Live In Programs
Sep 5th, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslim-Christian live-in programs.
Religious Violence
In some of the last years of General Suharto’s rule, around 1996-97, the province of East Java saw a sharp upturn in instances of anti-Christian violence, resulting in about 100 churches being burned down or vandalised, about 20 of them on a single day in October 1996 in the town of Situbondo.
A Catholic church burns in Situbondo.
A minister from the Jawi Wetan church (GKJW) in Malang, Reverend Gunawan, says these events, which:
started in Pasuruan and had their climax in Situbondo
caused him to wonder
it was strange, people who had lived together peacefully for so long became so angry
and resulted in him meeting with various Muslim clerics in Malang and arranging a live-in program in which young Muslims would spend some time sharing the home of a Christian family, and young Christians would stay at Islamic boarding schools, to gain understanding of life on the other side of the sectarian divide,.
Living In
Gunawan says that when Christians go to live with Muslims they learn that:
There are a lot of positives about Islamic boarding schools, they’re not all terrorist breeding grounds.
The live-in program began under the auspices of the Balewiyata Theological Institute in Malang. Former director of the Institute, Suwignyo, says the government insists on pigeon-holing and labelling people as belonging to one religion, and encourages them to live according to that religion’s precepts, but there is no reason he says why there can’t be mixing and communication across the boundaries.
The program is held once a year, in February, and live-in volunteers participate in all aspects of the host families’ activities, including going to church or mosque. On the Muslim side the program is run by the Shiratul Fuqoha school, which is owned by the family of Muhammad Najib Ghoni, usually called Gus Najib.
Mission & Jihad
Gus Najib says the program has helped lessen his suspicions about Christianization:
Maybe from living-in I can find out whether Christianization is really happening, I can see how Christians get their funds and whether it is true they get back-up funds from the West. I used to think that was happening, but they welcomed me and they answered every question that I asked. I even sat in on their church councils.
One Muslim volunteer, Mas’ut Zakaria, a student from the Shiratul Fuqoha school, says getting to know some Christians brings about a feeling of solidarity with them and makes it much less likely that he will be easily provoked when problems between the two communities arise.
While Muslims worry about Christianization attempts, specifically on the Christian use of the word mission, Christians often worry about Islam and violence, or the Muslim use of the word jihad. Suwignyo says however the program has enabled Christians to learn that not all understandings of “jihad” are bound up in violence.
Un-Islamic
Gus Najib says of the program’s effects on him:
We are all a part of a much wider whole, how can we cut ourselves off from that whole? The point is in the world there is not just Islam, and there are many types of Islam, just as there are many types of non-Islam. We must not wish that the whole world become a part of Islam, that is against the law of God.
But some of Gus Najib’s friends, even those since childhood, accuse him of having lost his “Islamicness”, and even threaten him, and oppose the program fiercely.
Un-Christian
On the other side Suwignyo says he sometimes has trouble finding church members who are willing to take Muslims into their homes.
Success
On the whole however he says the program has been a success and has now expanded to include those of other faiths such as local Buddhists and Hindus. ranesi
71 Comments on “Live In Programs”
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Peter says:
Dan janganlah kamu berdebat dengan Ahli Kitab, melainkan dengan cara yang paling baik, kecuali dengan orang-orang zalim , di antara mereka, dan katakanlah: “Kami telah beriman kepada (kitab-kitab) yang diturunkan kepada kami dan yang diturunkan kepadamu; Tuhan kami dan Tuhanmu adalah satu; dan kami hanya kepada-Nya berserah diri”.
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Tomaculum says:
“Mas toma, tell us where you live so we will stay away from your Sodom & Gomorah area. God’s wrath will be upon people like you.”
Aluang, I live between the worlds. It will be a pleasure to face the wrath of your so “mighty” God (if you believe in one … 🙂 ).
Its a pity that you will stay away, cause everything we can laugh about is always welcome.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Daniel Khaleel said
giving people reason to believe that religion is the cause of all the worlds problems (the problems of the world are a human issue, not a religion issue)
Maybe not, but for many certainly a mask to hide behind and to conceal their real motives.
I love muslims as they are, for who they are. I was not referring to Indonesian muslims alone, but all muslims, including members of the Iranian muslim community with which I am friends.
This kind of soft approach makes Christianity a sitting duck for militant Islam. I advise Daniel Khaleel to read the Qur’an and the Sunnah of its prophet first.
I wonder what happened to our Christian commenter Ismail. He was a converted Muslim and he knew at least what he was talking about. -
Daniel Khaleel says:
Hi Dewa…
Thanks for your comment. I realise that the impression I give may be soft and cuddly. But I assure you that it is not.
I do know the reality of the situation. I have had my home broken into and had Christian scripture torn up and replaced by Quran scripture (including very threatening scripture). I have two friends who are secret Christians and are terrified for their life if their families were to find out. I have seen the violence inflicted on Christian children at the hand of extremists in Asia. Additionally, I also have friends in Indonesia who are converts from Indonesia and they have assured me of the very real dangers. I do not underestimate the reality that is Islam and I don’t make my comments lightly.
Never-the-less, Jesus Christ instructs us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us. It takes more courage and strength to love and forgive rather than hate and retaliate. Jesus did not play with his words. He showed that he was serious by refusing to react even as they nailed him to a Roman cross.
For this reason, I will always pray for God’s grace that I may continue to love. I do not judge a muslim for their religion. I view them as being created by God and for God. Followers of Islam are always welcome as my friend.
I hope that can shed some light on my view. Thanks for your concern Dewa.
Daniel.
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Bas says:
Daniel, if you say you believe there is a ghost in your closet so it is your job to prove it. Not mine to prove there is nothing. So if you say there is a God, while you have absolutely no scientific evidence of it then this is your job to prove it to me. You are the one who think you know things, I don’t. You are making sweet stories from nothing. You say there is something while nothing is to be seen? Good. Show me the evidence big mouth. Most of what I read in your holy books is nonsense to me. And nowadays psychology and psychiatry (anthropology as well) say interesting things about magic and irrational thoughts and why guys like you believe in God, or ghosts or spirit in the trees… Anyway I don’t care. It’s just funny to see people killing each other for centuries for something that doesn’t even exist.
Agnostic? Why should I say there is a possibility a God exists while there is no evidence of it? While the idea of a God is such an absurdity for me. An agnostic is no more rational than a believer if he admits only the possibility if the existence of a God. Why something irrational and apparently impossible should become an option? In his heart an agnostic may believe in God but that belief is against his cartesian education may be? I don’t know. For me, if you believe in God’s possibility then you are not rational anymore.
And anyway, You now what? If there was a God I would be his enemy, I would hate him and fight him because I really don’t like the unfair world he had created. If there is a God then what a cruel and stupid God we have here. Human laws (unreligious ones) are far better than His law of the jungle. To eat or be eaten. Power to the strongest. No way. I am an humanist, not an islamist. And that’s why you guys are free to believe in whatever you want. The super great Jesus that can turn water into wine… Mohamad talking to God… green little aliens coming at night. You can deny the evolution law if you want. You can even believe in paradise if it makes you fell better 🙂
In centuries I think your descendants will laugh at your believings just like you laugh at primitive tribes ones 🙂 And just like I friendly laught at yours now (sorry to say that but yes I think I am much more rational than you).
BUT, even if I think you are a dreamer, I will never try to forbid you to believe what you believe. And I even would do whatever I can so that you keep free to think what I think is helpful but ridiculous.
That’s the difference between an aware person (the term of “atheist” shouldn’t even exist) like me and those islamists (or prostestant, catholics puritans and fanatics). I think you guys are living in a dream but please keep it that way. That is your right and I’d love to live in it, I’d be much happier! As long as you can also respect others beliefs (or the strongest ones who have no beliefs and that you call atheist as if the normality would be to be a believer…).One day, hopefully, all religions will disappear. Sorry for my bad english. Peace!
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Aluang Anak Bayang, I know and really love what you are doing. 🙂 That’s why I won’t bother answering your message to me. 😉 Others are already playing the game and many don’t even realize it. So you don’t need me to enter the game.
I also love provocation and make 90% of my post with different nicks. That’s one of my rare pleasure in Indonesia. But you are doing it in a much better way than I do. Very well documented.It is such a pleasure to make some people mad. Almost as enjoyable as looking as a total idiot to real idiots eyes.
Keep your good work in Indonesiamatters! Very entertaining and needed. Thanks!
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Hi Bas,
I read your reply. I choose not to engage with you in deep discussion as I don’t believe your here for open discussion. You have an agenda that you wish to communicate without the thought of learning anything yourself.
Please be open. There are a multitude of books and resources out there that can challenge the philosophical arguments of atheism. You also claim that there is no scientific basis for the existence of God. I believe that there is more scientific evidence to suggest the existence of God than there is to discredit it. My wife’s faith was actually strengthened through her study of molecular genetics (she is a research scientist).
Bas, simply put, from my studies, I have found that Atheism offers no hope for this life or the next. The challenge of Ethics also falls flat without the anchor of God. My faith is not blind. I have engaged the issue of God on the mental level (the area of knowledge) and the spiritual level. I have read the existential philosophical arguments from both sides of the fence and I have found more sense and great hope in the case for God.
But more that all of this Bas, I have seen the reality of God. The truth of God lives in my heart. I have seen the evidence of this reality through the change and miraculous events that have occured in my own life.
Live your life Bas. If your comfortable that this life is all there is and there is not hope for more, I can’t persuade you the other way. I just hope that you always humble and willing to acknowledge truth if and when you see it.
Grace and peace.
Daniel.
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Hassan says:
Aluang Anak Bawang: At it again eh, Aluang? Why don’t you give up the routine, sounding as if wanted to promote Islam while your real agenda is to defame it. You know Aluang, some would call that acting like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. What, you didn’t receive the same amount of pleasure you usually got anymore in promoting your own faith, the famous ‘kejawen’?
Apparently you haven’t been enlightened enough, perhaps you haven’t performed your ‘sesajen’, ‘nyekar’ or ‘bertapa’ sincerely, too busy messing around with the affairs of other religions I reckon. And instead of always misquoting the Quran and put the verses out of contexts which only made you look silly, maybe you would be kind enough to enlighten the rest of us with some narration from your ‘holy primbon’. Be original, Aluang!
Monggo Mpu Aluang, ditunggu kebijaksaannya.
Bas: Then can you prove that the universe was created by a continuous random set of occurrences? Can you mathematically prove that one day all the gases and particle matters that make up the universe decided to accumulate themselves and by an ingenious stroke of luck decided to explode and caused the big bang?
Can you explain why certain atoms decided to form up to create stars, asteroids, and planets? And can you guess who told those stars and planets to form up into certain galaxies? And how did some other atoms decided to form up to create the mountains, trees, and living beings? Does those atoms have intelligence, and moreover, synergy with one another? How can the atoms in your body decide which ones of them should bunch up to to create the cells of your lungs, liver, and brain? And who commanded those cells to perform their duties, as different cells have different functions?
Let’s perform an experiment (which I had previously discussed with tomaculum on another thread): If you stack up a huge amount of sand in a plot of land, what are the odds that you can find a sand-made empire-state-sized building in that place the next day, complete with running elevators, air conditioners, cars in the parking lot, etc. which are also made of the same sand? Some lucky wind blew and cause all that? Well, as impossible as it might be, the mathematical chance of that happening is actually bigger than all the atoms ‘intelligently’ (or luckily) bunching up to create the universe after the big bang, let alone doing the ‘maintenance’ job on this ever expanding universe.
We can’t see God, because He doesn’t want us to be able to see Him. Why? Because He wanted to test us, He wanted to see how we will fare in his ‘absent’. He created the world of living for that purpose, a testing ground, like a teacher who wanted to see which ones of his students will cheat and which ones won’t when he leaves the class during an exam. And because this life is a test of faith, that’s why this world we live in is full of temptations, injustice and unfairness. It wasn’t supposed to be perfect, it supposed to be tough, challenging and grueling. What would be perfect is the place that we will return to, our original home in heaven. How can we get ‘home’ safely? He did left instructions, didn’t He?
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Assalamualaikum Mas Bas,
I also love provocation and make 90% of my post with different nicks.
Count me out! I and Sheikh Cuk are on a very important mission. Together with the help of Melayu brothers Mas Sputjam and Mas Khafi, we are helping fellow Indonesians steer clear of Allah’s wraths. Any Bules who had Islamo-Javanized himself like Mas Achmad Sudarsono can join in this rescue mission.
__________________________________________________________By the grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala.
Mas Hassan, firstly, my title is ‘Anak Bayang’. It is a honorary warrior title reserved for Dayak tribemen. Pronouncing it wrongly in Kalimantan will get one beheaded, more so if you are muslim. For some unknown reason, Dayaks are allergic to Muslims.
…..promote Islam while your real agenda is to defame it.
Copy and paste the quote that you think defamed Islam. I have been quoting from authoritative muslim clerics, unless your credential are better than them.
What, you didn’t receive the same amount of pleasure you usually got anymore in promoting your own faith, the famous ‘kejawen’?
Kejawen is Javanese Belief, and majority of ethnic Indonesians are Javanese. Our founding father, Pak Karno is a proud Kejawen. If your ancestors were Arab migrants, you should be loyal to our country and show more respect for our culture.
And instead of always misquoting the Quran and put the verses out of contexts which only made you look silly, maybe you would be kind enough to enlighten the rest of us with some narration from your ‘holy primbon’……
Instead of saying that I misquoted, why not point to it, otherwise it makes you a bull.
…Be original, Aluang!
The holy quran is not original does not mean Allah swt copied from the bible. These were rumours spread by the crusaders to discredit Islam. It is simply because both books were written by the same author.
Next time kaffir like Bas questioned you about Islam, show them this video link. These are miracles of Islam even Julita can’t deny.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19e9y_miracles-of-islam
Also ask them about the creation of semut.Salam.
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Julita says:
Aluang:
These are miracles of Islam even Julita can’t deny.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19e9y_miracles-of-islamMr. Aluang it is not that I cannot deny, it was so unimportant to discuss, I let it fly with the wind. Was it writing in the sky, leaves, trees?
By the way, somewhere you went over the border. You have no resources so you took mine, Mother Teresa. It’s O.K. this time.
You know what, I have been discussing with you and kind following your posting. Your tone was upsetting people. What I want to tell you is, as you said Aluang, all can be justified. For instance: only allowed one wife – no four wives is allowed, kill non Moslem – no, kill only for defence, Christians are our brothers – no Christians are kaffirs, men consider higher than women and the opposite and could be more. This is it, ordinary people get confused, no? Need, good instruction, good leader.
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Dear mbak Julita,
As you can see, good muslims scored negative karma. Why? because we are the most oppressed group.
I wonder what I said about Mother Teresa to make you upset. Care to tell me?
I also wonder how my tone should upset anyone. I am merely rehashing what was said by renowned muslim clerics. The Arab camel rider Hassan is only interested in Middle Eastern issues, and I wonder why he should waste his time rebuking every comment I posted instead of coming up with something enlightening. If he think that I defamed Islam, he should debate with the muslim scholars I copied and pasted comment from.
For instance: only allowed one wife – no four wives is allowed,
Tell that to any good muslim. Our Prophet pbuh had over a dozen wives and sex slaves. Four wives is a conversative figure.
kill non Moslem – no, kill only for defence,
That is what I am promoting. When we invite them to Islam and if they still refuses, we will kill them by defensively. Only Islam is allowed for Allah.
Christians are our brothers – no Christians are kaffirs
Okay, I agree with you. They are najis.
, men consider higher than women and the opposite and could be more.
We have proof that women are made subservient because of Evels undoings.
Salam.
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Aluang, I am referring to those samples to show the need of explanation. As about Mother Teresa, I am not at all upset.
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Janma says:
Quote Hassan;
“Let’s perform an experiment (which I had previously discussed with tomaculum on another thread): If you stack up a huge amount of sand in a plot of land, what are the odds that you can find a sand-made empire-state-sized building in that place the next day, complete with running elevators, air conditioners, cars in the parking lot, etc. which are also made of the same sand? Some lucky wind blew and cause all that? Well, as impossible as it might be, the mathematical chance of that happening is actually bigger than all the atoms ‘intelligently’ (or luckily) bunching up to create the universe after the big bang, let alone doing the ‘maintenance’ job on this ever expanding universe.”
Come on, you’ll have to better than that to convince me, proving God to be the creator of the universe is not just a matter of elimination, that is not even a logical example. you can’t just say. That couldn’t happen right now, so therefore something like that could never happen, so therefore God must’ve done it.
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Augusto says:
Dear Khaleel
Are you this gullible, or may be you are an apologist for islam or may even be playing taqiyya?
My “I love Muslims” comment is in response to Aluangs consistent expressed intent to see non-believers become Muslim or be conquered.
Common, what kind of an excuse is this? Are you talking to me or someone else? My questions to you do not have anything to do with anyone else. Please be honest and straight forward. Don’t go beating around the bus. My question is why you said you love indonesian and muslims as if there are two group of people in your last post.
I love Muslims as they are, for who they are. I was not referring to Indonesian Muslims alone, but all Muslims, including members of the Iranian Muslim community with which I am friends.
Are you saying you will still love those good muslims who are trying very hard to implement sharia so they can subjugate the kuffar? And you will still love those jihadist beheading innocent civilians for who they are too right? I bet you love those good muslim like Abu bkr basher, fpi and the like for what they are right? Since you love so much that Iranian muslim community why don’t you try living there for awhile and feel the love of those Khomeini regime.
Extremism is the viewpoint being espoused by Aluang when he calls for Sharia implementation.
My dear why are you so obsessed of this aluang? You keep on mentioning him all the time. Leave him alone he is just doing allah’s work. And by the way it is the quran that calls for the implementation of sharia.
Extremism is the teaching that encourages young Indonesian Muslims to drive a car full of explosives to the. Mariott hotel, Australian embassy, or Sari Club in Bali and kill others and themselves. Extremism is the videos that I have seen that shows victims of religious conflict in Poso and Ambon. Extremism are the news I hear of women being stoned for alleged adultery in the middle-east under Sharia implementation
My, are you this naïve? What do you think makes all this good muslims did all that? Don’t you ever think there must be some kind of ideology behind all these? When you see all these suicide bombers shouting allah huakbar before blowing themselves up and quoting verses and hadith from the quran before beheading innocent has nothing to do with islam? Have you ever seen a moderate muslim dares to argue with the jihadist if what they are doing are against the quran? There is no way this so-called moderate can win a debate with them. They are the real muslim, they are doing exactly what the quran and sunna instruct them to. That is how they should treat kuffar! How can you ignore all that? Unless you rather live in denial just like those moderate muslims. Lets call a spade a spade khaleel!
The enemy is the one that Jesus Christ referred to when he said “The enemy comes to rob, kill, and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full” The bible refers to the enemy as satan. Any person who seeks to rob, kill, or destroy are doing the works of an enemy.
If this is what you meant by “fear and death by enemy”, why do you have bring that up in the first place? It has nothing to do with your previous response to me. You are now just defining satan as referred by jc. It has nothing to do with our previous argument.
The scriptures say that the promised land belongs to the seed of Abraham. If I read my scriptures correctly, the seed of Abraham includes both Arabs and Jews.
Please let me know where does it say the seed of Abraham includes both arabs and jews! Why do you want to insist that those Christians and jews have the same god as muslims? Mohammad version of allah is different than the Christians’ and jews’ god and also the hindus and budhists. Don’t confuse allah with those other faiths’ god. I would suggest you read more of that quran and sunna before misleading other gullibles.
Btw when you said ‘The trinity is a term developed by theologians ‘ you are also implying that it is man made. Correct me if im wrong.
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By the grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala. Pujian untuk Allah.
Dear all,
Today we witnessed syaitan’s agent bears its ugly head. I called on all our friendly muslim mobs, and all peace loving kaffir friends to give Augusto bad karma.
Sura Beni Israel: (17/97-98)
“Only he can be guided whom Allah guides; one who is misled by Allah has not hope but He; On the Judgment Day, We shall raise him face down, deaf, dumb and blind. Hell will be the abode for such people. That is their lot because they denied Our signs.Repent.
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Hi Augusto,
Thanks for your reply. I’ll try and keep my response will be brief. I found your post slightly difficult to understand, but I’ll try my best to answer each of your questions.
First let me begin by quoting Jesus (Matthew 5:9-12) to set the tone for my response:
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Augusto said:
Common, what kind of an excuse is this? Are you talking to me or someone else? My questions to you do not have anything to do with anyone else. Please be honest and straight forward. Don’t go beating around the bus. My question is why you said you love indonesian and muslims as if there are two group of people in your last post.
Response: Firstly, I’m unfamiliar with the expression “Don’t go beating around the bus.” What bus? I believe that my reply was clear. I did explain why I spoke of two groups of people. If you read my posts in context, you’ll see that I don’t like barriers and prefer to consider us all as one group – ‘human’.
Augusto said:
Are you saying you will still love those good muslims who are trying very hard to implement sharia so they can subjugate the kuffar? And you will still love those jihadist beheading innocent civilians for who they are too right?
Response: I love people, regardless of their belief. Jesus was tortured and hung to a Roman Cross. His response – “Forgive them Father for they do not know what they’re doing”. I am not naive and I know what causes this type of action from the Jihadists. Never-the-less, I will still love. Don’t get me wrong – justice must be done. I hate the evil perpetrated by the murderers and I call for justice to be done. Justice must be done. But justice must be done by the RI government, not by mobs seeking revenge. As I said in a previous post, I am fully aware of the danger posed by Islam and have friends who are converts. They have assured me of the very real danger. I have also had my home broken into and vandalised by some Jihadists. I am not blind on this matter. But hate is blinding. I choose to love. I repeat – any follower of the religion of Islam is welcome as my friend.
Augusto said:
My, are you this naïve? What do you think makes all this good muslims did all that? Don’t you ever think there must be some kind of ideology behind all these? When you see all these suicide bombers shouting allah huakbar before blowing themselves up and quoting verses and hadith from the quran before beheading innocent has nothing to do with islam? Have you ever seen a moderate muslim dares to argue with the jihadist if what they are doing are against the quran?
Response: I am aware of the violence, the doctrine, and the ideologies espoused by these people that you refer to. Refer to my previous response. I love them regardless. Hate is blind. Love is freedom. I am currently waiting for a list of Middle Eastern Muslims who “dissappeared from the face of the earth” after questioning some clerics about the content of the Quran. Once I get this I will post it. Once again, I am not blind on this matter, but I have freedom to choose my response – I choose love. We are all made in the image of God although we have all gone astray.
Augusto said:
If this is what you meant by “fear and death by enemy”, why do you have bring that up in the first place? It has nothing to do with your previous response to me. You are now just defining satan as referred by jc. It has nothing to do with our previous argument.
Response: I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about 🙂 I think what I was trying to say in that statement is that I believe that the real enemy is the spiritual power that blinds people and persuades them to do such evil acts. Maybe a better way to phrase it is “I love the sinner but I hate the sin”.
Augusto said:
Please let me know where does it say the seed of Abraham includes both arabs and jews!
Response:
the following text from Genesis can shed some light on this. Remember that Isaac and Ishmael are the sons of Abraham, and all of there descendents (the Arabs descending from Ishmael and the Jews from Issac) are therefore the descendents of Abraham.
Genesis 17:3-8‘Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”‘
Augusto said:
Why do you want to insist that those Christians and jews have the same god as muslims? Mohammad version of allah is different than the Christians’ and jews’ god and also the hindus and budhists. Don’t confuse allah with those other faiths’ god.
Response: That is a tough one and there is no consensus on it at all. I personally believe (and keep in mind, this is my feable attempt to explain my belief and not the general consensus of other christians) that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims claim the same God – God the creator. However, there are three revelations of this God. The Judaic covenant as the first revelation, and (I believe) the death and resurection of Christ as the second revelation. I do not affirm that the revelation that Prophet Mohammed received as being authentic and there are various reasons for that. If I believed that it was an authentic revelation of God the Creator I would be a muslim. Please note that while I do not affirm the Quran to be the word of God, that does not affect my view of anyone who does affirm so. They are human.
Augusto said:
Btw when you said ‘The trinity is a term developed by theologians ‘ you are also implying that it is man made. Correct me if im wrong.
Response:
The term ‘trinity’ is man made. As I explained, it is a term used to try and express the trinitarian nature of God as revealed in scripture (i.e., God revealing Himself as Father, God revealing Himself as Spirit, and God revealing Himself through the Son – Jesus Christ). For me it has always been the hardest aspect of christian doctrine to grasp so I definately am not in a position to communicate this effectively.It’s good talking with you Augusto. May I ask what your stance is on the whole issue? Can you please tell me also, what is your nationality and religion (including if you are atheist / agnostic)? It will just help me to understand your worldview when replying to you, and hopefully give you the type of answer that you are seeking. I am not a fan of this kind of forum for discussion as it tends to depersonalise people and often makes removes the tone and emotion behind the comments.
One more thing, I am replying to you because I believe that you’re wanting to engage in honest discussion. If you are one of those people who are posting under different names and attempting to trap me, please advise so that I can stop replying.
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Daniel Khaleel said
Never-the-less, Jesus Christ instructs us to turn the other cheek and to pray for those who persecute us. It takes more courage and strength to love and forgive rather than hate and retaliate.
Imagine the following situation:
You are waiting for a train in a busy station and
“¢ Right in front of you on the platform you spot a candidate jihadi martyr wearing an explosive belt ready to blow himself and all around him to kingdom come,
“¢ A train comes in fast and before he has a chance to detonate himself you can push our heroic defender of the faith from the platform onto the rails.What are you going to do, Daniel? Will you pray for him and let him enter paradise to enjoy fruits, wine and eternal virgins? Remember, praying too long may cause you to no longer have another cheek to turn.
Jesus did not play with his words. He showed that he was serious by refusing to react even as they nailed him to a Roman cross.
When Jesus refused to react it was his own life and mission that were at stake. The madness and cruelty of religious fanatics we have to live with today however has a far wider impact than just our personal lives and goals. Anyone who witnessed the misery and havoc caused by jihadi maniacs should know that not reacting equals complicity.
_______________________________Hassan said:
We can’t see God, because He doesn’t want us to be able to see Him. Why? Because He wanted to test us, He wanted to see how we will fare in his ‘absent’.
This god seems like a sadistic maniac to me. First he creates me like I am without me having any say in it and then he puts me to the test to see how I will fare. Given the fact that he also seems to be all-knowing and already predestined the outcome of the test ‘50.000 years before the Big Bang’ I would rather burn in hell and eat ‘zaqqoom’ thorns than prostrate myself for a psychopathic monster that allegedly sends earthquake and tsunami to punish his creatures.
No thank you. Existential guilt feelings are not well spent on me. Luckily there are other more plausible ethics and explanations for life and the universe that do not ask for unconditional ‘submission’ and coerce me to follow the footsteps of some delusional self-proclaimed prophet. -
Dewa,
You do pose a good question. While I declare myself a pacifist, I also say that it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
I would challenge one point that you make…
Anyone who witnessed the misery and havoc caused by jihadi maniacs should know that not reacting equals complicity.
I believe that we must respond, rather than react.
I advocate non-violence and believe that there are peaceful outcomes available for most of the worlds conflicts, I do admit that there are occasions when the world must act with force to protect the innocent and the oppressed.
Case in point – Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If you ever have a chance to read any of his biographies, it makes for interesting reading. Bonhoeffer was a theologian and pastor in germany. he travelled to India to study non-violent resistance. He was eventually arrested by the Nazis and executed on count of conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.
Bonhoeffer seemed to be torn between the stuggle of non-violent resistance and the urgent call to act to protect the Jews from annihilation.
In matters of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and mass persecution such as the current situation in Darfur and Burma, I believe that the world must act and bring liberty to the oppressed.
I am so sorry if my stance is offensive to some. Perhaps I would feel different if I was attacked and my church was burnt down. But I pray that I will be able to stand in the grace of God and trust Him to vindicate me. My sincere apologies to anyone who I offend with this attitude.
The RI government must protect the Indonesians from the hands of fanatics. If they do not, they make pancasila look like a joke and they cause themselves embarresment on the world stage.
Finally Dewa, I believe that education is the best defense against this ideology that encourages suicide bombing. If their eyes could be open to the foolishness of the lie that 72 virgins await them, or the foolishness of the lie that Allah smiles on these murderers then maybe there is hope. If their eyes could be open to the intrinsic value in every human being, then maybe there is hope. I pray for the efforts of the courageous ones who seek to communicate these messages of peace in the darkest places in this world.
-
Aluang: If their eyes could be open to the foolishness of the lie that 72 virgins await them, or the foolishness of the lie that Allah smiles on these murderers then maybe there is hope. If their eyes could be open to the intrinsic value in every human being, then maybe there is hope. I pray for the efforts of the courageous ones who seek to communicate these messages of peace in the darkest places in this world.
Whew, an entirely different tone. My compliment.
-
daniel
Finally Dewa, I believe that education is the best defense against this ideology that encourages suicide bombing.
If education is the solution then how about those highly educated doctors that were planning the latest terrorist attacks in London? Education also requires the will to become educated.
IMHO it isn’t even religion or politics that are the main motives behind these actions. Somehow I believe it has a lot to do with racial frustrations, not being able as a group or people to cope with a rapidly evoluting world that forces us to leave behind longstanding but outdated paradigms and familiar values. History has teached us that paradigm changes don’t go smoothly but usually were accompanied by eruptions of violence. -
Jlta: Whew, an entirely different tone. My compliment.
Jlta: Sorry, the compliment was due for Daniel. I thought it was Aluang writing (different tone!).
-
luphIndo says:
To Daniel…
Thanks a lot… you are doing a lot in the behalf of your Christian brothers and sisters to promote “love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you”… and I am amazed with your great faith in Jesus Christ.. May the love of God always be with youI have something to share with you in regards with trinity…
The term ‘trinity’ is man made. As I explained, it is a term used to try and express the trinitarian nature of God as revealed in scripture (i.e., God revealing Himself as Father, God revealing Himself as Spirit, and God revealing Himself through the Son – Jesus Christ). For me it has always been the hardest aspect of christian doctrine to grasp so I definately am not in a position to communicate this effectively.
I was also confused in the beginning of my spiritual life but the Holy Spirit… let’s take example like water… if I have a glass of hot water and I put an ice cube inside… how many substances do you see? smart people will tell that it is only one substance… (water, or H20)… but some will say they see three things (water, ice and water vapor) while they are just the other forms of water right.. while the liquid form is used for washing, drinking etc… we can also use ice cube for making dessert, preserve food.. and water vapor can be use for steaming, creambath and other things… but they are all belong to water (in English water is SINGULAR)
so the concept of trinity is just like that.. I am not mentioning that God is the same with water but we can approach His trinity nature as we approach the different forms of water
Jesus is the God in the flesh form, coming down to be example to human beings and to redeem us from sin.
Holy Spirit is pur guidance and counselor, He is the Omnipresence side of God and continue Jesus mission in earth while Jesus in human flesh off course cannot be present in different location
God the Father is the One that sent His Son to die for us, gives us Holy Spirit and is enthroned among angels in heaven…
so I think that will help you… and even though you might not fully comprehend it, but Holy Spirit will continually guides you and through your experiences someday you may gain a full understanding of Trinity
Last dont mind all the stupid people that put foolish comments here… I know they are here not for peace and there is no way to shut them off unless we stop replying to their ideas, the more we reply the eager they argue with more sarcastic ideas… they can be atheist, agnostic, or certain Muslims who misinterpret the Quran for their own personal pride and hatred that even MUI wont side with them. What they need is not our reply but our prayers and love. A pastor said that souls cannot be won by arguments or debate but with our characters and attitudes of love.
I think those that promotes peace and justice are the one that we should leave comments to show our supports, and I would like to meet one of them….
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Assalamualaikum brother Daniel Khaleel,
I see that you are attacked on all sides by Christian crusaders. I suggest you switch off with these bunch of Devil’s advocates. Faith do not need logic and intellect debates. The holy Quran is prescient, and historically and scientifically accurate. A righteous Christian must coûte que coûte support our noble jihadi cause for him to be fully exonerated from what the apes did to our beloved prophet Esa (peace be upon him). Allah knows best.
Salam.
-
Aluang are you allowed to use Allah’s name in everything you say?
Jlta: For instance: only allowed one wife – no four wives is allowed,
Aluang:
Tell that to any good muslim. Our Prophet pbuh had over a dozen wives and sex slaves. Four wives is a conversative figure.
Jlta: Poor explanation, we did discuss this in this blog.
-
Dear mbak Julita,
There are many things that we, God’s slave, do not have answer as to what Allah’s intention, hence ‘Allah knows best’ when logic answer evaded us.
An example is the torture murder of Kinana and our beloved prophet Mohammad insistence on consuming marriage with his widow, Safiyyah, on the same day. Safiyyah was known for her beauty. The best answers from our muslim scholars were: With the grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala, Safiyyah madly fell in love with our prophet (peace be upon him); Safiyyah was quickly married off out of compassion for war widow, and lastly; Safiyyah knew our prophet (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God, and can’t wait to lay with him. I thought it was lust but Allah knows best.
Ref: (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 522)
Perhap our camel rider can come up with another version since he is a Middle Eastern expert.
Salam.
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LuphIndo – thank you for your encouragement. Your illustration is quite helpful also.
Julita – I wish that Aluang did make the comment that you originally accredited to him.
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Aluang:
I see that you are attacked on all sides by Christian crusaders. I suggest you switch off with these bunch of Devil’s advocates.
Response: I feel like I have been taken for a long ride. I only realised that you were a joker after I read your comment on the “Put Downs & Insults” post (the big red arrown pointing at SBY’s head). You are funny.
I suspect that you are posing as one of the Christian “crusaders”. I’ll let you reveal who it is in due time, although I do have my suspicions… mbak 🙂
-
Janma:
Come on, you’ll have to better than that to convince me, proving God to be the creator of the universe is not just a matter of elimination, that is not even a logical example. you can’t just say. That couldn’t happen right now, so therefore something like that could never happen, so therefore God must’ve done it.
Ahh, but I wasn’t merely using elimination techniques, my approach had more to do with mathematical/statistical probabilities. Let’s leave the creation of the universe alone for now, let’s talk about the chance that the simplest of life form on earth might be formed out of some sort of a freak chance in nature.
Ilya Prigogine, chemist-physicist, recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry, wrote: “The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” That’s right – zero!
The above quotation was actually taken from a Jewish website. You can read more at: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/did-life-form-by-accident.htm
If the possibility of living organism generated by accident is zero, then what will be the chance of the entire universe being generated by a set of random accidents? On the contrary to your believe that God is an impossible concept, the science of statistics in fact proved that your ‘no-God’ theory is actually statistically impossible.
Which then leave us with a simple deduction, or indeed, elimination technique: If A is impossible, the B must be correct. 🙂
-
Dear mankind,
Let me simplify what our muslim brother Hassan was trying to say.
Islam is Science, and Science is Islam. There were many many religions, Islam being one among them.
A brain teaser for kaffirs,
A. the Lord of the Universe has to be Allah Subhana Wata’ala because Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) said so.
B. Our beloved Nabi Mohammad (peace be upon him) has to be the real prophet because Allah Subhana Wata’ala said so.Using Islam ingenious elimination technique, if A is impossible, then B should be correct, or otherwise.
_____________________________________________________
The above quotation was actually taken from a Jewish website.
See, even Syaitan’s agent agree to it. This further validate our claim that Islam is the one true religion for mankind.
Salam.
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Aluang ANAK BAWANG:
Mas Hassan, firstly, my title is ‘Anak Bayang’. It is a honorary warrior title reserved for Dayak tribemen. Pronouncing it wrongly in Kalimantan will get one beheaded, more so if you are muslim.
Somehow the ‘honorary warrior title’ struck me in an utter disbelief. Perhaps those Dayaks are not such a good judge of character, or perhaps you’re just a sorry Dayak warrior wannabe? 😀
I have been quoting from authoritative muslim clerics, unless your credential are better than them.
But you have been placing their words out of context all the time, haven’t you? While their credentials are fine, your credentials in placing their words and connecting them to certain situations regarding Muslims are certainly practically non-existent. Why? First and foremost, because you, err.. hate Islam maybe?
Kejawen is Javanese Belief, and majority of ethnic Indonesians are Javanese. Our founding father, Pak Karno is a proud Kejawen. If your ancestors were Arab migrants, you should be loyal to our country and show more respect for our culture.
I am a Javanese too Aluang, but kejawen had certain pagan aspects in them. And a monotheistic religion should filter out pagan values within it, as monotheism and paganism are opposites. And the last time I checked, kejawen or paganism aren’t one of the official belief system in Indonesia. BTW, appreciate the non-Pagan aspects from the Javanese culture, such as the gamelan, the traditional Joglo house, etc.
Lastly, camel rider eh? What should we call your Keris worshiping cult? Kebo riders? Besides, a Christian can’t be automatically attributed as a Caucasian, a Hindu can’t be automatically attributed as an Indian, and certainly a Muslim can’t be instantaneously attributed as an Arab. Besides, I never rode a camel all my life. 😉
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