Live In Programs
Sep 5th, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslim-Christian live-in programs.
Religious Violence
In some of the last years of General Suharto’s rule, around 1996-97, the province of East Java saw a sharp upturn in instances of anti-Christian violence, resulting in about 100 churches being burned down or vandalised, about 20 of them on a single day in October 1996 in the town of Situbondo.
A Catholic church burns in Situbondo.
A minister from the Jawi Wetan church (GKJW) in Malang, Reverend Gunawan, says these events, which:
started in Pasuruan and had their climax in Situbondo
caused him to wonder
it was strange, people who had lived together peacefully for so long became so angry
and resulted in him meeting with various Muslim clerics in Malang and arranging a live-in program in which young Muslims would spend some time sharing the home of a Christian family, and young Christians would stay at Islamic boarding schools, to gain understanding of life on the other side of the sectarian divide,.
Living In
Gunawan says that when Christians go to live with Muslims they learn that:
There are a lot of positives about Islamic boarding schools, they’re not all terrorist breeding grounds.
The live-in program began under the auspices of the Balewiyata Theological Institute in Malang. Former director of the Institute, Suwignyo, says the government insists on pigeon-holing and labelling people as belonging to one religion, and encourages them to live according to that religion’s precepts, but there is no reason he says why there can’t be mixing and communication across the boundaries.
The program is held once a year, in February, and live-in volunteers participate in all aspects of the host families’ activities, including going to church or mosque. On the Muslim side the program is run by the Shiratul Fuqoha school, which is owned by the family of Muhammad Najib Ghoni, usually called Gus Najib.
Mission & Jihad
Gus Najib says the program has helped lessen his suspicions about Christianization:
Maybe from living-in I can find out whether Christianization is really happening, I can see how Christians get their funds and whether it is true they get back-up funds from the West. I used to think that was happening, but they welcomed me and they answered every question that I asked. I even sat in on their church councils.
One Muslim volunteer, Mas’ut Zakaria, a student from the Shiratul Fuqoha school, says getting to know some Christians brings about a feeling of solidarity with them and makes it much less likely that he will be easily provoked when problems between the two communities arise.
While Muslims worry about Christianization attempts, specifically on the Christian use of the word mission, Christians often worry about Islam and violence, or the Muslim use of the word jihad. Suwignyo says however the program has enabled Christians to learn that not all understandings of “jihad” are bound up in violence.
Un-Islamic
Gus Najib says of the program’s effects on him:
We are all a part of a much wider whole, how can we cut ourselves off from that whole? The point is in the world there is not just Islam, and there are many types of Islam, just as there are many types of non-Islam. We must not wish that the whole world become a part of Islam, that is against the law of God.
But some of Gus Najib’s friends, even those since childhood, accuse him of having lost his “Islamicness”, and even threaten him, and oppose the program fiercely.
Un-Christian
On the other side Suwignyo says he sometimes has trouble finding church members who are willing to take Muslims into their homes.
Success
On the whole however he says the program has been a success and has now expanded to include those of other faiths such as local Buddhists and Hindus. ranesi
71 Comments on “Live In Programs”
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Assalamualaikum mas Hassan,
What brand od Islam you are espousing if ‘Science is not Islam’? ref: Islam is Science
Salam.
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Janma says:
Augusto said;
“Lets call a spade a spade khaleel!”
I have now taken to calling my spade by the name Spade Khaleel, it has much more of a ring to it don’t you think?
Janma
*having a little laugh*Hassan.
We don’t know all of science yet, we don’t have all the answers yet, still looking no? In your way it’s all answered, no need to look further. I hate that. God is a nice neat explanation that has even less evidence to support it, you don’t know why the universe developed the way it did, so you speculate “It must be God”.
What if the universe is God? What if God the universe operates through the laws of nature and physics, what if physics is the nature of God? It’s all too big for us to understand, maybe keep looking. -
Augusto says:
Dear St. Khaleed,
Thank you for your long reply. Now I know you are a pious Christian. Those fancy verses you quoted from your bible are very nice and soothing to hear. It even say “blessed are those being insulted, persecuted and tortured in the name of jc, turn the other cheek and love thy enemy” and all that. Well, only if all Christian were to take full advantage of those verses and emulate jc, then this world would be a very very wonderful place to live in. But on the contrary, islam instructs muslims to beahead, torture and kill kuffar if they resist islam or insult mohammad! If all muslims were to emulate mohammad and his sock puppet allah, then we will all be living hell on earth.
What I am trying to say is “know who you are dealing with”. You can preach all that fancy verses to those good old moms and pops on Sundays, but it is inapplicable in the real world. On the contrary beheading and terrorizing is much more applicable to subjugate the kuffar nowadays. Do you still remember what happened to the south Korean missionaries? They have the same intension as yours, go to afghan and preach “love, peace and tenderness” to Osama and Zawahiri. Very noble! But what happened? The leader of the unit, a priest and one of his disciples were killed. Why”¦? Because they are being foolish and ignorant of islam! They thought they could go up there armed with a handful of fancy verses from the bible and save the world. And look what happened to the remainder of the missionaries after being released. They cry on tv non-stop! Do you think they feel blessed after the ordeal? Do you think they would want to go on an evangelical tour like that again? It costs the Korean govt money and reputation. That is what you get for your “love thy enemy” and “turn on cheek”. If you think dealing with jihadist by appeasing and turning cheeks will work, all these madness would not have happened in the first place. Or may be you are telling kuffar to just surrender and be subjugated, then peace will be achieved? Those Koreans learnt a lesson, they would think thrice before even going to aceh to preach “love and cheeks” now. So should you reverend Khaleel.
Finally you asked:
It’s good talking with you Augusto. May I ask what your stance is on the whole issue? Can you please tell me also, what is your nationality and religion (including if you are atheist / agnostic)?
What matters is what I say, not who I am.
You said:
One more thing, I am replying to you because I believe that you’re wanting to engage in honest discussion. If you are one of those people who are posting under different names and attempting to trap me, please advise so that I can stop replying.
Likewise.
Btw, about Ishmael being the great grand father of moh in the ot is never mention. They, and you only believe(not fact) that arabs were descendant of Ishmael. Any way muslims always said the bible has been tampered and corrupted by jews and Christians. So why should they refer to the ot to prove Ishmael is the gg father of moh if it is corrupted. And then where did all those malays, Chinese and aborigin came from? Could they claim isaac was their gg father too? Or maybe they just drop down from the sky?
Onemore thing, I believe that you believe in the story when god became so frustrated and mad with his creation that he sent all the water to kill all his creation, but only noah with his ridiculous boat survived. Correct me if I am wrong, you are the one who made me read the bible, so I will have more questions in the future. That is if you dont mind.
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Daniel Khaleel says:
Thanks Augusto.
First off, let’s be upfront. Talk to me in the same respect that you’d like to be spoken to. Try and avoid the sarcasm.
In response to your comments and questions and sarcasm –
Now I know you are a pious Christian
I am not a pious christian. infact I find the christian walk to be very difficult and i fail in many ways. but i keep getting up and trying again. this is harder and tougher than taking the easy way out and rampaging on everyone who hurts or offends me, only to receive the rampage back in return and then find myself in a never ending cycle.
“Well, only if all Christian were to take full advantage of those verses and emulate jc, then this world would be a very very wonderful place to live in”
Exactly!
What I am trying to say is “know who you are dealing with”. You can preach all that fancy verses to those good old moms and pops on Sundays, but it is inapplicable in the real world.
I know who I am dealing with. I will say unapologetically, this is applicable in the real world. I have seen it and continue to see it daily. You are very mistaken if you believe that I am a Sunday mom and pop Christian. Nothing infuriates me more than seeing and hearing people mock this message and mock my friends who risk their lives daily to live out the message and serve others. One brother who lives in voluntary poverty in a Bangkok slum has had a knife and gun at his throat and head on separate occasions, yet he presses on. Other friends live with open door policy in the worse street in Melbourne where drug addicts and sex workers may come in to escape the pain they suffer each day. I am connected to a woman in Iraq who is at the top of every insurgents hit list due to her servant activities in Iraq. Two families were executed for hiding her. Yet she presses on. She knew the risks. They knew the risks, yet they continue to live out this message.
The message we preach is peace and hope. I will preach it to who ever is open. I will also live it. Don’t assume that you know me or my type. there are those out there who take the message seriously and have seen it work.
Do not assume that you can put me into a basket called “pious”. Much of my lifestyle would be considered very unpious by the saints.
I don’t think that the Koreans in afghanistan really knew what they were getting into. I don’t condemn them for their action, but they may have lacked judgement. I will go to an extreme above them. Many missionaries that I am aware of who travel to Afghanistan kiss their families good bye because they are prepared to die for the message of peace. They go, even knowing that they may never return. These people deserve respect. But even though they may never get the respect from you, God will reward them.
What matters is what I say, not who I am.
That sounds arrogant, but I’ve probaly misunderstood your tone. Let me know straight – are you open for discussion or do you just want to voice your opinion?
They, and you only believe(not fact) that arabs were descendant of Ishmael.
History taught me this, not Bible Study. I understand that Arabs claim Ishmael as their ancestor. If I’m mistaken, provide reference to the contrary. I’m willing to accept when I’m wrong.
Onemore thing, I believe that you believe in the story when god became so frustrated and mad with his creation that he sent all the water to kill all his creation, but only noah with his ridiculous boat survived.
This is the type of thing that we discuss in my house meetings. After God had done this, He made a promise that he would never do it again.
The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. (Genesis 8:21)so I will have more questions in the future. That is if you dont mind.
I don’t mind at all. If you are looking sincerely, I will try my best to help. But I’ll also admit when I don’t have the answer. Just be patient if you don’t get a reply in due time… there are many things going on.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I do value your questions, because it tells me that your struggling with these issues.
Daniel.
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Augusto,
Just an extra comment…
Everything that I said above is not there for argument sake. I don’t care if I lose an argument (even better, I don’t want to enter into argument). I don’t care what your opinion is of me either. I just want others to know that living the kind of life that Jesus instructs is not for the pious, but it’s for anyone and everyone who will dare to try it. All of the illustratoins that I have used so far involve normal people seeking to live a life less ordinary – a full life.
This kind of life will work no matter what religion you are. You don’t need to forsake your culture to live a God honoring life and love your neighbour as yourself.
Daniel.
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Dear Khaleel,
I see you are a very serious person, and I find some of your comments to be contradicting. You yourself said:
I am not a pious christian. infact I find the christian walk to be very difficult and i fail in many ways. but i keep getting up and trying again. this is harder and tougher than taking the easy way out and rampaging on everyone who hurts or offends me, only to receive the rampage back in return and then find myself in a never ending cycle.
You know all those verses you quote from the bible are very difficult if not impossible to apply, but you are telling people to just have faith in it. Dont you ever doubt on anything that says in the bible? Having faith is one thing, but believing in something blindly could be dangerous. Most good muslims believe in islam blindly, no matter how cruel or silly the teaching is, they believed it is from allah and he knows best without any doubt. This is what happened when jihadist believe they will go meet their 72 virgins in paradise for killing kuffar. Do you think that is dangerous?
You said you know who you are dealing with and your way of dealing with them is effective. Well it is yet to be seen. All I know is more and more people are dying in the hands of the jihadists.
You are very mistaken if you believe that I am a Sunday mom and pop Christian. Nothing infuriates me more than seeing and hearing people mock this message and mock my friends who risk their lives daily to live out the message and serve others
Now you are furious because I said something about moms and pops, please remember that verse ” blessed those being persecuted and all that”.
History taught me this, not Bible Study. I understand that Arabs claim Ishmael as their ancestor. If I’m mistaken, provide reference to the contrary. I’m willing to accept when I’m wrong.
What history? Yes arabs claim ishmael was their ancestors, but I dont see that in the bible. Futher more they said the bible is corrupted why then they should believe in all that? I will read more of the history, and will get back to you with more questions on isaac and ishmael, remember I am new on bible so take it easy on me now.
The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. (Genesis 8:21)
Oh dear! What kinda god is that, if it were you who said something like that I would understand. We are talking about god. The almighty. How can he create something without knowing the outcome?
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Hi again Augusto,
I posted a comment using my new nick (mangobear) and it got placed in moderation. I can’t wait for it to be released, so I’ll post it again. From now on, when you see mangobear, it is me.
I don’t see where I have contradicted myself in the comment that you quoted, however I don’t think that I’m immune to contradiction. I’m sure I’ve done it lots.
You keep saying that the verses that I quote are impossible to apply. I keep suggesting that they are not. through our own strength it is impossible. but as a follower of christ, we don’t need to rely on our own strength. we have help from God. We call this help His Holy spirit. We find our strength to endure and do these things through Christ. But then we can always look to the bible again and find the answer. Many things are impossible with our own strength, but nothing is impossible for God. I’d love to sit with you and discuss these face to face, but in absence of that luxury, I’ll point you to some Bible verses – Matthew 19:16-26;Ephesians 1:18-20;Philippians 4:13. I’m always afraid to quote scripture because they must be read in context and with the guidance of the Spirit of God.
Dont you ever doubt on anything that says in the bible? Having faith is one thing, but believing in something blindly could be dangerous.
This may come as a shock (because I am so pious 🙂 ), yes, I challenge what I read. I wrestle with it.
If tomorrow someone digs up definitive proof that one of the things I believe about Jesus was a myth how would I react? What if that aspect of my belief was seriously questioned? Could I still love God? Could I still be a Christian? Is the way of Jesus still the best possible way to live? Or does the whole thing fall apart?
I affirm the historic Christian faith,, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inpiration of the Bible and much mroe. I’m a part of it, and I want to pass it on to the next generation. I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is Lord and that God has plans to restore everuthing.
But if the whole faith falls apart when we reexamine and rethink one aspect, then it wasn’t that strong in the first place, was it?
My faith is not the sum total of my beliefs. If it were, then I make God out to become as big as my faith. But God is bigger than faith. God is bigger than any religion. God is bigger than any worldview. God is bigger than the Christian faith.
A Christian doesn’t avoid the questions; a Christian embraces them. Questions are not scary. What is scary is when people don’t have any. What is tragic is faith that has no room for them. (I got some help with the past few sentences from a book called ‘Velvet Elvis – repainting the Christian faith’ by Rob Bell. He just articulates it better than me).
Now you are furious because I said something about moms and pops, please remember that verse ” blessed those being persecuted and all that”.
You twisted my words. I am not furious that you said “moms and pops”. I said that I get angry when I hear swipes being taken at people who are actually living this life of faith (and then I listed some people as example).
What history? Yes arabs claim ishmael was their ancestors, but I dont see that in the bible.
Good point. Thanks for challenging me on that. I will do some study on this when I get some time.
Futher more they said the bible is corrupted why then they should believe in all that?
That’s funny. I have heard Islamic defence that covers both angles. First they say that the Bible is corrupt, and then they take the Bible as is and use it for their own purposes.
We are talking about god. The almighty. How can he create something without knowing the outcome?
God gave us all free choice. It is a gift that He will never take from us. we can choose to love Him and do what is right, or we can choose to live for ourselves and do what is wrong. this is an expression of His love for us. He didn’t make us to be robots with no choice of our own. remember, if you have a child, you cannot force your child to love and obey you. your child has free will.
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Bas says:
Dear anak bawang,
“Only a goose would say that. I can’t see why you should slander Mother Teresa.”,
About Mother Teresa… I am afraid it is a bad example. Have you read her book? Even her had serious doubts about the existence of God… She was not insane! 😉
Tks Daniel…
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Hassan says:
Janma:
We don’t know all of science yet, we don’t have all the answers yet, still looking no?
First, anti-creationists usually use science in their argument to rule out the existence of God, using statements such as: science proved that religion is false, that God don’t exist, etc etc. But when science proved that the chance of living organisms being generated by accident is zero, then you claim that science still have flaws and is incomplete.
For me that’s an act of using double standard. If that’s the case, if science still have weaknesses and is still incomplete, then it shouldn’t be used to rule out the existence God on the first place. If you used contemporary science and scientific methods to rule out God’s existence, then you should use the same standard when assessing the origins of life: contemporary science. Contemporary science had now come to the conclusion that the no-God theory is statistically impossible.
God is a nice neat explanation that has even less evidence to support it.
If the Supreme Being wanted to mask His presence for a particular reason, what chance did we have to find those physical evidence? You said it yourself, science and human knowledge is limited, now if God is unlimited in nature, then how can our limited knowledge grasp His existence? Perhaps we should start searching for non-physical evidence…
It’s all too big for us to understand, maybe keep looking.
For how long? Well, we only have a possible mere 70-80 years to “keep looking”. Alzheimer and other degenerative diseases can cut those numbers even shorter.
I am of the opinion that the non-visible Being can only be found by searching for the non-physical evidence, if we were to have a chance of finding the answer within our short lifetime. -
Thijs Cornelissen says:
Aluang Anak Bayang who says Christians are dirty, they take shower every day just like you do. Maybe you should question your sanity because you allow your fellow Muslims to attck non-Muslims. So the essence of the religion as you practise it is violence, hatred and prejudice. Well, I’ve been to Indonesia and have seen plenty of poor Muslims wh didn’t have the opportunity to take a proper bath. But I don’t use the word ‘dirty’ on them as I’m educated enough to undertand that they just don’t have the financial means to take care of themselves and for that matter take a proper bath. So why not help your poor and buy a bar of soap for them. Did it ever occur to you?
Having children is far more important to Muslims rather then taking good care of them and feed them. With this I mean that Muslims encourage big families so their religion can spread and be dominant instead of wanting the best for their famlies. Like sending them to school and feed them proper meals. If I read your comments I’m glad that I’m not a Muslim. Only those who will benefit from oppressing their fellow beings are to be Muslims. It’s a very violent religion, and raping the captured slaves is also justified by you ‘when desire occurs’. It tells me more about your animal nature than your logical thinking. You even complain about your rating. Your rating will go down as more as your sanity deteriorates.
I will not ever encourage others to bring down your mosques for the sake of the true religion because my mind was not infected with rotten ideas like yours. You may burn us down a hundred of times but we will always build up and remain united and God loving. In the end love always wins from hatred. Violence is for the fools and again I advise you to go see a psychiatrists to check on your sanity as your previous made comments are much like those of a thug rather then a civilized person. You’re barbaric and your religion has barbaric traits. My religion is that of mercy and compassion something your breathren and brain is not capable of understanding. I bet your life has been very love-less and you’re very bitter.
You can read you Holy Quran a thousand of times and quote from it. Obviously you need the quotes to convince me and yourself of what you’re allowed to do to the un-believers or kaffir as your derogatory describe us. Unfortunately for you you can never whipe us out. You can kill us, burn us but the cross is ever present in Indonesia and Thank God not everyone believes like you do. You’re the majority however you’re not the solely religion which exists. Although you benefit from financial support from the Arabs. Soon as the oil becomes a second hand source of eneregy and other sources of energy are available the whole Muslim emperium will dry up together with your financial means.
Let’s see if you still are so concerned about your faith if it wasn’t useful to you anymore. You practise religion as nothing more than a powerplay. So I should question whether you’re religious or jus an obessesed sadist.
And the tsunami being a punishment of God. That is as rediculous as stating that God punished you if your mother died.
You seem to have lost your common sense. In the end when the whole world has been taken over by Islam. The Muslims will start to fight each other as is already visible in many countries. Shiite and Shear Muslims. But still you have a great religion be it just the scale of it and the children Muslim families produce.
I feel for you. But I don’t feel sorry for you. You deserve however to be in your religion because you’re not a man of great love and compassion but of revenge and hatred.
Your thoughts of the world are narrow-minded and ruthless. What more need I say. I managed to waste my time on you by sending you this reply. I don’t wish you luck. I don’t wish you death either. In the end God will judge us upon our deeds, behaviors and actions. And not on how many Christians churches we have burnt. You fool!
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Aluang ANAK BAWANG:
No Aluang, that’s not what I were saying. Now you’re placing my words out of context too? Pathetic. Kejawen spirits disabled your ability to properly understand and elaborate other people’s sentences? Besides, science is only a part of God’s knowledge which He impart to humanity. Your “Islam is Science, and Science is Islam” concept is incorrect.
How about this for a brain teaser:
A. Aluang ANAK BAWANG is not a Muslim as he kept trying to sound to be.
B. Aluang ANAK BAWANG always uses sarcastic insinuations towards Islam and Muslims.
The equation is simple: A and B are both correct.
I used a Jewish website as my source in order to prevent religious bias, nothing else. Had I used Islamic sources, it would be met by skepticism by certain Islam haters.