Women in Mosques
Sep 17th, 2007, in News, by PatungWomen are not allowed in the Sultan mosque in Ternate.
Women & Their Unholy Voices
While almost all mosques in Indonesia allow women to come inside and pray, although they have to sit behind the men, the Sultan mosque in Ternate, North Maluku (Maluku Utara, Malut) (map) is unique in forbidding women from entering.
Djafar, a local figure, explains:
Only men can pray in this mosque, women are not allowed. This is an old tradition and has never been broken.
The mosque’s cleric, Ridwan Dero, says the reason for the banning of women is to protect the holiness of the place:
If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.
There are no exceptions to the rule at any time.
Men & Their Holy Trousers
The men who come are required to wear long trousers – wearing of sarongs only is not sufficient – and they must also have the top of their heads covered by a kopiah or sorban.
Ridwan Dero explains that by wearing trousers the men show that they have truly prepared themselves to face God. Dero says that when men are standing up while praying, and wearing trousers, the position of their legs forms the words “lam alif“. Lam alif represents the two statements of the Muslim confession of faith, “there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet”. In this way men who wear trousers show in physical, visible form that they believe in the confession of faith.
Guards are on hand, perhaps similarly to those at the Baiturrahman mosque in Aceh, who advise men who arrive in only sarongs to go home and get changed, or just go to another mosque.
Similarly the wearing of headwear is required as a sign of respect to God. The guards have spare caps to lend to visitors should the latter have forgotten their head-wear. mediaindo
The Menara mosque in Semarang, Central Java, is another old mosque which does not allow women, although the reasons are not stated. It is used mainly by Indonesians of Arab descent. indosiar
219 Comments on “Women in Mosques”
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Korrill says:
@ Julita: Hm, many reasons ‘the answer I give you will be worthless’ this is a blog Korrill. You just want to play your game bad mouthing religions, the church, your chance, and not even being able to keep your words, sad indeed. A gentleman?
You still haven’t answered my question. And in case you forgot my condition: I hate stock answers. Your answer was as stock as they come.
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Hassan says:
Sylvester:
Jesus drank wine during the last supper in the Bible.
Well, according to the link below (it’s a Christian website) Jesus never drank alcoholic wine, only grape juice. The website also mentioned that some verses from the Bible discourage drinking wine because it’s destructive and a sin that can lead to many other sins.
Jesus said everything God created is good, including pork. What bad is come from bad human mouth.
First of all, I thought Jesus is God (according to Christian). Then perhaps he should’ve said “everything I created is good” instead of “everything God created is good” if he is God. Secondly, everything God created is good, but not ALL of them are good for the human body. How about poisons, thorns, acids, and stones? Those things were created by God too right? Should we eat/drink them? Why don’t you try eating/drinking those things! 馃榾
I have to say that aluang is better than you, Hassan, in debating.
Two things you should know:
1. I’m not here to win any debate contest
2. Aluang is not a Muslim, he’s a kejawen animist and an imposter who likes to sound like a Muslim. Actually, he is more on your team than mine, because he likes to say bad and untruthful things about Islam, just like you. -
Sylvester:
Sorry, here are the links:
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Odinius says:
Basically, what it comes down to is this: there is no objective way to say religion x is better than religion y. The only way to do it is by referring to religious texts, either positively or disparagingly.
However, there are plenty of ways to demonstrate, beyond all reasonable doubt, the depravity of human behavior in the name of any given religion. There is ample evidence that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and animists have all committed atrocities in the names of their faiths, or, even more commonly, just against people of other faiths.
Show me a religion and I will show you it’s a-hole fringe.
Time to get past the whole childish “my team is better than your team” ****. While we live, there’s no way to decide it. When we die, we find out. If anyone is right…
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Sylvester says:
Everything God created is good. However, if it is used in the wrong way then it is not good anymore. Acid or poison is something useful. You do not understand chemistry, do you hassan.
That source that you used is not academic, not neutral. It deducts from the idea that any alcohol is bad, just like moslem think pork is bad. You can find thousands of false Christian websites, which moslem happy to read.
Drinking alcohol is OK, as long as you can control your mind. No.1 is your heart & brain. Most European drink but in general they are OK. But try give alcohol to indonesian, you can imagine.
The problem is most of the indonesian morality is still poor. Islam today in indo is only a list of rules, but lacks the essence of good life. The main thing that intact in indo moslem mind is attack infidels. That’s why indonesian moslem are easily to be provoked, destroy others even within the same islam. -
Oigal says:
‘So, the conclusion is, women’s average age of adulthood somewhat differed throughout the ages. It might be 16-18 nowadays, but it was 9-12 in those days.’
What????????????…. In fact the age of puberty has been falling which the advent of better hygiene, nourishment and health.
The concept of child marriage and sex is repugant in any context and how any honorable, educated person could try and defend such a thing from any era (be it for political, religious or any other reason) in this day and age shows how far humanity has yet to go.
Meanwhile, not that I am big supporter of the christian faith by any means but
1. Circumcision. Jesus was circumcised at the age of 8 days.
2. Prohibition of alcohol. Jesus never drank alcoholic beverages. Ever.
3. Prohibition of pork. Jesus never ate pork or swine’s meat in his life.Where on earth does this guy get his information from
“The Big Book Of Twisted Myths”
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Ihaknt says:
Everything God created is good. However, if it is used in the wrong way then it is not good anymore
It’s HUMANS who turn it into bad. HUMANS with their flaws and greed.
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Ihaknt, I completely agree with you. Irrational anger, rational greed, etc. That’s the snake in the garden for you: human nature.
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Sputjam says:
Adam was human.
He succumb to the devil’s whisper, and disobeyed God’s order, and was banished to earth.
Adam was not asked to worship God in the heavens. God has no need for anyone to worship Him. He was the sustainer. Adam was merely asked to stay away from a tree.
The holy books, in its purest form mentioned similar things. Stay away from evil and do good works of righteousness. No mention of worship rituals.
Holy books in its purest form are to be our guide. But if it is corrupted, then we wil have to use our common sense and seek God for guidance.
You can seek God anywhere, at anytime and facing in any direction.
The devil will make acts of ritual worship seems pleasing to mankind. (see stories regarding these in any koranic translated materials. it was mentioned more than once).
If you indulge in ritual worship, you will be making the same mistake as adam. -
Janma says:
Hassan said;
“Aluang is not a Muslim, he’s a kejawen animist and an imposter who likes to sound like a Muslim. Actually, he is more on your team than mine, because he likes to say bad and untruthful things about Islam, just like you.”ooh…. are we having teams now? Can I be on a team pleeze!? Pick me!
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Augusto says:
Ooh, it is you again Hassan, the good muslim who likes calling names and playing taqiyya (dissimulation). You rather resort to ad hominem than to refute my claims against your beloved pedo-moh pbuh and his sock puppet allah.
The thing is, I loved the news about Indonesia in this blog, but it’s rather irritating to have your faith insulted every other time. Wouldn’t you feel the same way if yours were constantly harassed by ignorant people?
Why do you have to feel irritated and insulted if what we say is not true? Good muslims always like to quote that beautiful verse “truth shall stand apart from error”, and their faith are very so strong, so why don’t you apply that verse to what we are doing so we will learn a good lesson from you? Or maybe you rather wage jihad and issue some killing fatwas on us? I don’t mind if someone criticized my faith, only through that we will become more matured and enlightened. I will admit if there is something wrong with my faith.
Your rantings are not original. I bet you copy pasted the whole lot. It was just some standard Islam bashing rhetorics which can be found in any anti-Islam websites and had been refuted and was proven incorrect by Muslims over and over again
I copy paste hadith and quranic verses and you call it rantings and un original? Or may be you want to show me which whole lot that I copy paste? Yes I did misplace a verse 65.4 (about waiting period after divorce for remarriage) in my reply to korril, it should have been placed somewhere else.
Why don’t you yourself refute my islam bashing rehotics rather than giving all those links to all those bias Islamic websites who are trying to white wash islam? Btw the websites you gave me: http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm has also been refuted by this site: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/pedophilia.htmAnyway why do good muslims like to take something that is very bad that non muslims have ever done to justify all your deeds? You take/compare a horny priest to justify your pedo moh marrying 6 yr old aisha! My dear what has gone wrong with muslims brain nowadays? Good muslims are beginning to get frustrated from what I see.
Your good jihadists brothers osama and the like behead kuffar, do suicidal bombings every where around the world as if it is a daily sport. Now, will you agree if the kuffar do likewise to muslims? Of course kuffar wont be stupid enough to do suicidal bombings, because they know they wont get that 72 virgins like muslims do.
Non muslims learn from mistakes and reformed, but good muslims always want to go back and repeat all those crazy times during moh period. Dreaming of that Islamic caliphacy and the umma. While the majority bad-muslims are just sitting on the fence enjoying the show or probably doing some apologizing for their jihadists bros for killing kuffar. -
This forum is kinda mess up now. I dont know whose comments are for whom sometimes.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Hassan said
Faithfreedom and those similar organizations had deceived you and turned you into a zombie bigot and made you think that you are doing the right thing, while you’re just causing mischief and frivolity in view of peace and harmony in the society.
I never visited Faithfreedom before you pointed it out to me. I noticed that the site contains predominantly testimonies of apostate Muslims. They only confirmed the opinion that I had made of Islam after reading the Qur’an and ahadith in the aftermath of the Bali bombings.
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Julita says:
Jlta: Korrill on second thought, why should I care whatever you believe or not believe, not my business as long as you don’t talk nonsense, because you don’t find it now, only when you leave this earth.
I will return to comment on your irrational posting. -
@Korrill
Thank you for your post of September 23rd, 2007 at 10:08 pm
It’s very interesting to notice the simililarities between the three dualistic monothe脙炉st religions that originated in the Middle East. -
Korrill: Slavery was not abolished by the church. Far from it, it was supported by the church.
Jlta: How ignorant you are, study the 10 commandments. Read Jesus’ teaching of love. You keep repeating the same thing all with your posting. If people do as they wish, even when they are Christians, it doe not mean that the CHURCh support them. Oh, my, hopeless.
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Augusto wrote:
Btw the websites you gave me: http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm has also been refuted by this site: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/pedophilia.htm
My god…are you so blind that you can’t see the ridiculousness of this statement?
“My answering your faith site is better than your answering my faith site.”
Pathetic, really. Both of them. This is why there’s no real dialogue between faiths today and why the internet does more damage to peaceful coexistence than it does good.
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Jlta: The same here I don’t which is where anymore, anyway I would like to response on the repeated matter which Korrill post. To, if people cannot work together, fight which other then still discussion is needed. The following is the council of Nicea, what they talk about and who participated. It was in the year 325 and korril want to drag this issue (the consequences) to 1000 years later. I think that is too much, and anyway I did post on Crusades, Inquisition and Holocaust. Just look it up in this blog.
The First Council of Nicaea
First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325 on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (Arianism). it was evident that the quarrel had gone beyond the possibility of human control.. This discord, and the war which soon broke out between Constantine and Licinius, added to the disorder and partly explains the progress of the religious conflict during the years 322-3. Hosius of Cordova, his counsellor in religious matters, bore the imperial letter to Alexandria, but failed in his conciliatory mission. Seeing this, the emperor, perhaps advised by Hosius, judged no remedy more apt to restore peace in the Church than the convocation of an ecumenical council.Date 325
Accepted by Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy,Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicanism, LutheranismPrevious council none considered ecumenical
Next council First Council of Constantinople
Convoked by Constantine I
Presided by St. Hosius of Cordova and St. Alexander of Alexandria
Attendance 250-318 (only five from Western Church)
Topics of discussion Arianism, celebration of Passover (Easter), Miletian schism, validity of baptism by heretics, lapsed Christians
Documents and statements Original Nicene Creed and about 20 decreesThe emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea.
The year 325 is accepted without hesitation as that of the First Council of Nicaea.
First Nicaea. All the collections of canons, whether in Latin or Greek, composed in the fourth and fifth centuries agree in attributing to this Council only the twenty canons, which we possess today. Of these the following is a brief r脙漏sum脙漏:脗路 Canon 1: On the admission, or support, or expulsion of clerics mutilated by choice or by violence.
脗路 Canon 2: Rules to be observed for ordination, the avoidance of undue haste, the deposition of those guilty of a grave fault.
脗路 Canon 3: All members of the clergy are forbidden to dwell with any woman, except a mother, sister, or aunt.
脗路 Canon 4: Concerning episcopal elections.
脗路 Canon 5: Concerning the excommunicate.
脗路 Canon 6: Concerning patriarchs and their jurisdiction.
脗路 Canon 7: confirms the right of the bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy certain honours.
脗路 Canon 8: concerns the Novatians.
脗路 Canon 9: Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.
脗路 Canon 10: Lapsi who have been ordained knowingly or surreptitiously must be excluded as soon as their irregularity is known.
脗路 Canon 11: Penance to be imposed on apostates of the persecution of Licinius.
脗路 Canon 12: Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius in his war on the Christians.
脗路 Canon 13: Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons in danger of death.
脗路 Canon 14: Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had weakened under persecution.
脗路 Canon 15: Bishops, priests, and deacons are not to pass from one church to another.
脗路 Canon 16: All clerics are forbidden to leave their church. Formal prohibition for bishops to ordain for their diocese a cleric belonging to another diocese.
脗路 Canon 17: Clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.
脗路 Canon 18: recalls to deacons their subordinate position with regard to priests.
脗路 Canon 19: Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul of Samosata who wished to return to the Church.
脗路 Canon 20: On Sundays and during the Paschal season prayers should be said standing.Several days later the emperor commanded that a final session should be held, at which he assisted in order to exhort the bishops to work for the maintenance of peace; he commended himself to their prayers, and authorized the fathers to return to their dioceses. The greater number hastened to take advantage of this and to bring the resolutions of the council to the knowledge of their provinces.
The Council of Nicaea was historically significant because it was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[2] “It was the first occasion for the development of technical Christology.”[2] Further, “Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church.”[2] With the creation of the Nicene Creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general councils to create a statement of belief and canons which were intended to become
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Correction: Many documents, ONE language. The early manuscripts were all written in greek. What was different was the dogma each had. To give you a more simple perspective:
Jlta: My file says, original languages of the Bible could Hebrew, Armaic, Greek
_________________Korrill: Christians who had NO belief in a human Jesus:
Docetists: “Jesus was God himself, disguised as a man.”
Valentinians: “Jesus as a symbol: Resurrection from Ignorance”
Marcionites: “2 Gods, Jesus Beamed Down”娄”
Manicheans: “The Spirit Can’t be Trapped”娄”
Christians who believed in a human Jesus but had NO belief in his divinity:Jlta: Human has free will and mind, they can say even worse than that, the Judases. We hear and see it at the present time, it is human, Korrill.
______________-Korrill: Basilidians: “Jesus Not Crucified “娄”
Jlta: I did discussed this before, they said that Judas was on the cross instead of Jesus, but they forgot that Judas comiited suicide by hanging himself on a tree.
____________________Ebionites: “Christ a man chosen by God on whom the Holy Spirit rested and made divine.”
___________________________
Korrill: Christianity did not originate from one belief before branching off into different sects. It started off with different sects which was forcefully united under one creed. And with this as the case, how can you be sure that the bible that you read now is really the truth and that the other books described as heretic were really lies?Jlta: Before Jesus’ time, the believe was not called Christianity.
________________________
Korrill: The bible (holy scriptures) did not define the council of Nicea. The council of Nicea defined the bible.Jlta: I think the scriptures were written already starting 50 A,D, and Nicea 325
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Julita: You still haven’t engaged with the declaration of Arianism as a heresy and the subsequent persecution of Arian Christians that resulted from the Council of Nicea.
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Is Nicea some kind of a beauty cream?
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Korrill: Slavery was not abolished by the church. Far from it, it was supported by the church.
Jlta: How ignorant you are, study the 10 commandments. Read Jesus’ teaching of love. You keep repeating the same thing all with your posting. If people do as they wish, even when they are Christians, it doe not mean that the CHURCh support them. Oh, my, hopeless
Perfect example of what I said about you basing all your answers on the bible or what priests or missionaries tell you. Why don’t you try looking at some history books before you answer my posts. Then we’ll see who’s ignorant. (BTW, the passage I used in the church’s justification for slavery was from the bible.)
My file says, original languages of the Bible could Hebrew, Armaic, Greek
You should read more. Your data is not full. Original languages of the bible:
Old Testament: Aramaic and Hebrew.
New Testament: Greek.
In the council of Nicea, they used the Septuagint translations – all written in Greek.
Jlta: Human has free will and mind, they can say even worse than that, the Judases. We hear and see it at the present time, it is human, Korrill.
Great! We’re now at name-calling. Is that the best you can do? You still don’t get the point, do you? Here’s the simplest explanation I can give: “Unified Christianity” was the result of a council that supported one out of numerous views on what the nature of Jesus would be. After achieving that consensus, they proceeded to persecute all others who believed differently.
Jlta: I did discussed this before, they said that Judas was on the cross instead of Jesus, but they forgot that Judas comiited suicide by hanging himself on a tree.
The point of this was not about who was on the cross or how did a person die. The point of bringing this up was to show that prior to the council of Nicea, there was no consensus on what Jesus really was. Your error in this one was comparing the post to current texts. They will not agree because, like I said, the sect was declared heretical only AFTER the council of Nicea. (P.S. You should look up how Judas died. I never knew a man could die more than once.)
Ebionites: “Christ a man chosen by God on whom the Holy Spirit rested and made divine.”
Yes. But a man, nonetheless, which contradicts the Catholic dogma that Jesus was of the same substance, and therefore equal, with God.
Jlta: Before Jesus’ time, the believe was not called Christianity.
Of course not. Before Jesus’ time, there was basically Judaism and the other religions of the Roman, Greeks, etc. But after Jesus’ time, there came the sects of Arianism, Manicheanism, the Ebionites, Docetists, Basilidians, Orthodox, etc. All creeds which professed to be Christian but having different interpretations of what Jesus was. And after that came the council of Nicea – and the persecutions – and you have what is known as modern day christianity.
Jlta: I think the scriptures were written already starting 50 A,D, and Nicea 325.
True. But the council of Nicea decided on what scriptured would be included and what would be deemed heretical. The gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were accepted whereas the Shepherd of Hermas, the gospel of Thomas were not. Get the picture?
And as for your posting regarding the council of Nicea, one does not need to read further than the statement:
Accepted by Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy,Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicanism, Lutheranism.
to know that data has been sanitized to show the council in a positive light. Look for a more neutral source – ONE THAT PRESENTS ALL THE FACTS AND IS NOT BIASED.
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@ dewaratugedeanom:
Thank you for your post of September 23rd, 2007 at 10:08 pm
It’s very interesting to notice the simililarities between the three dualistic monothe脙炉st religions that originated in the Middle East.Glad to be of service.
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One question,
If the Bible was corrupted during the Council of Nicaea, then why there is nothing in Quran states about that? Why Quran still refers Bible/Injeel as a holy scripture? We’re talking about 300 years in difference. -
Hassan said
2. Prohibition of alcohol. Jesus never drank alcoholic beverages. Ever.
If Jesus was in favor for prohibition of alcohol then why did he perform a miracle turning water into wine at the wedding in Kanaan?
In Catholic ritual wine is even turned into Jesus’ blood.Several scientific studies have proven that moderate quantities of wine or other alcoholic beverages have therapeutic and prophylactic effects. Some places in Italy with a tradition of daily drinking red wine combined with other nutritional habits, have an uncommon number of centenarians.
Except for Dr. Muhammad’s prescriptions nothing wrong with wine per se it seems to me.
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Nowhere in the Quran, if I’m not mistaken, does it say you can’t drink alcohol. This is the only passage on the subject:
al-Baqarah 2:219
They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: “In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit.”
That’s not a prohibition, it’s a warning.
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@ Sylvester: If the Bible was corrupted during the Council of Nicaea, then why there is nothing in Quran states about that? Why Quran still refers Bible/Injeel as a holy scripture? We’re talking about 300 years in difference.
In a manner of speaking: The development of the Islamic Qur’an followed the same basic history as that of Christian Bible. It was formed from the combination of Judaism and the beliefs of some of the existing forms of Christianity during that time (many of the christian sects who were persecuted by the Orthodox Church found a more safe and welcoming environment among the Arabian caliphs).
And just as the christians formed their official biblical canon (compilation) in the second century, so did the muslims form their official islamic canon (compilation) sometime during the seventh century.* **
* Some say the first compilations were from the time of Muhammad. However, the earliest records about compilation are from Ibn Said (844), Bukhari (870) and Muslim (874).
** If I made any mistake with my dates of compilation, feel free to correct me.
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korill said:
many of the christian sects who were persecuted by the Orthodox Church found a more safe and welcoming environment among the Arabian caliphs
For many early Christians, it was easier to live under a non-Christian regime to which you paid a tax to be left alone than live under a Christian state and religious authority that would persecute, exile and even kill you for “heresy.”
The parallels between the political structure of the post-Nicea Church and many Muslim societies today are quite profound. I’m sure Ahmadiyya would prefer living in India than Pakistan, for example.
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Jlta: It will take a long time to study the history, I got only Sejarah Umum and religion, and they do not mix. We’ll see as time permits.
Comment on “Women in Mosques”.
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@ dewaratugedeanom: I am aware of that fact. But were you aware also of the fact that in the bible is written:
“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you.
You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.
You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness.” – Leviticus 25.44
Furthermore:
By the time the Church came to power it was already a major slave owner, preserving at least one aspect of ancient Roman civilization. But what the Church rapidly jettisoned were pagan Rome’s laws concerning the rights of slaves and the possible attainment of their freedom. Slavery in Christendom was for life.
As early as 340 the Church Council of Gangra (today’s 脙鈥nkiri in Turkey), in reaction to rival Manicheans urging slaves to free themselves, adopted as law a slave’s “Christian obligation” to submit to the authority of the slave master “as if to God“. The Council decreed:
“If anyone, on the pretext of religion teaches another man’s slave to despise his master, and to withdraw from his service, and not to serve his master with good will and respect, let him be anathema.”
Slavery was not abolished by the church. Far from it, it was supported by the church. It was only through the act of Abraham Lincoln and the Northern states was slavery considered evil and a violation of human rights. (BTW, this act by Lincoln caused the American Civil War.)