US Interference in Poso
Jan 15th, 2007, in News, by PatungThe recent violence in Poso is caused by America, says Abu Bakar Ba’asyir.
The head of the Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI) said at the Darussalam mosque in Lamong, Pare, Kediri, East Java, on the 14th that as long as America continued to pursue its nefarious agenda of creating sectarian strife in Central Sulawesi there would not be peace.
He said that the troubles in Poso between Christians and Muslims were provoked by America in order to ensure that Indonesia remained weak and divided and hence reliant on America. While he supported government efforts to end the fighting and bring to justice the main troublemakers he said it was difficult for the Indonesian government to be able to do so effectively, because of the US interference. Efforts to end the conflict should be done in a non-biased way and not cause the interests of America to gain the upper hand. antara
92 Comments on “US Interference in Poso”
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Cukurungan says:
Dear Rock Star,
Let me ask you question if there is a person comparing between a cat and a chicken what you called such person? Has he handicapped in thinking or “genius”? This is same thing as your comparing “Rock Singer” with “President”. However take it easy friend if you are not happy I called you “Handicapped in think” I will call you “Genius Rockstar””¦hihihi I hope you are happy now.
I also noticed that you have deficiency in memorizing “¦do you believe me? If don’t”¦.let check again your comment “¦why you are asking me to prove that something you first brought up an issue that OSAMA landed in POSO “¦what I have done just fine tune your story so it will look better “¦if you said a true, of course when OSAMA landed in POSO was not trying to get another POSO wives but he should made speech for spreading his hatred toward the infidels
Anyway, we should never feel better or higher than other person because of smarter, richer or taller. Because God will not judge a person based on those God given but He will judge from what we have been done with our respective God Given.
Concerning the source of money for formation the densus 88, you can check in
Far Eastern Economic Review (FEER) edition 13 November 2003 (but again you can denies that this reporting is garbage). The logic is very simple as I said that nothing wrong if a dog obey and an order from someone who was feeding on them.
The reality now in Poso is pretty clear of the American Agenda working very well while the Moslem Poso is not realizing who now they are dealing with, there is an announcement from the police that “tembak ditempat” is eligible “¦the scapegoat will be predictable that some Moslem men (TERORIS) who seek justice and revenge for their love one brutalized during the Poso Conflict will be hunted down by the police while “Real Christian Actor who initiated the POSO Conflict can walk way and their case can be closed by prosecution of Christian scapegoat (poor farmer from Flores).Moslem red line is obviously very clear eyes by eyes and dead by dead. If it is not the case live under earth or dead will be much better for them.
If you still thinking that US gov helping us for the shake of our own interest it is “nice dream” for you. But for me, any US gov help there must be something behind that. Even Sadam before hanged he was took care by American Doctor but not because American care about him just to make him look a good when he was hanged.
Regards,
Provocateur No.1 -
Hassan says:
“America is a favorite target of anyone who has to deal with bad news.”
That’s what you get for having a bad rep. America has ALWAYS meddled on things around the world when they shouldn’t be, and America is the single country who had made the most interventions to another sovereign nation, be it in the form of a regime change, installing puppet governments, strengthening oppositions for a legitimate people-voted government, and even toppling other nations’ governments via direct invasions.
If you were notoriously known for being a thief, had been convicted to several terms of imprisonment and have not yet showed any signs of being repentant, was it other people’s fault for being suspicious of you?
By saying that I didn’t meant to blame everything on the US though. 🙂
I was just figuring the rationale for people’s actions, not just in Indonesia, but in south america, the mid east, Africa and elsewhere across the globe. -
PS3 says:
I came accorss this quote the other day from Peter Ferdinand Drucker:
“Effective leadership is not about making speeches or being liked; leadership is defined by results not attributes.”
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Peter says:
America has ALWAYS meddled on things around the world when they shouldn’t be, and America is the single country who had made the most interventions to another sovereign nation, be it in the form of a regime change, installing puppet governments, strengthening oppositions for a legitimate people-voted government, and even toppling other nations’ governments via direct invasions.
Hassan,
As for these perceptions of America, of what relevance are they? Do you think that if Indonesia was the most wealthy and powerful nation on Earth, that your government would not try to influence other countries to serve your interests?
Perhaps you forgot about “Konfrontasi” already. Case and point.
It is a very seductive idea to think that America’s objectionable actions are a symptom of it’s very character, but unfortunately reality requires us to think more deeply about such complex issues.
The shady things that America does, it only does because it has the power to. Your country would easily do the same thing, if it had the power. And so would dozens of other country. It is not about America’s character; it is about human weakness and addiction to power and money. This is just the way that history played out. Had Indonesia been the world power, there could be terrorist attacks on Jakarta by American militants.
The flaw in your perception, Hassan, is that you assume that America’s dirty deeds are a result of the very idea of America. It is not, in your mind, simply foolish government decisions that are at fault, but democracy, capitalism, secularism, and rationalism themselves. This is an error in your judgement. For example, look at Switzerland, a country that is secular, rational, capitalist, and democratic (and Western). We don’t see Switzerland invading countries, staging coups, or anything like that; they are actually one of the largest donors of foreign aid in the world.
The truth is that America only does things that affect other countries so much – for better or worse – because only America is in the position of power to do such things. Such acts would be commited by India, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Iraq, Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, if one of them was the world superpower.
Brother, use your mind to guide you – not your gut.
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Ali says:
Peter, America is always blamed for what it does. I am surprised that although smaller in scale, these facts have never been brought up as an issue at all:
(1) Iraq tried to invade Iran in 1980s, millions killed.
(2) Iraq was so close to occupying Kuwait in 1990.
(3) Iraq (read: Saddam) killed (tens of) thousands of Kurds.
(4) Libya invades Chad in 1981.It gets me into thinking that it is considered OK for Muslims to invade or kill others (including other Muslims), but not the other way around.
Hassan, just to be fair, you should also know that a lot of Americans do not approve the Iraq war.
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Robert says:
Hassan,
I fully agree with Peter on the fact that the USA does what it does because it has the power to do so. I think one major reason that America is being blamed for a lot of misery happening now in Indonesia, is that America is the only superpower left after the downfall of the Soviet empire.
Since the end of the WW II the USSR and the America had been competing in gaining more political and/or military influence in regions all around the globe.
Like the USA, also the USSR was involved in regime changes, installing puppet governments and military interventions (especially in Europe) and providing military assistance (e.g. to Indonesia during the New-Guinea conflict with the Netherlands). So America wasn’t unique in meddling in other’s countries affairs.However in the late 1980’s the political climate in the USSR had changed. This led to the fall of the Berlin Wall and finally to the downfall of the USSR. From that moment on the USSR ceased to exist as a superpower and split-up in separate countries.
America’s role on the world’s political stage has become quite visible since those days, especially from the moment they became deeply involved in large scale military operations in Muslim countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Because of these operations a lot of Muslims consider the USA the big enemy of the Muslim world, like an incarnation of evil. With that mindset it is very easy to blame the USA for every religion-related incident which occurs in Indonesia today.
Hassan, the problem is that people like Abu Bakar Ba’asyir and yourself don’t provide a single thread of evidence which links America to incidents like those occured in Poso. Also you should ask yourself what has America to gain with an unstable situation in Indonesia.
However, I do understand this mindset because it is the easiest way-out: just blame America. In that way you don’t have to start a thorough investigation and do a proper analysis of all the factors which might have contributed to these incidents.
But do realize that as long as this mindset exists, the people in Indonesia will have to live with the idea that becoming a victim of religious violence is a a part of daily life. When you want to change this situation, you might consider the idea that the probable cause of religion-sparked violence lies in Indonesia and not in Washington DC.
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Roberts ,
Of course, US gov will not have any gain for destsbilishing Indonesia but US has own specific interest to contain possible threat from JI that might be detected by them in POSO conflict.
I fully agreed with you that the most probable caused of Indonesia missfortune is lies here not in Washington but a predator (Washington) will not let easy prey to be wasted. hi hi hiWhen there was Rwanda conflict where millions Christian Hutu and Christian Tutsi slaughtered each other why no single condemnation and any of US force send there to stop the violence.
The reason is pretty clear because there was no flowing black gold for satisfiying Gridy US gov as in Irag.Have you learned how many proven gold reserve in Papua.
Gold reserved in Papua can be produced up-to 100 years with current production rate. So why American need to share this gold with Indonesia if they can eat by themselvesregards,
provokator no.1 -
Cukurungan,
Of course the US will have its own specific economic interests and those interests will determine the agenda. I think it was the former French president De Gaulle who once said: “France has no eternal friends, France has no eternal enemies, France only has eternal interests”. The same goes for the US.
Your example of Rwanda clearly showed that, when a country has nothing to offer in terms of important economic goods like oil or minerals this country will be doomed when it is struck by a civil war or any other type of bloody conflict. The US would never have intervened in Iraq if Iraq would have exported coconuts instead of oil.
I know about the Freeport mining operation in West-Papua. In 1962 it was not only the Indonesian government who wanted the Dutch out of West-Papua but also the American government. This wasn’t for any humanitarian reasons or because they cared so much about the Papuans, no it was the gold treasure that was hidden in the West-Papuan soil. I thought the TNI was also cut a (very small) slice of the profit.
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Bin Camel says:
Hassan,
Though Bush and his gang don’t get my sympathy, but your ignorant statement below is out of fact, bin Laden will condemn you for misguided and misintepretation.
Quote,Almost right. Actually a certain group of jihadists named Al Qaeda (which was a part of the old mujahiddin in Afghanistan) was ‘made’ by the USA. The US financed and armed Al Qaeda in the past. They were trained by Washington. Now, those guys turned against their former masters and became loose cannons. Their actions profited no one in this planet, including the US and Islam.
I laughed to read some silly comments that USA orchestrated bird flu, poso terrorists, aceh tsunami, even adam air mishap, seems Indonesian Muslims, particularly you, are in hate USA (benci tapi rindu), I shoud remind you, your expenses from your hair up to your foot consist american dollar.
American is considerably prominent investor in Indonesia, they main intention is sucking money and our natural resources, perhaps some political moves or CIA things to preserve their economic interest and democratic domination.
They are in front line in helping Indonesian when we got those disasaters whilst not a single Arabian Muslim countries heard in action in any ways to help our countries, their Muslim brother.
To me, USA is more worth than those Arabic countries, who likes to come to Indonesia for pleasures only in puncak, furthermore they like to rape our TKI sisters and seldom to invest in our country, even for food they deceit our haji.
I will take the chance to live in USA with its democratic and free sex culture (yet I’m monogamist) rather than in Libya or Saudi with stupid sharia rule, by the way, if you radical Muslim, CIA will offer you USD 5000/month to be CIA agent in Poso, contact US embassy, code: I will kill infidels.
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Bas says:
“to ensure that Indonesia remained weak”
Haha so funny. Yeah Indonesia would be such a big and powerfull country if not divided. Sure Indonesia would be an economical and military threat for the USA and the rest of the world!
Come on Abu. This country is still importing its rice and the technology is not even good even to produce decent bicycles. Oh my god, what a threat!
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The US is also held responsible for an own goal during Indonesia vs Thailand soccer match a few years back.
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Peter, Robert, Ali, Bin Camel: In your heated tendencies to stereotype me as one of those ‘blame everything on the US’ kind of guy, you guys seemed to missed (or ignored) the fact that i said these things: “By saying that I didn’t meant to blame everything on the US though. I was just figuring the rationale for people’s actions, not just in Indonesia, but in south america, the mid east, Africa and elsewhere across the globe.”
And I also said,
“About the US, for me they are not the cause of all of Indonesia’s problems, some of them are our own faults and we should strive the best as we can to tackle those matters. But the US is not completely innocent, obviously. Their hands aren’t completely clean.”
Perhaps you should have addressed your accusations of being anti-America to my friend, Cukurungan or some other people.
Peter:
“The truth is that America only does things that affect other countries so much – for better or worse – because only America is in the position of power to do such things”
Are you saying that we can do whatever we wanted to do because we have the power to do so? If i worked for the CIA, for example, should I kill you for fun, you know, just because I had the power to do so? No!
What you said, peter, is one heck of a poor justification. Will you use the same rationale to justify all the murders the US had done in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq just to name a few? We’re not talking about a few lives here, but hundred of thousands! Please tell that to the families of the victims: “we killed your children because we have the power to do that!”
“The shady things that America does, it only does because it has the power to”
Then we can justify what Al Qaeda, the Khmer Rouge, the IRA, etc had done too, because it’s within their power to do that! Easy, eh?
It’s funny that your nick should be Peter, because: “Peter, with a great power comes a great responsibility”. Something that the US had failed to do, huh?
Robert: You said,
“you don’t provide a single thread of evidence which links America to incidents like those occured in Poso”
Because again, it’s brother Cukurungan who made that point, not me. 🙂
Why don’t you ask him, Robert.“Also you should ask yourself what has America to gain with an unstable situation in Indonesia.”
It will be in the best interest of the US to keep any other country which have the potential to grow strong in geopolitical power like China, India, Indonesia, Iran, etc weak.
Why? Because if they do grow strong, it would jeopardize the US’ hegemony on the world’s political and economical constellation. Is it not true that the US would’ve preferred a weak china rather than a strong one like the way it is now? The US is not known to be keen on sharing it’s powers, and another version of cold war is not what they had in mind.
Another factor to keep Indonesia unstable and weak is to make Indonesia continuously dependent on the US, thus America can continuously take advantage of this client-state named Indonesia. Believe me, we’re on to you. 😀
“However, I do understand this mindset because it is the easiest way-out: just blame America.”
Ever wondered why that is the common conception not just in Indonesia, but throughout the world (especially in countries not allied with the US)?
Bin Camel: What i said about Al Qaeda being the US’ lap dog not so long ago is well known to be the truth. Pity you missed the news.
“They are in front line in helping Indonesian when we got those disasaters whilst not a single Arabian Muslim countries heard in action in any ways to help our countries, their Muslim brother.”
Yes, they helped us because they can see the headline “US give aid to the world’s biggest Muslim country”. It’s political Bin Camel, not pure charity. And Muslim countries do gave aid, not as well documented and not as much as the US’ maybe.
“I will take the chance to live in USA with its democratic and free sex culture”
Yes, that will definitely suit people with your kind of tendencies. Go ahead and good luck with that green card lottery.
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Hassan,
Saya rasa anda tidak mengerti. Mungkin itu tidak jelas, maaf.
What I meant was: America is not any more “evil” than most other countries. But since we have the most power, the things that we do to “protect” our national interests often have a large impact on other countries.
Look at all the countries in the Middle East who are at each others’ throats. Don’t forget that Middle Eastern countries try to occupy each other all the time (Iraq vs Kuwait, Iraq vs Iran, Syria vs Lebanon…). But this is no big deal, because these countries are “Muslim”. If a “Western” country intervenes in any “Muslim” country – even in a backwards country like Afghanistan, which served as an international terrorist base – it is condemned as an “attack against Islam”. Get real. If “Muslim” countries in the Middle East were as powerful as the U.S., they would have blown each other up a long time ago.
The U.S. is like the only person in a room who is bold (or stupid) enough to say what everyone else wants to say. As soon as that happens, everyone jumps to condemn the U.S.. It is very funny.
It is all about gaining power. First people simply killed/enslaved other people (i.e. the Roman empire). Next, as the world became slightly more civilized, people invaded and then controlled others from above (i.e. European/Japanese imperialism). Now, as the world is a little more civilized still, countries try to use economic and political power to exploit other countries and preserve their power (i.e. U.S. having huge influence over Japan after WWII). The point here is that the U.S. is fighting for power just like other countries. Since the U.S. is in the highest position right now, everyone loves to complain about the US – not for what it does – but for what it is. This is the mistake. Criticize the Bush Administration for specific things that it does – don’t criticize American citizens for things that the government does. This is not fair. I would not blame you for having corrupt leaders. Don’t generalize please.
Saya tidak perkanan apa Amerika sedang buat di Iraq – yang banyak orang-orang Amerika menentang!
O ya, kita tidak harus bicara tentang “Amerika” di sini, tapi daripada “American government”. Amerika punya bermacam orang-orang, seperti Indonesia. Bukan semua orang-orang di Amerika suka apa “American government” buat. Tidak lupa itu! Kami pertimbangan apa orang-orang lain rasa tentang kami, tapi kami (orang-orang umum di Amerika) tidak bisa buat banyak tentang ini. (Lebih banyak kami rasa presiden Bush jelek dan bodoh.)
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Peter, you said everything that needs to be said very well.
You may have noticed that one thing that bothers us (who defend US in this forum) most isn’t just the fact that US is being blamed for most, if not all, the chaos in the world, but also the fact that those US-haters seem to ignore the fact that there are other countries doing similar action – you’ve mentioned them: Iraq’s invasion on Iran & Kuwait, etc.
I don’t expect the blaming and accusation to stop though, since most of them are either very ignorant, very biased, lacking knowledge of history, bigots, or even worse, all of the above. Someone from that side plead for a “fair and balanced discussion”, but he should have talked to himself in the mirror, because that’s not going to happen unless they open their eyes and minds.
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Peter says:
If “Muslim” countries in the Middle East were as powerful as the U.S., they would have blown each other up a long time ago.
Might be you are correct but History told itself what happened when the Moslem Conquered and rule the Spanish land for almost 800 years and compare it with what happened there after the Moslem defeated and ousted. You know better than me.
Also please dot not forgot when Anglo and Spanish conquered and swept all American land what happened to the indigenous Indians you know better than me.
SGN, you are the encyclopedic, Could you please tell us how many Moslems Slaughtered and how many Indian slaughtered on those historic time?
However Thank GOD you have been provided us a way to defend our way, otherwise, the Moslem Indonesia fate will not any better than the story miserable Indian and Aborigine.
Yes We are not even know what our future will be with the existing corrupt system but at least my self still proud to become Indonesian with our chosen way of life.
To whom were sacrificing their soul, blood and everything for the shake of our freedom, please forgive us We have failed to manage your heritage in proper way but we do not lose hope that someday we will make Indonesia a better place to live for every one who respecting your sacrificial.
Provokator No.1
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Hassan,
Robert said:
“you don’t provide a single thread of evidence which links America to incidents like those occured in Poso”.
Because again, it’s brother Cukurungan who made that point, not me.
Why don’t you ask him, Robert.You are right, I should have asked him and not you.
—–Are you saying that we can do whatever we wanted to do because we have the power to do so? If i worked for the CIA, for example, should I kill you for fun, you know, just because I had the power to do so? No!
The fact that the US uses its power doesn’t mean its (military) actions are automatically justified. I don’t read in Peter’s comments that he justifies it like you suggest. You are turning it into a travesty. In your words, it sounds like that there a couple of politicians in Washington DC sitting behind their desks whose main goal is to decide who should be killed and who not. And all this just because they have the power to do so.
—–Then we can justify what Al Qaeda, the Khmer Rouge, the IRA, etc had done too, because it’s within their power to do that! Easy, eh?
It’s funny that your nick should be Peter, because: “Peter, with a great power comes a great responsibility”. Something that the US had failed to do, huh?Ofcourse we cannot justify what these groups are doing, Al Qaeda and IRA are simply terrorrist groups. As far as responsiblity is concerned, the US took their responsiblity after the tsunami by giving help
—–Yes, they helped us because they can see the headline “US give aid to the world’s biggest Muslim country”. It’s political Bin Camel, not pure charity.
Suppose the US would not have given any help after the tsunami, what would your comment have been in that case? I suppose you would have been furious about the fact that th US didn’t do anything. Whatever the US government does it will never be good….
——It will be in the best interest of the US to keep any other country which have the potential to grow strong in geopolitical power like China, India, Indonesia, Iran, etc weak.
India is an emerging economical power. China is not only a ecomical power but also becoming a military superpower. Seriously, do you really think that US can keep China and India weak? Forget it! Western countries are investing heavily in China and keep on doing this. China is on the rise and won’t be stopped, wether the US likes it or not.
You are putting Indonesia in the list of the countries that have the power to grow strong in geopolitical power. What gave you that idea? Don’t get me wrong, if Indonesia wants to play a larger role on a regional or larger scale, they of ofcourse welcome to it. But I don’t see it happen in the near future, because first Indonesia has to deal with immense internal problems, social as well as economical. On top of that you can add all the disasters, natural as well as man-made.
As long as the former mentioned issues aren’t adressed properly, Indonesia’s role on the regional or world stage will be limited.
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Riccardo says:
I realize I’m coming into this discussion quite belatedly, but the thing is if the U.S. had any motivation to destabilize Indonesia, they damn sure wouldn’t be wasting their time or effort stirring up some little backwoods feud in the hinterlands of an unimportant island like Celebes (sulawesi).
If they truly wanted to destabilize Indonesia they would do it in a big way – in Jakarta, Surabaya, Bandung, Medan and Makassar – and they certainly have the capability to do so if they wanted to do it. They have the power, the technology, the money. What they don’t have is the motivation. The U.S., for one reason or another, considers RI an “ally” in trade, defense and foreign policy/geopolitics.
Public opinion or outrage amongst the international community does not and will not deter this U.S. administration, because it’s already as low as it can be and they don’t give a damn. So if they truly wanted to destabilize RI they would be doing it and we’d all know it — NOBODY would need ayam bakar bashir to “reveal” some secret to us, and there’s nothing any of us could do to stop the U.S. from getting what they want. The fact is they don’t want to destabilize RI at this time.
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Hassan, you are excellent in manipulating other’s comments, dude, you need to quote in full to avoid misinterpretation, by the way you are qualified to be CIA agent, they need you in Poso, don’t forget the password I told you.
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Bin Camel, the main idea is to be so vague in wording his comments so that he could “gracefully” back out if he runs out of argument. 🙂
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sgn says:
Cukurungan Says:
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:12 pm…. what happened when the Moslem Conquered and rule the Spanish land for almost 800 years and compare it with what happened there after the Moslem defeated and ousted. You know better than me.
Also please dot not forgot when Anglo and Spanish conquered and swept all American land what happened to the indigenous Indians you know better than me.
SGN, you are the encyclopedic, Could you please tell us how many Moslems Slaughtered and how many Indian slaughtered on those historic time?
I am sorry Cukurungan, I do not find any number on my “encyclopedic”.
sgn.
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Ali. We all should learn from Hassan, at least we know a unique creature named Hassan and he makes discussions hillarious, colourful and lively, patung owes him to attract more antagonist readers, don’t take him serious, it just for fun or make him for fun.
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Ade Wanto says:
Under Bush Administration, America always keep in touch in every society conflict in many countries either its direct or indirectly threaten US. All potentials conflict between Moslems and Christians like in Poso won’t disobey by Bush Admin. Indeed CIA is a hand and eye for Bush to look after Poso’s conflict.
The conflict in Poso is a kind of implementation of theory that Bush believe in international relations, the conflict of civilization. After the cold war, America still need “a reason ” to sell their power and, of course, military consultant and equipment around the globe. This is a simple reason why America gets involve in civil war in some countries around the flobe nowadays.
America has been keeping some potentials (civil) conflict in some areas in reason to boost someday if needed. If one of US companies (which giant invest in million dollars) in Indonesia has a problem with stake holders, America will play the card of civil conflict in neighbouring area nearby.
In my opinion, this is the reason why America connected to civil conflict in some countries. Ustad Abu Bakar Baasyir believe in it too. Let’s appreciate his opinion. -
Peter:
“Saya rasa anda tidak mengerti. Mungkin itu tidak jelas, maaf”
Mungkin anda juga tidak mengerti maksud saya.
“America is not any more “evil” than most other countries”
If you were caught vandalizing or distributing narcotics, you can not justify it by saying: “All the kids in my gang were doing the same thing, you can’t blame me just because I’m the leader of my gang”. That is what I call a heck of a poor justification.
Let’s look at the bigger picture, let’s abandon the ‘using power for the sake of maintaining power’ mind set. Wasn’t power was supposed to be used for the sake of mankind and ALSO (but not ‘only’) the nation wielding the power, rather than just to preserve the power itself? Just because it’s what’s been happening since the Roman times, doesn’t mean we should continue doing it. I mean, we humans had advanced 1,500 years since Rome, wouldn’t sticking to a pre-medieval strategy like that will be a step back for humanity?
I know it’s within human nature to succumb to power hunger, but brother, aren’t we humans and not animals? Didn’t God gave us the ability of reasoning to differentiate the right from the wrong and what we should or shouldn’t do instead of simply what we can or can’t do? That power of reasoning is too precious to only be utilized in a survival of the fittest manner, it doesn’t take an intelligent human to do that, even animals can do that sort of things.
And as the leader of the pack, the US had the responsibility to lead the rest of humanity by example. If not the leader, who else will have the power and the resources do that and change a bad habit that’s been plaguing humanity since God knows when. Only then will the power the US currently posses had any value for humanity as a whole. Otherwise they will end up like the old Pharaohs and Caesars, people did not miss them when they vanished from the face of the world. Let’s not justify a bad habit, shall we?
Hence peter, I said “With great power comes great responsibility”.
“Criticize the Bush Administration for specific things that it does – don’t criticize American citizens for things that the government does”.
FYI, I never blamed the US citizens for invading Afghan, Iraq, etc. and for meddling with other sovereign nations’ business, and also for whatever shady business the US got their hands to. It might come as a surprise but some people outside the US knows that those things were done by the government, and not the citizens.
“Kami pertimbangan apa orang-orang lain rasa tentang kami, tapi kami (orang-orang umum di Amerika) tidak bisa buat banyak tentang ini. (Lebih banyak kami rasa presiden Bush jelek dan bodoh.)”
I think that Osama is ugly and stupid too, but that doesn’t mean after saying that I can justify Al Qaeda’s actions. If you disagree with your government then you shouldn’t justify their foreign policy. It’s the Muslims and American citizens like you, who had made it difficult for other people to differentiate between them and Al Qaeda or the US government in respective order.
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Robert: You said,
“In your words, it sounds like that there a couple of politicians in Washington DC sitting behind their desks whose main goal is to decide who should be killed and who not.”
What makes you think there aren’t? )
Oh yes, you believed in world peace too right?“Of course we cannot justify what these groups are doing, Al Qaeda and IRA are simply terrorrist groups. As far as responsiblity is concerned, the US took their responsiblity after the tsunami by giving help”
But yet the US had killed more humans than what those ‘terrorist’ groups had ever dream of. So what’s the difference, Robert? Just because the US is not a ‘terrorist’ then it can do whatever it wants without regard to human lives, and the sovereignity of other nations for that matter? And if the IRA, Al Qaeda etc. gave aid to some countries then can they be considered “responsible”, Robert?
“Suppose the US would not have given any help after the tsunami, what would your comment have been in that case? I suppose you would have been furious about the fact that th US didn’t do anything. Whatever the US government does it will never be good”¦.”
I would say, “Fine, take your blood money (or oil and blood smeared money), the Iraqis also needed their money” but I don’t know what the Acehnese will say and can’t speak on behalf of them. Besides, the aid was just a public relations gimmick after what they had done to Afghan and Iraq.
The US will be good on our account if it’s consistent, like giving aid but not attacking other countries on false pretenses just to grab their oil. No one likes hypocrites, Robert.
“Western countries are investing heavily in China and keep on doing this. China is on the rise and won’t be stopped, wether the US likes it or not.”
Because they don’t want to miss a chance to make a huge profit, like they usually do.
And yes, China won’t be stopped, not because the US wouldn’t stop them, but because they couldn’t. Was preventing China to enter WTO for some time not one of those efforts? And the Taiwan issue, either?
“What gave you that idea? Don’t get me wrong, if Indonesia wants to play a larger role on a regional or larger scale, they of ofcourse welcome to it”
We have the natural and geopolitical potential, but yes you’re right, there are way too many things to do before we can turn those potential into a real power.
___________________
Bin Camel:
“Hassan, you are excellent in manipulating other’s comments, dude”
Nah dude, I don’t think that missing some points of other people’s comments can be considered manipulation, homie!
“don’t take him serious, it just for fun or make him for fun.”
Yeah, I wouldn’t take you seriously either, hombre.
“patung owes him to attract more antagonist readers, don’t take him serious.”
What makes you think I’m not in Patung’s wage bill?
I should ask for a raise, all this typing is quite tiring you know. 😀Ali: You said,
“the main idea is to be so vague in wording his comments so that he could “gracefully” back out if he runs out of argument.”
Can you elaborate on the “vague” thing? What could be so vague in my comments?
And I never felt ever backing out of an argument, but yes sometimes I didn’t have the time necessary to reply all the comments addressed to myself. I tend to only answer one of the more current ones.You might not believe it but posting comments on forums like this one is not my full time job. 🙂
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Hassan, you’re missing the point…lagi.
I was not justifying any bad things that the American government has done.
I know it’s within human nature to succumb to power hunger, but brother, aren’t we humans and not animals? Didn’t God gave us the ability of reasoning to differentiate the right from the wrong and what we should or shouldn’t do instead of simply what we can or can’t do? That power of reasoning is too precious to only be utilized in a survival of the fittest manner, it doesn’t take an intelligent human to do that, even animals can do that sort of things.
This is a valid point, and it does not contradict anything I said. It would be nice to have an enlightened nation that did its best to help everyone else, wouldn’t it? The problem is that it is not realistic to expect any nation to go out of its way for things that it doesn’t consider to be “in the national interest”, and therefore it is not fair to criticize America for not being the world’s greatest humanitarian country.
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Robert: You said, “In your words, it sounds like that there a couple of politicians in Washington DC sitting behind their desks whose main goal is to decide who should be killed and who not.”
What makes you think there aren’t? )
What I meant to say that for these people, killing other people is a means to a goal (military, political, economical) and not a goal in itself. Politicians don’t do things for fun, they will always have an agenda.
Oh yes, you believed in world peace too right?
No wrong, I don’t believe in worldpeace. I don’t have any illusions as far as world peace is concerned. When I read your comment (to Peter) you seem to hold the human race in much higher esteem than I do. You say that we humans have advanced 1500 years, well that is only true in a technological and scientific way. But on a emotional scale we are still stuck. As long as that doesn’t change there will be wars and conflicts.
———-
But yet the US had killed more humans than what those ‘terrorist’ groups had ever dream of. So what’s the difference, Robert? Just because the US is not a ‘terrorist’ then it can do whatever it wants without regard to human lives, and the sovereignity of other nations for that matter?
Ofcourse the US shouldn’t do whatever it wants to do. The reality however is much more unruly, the US just do whatever they think is in their best interest, they don’t ask for permission. In your comment (to Peter) you mentioned the US as the leader of the pack and that the US had the responsibility to lead the rest of humanity by example. Here you are hitting the nail on his head. You consider them as the leader of the world, while it seems the US give a different meaning to world leadership than you have in mind. They put their own national interests higher on the agenda than other countries’ needs. This is just like most other countries would do, so I am not surprised and neither can I blame them for it. Ofcourse it would have been nicer if the US were the true humanitarian leaders of the world, but they just aren’t. It isn’t realistic.
———-And if the IRA, Al Qaeda etc. gave aid to some countries then can they be considered “responsible”, Robert?
If they would stop their terrorrist activities, and would be giving aid to people then they could be considered responsible. I am afraid however, that giving aid has a lower priority on their agenda, they are not in that kind of business. Creating a better a world isn’t exactly their creed.
———-I would say, “Fine, take your blood money (or oil and blood smeared money), the Iraqis also needed their money” but I don’t know what the Acehnese will say and can’t speak on behalf of them. Besides, the aid was just a public relations gimmick after what they had done to Afghan and Iraq.
The US will be good on our account if it’s consistent, like giving aid but not attacking other countries on false pretenses just to grab their oil. No one likes hypocrites, Robert.
I don’t like hypocrites either, so I could easily say that next time a disaster occurs the US should keep their blood stained money with them. But from my position it would be a very gratuitous remark living in a safe environment which is not plagued by tsunami’s and other disasters. Apart from that, I don’t think that the Acehnese people will share my opinion. You may label the US aid as a public relations gimmick, but when the tsunami occurred I didn’t get the impression that the Acehnese give a rat’s ass about who is giving them aid, as long as they get it.
———-
Because they don’t want to miss a chance to make a huge profit, like they usually do.
It takes two to tango. Western companies can invest in China because the Chinese government is allowing and encouraging investments. Otherwise there would be no investments at all. I don’t think the Chinese government consists out of philanthropists, so they will also get their big piece of the pie. And yes …capitalist companies make big profits, it is sad but true…it’s just the way the cookie crumbles.
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Hassan dude, wow, you are considered a peppery Moslem, typical Moslem of tooth replace tooth, blood replace blood? Lucky me only throw words to you, take it easy man, you are fun to me and entertaining, lets play football next time. 😀
I miss your reply, why don’t you volunteer to Poso as CIA agent? I dont think patung pays you more than USD 10 for playing words in this forum, besides 72 virgins bonus is waiting for you at the end of your Poso assignment. :))
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Peter:
“and therefore it is not fair to criticize America for not being the world’s greatest humanitarian country.”
It is, however, fair to criticize America for attacking other sovereign countries (like Iraq) without the mandate from UN just to get free oil (albeit not blood-free oil), isn’t it? 🙂
I know that kind of thing had happened before in the past, but in this modern times with its democracy and human rights, who else but the leader of the pack and the staunch advocate of democracy and human rights themselves who had violated international treaties in such a gross manner. Hypocrisy peter, and lack of restraint.
The fact that ‘the leader of the pack’ and the world’s only superpower setting such a bad precedent for the whole world deserve condemnation in itself.
And peter, I didn’t blame the US for not being the world’s greatest humanitarian country, it’s just a side note of ‘why not?’
Robert:
“What I meant to say that for these people, killing other people is a means to a goal (military, political, economical) and not a goal in itself. Politicians don’t do things for fun, they will always have an agenda.”
And that is justifiable? I think the word ‘politics’ is one of the most abused words in the vocabulary of humanity, to justify whatever animal tendencies and any sort of power hunger we ever had. It’s a word chosen whenever we decide to be more like animals than humans: laws of the jungle and “dog eats dog” behavior.
Bin Camel:
“I miss your reply, why don’t you volunteer to Poso as CIA agent?”
No thanks, special agent camel. Your CIA money does not interest me. 😀
The agency should hire a more professional and convincing recruiter, though.“I dont think patung pays you more than USD 10 for playing words in this forum, besides 72 virgins bonus is waiting for you at the end of your Poso assignment.”
You’ll be surprised how generous Patung can be. 😀
Besides, which religion promised about the that 72 virgins anyway? As far as I know, Islam is not that religion. Don’t believe me? Look it up! You’ll be surprised to know how ignorant people these days, they’ll swallow everything they hear.
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Hassan,
And that is justifiable? I think the word ‘politics’ is one of the most abused words in the vocabulary of humanity, to justify whatever animal tendencies and any sort of power hunger we ever had. It’s a word chosen whenever we decide to be more like animals than humans: laws of the jungle and “dog eats dog” behavior.
For me, the word ‘politics’ is not synonymous with ‘doing good’. The acts of politicians span the whole range from ‘doing very good’ to ‘doing very bad’. The latter is what you call laws of the jungle and “dog eats dog” behavior and is therefore not justifiable.
Unfortunately too many politicians cannot deal with the powers given to them and abuse those powers. Some of them become power hungry, or corrupt, or alienate from the people who elected them.
Therefore I am always suspicious towards politicians, because history shows that they are responsible for a lot of misery laid upon the human race. -
Dragonwall says:
So some whining guys said of twisted teaching by Christians, how about twisted teachings from uelamas, clerics, like Bahai and etc. What kind of teachings have you heard? Like Christians having 4 wives, or inciting the burning of mosques?
Ah.. A New Word Order..do you mean New World Order? You mean Islam a New World Order? Promoted by the Americans? Or do you mean Christianity promoted by Muslims? Which is which?
Just because the anti terror police were carrying out their duty, so they are finance by the US and Australian government? Kampungan No brainer.
@ Peter
1) Because the Americans wanted to become muslims and make their presence felt so that they could be appointed a uelama and control Indonesia.
2) The Americans could gain natural resources and perhaps Christian relics. It will be worth a lot during “lelang”.@ Cina Maling
1. That “kampret” (kampungan dipreteli) is a provocator from the very start and for that he thinks that he is so damn proud in proclaiming himself as one thinking every one will go along with his Islamic ideology.
2. He admitted earlier that he stole from his company and I am quite sure he robbed the Chinese store during the riots but pretended that he is that religious, that’s why. Of course he will not give you his share of the loot because he will spend it and rob again la. Otherwise how can you be a provocator. As along as you “Puasa” during Ramadhan all your sin will be overlooked by God. (Damn it we should be in the same business to get rich, shouldn’t we? And yet he is whinning about corruption, is he befitting?)People like him give Indonesia a bad name, or perhaps we should follow him rob the pribumi..hmmm wonder what he’s got..cat and chicken? In short it is “cachi”, so he is trying to mean that we should “caci” this bego. Next time if he uses cat an chicken as example we can start f@x?&*g him.
If you notice closely all his comments are stores and gudang of bullsh*t and mother goose story bla.bla.bla. unending talking without any human sense.
He doesn’t have any shame on him let alone any integrity except self proclaim pride.
As long as he puasa he is okay..dude
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