even say hi to a foreign woman. BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE. Google it folks for proof of Susan lying.
Big difference and you know it, but then again you and your Bahai “Faith” or should I say CULT are nothing more than a bunch of liars. Layli Miller-Muro, the director of the Tahirih Justice Center makes over $80,000 a year from this “non-profit” (Ha Ha) “law firm” disguised as a women’s shelter but in reality is a front (cell) for the Bahai Faith takeover.
Tahirih is currently under government investigation for tax fraud and other misdeeds (fraud, treason, etc.) not to mention trafficking of Iranian Bahai (terrorists) into the USA.
Layli Miller-Muro is a proven liar.
If IMBRA is so great, why did it have to be sneaked into the renewal of another law just before Congress went on Christmas vacation and with NO verified facts (besides what Layli pulled out of her fat Bahai ass) or testimony from foreign women or American men? It failed to pass on its own before because it is so unconstitutional that politicians wouldn’t touch it.
Indeed the overwhelming majority of politicians that signed it are not even aware that they signed it as they were in a hurry to get home for Christmas. No word of it in the media either because queer lesbian feminists and Bahais (like Susan obviously) try to suppress public knowledge of it.
Tells you a lot about how the Bahai fraud operates. Fraud and more lies by liars with a cult agenda.
Do NOT trust them!
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Who forbid to climb the Mont Blanc or Everest ? what is the point in that ?
Why forbid anything? Because the aim, intention and method of that thing is harmful ultimately. You might die from lack of oxygen if trying to climb Everest without the right equipment. Betul?
There is a lot of truth in what Alesteir Crowley( self acclaimed world’s most evil man) taught, there is alot of truth and knowledge in guna guna,but does that mean we should all accept them as our guides as well?
The prophet Muhammad said there is great benefit in alcohol but the harm out ways the benefit, same is true of Bahai.
People, who say peace peace peace without taking into consideration the violent and evil within a man, are never to be trusted and will never socially mobilise large numbers of people. They are blind to the nature of reality.
The great religions accept evil and work to transform it, indeed they recognise it as a necessity, as how could you have good without evil? How would Allah manifest his mercy, without showing his wrath?
How could a person repent and evolve without sinning?If the world ever comes to be run on Baha’i principles it will be because the vast majority of people decide to bring this about democratically.
Hmm.if it is the last and superior revelation then god will bring it about and god has proven himself to be undemocratic(at least in the human understanding of the word).Really that is a typically bahai statement that doesn’t match up to its own claims that all religions are sent by god as god has used warfare to further his aims.Also What about all the other cults that people claim they are from god,where do you draw the line. You have to have some criteria to discriminate at some point between what is valid and what is not. It (bahai)thus cannot ever achieve what it purports to be created to achive.
Teachings are not derived from a single person. The core of Biblia is it’s plurality.
Yes i mostly agree with you on that, that was a somewhat lazy comment.
A book by a single man cannot hold sufficient answers.
Again i would agree that’s true (in a manner of speaking) but does not necessarily mean that all books or faiths (such as Bahai) are true.
Keeping the “old time religion” is like trying to keep the milk fresh.For them, in their time, they new the taste of susu. The teaching for us can only be keju.
Bahai is trying to give a new flavour of susu manis but will in due time turn keju as well.That’s social evolution you’re talking about and is contrary to the traditional perspective within all the great religions which emphasise as king of spiritual `devolution’ or hardening of matter ie: the world and people within it are moving towards a more kasar reality ,which will block their perception of the halus reality. The reign of quantity over quality.
Only new agers,who have no religion, but one they make up themselves with their own conjecture believe that we are heading towards some golden age.
Bahais are trying to give you susu yang buskuk ,but they get your to drink it by saying its susi manis, it even looks like susu manis from the packaging, but a man who knows religious branding will know its `not the real thing’ very easily.
The `old time’ religions have survived for at least 1400 years..and will continue cause they have so many levels within them,they can be intepreted and reintepreted according to the times,wether for good or bad.Nowadays, if a problem comes up in the scope of inter-religious relationship, it is most likely a problem which involves Islam. It means that the problem is Islam.
It could also mean Islam is the solution. Muslims did not invent war, they did not rape and pillage the third world, they did not cause the death of a million Iraqi children etc, muslim culture has its fair share of bad asses but it certainly does not have a monopoly by any means.
Islam is a religion that has a civilising effect on certain mentalities/cultures, and gives them a relationship to god that might not be suitable for other cultures. Every culture/ethnic group has their own failings and the different races/religions are willed by god as a means of balancing each other out. As Allah says:“To each among you have we prescribed a law and an Open Way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues”
That statement proves the pancasila concept of unity in diversity is completely consistent with islam.
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Susan says:
Frank Johnson wrote:
OBVIOUSLY you work for the Tahirih Justice Center as a “volunteer” (paid via American tax dollars) to promote your Bahai Faith takeover of the World.
Actually I work for Jackson State University in Mississippi where I teach as a professor of Middle East and South Asian history. The Tahirih Justice Center is located in Washington D.C. and the only contact I’ve had with them has been via the internet. But rest assured, I will convey to them your remarks. But for the record, while the Tahirih Justice Center may have on occasion received modest government grants, is funding for the most part comes from private and corporate donations.
You even had to lie about IMBRA because you know damn well all the man’s information has to be given BEFORE he can even say hi to a foreign woman.
You can say ‘hi’ to a foreign woman all you want. Who’s to stop you? We are talking about contacts mediated by *marriage brokers.* Why would anyone object to having to reveal any criminal record of violent behavior unless they had such a record to begin with? These ‘mail-order brides’ are entitled to that information to insure their safety; that they are not getting into an abusive situation. But judging by the websites you are associated with it seems it precisely these kinds of abusive relationships that you guys are interested in. You guys are looking for women you can *dominate.* Your misogynist references to ‘lesbian feminists’ (as if all feminists were lesbians) is sufficient evidence of this.
“Layli Miller-Muro, the director of the Tahirih Justice Center makes over $80,000 a year from this “non-profit” (Ha Ha) “law firm” disguised as a women’s shelter but in reality is a front (cell) for the Bahai Faith takeover.”
First off, it is not a woman’s shelter at all, though I’m sure they find placements for any woman who needs one. As for Layli Miller’s salary, I don’t know if she makes what you say she makes or not, but $80,000 is a pretty modest salary for lawyer in the United States, especially one living in Washinton, D.C. area where the cost of living is high. It is unheard of for the head of a law firm to make that little. Non-profit organizations pay salaries all the time, there is nothing unethical about this. The president of the Red Cross receives a salary of over $600,000 a year. As for your suggestion that they are front cell for Baha’i takeover, what can I say but you are seriously paranoid?
Tahirih is currently under government investigation for tax fraud and other misdeeds (fraud, treason, etc.) not to mention trafficking of Iranian Bahai (terrorists) into the USA.
Nonsense, you guys filed a complaint with the IRS claiming that the Tahirih Justice Center should be listed as a lobbyist organization rather than a non-profit, but I’ve seen no evidence whatsoever that this complaint is being taken seriously by the IRS or any other government agency. And making clearly libelous statements by accusing them of treason and trafficking Iranian Baha’i ‘terrorists’ is not a very smart thing to do when you are talking about a law firm. There is no such thing as a Baha’i terrorist, unless by that you mean you find the prospect of female equality terrifying. As for accusing then of ‘trafficking’ I find that rather ironic given the marriage brokers’ reputation for human trafficking (i.e. slavery.) Indeed, it is precisely this kind of trafficking which the Tahirih Justice Center is trying to prevent.
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Hi Barry,
Are you the actor by that name?
You wrote:
Hmm.if it is the last and superior revelation then god will bring it about and god has proven himself to be undemocratic(at least in the human understanding of the word).Really that is a typically bahai statement that doesn’t match up to its own claims that all religions are sent by god as god has used warfare to further his aims.
Baha’is believe in Progressive Revelation, meaning that God has only gradually revealed His will for us. As Baha’u’llah says:
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
(Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 213)
In this age the use of jihad, whether offensive or defensive, has been completely prohibited. To quote Baha’u’llah again:
“The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups. Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes. Exalted is His 92 purpose; glorified is His power; magnified is His dominion!”
(Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 91)
As for the means in which Baha’is might come to participate in the affairs of government, Shoghi Effendi insists that this will only happen when they “come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well.” (Nov. 19,1939)
As to whether God can work His will through democracies, if He can work His will through war He can do it through democracies as well! Baha’i institutions are all democratically elected as per the directions of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, but when they consulted in a spirit of love and unity we believe their decisions are divinely guided.
Also What about all the other cults that people claim they are from god,where do you draw the line. You have to have some criteria to discriminate at some point between what is valid and what is not. It (bahai)thus cannot ever achieve what it purports to be created to achive.
I don’t see the relationship between your premise and your conclusion, but let’s look at your premise for now. What about all those ‘other cults’? Can’t people investigate for themselves and decide what is true or false? Governments don’t need to decide this for us!
Only new agers,who have no religion, but one they make up themselves with their own conjecture believe that we are heading towards some golden age.
Not true. Virtually all religions have foretold this. In the book of Isaiah we read the following:
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. . . And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
While the book of Revelation states the foretells:
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them ,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”The `old time’ religions have survived for at least 1400 years..and will continue cause they have so many levels within them,they can be intepreted and reintepreted according to the times,wether for good or bad.
You can only do so much of ‘interpreting and reinterpreting’ before what you end up with is man’s own creation rather than God’s revelation.
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Susan,
I am the administrator of http://www.onlinedatingrights.com, a website devoted to disseminating the truth about IMBRA and those who support it, including Tahirih. I am an attorney and my (foreign) wife is a bilingual engineer and international businesswoman who I met online five years ago and who immigrated to the US with a six figure bank account. For the record, my wife thinks that women with attitudes like yours are misinformed, misguided, ethnocentric and arrogant.
I find it amusing that you attack Frank for his generalizations about feminists who support this foolish law when you made some serious and negative generalizations about men like me and women like my wife.
Your statement is also factually incorrect in two regards. First, IMBRA does indeed prohibit communication between US citizens and foreign citizens via internet if the foreigners have placed their profiles on internet introduction sites. This prohibition is waived if the American submits to a sex offender check and gives a certification of any previous marriages and divorces, all children and all states lived in since age 18. Whether or not the American has a criminal record is irrelevant as anyone wishing to communicate with a foreigner this way must comply, regardless of whether she is Canadian, British, German or Vietnamese.
Second, you mentioned that Tahirih gets the majority of its funding from donations, but this is not true. In 2008 they received $1.1M from a Congressional earmark, and each year or so the Department of Justice gives them about $700K. Their private donations do not approach this.
You may call introduction services “marriage brokers” if you like as does the misguided federal law, but I must wonder why you don’t also refer to match.com, yahoo personals and eharmony in the same manner. I suspect it is because you think that foreign women are inferior to American women and you wish to denigrate them in order to prove your point that men like me are abusive and seeking women we can dominate. Apparently in your American worldview you think that if an American woman uses a website to meet men it is right and just, but if a foreign woman uses a website to meet men, some of whom might happen to be American, she is a desperate and impoverished incompetent who is incapable of protecting herself without the help of American feminist-inspired laws.
BTW, you will waste a few moments of your life alerting Tahirih of this discussion and Frank’s comments. That is because one of the board members of Tahirih Justice Center, Larry Miller, the father of Executive Director Layli Miller, is a member of our website and he has debated Frank many, many times in the past on our website. In fact, he has debated several of us and the discussions are quite illuminating. One of these recent discussions can be found here. Larry’s comments begin on page two (where Frank’s ruminitions end): http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php?topic=1185.10
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With all the “facts and stats” “Susan” has (courtesy of Layli Miller-Muro of the Tahirih Justice Center – a Bahai Faith Corporation), it is pretty obvious she is (1) a brainwashed Tahirih Justice Center “volunteer” out to brainwash non-Bahais into believing Bahais are God’s (or should I say Bulauiahuals) gift to the world, (2) regular brainwashed Bahai sent to infiltrate websites like this and try to brainwash normal religious people into believing Bahais are God’s (or should I say Bulauiahuals) gift to the world or (3) one of many queer lesbian feminists who back the Bahais and Tahirih Justice Center because they believe in gay sex and marriage like the Bahais.
“Susan” said “If the world ever comes to be run on Baha’i principles it will be because the vast majority of people decide to bring this about democratically.”
You wish Susan! The people of the World are not that stupid which is why Bahais like you infiltrate sites like this in an attempt to brainwash people into succumbing to “God’s preferred religion.”
Bahais don’t have the slightest idea of what democracy means. Like Communists, they have been brainwashed into believing their “leaders – the Universal House of Justice” are infallible and know “what’s best” for all of mankind. Robots like Susan serve their masters. They make Nazis and Communists look like small change.
With all the knowledge “Susan” has about the American Bahai Cell, the Tahirih Justice Center, it is painfully obvious she is part of its inner workings.
Like a good Bahai, she is here on the site (and many others) to try to brainwash people into believing the Bahai Faith lies. She has been here on this site for a long time and she is upset that I have exposed her and her fraudulent lies about the Bahai Faith and especially the Tahirih Justice Center.
If you have any common sense DO NOT believe a word she says. She is here for a purpose – to brainwash you and to try to downplay criticism of the Bahai Faith and the Tahirih Justice Center.
Sorry “Susan” but I can see through you like glass and I imagine many others will now also.
To be honest “Susan” sounds EXACTLY like Larry Miller, part owner and Father of Tahirih Justice Center director Layli Miler-Muro who is using American tax dollars to promote the Bahai Faith in the USA.
I have been dealing with these frauds for over three years now and I honestly and truthfully warn everyone here NOT to fall for their propaganda and lies. They are sneaky, liars and only think of themselves. Bulaiuah was a fraudulent midget with delusional thoughts that he was the Son of God. HE WASN’T! He was a liar and everything he taught was a lie. Most Bahais DON’T know the truth about the “faith” because they have been brainwashed into thinking the Bahais believe in a flowerly vision of a NEW WORLD ORDER where Bahais are in control and the ONLY religion is the Bahai Faith and mankind lives happily every after in peace with doves flying in the air while mankind lays around in bliss while eating grapes. NOT TRUE!
The REAL Bahai vision of the New World Order is that of the upper controlling elite (Universal House of Justice) living in a life of luxury while their slaves (everybody else who has been brainwashed) work to support them. The brainwashers like “Susan” may enjoy a limited place in their society with non-Bahai slaves attending to their every need and desire (as long as those desires do not compete with their Master’s desires.)
As to “Susan?” She is full of it. I don’t believe for 2 seconds she is a “Professor in Tennessee.” She wishes! She is just a peon “volunteer” at the Tahirih Justice Center who makes nothing and eats table scraps while her master Layli Miller-Muro eats steak at the finest restaurants.
She claims Tahirih Justice Center is in Washington, DC when she knows damn well it is in Fairfax, VA (but you know Wash, DC sounds more “important” for a Bahai organization.)
“Susan” claims Tahirih Justice Center “may have on occasion received modest government grants” even though she knows damn well they get over $750,000 a year of taxpayers’ money and just received almost $2 million dollars last year. “Modest?” Why do you try to downplay it “Susan?”
“Susan” claims to believe in women’s rights yet she refers to foreign women as “mail order brides” and International Friendship Services as “International Marriage Brokers” (a phrase coined by Layli Miller-Muro of the Tahirih Justice Center to get more taxpayer money.)
After reading “Susan’s” posts, it is painfully obvious that she IS a queer lesbian Bahai feminist with an agenda.
Unless she is really Larry Miller (which is the same thing.) She sure talks like Larry Miller and paraphrases his ridiculous veiled threats.
Come get me “Susan” (Larry Miller) for making “clearly libelous statements.” Isn’t that the typical Bahai way of doing things? Threatening those who disagree with you? See how Bahais operate folks?
I stand by what I said.
“Susan” said “There is no such thing as a Baha’i terrorist.” I have news for you….they ALL are!
I am a Christian and I respect ALL religions. We are ALL God’s Children.
The Bahai Faith, however, is a scam designed to enrich those at the top. Don’t let people like “Susan” wash your brain. They only have THEIR best interests at heart – NOT yours!
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Assalamualaikum
Brother Frank JohnsonIranian ladies are hot and blessed with paragon of beauty and intelligence. Indonesians don’t mind being bahaist and owned by one of these cuties.
Wasalam.
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The discussion is about interferance. If these people want to follow Bahai or the famous flying spagettimonster, I do not see the need to stop this.
This discussion is NOT about if Bahai is a good or bad faith.
In Germany the Scientology church is not forbidden. But if you are member like Tom Cruise, you are not allowed to take a job in public service. I think this should be enough from a state towards it’s citizens. You can do to a certain level what you choose but some choices have certain consequences. Base no. 1 allow your citizens as much freedom as it does not harm society as a whole.
It is very unlikely Bahai population in Indonesia ever will reach 5%
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Dear Tristan,
My congratulations on your happy marriage. I know Baha’is who have met and married via internet contacts as well, but I doubt if any of them used marriage brokers. I presume that it what you mean by internet introduction sites. I think if the reader explores sites like this they will see quickly the difference between this and eharmony:
http://www.international-marriage-broker.com/
Incidentally, telling us that the Tahirih Justice Center got more than a million dollars in government grants in no way refutes my assertion that most of their monies come from private and corporate donations. To do that you would have to know what they got in the way of private grants. But it does strike me as odd that Frank is trying to persuade us that the Tahirih Justice Center is under investigation whereas in fact, the government thinks highly enough of their activities to fund them in this way.
You wrote:
I suspect it is because you think that foreign women are inferior to American women and you wish to denigrate them in order to prove your point that men like me are abusive and seeking women we can dominate.
I most certainly do *not* think foreign women are inferior and certainly the Tahirih Justice Center which is dedicated to their protection does not. As for feeling that perhaps those opposing this bill might be seeking women they can dominate, that might have something to the fact there are articles on your website seeking to overturn the entire Violence Against Women’s Act, not just the portion requiring that criminal records be revealed to any mail-order brides to be, or when virtually every essay on that site is dedicated to condemning feminists and American women in general.
Frank writes:
To be honest “Susan” sounds EXACTLY like Larry Miller, part owner and Father of Tahirih Justice Center director Layli Miler-Muro who is using American tax dollars to promote the Bahai Faith in the USA.
Having only communicated with Larry once when he directed the Landegg Academy in Switzerland, I have no idea what Larry sounds like, but non-profit organizations do not have owners.’ Larry is not a lawyer and is not on staff either.
She has been here on this site for a long time and she is upset that I have exposed her and her fraudulent lies about the Bahai Faith and especially the Tahirih Justice Center.
Nobody here was talking about the Tahirih Justice Center until you interjected it into this thread which is really about thirty one villagers being persecuted for their religious beliefs, something you appear to approve of.
The REAL Bahai vision of the New World Order is that of the upper controlling elite (Universal House of Justice) living in a life of luxury while their slaves (everybody else who has been brainwashed) work to support them.
Try again, Frank. I’ve been in the houses of members of the Universal House of Justice. Hooper Dunbar, for instance, lives in a modest three bedroom flat. Youth who work in the gardens occupy the flat just below his. They do not receive any salaries, thought their basic needs are taken care of. If they want luxuries like automobiles, they purchase them out of their own savings. The one car I saw was a Toyota Corolla or something.
As to “Susan?” She is full of it. I don’t believe for 2 seconds she is a “Professor in Tennessee.”
LOL. Did I say anything about Tennessee? Jackson State University is in Mississippi. Go to my website and see what I do: http://susanmaneck.com/
I’m a historian, not a lawyer.While your there, read my article on Tahirh for whom the Justice Center was named:
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/paradigm.pdfShe claims Tahirih Justice Center is in Washington, DC when she knows damn well it is in Fairfax, VA (but you know Wash, DC sounds more “important” for a Bahai organization.)
Uh, they just moved there from Washington D.C. Fairfax is a suburb about fifteen miles away.
“Susan” claims to believe in women’s rights yet she refers to foreign women as “mail order brides” and International Friendship Services as “International Marriage Brokers” (a phrase coined by Layli Miller-Muro of the Tahirih Justice Center to get more taxpayer money.)
Really? Did she make up this sleezy website as well?
http://www.international-marriage-broker.com/services.shtml
After reading “Susan’s” posts, it is painfully obvious that she IS a queer lesbian Bahai feminist with an agenda.
You’re pretty sick, Frank, but thanks for this prime example of your misogyny. For you information the Baha’i Faith only approves of sex between a heterogeneously married couple. We do not allow either homosexual or polygamous relationships.
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University -
After looking at your photo Susan, I can see why you are so jealous of attractive, thin foreign women who are “taking” men away from you.
Lay off the twinkies and maybe normal non-Bahai men may find you attractive too.
The International Marriage Broker site you seem to think is so “sleazy” (correct spelling) is no different than Match.com or one of the Bahai International Marriage Brokers sites like two doves.com Nothing sleazy about the women they feature or the way they are presented by the service except in your biased perverted imagination.
Of course being a queer lesbian Bahai feminist, I can see why you would be offended. Hell there aren’t any queer lesbian Bahai feminists on that site and if there were their butts would take up the whole page of photos.
Ahh yes, Bahai lesbian posters with an agenda – propagandizing their Bahai Faith and hoping for the New World Order where all non-Bahais will become their sex slaves and support them so they don’t have to work..
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diego says:
Bahai… isn’t it britney spears’ religion?
Comment on “Bahai”.
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Susan,
It all depends what is right and what is wrong. It’s all a matter of perspection and largely where one survives – mental perspective in this case. My opinion merely questions the rationale.
But for now, I will take advantage of such rare sweetness in being regarded that I “seem” to be on the right side this time. LOL!
That is where the trouble begins and never fails to end. As I said yesterday, like children playing god, telling each other, “My god will beat up your god”. “Oh yeah?”, says the other defiantly, “and my god will beat up your god too.”
And poor God, slapping His Face one time for the first child, then slapping his Face again for the second child!
Honestly, I find the variety of Islamic sects/zeal hard to follow. So I shall leave it at that and they can beat up themselves till some reason prevails in the end, I hope.
Perhaps so, perhaps not so. From what I read, those who officiated the issue as reported in the IM article. were acting under the influence of the majority or whatever. The laws of the country was not adhered to and therefore they had their unlawful way to exert their minds on the new Bahai converts. That’s how I perceive it.