Bahai
Nov 1st, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslims converting to Bahai.
Thirty-one Muslims in the Donggala area of Central Sulawesi have become apostates and converted to the Bahá’à religion, it is said, inviting the anger of their neighbours who are sticking firm to Islam, and the displeasure of the local bureaucracy.
The head of the Religious Affairs Office in Palolo sub-district said that the Bahai faith, led by one Mulahi, a former marriage counsellor, entered Banpers village in the 1990s, and Mulahi had persuaded 31 local people to convert.
But some Muslims in the village are not taking it lying down:
The homes of the Bahai followers in Banpers are often pelted with stones.
Nor is the local government, which held a meeting between concerned Muslims and the Bahaists in September, 2007, wherein the Bahai adherents were warned to have a think about which religion they wanted to belong to, either Islam, like before, or another religion which was recognised by the government, because Bahai is not. Another meeting will be held soon, to find out whether the Bahaists have had enough thinking time. antara
The Department of Religion (Depag) has also sent down an investigative team, says Muhammad Ramli in Palu, and they will have to decide whether Bahai is a sect within Islam. If so, then the converts, or their leaders, can likely be prosecuted for blasphemy. Depag also wants to find out how Bahai has been spread in the area, because if it is being preached at people who already hold a religion, then that may also constitute a crime, he said. antara
November 8th. Two out of the seven households that converted to Bahai are said to have returned to Islam, after the two heads of the households, Mulahi (70) and Muslimin (40), met with local leaders. Four others refused to change back to Islam, while the seventh did not turn up. antara
395 Comments on “Bahai”
-
iamisaid says:
Susan,
I need to make a correction at the end of my post.
It shoud read:
but our hearts belong to God alone.
Really? What is God going to do with that pump?
Thanks.
-
Dear Iamisaid,
The reason I introduced those quotes from Baha’u’llah regarding government is because I do not want anyone to misunderstand my objections to the government authorities harrassing Baha’is for their conversion as agitation against the state. I think it is important therefore, to understand what the Baha’i Teachings on obedience to government are.
> I quote the Oxford English Dictionary which would be considered a neutral reference. However, you quote from the Bahai Faith doctrine which is not universally accepted as a reference for the meanings of English >words.
Actually I gave you a much fuller definition from an English Dictionary. Perhaps you missed this part?
1. Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
2. Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
3. Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.
4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
5. Worthy of respect; venerable.
6. Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices.Those were all simple dictionary definitions I snatched off the internet. They have nothing to do with Baha’i doctrine per se. If you google in the word “sacred, definition” I’m sure you will come up with the same thing.
What constitutes the sacred, however, is essentially a religious question and therefore can hardly be seperated from the doctrines of ones own faith. I extrapolated further on this issue of what constitutes the sacred mostly because your comment insisting that nothing was sacred but God, was essentially an accusation of shirk, which I take very seriously. And it was not, I might add, a very ‘secular’ position for you to take nor one that followed from a dictionary defintion of the ‘sacred.’
> It would be hilarious had I quoted you the meaning of the word “conscience” from a Cook Manual. You would have ridiculed it immediately.
The definition of conscience which I offered, namely “the sense of right and wrong as regards things for which one is responsible; the faculty or principle which pronounces upon the moral quality of one’s actions or motives, approving the right and condemning the wrong” was likewise a dictionary definition.
Susan
-
The reason I introduced those quotes from Baha’u’llah regarding government is because I do not want anyone to misunderstand my objections to the government authorities harrassing Baha’is for their conversion as agitation against the state. I think it is important therefore, to understand what the Baha’i Teachings on obedience to government are.
That being your position and rationale for quoting verses or whatever from Bahai does not support your intentions really.
Granted, you object to what the Government has done. Reflect for a moment, do you think by quoting Bahai would lend any effect to making it more sensible? Do you think that the Government would care to know or listen to what Bahai preaches? You are feeding more fuel to the flame.
Had you taken your objections and threw the vested democratic laws of the land at the Government’s face, that would have been a far more rational rebuttal.
1. Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
2. Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
3. Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.
4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
5. Worthy of respect; venerable.
6. Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices.Really now Susan. That’s some English Dictionary that would even mention Buddha, and bread and wine and the private office of the President being sacred. Even to mention venerable…
Of course it’s English because those are English words.
It appears to me to be some kind of Religious Dictionary in English.
But anways, the Oxford English Dictionary is widely accepted and regarded as the authority on the English Language. Americans would differ on that because their English is different, so they have their own standard.What constitutes the sacred, however, is essentially a religious question and therefore can hardly be seperated from the doctrines of ones own faith.
Exactly. And religious comes from the root word Religion. And the etymology of the word Religion comes from the Latin word, Religare. And Latin is a very precise language. Religare translated to English means a bond between an individual and God.
Hence, conscience of man by our discussion here which pertains to religious conscience is not something that either you or I are capable of even discussing it more than the secular understanding of what it means.To say that conscience is sacred, it is not. I have given my explanation on it. I do not wish to repeat.
Why do you throw in a red herring in the middle of your discussion by saying that
your comment insisting that nothing was sacred but God, was essentially an accusation of shirk, which I take very seriously.
Is that intended to throw me off balance by saying that in what I said about conscience it was accusing you of being a shirk? (I suppose you meant accusing you of being a shirk because you sentence is one of incomplete predication. It has a verb and a predicate but without a subject) How do you rationalise that without a fact to prove it?
So, this becomes personal with your serious stance that you have been accused of being a shirk. Show me, prove to me that I said so. And then I shall apologise with the proof.
I would like to think that you are capable in keeping a discussion without getting personal and not having to throw in what you imagine between my lines or your feelings.
-
iamisaid asks
“Do you think that the Government would care to know or listen to what Bahai preaches?”
Dear Iamisaid,
I think most governments are inclined to tolerate groups which are no real threat to to their power unless they are being pushed around by someone they have let become even more powerful, namely the clergy.
“Had you taken your objections and threw the vested democratic laws of the land at the Government’s face, that would have been a far more rational rebuttal.”
Unfortunately, I don’t know Indonesian law all that well. Government officials were saying that only certain religions are legally recognized in there. I don’t know whether that is true or false. What I do know is that governments have an obligation to protect the rights of minorities even if the majority don’t want to respect them. I do not think it is the busines of government to decide which religions should be ‘recognized.’
You wrote:
“Really now Susan. That’s some English Dictionary that would even mention Buddha, and bread and wine and the private office of the President being sacred. Even to mention venerable…”
I’ll give you the URL. http://www.answers.com/topic/sacred?cat=technology
You’ll see it is not a Baha’i source, nor is it a religious dictionary. It just what happened to pop up first on the internet.“So, this becomes personal with your serious stance that you have been accused of being a shirk. Show me, prove to me that I said so. And then I shall apologise with the proof.”
I said that your statement amounted to an accusation of shirk, not that you used the word. Shirk, as I’m sure you know means to join partners with God. And here is what you said:
“”I beg to differ. Abdu’l-Baha says that man conscience is sacred is utter rubbish. Respect for it; YES. Sacred? NO! To say such, it is tantamount to deifying man. Only God is sacred.”
Saying something is “tantamount to deifying man’ is saying it is tantmount to shirk.
warmet, Susan
-
Susan,
The word “shirk” means this :
shirk
“¢ verb avoid or neglect (a duty or responsibility).
“” DERIVATIVES shirker noun.
and not as how you understand it. And I quote you:
Shirk, as I’m sure you know means to join partners with God.
andddddd by what I said earlier and you quoted
“I beg to differ. Abdu’l-Baha says that man conscience is sacred is utter rubbish. Respect for it; YES. Sacred? NO! To say such, it is tantamount to deifying man. Only God is sacred.”
and remarked in your latest reply :
Saying something is “tantamount to deifying man’ is saying it is tantmount to shirk.
It is very clear that from the start, you fail to understand what the word shirk means.
To put things back in perspective on this issue you said:
was essentially an accusation of shirk, which I take very seriously.
wherein you used the words – accusation and seriously
It does not make my stating “I beg to differ” and “tantamount” anywhere close to being accusative. Let alone, what is transpiring between you and I are merely OPINIONS. Therefore, why should you take it seriously. Neither your life nor mine, nor your or my spiritual redemption is hanging by any result of this discussion.
The reference you chose to find the meaning of the word sacred is NOT a dictionary. Sorry about that but that a fact.
When you say thus:
Unfortunately, I don’t know Indonesian law all that well. Government officials were saying that only certain religions are legally recognized in there. I don’t know whether that is true or false. What I do know is that governments have an obligation to protect the rights of minorities even if the majority don’t want to respect them. I do not think it is the busines of government to decide which religions should be ‘recognized.’
Rule No. 1: Look before you leap
Rule No. 2: Return to Rule No. 1 when uncertain.That is why I advised you in my first reply:
Hi Susan,
You asked”¦.
Now how do we get governments to abide by such principles?
Perhaps one should take heed from Voltaire’s advice”¦
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong
Or
Wait for the day the Government is voted out only to be governed by another which proves the previous one was better.
because you had better know your stuff 100 percent before you make your first move with the Government, any Government.
-
Iamisaid wrote:
“The word “shirk” means this :
“¢ verb avoid or neglect (a duty or responsibility)”
LOL. I was speaking of the *Arabic* word shirk, not the English!
If you are not familiar with the Islamic concept of shirk, then never mind. I take it all back.
-
Pakmantri says:
The word shirk from wikipedia look up.
And I’ll say in an old Indonesian saying: “Kalian ini seperti rebutan pepesan kosong”. 😀
Peace.
-
Yo! Pakmantri,
Thanks for the foreign word reference.
And I’ll say in an old Indonesian saying: “Kalian ini seperti rebutan pepesan kosong”.
Bener lah Pak, gimana cara bicara begitu? Masih bicara Bahasa Inggris, termasuk lah bahasa asing pulak, kerupaan ejaan Inggris, tanpa tanda apa pun menunujukan nya. Ha ha ha ha.
Peace to you too!
-
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ iamisaid
… gimana cara bicara begitu?…
Both of you – Susan and yourself are both correct. English is the most complicated language.
-
Aluang A. Bayang,
English is the most complicated language.
Is that so?
Or is it not the case of people who are complicated make English or any other language for the same matter, the victim of their clutter?
Language being the tool of communication and the idiom that a poor workman always blames his tools.
-
@ iamisaid
The English language and the Quran have one similar feature.
Both are said to be easy to understand, but everyone can get their interpretation out of it.
-
@ iamisaid
The English language and the Quran have one similar feature.
Both are said to be easy to understand, but everyone can get their own interpretation out of it.
-
Both are said to be easy to understand, but everyone can get their interpretation out of it.
Oh ! so it is interpretation that you meant as being complicated and not the language in itself.
Well, that would just about apply to anything apart from English and the Quran.
But honestly, ease of understanding is something else again. Practically every person manipulates what is in print to support his/her own inclinations.
For example, like U.S. President Bush who most unashamedly said that he heard God speak to him and approved of his invasion of Iraq.
I can imagine the scenario while Bush was in deep prayer in his Church.
Kneeling or seated with his prayer book, he saw the printed words burst into flames and the smoke from the flames morphed into “IRAQ”.Something similar to how Moses on Mount Sinai saw a burning bush and heard the voice of God.
Bush had a similar reenactment. Then Bush started to hallucinate and could swear on the Bible that it was not just the flames that he saw, but he heard the Voice of God.
Behold we have an American prophet! Things have improved on the American continent even though speaking in Christian terms, God did not choose an American woman to be the mother of Jesus of Nazareth.
Ha ha ha ha
-
I am about to begin another “storm” with this, even though, I rarely involve myself with matters of Religion.
May I repeat – I rarely involve myself in matters of Religion. But what I am about to say is not typically a deep discussion of Religion per se. So, please don’t get me wrong and I do not have to sound apologetic either.
The reason why I refrain from being involved in religious matters, is because it always inflames emotions, to the detriment of human relations. At the end, no one is wiser for it.
I did a casual search on the Internet to enquire about the status of Religion in general and this is what I found at:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
Okay, now if anyone Bahaian here wants to start pelting me with bricks and stones, you are dishonoring your doctrine. However, if you wish to shut down that website I quoted, by all means do so because I do not own it. LOL!
At that website, it does NOT classify Bahai as a Religion.
Yeah ! here it comes….zinggggg – ~me ducks as the first brick is swung at me.
The website states a list of Religions and other classifications shown therein.
Religion Date Founded Sacred Texts Membership 5 % of World 6
Christianity 30 CE The Bible 2,039 million 32% (dropping)
Islam 622 CE Qur’an & Hadith 1,226 million 19% (growing)
Hinduism 1,500 BCE with truly ancient roots Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, & Rig Veda 828 million 13% (stable)
No religion
(Note 1)
– None 775 million 12% (dropping)
Chinese folk rel. 270 BCE None 390 million 6%
Buddhism 523 BCE The Tripitaka & Sutras 364 million 6% (stable)
Tribal Religions, Shamanism, Animism Prehistory Oral tradition 232 million 4%
Atheists No date None 150 million 2%New religions. Various Various 103 million 2%
Sikhism 1500 CE Guru Granth Sahib 23.8 million <1%
Judaism Note 3 Torah, Tanach, & Talmud 14.5 million <1%Spiritism 12.6 million <1%
Baha’i Faith 1863 CE Alkitab Alaqdas 7.4 million <1%
Confucianism 520 BCE Lun Yu 6.3 million <1%
Jainism 570 BCE Siddhanta, Pakrit 4.3 million <1%
Zoroastrianism 600 to 6000 BCE Avesta 2.7 million <1%
Shinto 500 CE Kojiki, Nohon Shoki 2.7 million <1%
Taoism 550 BCE Tao-te-Ching 2.7 million <1%
Other Various Various 1.1 million <1%
Wicca 800 BCE, 1940 CE None 0.5 million? <1%Notes: Note 1: Persons with no formal, organized religion include agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, secularists, etc.
Note 2: We have included Wicca even though their numbers are small because such a large percentage of our site’s visitors are of that faith. There is no reliable measure of their numbers. Some Wiccans believe that their faith can be traced back to the origins of the Celtic people; other suggest is is a recently created religion.
Note 3: There is no consensus on the data of founding of Judaism. Some claim that Adam and Eve were the first Jews, and lived circa 4000 BCE; others suggest that they never existed. Some would place the date at the time of Abraham, circa 1900 BCE; others consider Abraham to be a mythical character. Some date it to the Exodus from Egypt circa 1490 BCE; others say that no Exodus happened, and the ancient Hebrews were originally a group that gradually separated from the main body of Canaanites and developed a different culture.Or why not go directly to the website (link given above) and read it up if the above is too distorted to make sensible reading.
Or you could say, “to hell with that website, it ain’t worth a penny.”
Frankly, I do not care whatever the reaction is. I am merely proffering an opinion.
It classifies Bahai under Spiritism and not under Religion.
Now to go beyond that would entail establishing whether Spiritism is falls under the definition of Religion or not. And then establishing what Religion is by definition. Who this whole rigmarole of definitions and meanings would need an expert. And then again – would everyone abide by what the expert interprets.
Merely for consideration’s sake, if the expert says that Bahai is a Religion, the hailstorm of bricks and stones would cease immediately, I would not have to raise this post and in accordance with the laws of the land, the Indonesian authorities would have to take a recess, deliberate and provide a solution.
Perhaps therein lies one of the reasons (apart from a host of other reasons best known to the people who sanction its existence in Indonesia) why the Indonesian authorities have taken measures to oppose its practice in Indonesia.
Generally, in most countries, Governments are treats cults and sects with caution. It is through no fault of the Government really because repeatedly the existence of such groups have caused social problems and there have been proven incidents of ruin to people who have become members of cults and sects or whatever they are by any other given name.
Indonesia would not be the only country that imposes sanctions. Take Germany for example and its Government’s stance with Scientology. Now whether Scientology is regarded as a Religion is another matter. There are those that say it is and there are others who deny that it is. So regardless of whether Scientology is a Religion or a cult or whatever it deems itself, it is frowned upon by Germany.
As regards to the Laws in Indonesia with regards to the acceptance, existence and the practice of Religion and how it is legally expounded is beyond my capacity to comment.
-
@ iamisaid
Before you dodge too soon, where about on that site it classifies Bahai as Spiritism?
-
Before you dodge too soon, where about on that site it classifies Bahai as Spiritism?
Check the site again pal.
-
@ iamisaid
No need to dodge. It is religion alright.
From the same site you gave,
-
Aluang A. Bayang,
Oh yeah?
Spiritism
Baha’i Faith 1863 CE Alkitab Alaqdas 7.4 million <1%
-
Aluang A. Bayang,
May you’re correct.
On the homepage of that site it listed Bahai right under Spiritism and could be interpreted as one of several others that come under that heading.
But I also noticed that along Spiritism it gives the estimate of population of believers.
Therefore, it muddles the way it is being reported.
And, then again, whatever names are shown in the chart come under the title Religions of the World. So I guess, it includes Bahai amongst the others listed.
Just that the chart was somewhat confusing at my first reading.
Peace!
-
Dang my typo errors!
Maybe you’re correct.
-
@ iamisaid
LOL you can come out trench you dug. Your whole posting can be thrown out of the window.
-
Weeeeeeeeeeeeee cling! clang! klonnnnnggg!
There it goes.
~ removes his bullet proof vest, helmet and safety boots. draws out a marijuana stick and floats into paradise…..
-
YO! Aluang A. Bayang and All,
I have gone back into my trench once more. Ha ha ha.
I am still trying to understand WHY the followers of Bahai and the practice of the Bahai Faith faces the wrath of others in Indonesia.
My earlier suggestion and one that I later conceded was a result of having misread the Chart. It erroneously led me to think that Bahai was Spiritism. That is not a possible reason.
I can understand about Muslims in Indonesia not accepting that some numbers of their own Faith are converting to Bahai. For the Muslims and if I am not mistaken, in accordance with their doctrine of Islam, any Muslim who surrenders his/her belief in Islam is an apostate. I do not know what penalty is served on apostates by Islam’s religious law.
Perhaps the Indonesian reaction has something to do with the history of how Bahai was treated especially where it originated.
These readings report:
from: http://www.northill.demon.co.uk/bahai/intro9.htm
Although the Bahá’à Faith began in the Middle East, continued persecution in this region has severely limited its growth here. The Bahá’à Faith is banned in many Islamic countries and there have been sporadic persecutions in some of these countries such as Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Indonesia. The most notable case of persecution has been in the Islamic Republic of Iran, where the Bahá’Ãs are the largest non-Muslim religious minority.
Since the revolution of 1979, the Bahá’Ãs in Iran have been subjected to a relentless programme of persecution which has seen the leading Bahá’Ãs executed or driven into exile and the remaining Bahá’Ãs systematically looted of their property and stripped of all rights.
In some countries, such as Indonesia and Vietnam, the Bahá’Ãs came under persecution,from: http://www.overseasthinktankforindonesia.com/?p=103
When the Baha’i faith began in Persia in 1844, the Islamic regime sought to exterminate it. The Baha’i founder was imprisoned and executed in 1850. Two years later, the religious government massacred 20,000 Baha’is. Streets of Tehran were soaked with blood. The new Baha’i leader, Baha’ullah, was tortured and exiled in foreign Muslim prisons for the rest of his life.
I shall refrain from mentioning other readings in order to keep this post as brief as possible.
What puzzles me is this next reading. It very clearly reports the position of the Indonesian Government on the matter of the Bahai Faith and followers in Indonesia. Unless that position has be revoked, I am not aware.
from: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13873.htm
The Constitution provides for “all persons the right to worship according to his or her own religion or belief,” and states that “the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God” and the Government generally respects these provisions; however, there are some restrictions on certain types of religious activity and on unrecognized religions.
The Government has given official recognition in the form of representation at the Ministry of Religious Affairs to five major faiths–Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism and Buddhism.
In January 2000, former President Abdurrahman Wahid lifted the ban on the practice of Confucianism that had existed since 1967 and
in May 2000 a decree banning the Baha’i Faith and the Rosicrucians was lifted. In June 2001,
the Government lifted its ban on the Jehovah’s Witnesses. While only the five above-mentioned religions are officially recognized, the law also states that other religions are not forbidden.
and at the same URL
Legal/Policy Framework
The Constitution provides for “all persons the right to worship according to his or her own religion or belief,” and states that “the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God” and the Government generally respects these provisions; however, there are some restrictions on certain types of religious activity and on unrecognized religions.
The Ministry of Religious Affairs extends official status to only five faiths–Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Religious organizations other than the five recognized faiths are able to register with the Government, but only with the State Ministry for Culture and Tourism, and only as social organizations. This results in restrictions on certain types of religious activities and on religions with fewer domestic followers. While the Government had in recent years taken steps to normalize the status of Confucians and Jehovah’s Witnesses, it failed to accord them and members of other less-represented faiths equal treatment, in such areas as civil registration. Religions that are not permitted to register are precluded from renting venues to hold services. Any religion that cannot register is forced to find alternative means to practice their faith.
The Government permits the practice of the indigenous belief system of Kepercayaan, but only as a cultural manifestation, and not as a religion; followers of “Aliran Kepercayaan” must register with the Ministry of Education’s Department of National Education. Some religious minorities–specifically those of the Baha’i Faith and the Rosicrucians–were allowed to operate openly, following a May 2000 decree that lifted a ban on their activities. Other minority faiths such as Zoroastrianism, Shintoism and Taoism legally also are permitted.
Therefore, why are those who converted to Bahai are being treated as IM article on the matter reports:
a)
inviting the anger of their neighbours who are sticking firm to Islam, and the displeasure of the local bureaucracy.
b)
the Bahai adherents were warned to have a think about which religion they wanted to belong to, either Islam, like before, or another religion which was recognised by the government, because Bahai is not.
c)
The Department of Religion (Depag) has also sent down an investigative team, says Muhammad Ramli in Palu, and they will have to decide whether Bahai is a sect within Islam. If so, then the converts, or their leaders, can likely be prosecuted for blasphemy.
And one week later, those involved were reported as
November 8th. Two out of the seven households that converted to Bahai are said to have returned to Islam, after the two heads of the households, Mulahi (70) and Muslimin (40), met with local leaders. Four others refused to change back to Islam, while the seventh did not turn up.
Counter Religious coercion?
-
Iamisaid yth,
I have to agree with your son’s assessment of you now ………….. lol! 😀 ( with no disrespect )
Peace.
-
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Pakmantri,
I have to agree with your son’s assessment of you now “¦”¦”¦”¦.. lol! ( with no disrespect )
~scratching my forehead….
Now what did my son say about me?
YIKES ! blood dripping from my forehead…. HANDDDDDDY PLASTER PLSSSSSSS
-
> I have gone back into my trench once more. Ha ha ha.
Dear Iamisaid,
Well, it is good to see you seem to be on the right side this time. 🙂
> I am still trying to understand WHY the followers of Bahai and the practice of the Bahai Faith faces the wrath of others in Indonesia.
I think it all boils down to the fact that no religion wants to be superceded. As the Qur’an itself states:
“And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” Qur’án 40:34
> My earlier suggestion and one that I later conceded was a result of having misread the Chart. It erroneously led me to think that Bahai was Spiritism.
LOL. Not hardly. The Baha’i Faith has the same relationship to Islam that Christianity has to Judaism. Does that make sense? As Christians say the Messiah has come, so we say the Mahdi has come. But just as Jesus, the Messiah, was not the Five Star General the Jews were expecting so the Bab and Baha’u’llah are not the conquering heros expected by some Muslims who would go around killing pigs and breaking crosses. The Promised One who comes, is never the one expected. That’s why they kill him.
> I can understand about Muslims in Indonesia not accepting that some numbers of their own Faith are converting to Bahai. For the Muslims and if I am not mistaken, in accordance with their doctrine of Islam, any Muslim who surrenders his/her belief in Islam is an apostate. I do not know what penalty is served on apostates by Islam’s >religious law.
Some would argue that it carries the death penalty. How that can be reconciled with the Qur’anic statement, “there is no compulsion in religion” is beyond my comprehension. I think it is based on the fact that Muhammad ordered the executions of some of his followers who became traitors in the middle of battle. That’s an entirely different issue, but the ‘ulama treat it as though it is the same thing as someone born Muslim who later comes to believe in good conscience that another religion is truer.
>
> Perhaps the Indonesian reaction has something to do with the history of how Bahai was treated especially where it originated.I think it may have more to do with the spread of Wahhabism in Indonesia which made Muslims there intolerant whereas formerly they were quite open. Back in the 70’s Baha’is had no problems in your country, though usually they didn’t try and convert Muslims.
>
> What puzzles me is this next reading. It very clearly reports the position of the Indonesian Government on the matter of the Bahai Faith and followers in Indonesia. Unless that position has be revoked, I am not aware.It might possibly be a case of the national government’s policies not reaching certain local areas. But the ‘ulama put a lot of pressure on Islamic governments not to recognize the Baha’i Faith as a religion. There is a case in Egypt right now wherein Baha’is were not issued identity cards (required by law) because they were required to choose one of the recognized religions (which Baha’i was not.) They were not even permitted to leave that section blank. Of course, this means agnostics and atheists have no rights either. Then the courts decided Baha’is should be able to leave this blank. That caused a furor from al-Ahzar University which pressured the High Court into reversing this decision. At present Baha’is cannot obtain jobs, attend the university, get married, obtain health care, open bank accounts, or do anything else which requires an identification card in that country. Here we are talking about people who have been Baha’is for four generations, not ‘apostates’ from Islam.
A very courageous Muslim woman from Bahrain operates this website which provides information regarding the treatement of Baha’is in the Islamic world: http://www.bahairights.org/
warmest, Susan
-
@iamisiad,
I believe your son calls you, “my dear crazy old man” …………… ha ha ha.
-
Re,
I think it may have more to do with the spread of Wahhabism in Indonesia which made Muslims there intolerant whereas formerly they were quite open. Back in the 70’s Baha’is had no problems in your country, though usually they didn’t try and convert Muslims.
Formerly, Javanese had influences over these areas, when the True Islam is taught, there will be chaos. You should tell that to Pedo Dawud in ‘Learning Islam’. 🙂
-
Pakmantri,
I believe your son calls you, “my dear crazy old man” “¦”¦”¦”¦”¦ ha ha ha.
YA AMPUN! ya kah? KURANG AJARRRR anak tu!
I’m going to whup his ass!
Tulah Pak Mantri, sebagai Mentri Pendidikan, Republik Komodo (https://indonesiamatters.com/1540/letter-to-president/) tapi pendidikan di sekolah tak ajarin anak anak sekolah se cara yang betol.
Comment on “Bahai”.
Related Stories
Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2025
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact
Susan,
I shall not and I will not be drawn further into your Bahai oriented point-of-view discussion. Are you capable of holding a plain discussion without being dependent on your religious belief. You sound reasonably intelligent and you should spare from making a mockery of your talent
It does not matter to me what another person’s belief is.
Our discussion started from a simple secular issue to quote:
and it changed drastically to:
I have nothing against any religion.
I quote the Oxford English Dictionary which would be considered a neutral reference. However, you quote from the Bahai Faith doctrine which is not universally accepted as a reference for the meanings of English words.
It would be hilarious had I quoted you the meaning of the word “conscience” from a Cook Manual. You would have ridiculed it immediately.
Obviously, we are on different planes of discussion.
Allow me to tell you something that happened to me – if it makes any sense to you.
Several years ago, I had these 3 Chinese men who would visit my home and hold discussions that could circum the Earth 10 times. Their intention was very alike the way you hold your discussions with me. The only difference is that they were not of the Bahai Faith. They threw every ruse possible at me. Remember the famous quote that even the devil himself can quote the Scriptures?
Most of our discussions would last till past 3 in the mornings and totally wipe out the weekend they chose to arrive at my house. After several months of tailing me with their discourse, they disappeared without even saying a gentlemanly farewell. So much for being religious and not even being fundementally civic.
I am not here to criticise what you do and what you believe in.
I have to comment – one cannot run like a horse with blinders on and think that that is the way to proselyte, indoctrinate, make God known to others.
In fact is it is a mockery to be spreading one’s belief in religion as though God is powerless to do it by His own mysterious ways as opposed to those who believe in His existence who worship Him out of fear and mostly when they need an emotional support. Spiritual support? that they don’t need because they are so cocky with their own beliefs and that so many religions and cults have spawned and is still being spawed proves it.
I assume that when you say truth you are stating it from a point of religion.
You wish to investigate? I know that people search for the truth.
If you do not accept the Scriptures, Jesus for what he claims to be or the Christian faith, then just for one minute of reading, appreciate what I am about to relate merely as a story that comes from history books.
Jesus of Nazareth when queried by Pontius Pilate, said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”.
Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, “What is truth?”
There was no answer from Jesus. Simply because it is impossible to define God.
The truth is God. People search for truth from a religious inclination, are in search of God, Whoever it is conceived to be by man by his own belief, learning or inspiration.
Why do you need to investigate God?
but our hearts belong to God alone.