Hizbut Tahrir
Dec 28th, 2006, in News, by PatungHizbut Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) champions polygamy and rails against gender equality and domestic violence laws.
Aminah Yunus Rasyid of the Medan, North Sumatra branch of HTI said on the 19th of December during a demonstration outside the mayor’s office that the ideology of gender equality was a part of the trend towards liberalisation originating in the west that was being forced on Muslim women around the world.
About a hundred people were at the rally and they carried banners saying:
- Beware of the destruction of generations.
(Awas KKG! KKG = Kerusakan dan Kehancuran Generasi) - Polygamy is permissible, free sex is forbidden.
(Poligami Halal Vs Free Sex Haram) - Law for the destruction of Families and Households
(UU PKDRT = UU Penghancuran Keluarga dan Rumah Tangga) - Making polygamy illegal is against the law of God.
(Mengharamkan Poligami = Menentang Hukum Allah) - We’re proud to be Muslim mothers.
(Kami Bangga Menjadi Ibu Generasi Muslim)
They also performed some street theatre, a play entitled “Legalisasi Aborsi, Khitan Melanggar HAM”, Legalising Abortion and Circumcision Violates Human Rights, in which they critiqued the wrong-headed modern tendency towards allowing abortion, which they say is not permissible according to Islam, while the government strove to stamp out female circumcision, a practice which is permitted within Islam.
Aminah said that Muslim women had to be on guard against the efforts of many to portray men and women as the same, against the campaign to enact a sexual equality law and the legalisation of abortion, because these things were intended to divorce Muslims from the law of God.
We can imagine what will happen if our feminine side is lost, to the point where we no longer want to look after a house and we leave our children just because we are busy trying to feel equal with men.
(Kita bisa membayangkan apa yang akan terjadi bila sisi kefeminiman kita dihilangkan dari diri kita, sehingga kita tidak mau lagi mengurusi rumah tangga dan meninggalkan anak-anak kita hanya karena sibuk dengan urusan agar kita merasa setara dengan laki-laki. republika
)
Lampung HTI Women March.
A similar theme was heard in Bandar Lampung, Lampung on the 21st of December as about 500 women and girls of Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia protested against the liberalisation of family life, and specifically against the law on domestic violence, UU Kekerasan dalam Rumah Tangga (KDRT) and the law for the protection of children, UU Perlindungan Anak. The women claimed that both laws threaten the integrity of the family. Domestic violence, they said, should be blamed on men’s lack of understanding of their correct role within the family. metrotv
Speech by HTI Makassar Women.
In Makassar, South Sulawesi, about 500 HTI women also rallied in support of similar themes on the 22nd of December. l6
146 Comments on “Hizbut Tahrir”
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Hassan,
Where’s the garden of paradise? Did Allah SWT and the angels descended to earth when Allah SWT ordered the angels and iblis to bow to Adam and then banished iblis when he refused? Who’s Adam’s mother and father? What did Allah meant by taking one of Adam’s ribs to create Hawa?
Does it really matter to your religious life where the Gardens of Paradise are? Does it really matter where Iblis was when he was ordered to bow down to Adam?
Where in Al Quran does it say that Allah took one of Adams rib’s? That is an Old Testament Story Hassan, do you also believe the Old Testament part of the Story that says Adam and his wife were created in the Image of God? Don’t forget that Allah says the Old Testament is corrupted, do you know which parts?
If the story is factual, and Allah just created Adam and His Wife, and reading Al Quran tells us:
“And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).”5:27
So Adam and his Wife only had two sons, This means that to procreate and start populating the earth that the sons would have had to have sex with their mother? Then her offspring would also have to have sex together.
Sons having sex with their Mothers, Brothers and Sisters having sex with each other, might happen in some remote parts of the world Hassan, but not the way that Allah created the human race I would suggest!
Foot binding has nothing to do with Natural Selection or Evolution Hassan, how can bound feet be genetically passed to the next generation?
Before you reject Evolution I would suggest that you at least understand what it is.
Peace Brother
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Tomaculum says:
Hassan, allow me to comment some of your words.
“Polygamy is hurtful, that’s true. But divorce and affairs (selingkuh) is just as hurtful. Can you say that polygamy is more hurtful than divorce or selingkuh? It’s terrible, but we can’t avoid fate.”
and
“I am in support of polygamy not because i like it or because I wanted to practice it, but because my religion allowed it (not encouraged it) and i think we shouldn’t disallow what God had allowed for us.”
I think that is not the question/problem. Most of affairs (selingkuh) are hurting, polygamy (incl. polygyny) can hurt. It is no doubt, that polygyny (not polygamy or polygynandry) is allowed, but – and here we find most of the problems – with severe preconditions. One of the most important precoonditions is – to my opinion – the deep hearted agreement of all involved, especially of the first wife.
And what about the case if the government law doesn’t allow polygamy (incl. polygyny, polygamy and polygynandry)?
“If Abraham felt that it will hurt badly to see his one and only son, Ismail, be sacrificed by his own hand then he wouldn’t do it? We knew he did.”
And what would you do, Hassan?
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Hassan says:
Mohammed Khafi:
“Does it really matter to your religious life where the Gardens of Paradise are? Does it really matter where Iblis was when he was ordered to bow down to Adam?”
It may not matter for our personal religious lives, but it does matter for the sake of truth. Why did Allah SWT wrote those things in the Quran if it didn’t exist? Al Quran is a clear message, if Allah told us something exists, then it exists.
Quran 36:17 “And our duty is only to proclaim the clear message.”
Clear message means non-symbolic. PArables and allegories yes, symbolic and cryptic words no.
“So Adam and his Wife only had two sons, This means that to procreate and start populating the earth that the sons would have had to have sex with their mother? Then her offspring would also have to have sex together.”
Actually the wording of the verse is “And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam”, if Adam had only 2 sons it will say “And relate to them the story of the two children of Adam”. Then it will be clear that Adam had 2 children, and both of them are male. However, obviously since the Quran didn’t use the word “children” there is a possibility that Adam had daughters as well. WAllahu’alam.
The thing is, evolution was not mentioned in the Quran. The verses you used as the basis of your arguments are clearly ambiguous. Read my previous post regarding those verses.
Tell me Khafi, using your way of thinking, does that means Adam and Hawa’s parents are semi-apes? So, Allah SWT didn’t consider them as humans?
There are several questions that you haven’t given the answers to:
– What really happened in terms of the creation of mankind, according to your theory? And how does Adam relate to your story?
– Your theory contradicts Quran 6:98. “It is He Who hath produced you from a single person: here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure: We detail Our signs for people who understand.” Your explanation? Don’t tell me it’s allegoric as well.
– Did they not (the evolutionists) systematically discriminated other scientists who didn’t believe in the ‘doctrine’ of evolution? If it was the obvious truth, that kind of indoctrination wouldn’t be necessary.“Before you reject Evolution I would suggest that you at least understand what it is.”
I had studied about evolution, and i realized it’s not just about feet bindings and fossil finds. I put it that way to make a long discussion short and to make my point that certain things don’t add up in the evolution theory.
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Tomaculum: You said,
“One of the most important precoonditions is – to my opinion – the deep hearted agreement of all involved, especially of the first wife.”
For a law to be effective, it must be practical. Realistically, most women will never whole heartedly agree to polygamy. Hence, the preconditions you set will make polygamy almost impossible, hence the law became uneffective (obsolete). So what’s the point of God allowing polygamy if humans made it impossible to do with their preconditions?
Just because most smokers will never (willingly) agree to a public smoking ban doesn’t mean we must ask for their whole hearted approval before we enact laws to ban smoking in public places. Just because most boys would never (willingly) want to be circumcised doesn’t mean we should set a precondition of complete whole hearted agreement from those children before the circumcision procedures are commenced. )
“And what would you do, Hassan?”
Comparing ourselves to Abraham is almost impossible. We are nowhere as pious as he was. And he was a prophet, while we are just common folks.
Perhaps you were suggesting that we should rebel against God’s wishes? No? I thought so.
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Hassan,
“For a law to be effective, it must be practical. Realistically, most women will never whole heartedly agree to polygamy. Hence, the preconditions you set will make polygamy almost impossible, hence the law became uneffective (obsolete). So what’s the point of God allowing polygamy if humans made it impossible to do with their preconditions?”
and
“Just because most smokers will never (willingly) agree to a public smoking ban doesn’t mean we must ask for their whole hearted approval before we enact laws to ban smoking in public places. Just because most boys would never (willingly) want to be circumcised doesn’t mean we should set a precondition of complete whole hearted agreement from those children before the circumcision procedures are commenced.”
In An-Nisa we can read
“….but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly [with them], then only one, or those which your right hands possess.”
To deal justify belongs – to my humble opinion as a non-Muslim – to take care of their feelings. If the first wife don not agree with the polygamy and the man do it without respect for this, is it deal justify and isn’t it against Gods law? And that is just one of the preconditions. If this is wrong, I would like to apologise for my nescience, I would like to beg you then to write the preconditions (Hassan, it isn’ irony, but an earnest question).
And, Hassan, you compare smoking and polygamy? Off target, isn’t it?
And if a boy don’t like to have the circumcision he has to be forced? And if a girl don’t like circumcision, is she also to be forced? Or is circumcision just for boys? Is this actually a must?
“Comparing ourselves to Abraham is almost impossible. We are nowhere as pious as he was. And he was a prophet, while we are just common folks.”
You have compared us with Abraham, not me. 🙂
“Perhaps you were suggesting that we should rebel against God’s wishes? No? I thought so.”
Is that your only conclusion of my words, Hassan? Few, isn’t it? You can end every discussion with such platitudes.
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Dimp says:
Hi Hassan,
I was not referring to you alone in my comments, but to anyone who are just wasting their time arguing here, but not actually doing anything. If you have done something for the community then good, I admire your actions.
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Ihaknt says:
Our beloved friend Hassan said
At least in polygamy, her rights and dignity as a wife is still intact, and her children will not be raised in a broken home. She would only have to contend with the broken heart, and the broken ego.
NOT NECESSARILY!!! who do you think you are speaking on behalf of these women who probably are suicidal knowing that she is not as loved anymore for whatever reasons! Women’s rights and dignity are always intact, with a husband or not! Being an ex-wife doesnt mean women lose their dignity and rights. We actually gather more rights! If we found out our partner was fooling around behind our back, whoa….that’s just a guarantee we would get the house, the car, financial support and full custody of the kids, plus the man will have to pay for whatever legal fees involved. Some women are not dumb Hassan, sorry to tell you.
Why are you belittling women? Nonetheless without them there is no ‘oven’ to bake your offsprings. And do you really think the broken heart and ego are the only things these women would ONLY have to put up with? It’s not that simple Hassan!
Second issue. being raised in a broken home DOES NOT always guarantee the kids will turn out bad. Many are as just successful as any people raised in a ‘full’ home. And many raised in a ‘full’ home turned as f***** up as anyone possibly can. Do you think being raised in an evironment where the parents fight all the time, mum cries all the time, dad yells a lot, abusive – verbal or/and phisycal, is any better even if the parents stick together and pretend that there is nothing wrong? Do you think being raised in a home where dad keeps marrying girls who are probably 3 decades younger than him, is better than a broken home?
kids learn from what they see. When they see abusive parents more likely than not they will become abusive themselves. it’s a vicious cycle and only strong willpower can break it. Sometimes 2 people are better apart than together.Another question for you. What if it was your dad who wanted to get married again, with someone who is clearly younger, more attractive, and your mum became upset, suicidal, and constantly crying…how would you feel? You probably wont care about your mother or sisters the way you speak about women, you probably think they are just burdens for you.
I doubt that polygamy is law of God. BS! that’s just an interpretation done to suit men, their own needs and desires! Urusan dosa is in God’s hands! Not man’s!
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Julita says:
1. Homosexual, lesbian are still human they have their social rights.
As long as they didnt do”¦like inviting to their ‘loving'”¦its tolerated.
Because any religion didnt welcome those wrong sexual alignment.
I welcome them in social relationship and friendship only. But not in religious areas, because religion banned them.Indra have you heard of the ‘Law of Love’.
“The woman caught in adultery.” The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act committing adultery to Jesus, and they made her stand before them all. According to them the Law of Moses commanded them that such a woman must be stoned to death. They say to Jesus: “Now, what do you say? Jesus’ answer was: “Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her”. When they heard this they left one by one. To the woman Jesus said:” “Where are they?” Is there no one left to condemn you?” “No one, Sir.” She answered. “Well, then” Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but do not sin again.
The Son of God was born into the world exactly because of this, SIN. He came and suffered on the cross because of His immense love to redeem us. To open the gate of heaven, to reconcile us with God. He condemns the act of sin, He forgives us and love us, sinners.
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1ndra says:
Wew, these discussion are becoming hot. 🙂
Easy down people.Polygamy only valid when the husband got his wife approval, that’s it. If the wife become upset, suicidal, stressed, you mention it, then it’s her sign of no-approval, then the man couldn’t do poligamy.
The environment makes people. There times good people become bad just because they moved to ‘full of sins’ environment. I’ve forget where the verses are, but in Quran, there’s a social education not to mix good people with bad people.
Well, this page is getting heavy to load, maybe this is my last comment.
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The environment makes people. There times good people become bad just because they moved to ‘full of sins’ environment. I’ve forget where the verses are, but in Quran, there’s a social education not to mix good people with bad people.
what are good people and bad people??? And if you were easily corrupted then yes, of course if you were in this so-called sinful environment you could be dragged to the same pattern. But if you were strong minded then you had as much a chance to also influence these people to follow you to become (hopefully) better behave.
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The environment makes people. There times good people become bad just because they moved to ‘full of sins’ environment.
That is the point! But, which one is the good environment …. ? What is good, what is bad? What is sin?
We will miss you with your interesting comments, 1ndra!
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Hassan,
Al Quran is a clear message, if Allah told us something exists, then it exists.
“He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.” 3:7
A dictionary definition of Allegory:
Allegory
A figurative illustration of truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience in a narrative or description by the use of symbolic fictional figures and actions which resemble the subject’s properties and circumstances.Then it will be clear that Adam had 2 children, and both of them are male. However, obviously since the Quran didn’t use the word “children” there is a possibility that Adam had daughters as well. WAllahu’alam.
I have the same problem with this Hassan, are you suggesting it is ok for Adam’s children to have sex with each other to populate the world, hardly God like is it?
Tell me Khafi, using your way of thinking, does that means Adam and Hawa’s parents are semi-apes? So, Allah SWT didn’t consider them as humans?
No Hassan I am suggesting that they were Hominids, that is part of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, which includes humans. Do you know that there is ony a 2% difference in the DNA of Humans and Chimpanzees, that could account for some of the behaviour we see around us in our human world. One other thing that distinguishes us from the Chimpanzees recently learned at Yale University is that apparently Chimpanzee babies learn from experience whilst Human Babies imitate what they see, Pity humans couldn’t do the same thing!
What really happened in terms of the creation of mankind, according to your theory? And how does Adam relate to your story?
I don’t have a theory about the creation of mankind, I am following the work of renowned scientists, who are trying to piece together our planets history, If their theories make good sense from a scientific point of view and they have good evidence supporting them I am going to take that information and see how it fits with Al Quran, so far to me there is sufficient evidence from Al Quran that it is from the Lord of Creation.
– Your theory contradicts Quran 6:98. “It is He Who hath produced you from a single person: here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure: We detail Our signs for people who understand.” Your explanation? Don’t tell me it’s allegoric as well.
Mitochondrial Eve is the answer to that question:
While each of us necessarily has two parents, we get our mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA from the ovum (and hence from our mothers). Our mothers got their mitochondrial DNA from their mothers and so on. Thus, while our nuclear DNA is a mish-mash of the DNA of our four grandparents, our mitochondrial DNA is an almost exact copy of the DNA of our maternal grandmother (the match may not be exact due to mutations. In fact, the mutations in the mitochondrial DNA provide the molecular clock that allows us to determine how much time has elapsed since the Mitochondrial Eve lived).
The Mitochondrial Eve represents that woman whose mitochondrial DNA (with mutations) exists in all the humans now living on Earth.For more on Mitochondrial Eve look here: Mitochondrial Eve-An Explanation.
So it appears that we can all be produced from a single person, so the theory doesn’t contradict Al Quran, for me it reinforces it. Who else 1400 years ago other than Allah could have know such a thing?
Did they not (the evolutionists) systematically discriminated other scientists who didn’t believe in the ‘doctrine’ of evolution? If it was the obvious truth, that kind of indoctrination wouldn’t be necessary.
You are of course quite correct that discrimination of this sort is completely unnacceptable, the debate between Evolution and Intelligent Design must be allowed to go on unhindered. However this sort of discrimination is not just found in the fields of Science, what about those like myself who propose an alternative to mainstream Islam, in some countries we are branded as apostates and condemned to death!
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It is interesting to read your opinions about things. Yes, the most intelligent human being has not got all the answers. This is one of the reasons religion is splitting on and on. One leader/one shepherd/one teacher will is good. Each of us are given a talent, different kinds of talent and interpreting such a complicated matter, discussion is interesting and healthy but then hopefully it comes to the correct conclusion. I follow you now and then.
Moslems as well as Christians believe in One God the Almighty and yet it is interesting, from the Holy Qur’an as well as the Holy Bible, read the following:
O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.”
22:5
From the Bible, Genesis 1:26
Then God said: Let US make a man in OUR image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦.that crawl on the ground.
What do the words WE, US and OUR stand for? They are plural, no?
Somebody wrote:
You speak about the trinity “doctrin”, why so deprecative? Maybe it is all also Al Qur’an or haddis “doctrine”?
I’m not sure I understand this. Can you elaborate on this?
________________Along the lines I read you discussion about the Trinity. The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons. Each of them is God whole and entire. The Creator(God the Father), Jesus(God the Son) and God the Holy Spirit . John 15:26 The Helper will come – the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God and who comes from the Father. The same Holy Spirit came down from heaven when Jesus was baptized, guides the apostles etc. etc.
That is the little explanation, though very interesting that Allah refer to himself as WE in the Qur’an. Or perhaps any of you have other explanation about this. Would be
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Julita asked:
What do the words WE, US and OUR stand for? They are plural, no?
In this case the plural pronoun is used to refer one person alone.
WE OUR US meaning:
Pluralis Majestatis (“majestic plural”) is the plural pronoun where it is used to refer to one person alone. This is also known as the “royal ‘we'” or the “Victorian ‘we'” because it has usually been restricted to august personages such as monarchs, bishops, popes, and university rectors. The idea behind the pluralis majestatis is that a monarch or other high official always speaks for his or her people.For more on Pluralis Majestatis.
Julita,
Can you help me by explaining more about the true nature of ‘Trinity’. As I understand it this concept was only formed at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, and is only really supported by the Gospel of John. Has for instance, Jesus himself ever been recorded as calling himself God?
Peace
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Grace and Mercy says:
M Khafi you ask Julita:
Has for instance, Jesus himself ever been recorded as calling himself God?
No he never says “I am God”, and for a reason. Anybody saying that will be killed instantaneously especially in those times. Blasphemy is punishable by stoning.
He did say “I AM the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me” In another place he says ” I AM the good shepherd”. In that time, any Jewish person knows he’s referring to himself as to the I AM found in the boook of Exodus 3:14, when in the burning bush Moses asked “who are you” and God revealed Himself to Moses by saying “I AM who I AM”
Another instance where His action claimed he was God, is when Jesus and His disciples were in the boat, and there was a storm and He calmed the storm. Any good Jewish person in that time would know the other person who could calm the water was God, when he part the Red Sea to let the Israelites cross the water.
Another action that claimed He was God is when he said to the person who was lame at his feet found in Matthew 9:1-6 “Son your sins are forgiven. Get up and walk” Who else is able to forgive sin but God?
When he said to the women caught in adultery found in John 8:10-11 “Neither do I condemn you, go and leave your life of sin” his word claimed the characteristic of God in the Old Testament, where in the book of Jonah (Yunus) 4:2 when he said “you are a compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love”
Another thing I want to point out my brother is that in the Bible I am told that God through Jesus Christ, died for me, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven SO that I can have forgiveness of sin. He is preparing a place for me, and I know with absolute certainty where I am going after I leave this earth. Through Jesus I am able to say that for me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
I was LOST, full of sin but because I have accepted Him and what He did on the cross, I am forgiven. I am still a sinner, far from perfect, but I know that through Jesus, God is faithful to forgive. I love him because He loved me first. I have a personal relationship with a true and living God. He empowers me.
I try everyday to live a good life NOT to gain blessings or “pahala” so that MAYBE when I die I hope I have won enoght God’s favor and maybe go to heaven. In Christ, heaven is already guaranteed for me. No, i try to live a good life everyday because of my love for my God.
I know that His Spirit is in me, when I accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior. This Spirit, the Holy Spirit helps me, so that everyday my obedience to God is better than the previous day.
Now isn’t that a promise worth considering? God bless you!
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Julita, I must correct you on your Genesis. Moh. Khafi is right in that, the word translated to “We” in Genesis is a way to address someone (in this case God) in respect.
On the subject of the Trinity; in which I am sad that many of my Christian brothers and sisters are not so well educated in this issue.
The church forefathers read Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 1And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
and came up with the idea of a Trinity.
We Christian’s don’t believe there are 3 Gods. We believe there is only one God. Otherwise we would have deleted the Old Testament where it says in Deutoronomy 6:4-5 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
God is One coexisting eternally in three personality, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit each having its different roles.
How is that not three you may ask?
To explain the Trinity in the simplest form. We always exist in different personallity. At home I am “mr. abcde” the husband to my wife and father to my daughter, that’s two personality already with two distinct roles. In my parents house I am “mr. abcde” the son and my role is different. In the office, I am “mr. abcde” the manager, another personality with a different role.
So when I speak in prayer to God as my Father, I am like a child to Him and He is the one who provides for my need just like a Father does.
When I speak to God through Jesus I speak to Him like a friend because God through Jesus in John 15:15 said “I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.” And through God’s role through Jesus have forgiveness of sin.
When God empowers me, He empowers me by His Spirit the Holy Spirit. This Spirit beckons my heart to obey God, strengthen me to love others and do good deeds.
I hope that kind of gives you a simple understanding.
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Grace and Mercy,
Thank you for your efforts to explain to me the meaning of Trinity. From what I have researched myself, even Preachers and Religious scholars sometimes find it difficult.
Ultimately we can only strive to be good people, be tolerant and loving, helping those who are less fortunate than ourselves, and to be fair and just. It is a great shame that we we cannot develop a multi denominational place of prayer in this country, to show that we can all be accepting of our brothers and sisters in God!
Somehow I feel that I know where the objections to something of this sort would come from!
I admire your devotion and love of God, I guess we are both travellers on the same road, but just in different lanes.
Peace
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Mohammed Khafii:
Thanks for your explaining the “WE” in the Qur’an.
The Holy Father would use “we” when he speaks for the Catholics, the Christians etc. as is suitable. Though for himself he would use (I) see the following, so it depends on the situation.
Quoted from the Holy Father Benedict XVI’s writing:
The fact that the Lord knows how to work and to act even with inadequate instruments comforts ME, and above all I entrust myself to your prayers.
Let us (Catholics) move forward in the joy of the Risen Lord.
Grace and Mercy, I think you have to go back and check on this.
The Lord, God referring to himself in the following. Note how God use: I, we, us, our. I happened to get this from a very qualified instructor. The Trinity exist already at the time of creation.And now we (Holy Trinity) will make human beings; they will be like us (Holy Trinity), Never again will I (God) destroy all living beings, as I (God) have done this time.
I (God) have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat.
I (God) will make you (the devil) and the woman hate each other, her off spring and yours will always be enemies.
The Lord God said: “Now the man has become like one of us.In the above sentence:
Lord God is one of the Trinity.
Man is Adam a human being with a body.
Like one of us is like Jesus, Son of God with a body, one of the Holy Trinity.
Us is the Holy Trinity.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm explain more elaborate on “The Dogma of the Trinity” here is a simple sample:
Grace and Mercy said:
1. To explain the Trinity in the simplest form. We always exist in different personality. At home I am “mr. abcde” the husband to my wife and father to my daughter, that’s two personality already with two distinct roles. In my parents house I am “mr. abcde” the son and my role is different. In the office, I am “mr. abcde” the manager, another personality with a different role.
The Holy Trinity is a mystery in the Christian Faith. The divine persons are really distinct from one another. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are really distinct from on another. He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.
From the dictionary: If something is distinct from something else of the same type, it is recognizably different.
In the above I wonder Grace and Mercy, is mr abcde recognizably different from one another. I think he is he same for instance with glasses, curley hair wherecer he goes. Just wondering?
The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness” (Const., “De fide. cath.”, iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message.
Let me try, three distinct persons in One. While I play the piano I sing. My right hand (is not my left hand, but it is me) play the melody, my left hand (is not my mouth, but it is me) plays the accompaniment, and my mouth (is not my right hand, but it is me) sing the words. They are all three distinct and yet it is ME playing and singing.
God the Father is not God the Son, God the Son is not God the Holy Spirit, God the Holy Spirit is not God the Father, but all three are One, in GOD.
Angel Gabriel to Virgin Mary giving a message from God:
“The Holy Spirit(of the Trinity) will come upon you, and the power of the Most High( of God, the Trinity) will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy, the Son of God(of the Trinity).As soon as Jesus (of the Trinity) was baptized, he came up of the water. Then heaven was opened to him (John the Baptist), and he saw the SPIRIT OF GOD coming down like a dove and lighting on him. Then a voice said from heaven from God the Father): THIS IS MY OWN DEAR SON, WITH WHOM I AM PLEASED.’
John 14-17
Yes, many times in the Gospel of John, Jesus explains about himself as equal to God the Father: Whoever hates me, hates my Father
Jesus prays to God: All I have is yours; and all you have is mine.
Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me
Now that you have known me, you will know my Father also, and from now on you do know him and you have seen him.
Whoever have seen me has seen the Father
I am in the Father and the Father is in me.The miracles he did: Walking on the water, calming the stormy sea, bring to life a person who was 3 days dead, Jesus feeding four thousand people from 7 loaves of bread, His death on the Cross, his resurrection and ascension. All of these shows he has the power of God.
Well that is what I come up with.
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Hi Julita,
I agree, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist looooooong before creation. However, the Hebrew word that is translated to “us” that is in Genesis “Let us make man in our image” is not God refferring to Himself as plural.
It is like M. Khafi said a form of Pluraris Majestatis. I forgot the Hebrew word at the moment, but I’ll look it up. But it was a word used in Hebrew in the Ancient Near East to address Pluralisis Majestis.
…and thank you for your take in explaining the Trinity. I’m just trying to explain it in the plainest and simplest form which is what you are doing exactly with the piano illustration.
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Julita,
Thanks for you time and effort.
You said:
The Holy Father would use “we” when he speaks for the Catholics, the Christians etc. as is suitable. Though for himself he would use (I) see the following, so it depends on the situation.
Popes used the we as part of their formal speech up until recent times. John Paul I was the first to dispense with this practice, instead using the singular I. John Paul II continued to use the singular as has Benedict XVI.
From what I see, and what I have researched, our thinking and direction can be clearly directed by the translators of our Scriptures. Your verses quoted above from Genesis, have additions (in brackets) which are not in the original scripts, also they appear to be different in some ways from the King James Version of the Bible.
If I am correct in chosing the verses:
And now we (Holy Trinity) will make human beings; they will be like us (Holy Trinity),
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Genesis 1:26
Never again will I (God) destroy all living beings, as I (God) have done this time.
“And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.” Genesis 9:11
I (God) have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat.
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Genesis 1:29
I (God) will make you (the devil) and the woman hate each other, her off spring and yours will always be enemies.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15
The Lord God said: “Now the man has become like one of us.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26?
It would appear that we all need to be careful with what we read, and use logic and reasoning in our search for the truth, not just blindly follow the teachers.
I still have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity. To my understanding, God is God, Jesus is the Word and the Holy Spirit is the undefinable power of God which does his bidding. I just cannot see that they are all the same thing. I am not disputing Jesus’s, his teachings or his healing etc, I just cannot see that God would need to manifest himself as an ordinary mortal man to do his work. Without John’s Gospel I feel that there would not even be a concept of Trinity.
Peace Julita, and thanks again for you attempts to expain to me.
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Hi Bro. Khafi I truly enjoy having a discussion with you.
I just cannot see that God would need to manifest himself as an ordinary mortal man to do his work.
In my simple understanding, because ever since the Old Testament, God always wanted to reach out to His Creation.
Even when Adam and Eve fell into sin, it was God who called out to them looking for them (Genesis 3:8-9).
The epitomy of God wanting to reach out to His people is His manifestation in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. He’s trying to say “This is how much I love you”.
Blessings!
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Hi Mohammed Khafi,
I still have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity. To my understanding, God is God, Jesus is the Word and the Holy Spirit is the undefinable power of God which does his bidding.
Honestly I don’t understand the concept itself, but to me I don’t relate religion based on the “words”, I regards religion as a way, as a guide for one to better him/herself in his/her conduct in life. As long as he/she can conduct him/herself as a better person than I don’t have any issue.
Thus my harsh comments against some posters here, who forced their opinions to others making stupid remarks, bashing other religions, other races, or countries, blaming others for his/her own misfortune based on religions.
Peace be with you, hope you find what you are looking for in life.
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I regard religion as a way, as a guide for one to better him/herself in his/her conduct in life. As long as he/she can conduct him/herself as a better person than I don’t have any issue.
That is great, there are many religions, all try to live a good life according to their believe, and all have to live in harmony, try to dialogue if they want to live together. No forcing on others one’s believe, they will learn from our sample in life. Though if someone say something wrong or undermine others. I think even when it does not effect us, we should explain. As you said, words are not the important part in religion, many do not understand every single thing about God, heaven and death, that is why it is called FAITH.
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Ihaknt : I’m sorry for being late in responding to your previous post,
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sgn says:
Mohammed Khafi Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
I still have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity. To my understanding, God is God, Jesus is the Word and the Holy Spirit is the undefinable power of God which does his bidding. I just cannot see that they are all the same thing.
I acknowledge ‘that concept’ is not easy to be understood.
When I was in the other side and was still thinking that Bible was not pure and has been modified, I questioned myself: Why didn’t someone added the word Trinity to that book? Fool Christians!!!
I am not disputing Jesus’s, his teachings or his healing etc,
Great, that is a very good start.
From his teaching and his healing you would see the characteristics of Jesus, and how much he loves people like us. He spoke to the poors, the riches, the sinners, the sicks, etc. He is full of love. He never asked his follower to hurt others.I just cannot see that God would need to manifest himself as an ordinary mortal man to do his work.
At the beginning, I could not see either. Why God Almighty needed to sacrifice himself!!! Why didn’t God Almighty send an angel and punished the sinner who did not want to repent, one-by-one, in front of his/her family, relative, or neighbours?
Until, I understand what “LOVE” is.
Without John’s Gospel I feel that there would not even be a concept of Trinity.
Well, I would say don’t force yourself to accept the concept of Trinity. Concepts are less important than the fact that Jesus loves you and me.
Do you remember the lyric of the old song “TUHAN” by BIMBO below?
Reff:
Aku jauh Engkau jauh
Aku dekat Engkau dekat
…The God that I praise is not like that. God always be my side, eventhough often I made Him sad.
/sgn
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Ihaknt : I’m sorry for being late in responding to your previous post. You said:
“NOT NECESSARILY!!! who do you think you are speaking on behalf of these women”
I didn’t speak on behalf of those women. I was merely answering your question with my own opinion. You did asked me “If your daughter’s husband tells her that he wants to take another wife”, didn’t you? So i answered that question by using my own opinion as the father of my daughter, as mentioned in your example.
“Women’s rights and dignity are always intact, with a husband or not! Being an ex-wife doesnt mean women lose their dignity and rights.”
Exactly my point. Now let’s use reverse logic, do you think that a woman who’s the second, third, or fourth wive of a polygamous husband will loose her dignity?? I guess not.
“We actually gather more rights! If we found out our partner was fooling around behind our back, whoa”¦.that’s just a guarantee we would get the house, the car, financial support and full custody of the kids, plus the man will have to pay for whatever legal fees involved”
Was that all that mattered for a woman? Houses, cars, money, etc? Is that why the US had one of the world’s highest divorce rate? What about the kids? What about their needs? Don’t they need a father figure and the nurturing of a complete family? Next husband, huh? 🙂
“Why are you belittling women?”
When did I belittle women? Just because i chose to comfort and support my daughter rather than punching the son-in-law in the nose gave you the impression?
“Second issue. being raised in a broken home DOES NOT always guarantee the kids will turn out bad. Many are as just successful as any people raised in a ‘full’ home. And many raised in a ‘full’ home turned as f***** up as anyone possibly can”
Enrolling your children in Harvard or Yale DOES NOT always guarantee the kids will turn up ‘smart’ (Bush is a good example), but it helps their chances to be ‘smart’. The same logic applies to ‘full’ home.
“When they see abusive parents more likely than not they will become abusive themselves. it’s a vicious cycle and only strong willpower can break it. Sometimes 2 people are better apart than together.”
And ALL polygamous marriages will result in abusive parents? Was that generalizing, or were you being assumptive? And when 2 people are better apart than together then they better divorce, rather than committing polygamy. 😀
“Another question for you. What if it was your dad who wanted to get married again, with someone who is clearly younger, more attractive, and your mum became upset, suicidal, and constantly crying”¦how would you feel?”
Off course I would try to convince him not to do that (as i would to my son-in-law in the previous example), but if that doesn’t succeed then it’s out of my hands.
“you probably think they are just burdens for you”
Stereotyping?
“I doubt that polygamy is law of God. BS! that’s just an interpretation done to suit men, their own needs and desires!”
Did that conclusion come after a thorough research of the Quran and other religious books or was that just your assumption, because you wanted it to be that way? Or more precisely, it must be that way! Pokoke..
“Urusan dosa is in God’s hands! Not man’s!”
Indeed, but we must try to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong by interpreting the holy texts. It will give us the guidelines we need in life. A good Muslim shouldn’t ignore the need to understand of the laws of their religion or act “gimana di akhirat aja deh!” 🙂
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Great inter-religious discussion going on here. I hope it will increase our understanding of our individual knowledge of each others religion. And yes, the trinity was always a tough topic to discuss. It’s good to know that some people in this forum still talks about something with ‘quality’ and made sense.
I am totally speechless after reading some of the comments made by the ONO’s on the other threads. I was beginning to worry that this forum will start to evolve into a place that is perfect to ‘ngebanyol’ rather than to discuss matters in Indonesia.
Mohammed Khafi: I had read that link you provided about mitochondrial eve. But unfortunately i found it to be just another justification by atheist scientists in their refusal to acknowledge the existence of God.
When scientific evidences proved that women from all the ages shared a certain DNA string with a single woman who lived in Africa 200,000 years ago, instead of acknowledging the woman (Eve) as the same Eve/Hawa mentioned in the Quran, torah, and bible, they sidestepped it by saying that she was a survivor because she and her seeds (off springs) had better genes and luck than her contemporaries. Why? Because those scientists nullified any possibilities that the Holy Scriptures were correct in their description. They WILL find other justifications that contradicts the Holy Scriptures in the future, I can safely guarantee that.
As I said, evidence and theories can be tampered with by using any rationalizing, but their motives cannot be hidden. Did you not realize our sense of reasoning (akal) is limited and easily fooled? Where was it (akal) when you’re drunk or asleep? Where was it when you’re figuring out about the life after death or indeed when figuring out Allah SWT?
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Tomaculum:
“And, Hassan, you compare smoking and polygamy? Off target, isn’t it?”
What I meant was that should the government asked the full hearted consent of smokers all across the nation (via polling or something) before implementing an anti-public smoking law? We know the smokers will surely object. As will most women when their husbands asked for their consent before re-marrying.
The thing that smokers and polygamy had in common in that example was that both parties will object if someone tried to do anything that is against their natural tendencies. But we must put the tendencies of the non-smokers and the husbands with polygamous tendencies in the calculations as well, don’t we? Or can we say that the smokers and the wives had more rights than the non-smokers and the husbands who wanted to commit polygamy?
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Andrew says:
Hassan, the scientists speak on behalf of science, and science is about -of course- scientific facts. I am on the same side as you are here in terms of believing that our books are true and correct, and I never take it with a grain of salt. However, it is my opinion that certain part of the Bible contains symbolic message from God. Not every single word in there can or should be interpreted literally – I simply don’t think a book of a few thousand pages can accurately document every single details of our existence on earth.
There are a lot of messages embedded or symbolized in the Adam and Eve creation depicted in the Bible. One of them is that it symbolizes human beings emerging into consciousness, emerging into a sense of values, of truth, beauty, and goodness, but at the same time being free so they can reject those values. They can become beasts as well as angels, if you’d like. And this fact is what alienates us from each other and from God. We’re not yet what God intended us to be.
I look at all scientific discoveries from a different point of view. Those are hard facts. However, the fact that those scientists discovered so many things (that seemingly contradicts our religious understanding) serves only as a reinforcement that God created this universe with all its intricate details as a perfect creation in the beginning. How do the cells in our nose know they should grow in that shape? why don’t we grow limbs on our head? ever wonder why different kinds of bacteria exist? we are just beginning to find answers to those questions. The more I learn the more I am awed by how perfect God created this universe in the beginning. Until we human start to ruin it, one way or another.
I’m sure we will find contradictions between faith and science everywhere if we want to. I prefer to approach it differently, and appreciate science as a way God gives us to understand his creations. Science and faith complement each other.
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Dear Friend Hassan,
But we must put the tendencies of the non-smokers and the husbands with polygamous tendencies in the calculations as well, don’t we? Or can we say that the smokers and the wives had more rights than the non-smokers and the husbands who wanted to commit polygamy?
For me the comparison is still out off target.
The smokers have to consider the needs of the non-smoker. If they smoke in their house and at places where nobody else stands or only with like-minded people, then I see no problem, because they can disturb the well-being and the health of the non-smokers if they heedless smoke around. Agree? You know surely, that non-smokers which are accidentally inhale cigarette fume can get also illneses caused by smoking, don’t you? In this case if the smokers can not accept or realise this problem, so the legislator has to do something! It is like if you are yelling the whole night in the street where you live, at the end someone will come to stop you, because you disturb your neighbours (their well-being and surely their health). So the non-smokers are those who have to be protected. And the smokers are the “delinquents”.
And the problem is, that nowadays the women, in such cases, have less right than their husbands. So, this is not the problem, that the polygamous husbands don’t have enough rights, it is contrary. They have more rights.OK, if you still want to compare the two cases then:
The thing that smokers and polygamy had in common in that example was that both parties will object if someone tried to do anything that is against their natural tendencies. But we must put the tendencies of the non-smokers and the husbands with polygamous tendencies in the calculations as well, don’t we?
In the case of polygyny (and once again: not polygamy, because this word involves polyandry and polygynandry too) the women should have the same right like the husbands, not more. The right to refuse the wish of their husbands.
I don’t understand your first sentence (fat written). The natural tendencies of a man is polygyny? Sure? I rather choose polyamorie, Hassan.
If you talk about the natural tendencies, then what about the natural tendencies of women to monogamy (monandry or monogyny)? Doesn’t it count too? And what about the natural tendencies of non-smoking of the non-smokers?
You see, about the smoke problem I agree with you.
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Grace and Mercy:
Great that we agree on this that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist looooooong before creation.
G.M. However, the Hebrew word that is translated to “us” that is in Genesis “Let us
make man in our image” is not God refferring to Himself as plural.The issue is, we were discussing that God use the words: We, I, our, us when He speaks. I quoted some to make it clear. Translators should know which pronoun to use in translating, see below how one word should be translated differently:
The word ‘Jam’ in bahasa Indonesia is translated to the English language: Satu jam – one hour. Jam berapa – what time? Jam satu – one o’clock. Jam saya – my watch.
Holy Trinity:
Sorry Grace and Mercy: can you see the different, recognizable difference between Jesus and the Holy Spirit? We can see Jesus with a body like us. The Holy Spirit we do not see.G.M.
To explain the Trinity in the simplest form. We always exist in different personallity. At home I am “mr. abcde”, the husband to my wife and father to my daughter, that’s two personality already with two distinct roles. In my parents house I am “mr. abcde” the son and my role is different. In the office, I am “mr. abcde” the manager, another personality with a different role.
Grace, There is only one God, but there are three Persons in God. You should not mix up persons and personality.
While in the above: Mr abcde as husband we see him, and as a son we also see him. The same height, same face. etc. The RECOGNIZABLE DIFFERENT is in the alphabet : son, husband etc.
M. Khafi
About the popes it t seems that there is no issue here. You talk about the popes in the past and I am referring to the pope, Holy Father now.Of course Bibles have no brackets after their personal pronouns. I was the one doing it to explain and I can use your verse and still come up with the same thing, see the following:
“And I (first personal pronoun use for God)) will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.” Genesis 9:11
And God said, Behold, I (first personal pronoun) have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Genesis 1:29
And God said, Let us ( plural personal pronoun us for Trinity) make man in our(plural possessive pronoun for Trinity) )image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26?
M.K.
It would appear that we all need to be careful with what we read, and use logic and reasoning in our search for the truth, not just blindly follow the teachers.
Sorry, I am not blindly following anybody, not my teachers, we are among professionals educated people doing discussion plus the expert leading the group.
M.K.
I just cannot see that God would need to manifest himself as an ordinary mortal man to do his work.
God the Father with a loud voice, in public not in a dream or some caves said:”THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, LISTEN TO HIM’. Look at His Mother Maria, the conception, who is His father, the virgin birth, miracles which only the power of God can do, His inhumane suffering which other would not bear, his death (yes, He is also human, mortal for three days, as Son of man), with the power of God He rose from the death, with the power of God He ascended to heaven.
You claim He is an ordinary person like us? It is very surprising coming from you who says: use logic and reasoning in our search for the truth, not just blindly follow the teachers.
Jesus informed this to us 2000 years ago and it will continue. It really gives those who believe in Him strength, in what they believe. Such a beautiful teaching, humble, charity, give the other cheek (ha, ha people do not understand this either), the endless forgiving etc. I also know, somebody will think also about Jesus making ‘division’:”Yes, one example is, division of those who believe in Him and those who do not believe in Him. This could happen even among members from the same family.”
M.K.
Without John’s Gospel I feel that there would not even be a concept of Trinity.
Sorry, I think you are confused here: In John’s Gospel I was NOT explaining about the Holy Trinity. I was showing elaborately how Jesus says He equals God.
For the Holy Trinity the clear explanation I used was at the Baptism of Jesus baptism: The voice proclaiming in public “This is My Son”¦ “.comes from God the Father, the dove coming down representing the Holy Spirit, and Jesus (the Son of God).
It is a pleasure sharing with you all, we do learn from each other.
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Poor women, they are demonstrating for the following which are very, very good::
Beware of the destruction of generations.
(Awas KKG! KKG = Kerusakan dan Kehancuran Generasi)
Law for the destruction of Families and Households.
(UU PKDRT = UU Penghancuran Keluarga dan Rumah Tangga) We’re proud to be Muslim mothers.
(Kami Bangga Menjadi Ibu Generasi Muslim)
Legalising Abortion and Circumcision Violates Human Rights, be on guard against the efforts of many to portray men and women as the same, sexual equality law and the legalisation of abortion, because these things were intended to divorce Muslims from the law of God. Imagine if women no longer want to look after a house and we leave our children just because we are busy trying to feel equal with men. against the liberalisation of family life, and specifically against the law on domestic violence, UU Kekerasan dalam Rumah Tangga (KDRT) and the law for the protection of children, UU Perlindungan Anak. The women claimed that both laws threaten the integrity of the family. Domestic violence, they said, should be blamed on men’s lack of understanding of their correct role within the family. We’re proud to be Muslim mothers.You see they are all very, very but some sly organizer slips the following and they are perhaps ignorant. Less important to them than the above.
Polygamy is permissible, free sex is forbidden.
Making polygamy illegal is against the law of God.
Comment on “Hizbut Tahrir”.
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Muhammad Khafi:
Actually, that’s not what I meant, Khafi. I’m saying that if indeed the verse regarding the creation of Adam and Hawa was allegorical, then what are those verses talking about? Where’s the garden of paradise? Did Allah SWT and the angels descended to earth when Allah SWT ordered the angels and iblis to bow to Adam and then banished iblis when he refused? Who’s Adam’s mother and father? What did Allah meant by taking one of Adam’s ribs to create Hawa? I think Allah wouldn’t need to take anyone’s ribs if Hawa had a mother. And that would mean their parents are semi-apes (or imperfect human beings), wouldn’t it? 🙂
Tell me, what really happened in terms of the creation of mankind, according to your Quran plus evolution theory? And how does Adam relate to your story?
Anyway, your evolution theory contradicts Quran 6:98.
“It is He Who hath produced you from a single person: here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure: We detail Our signs for people who understand.” -Yusuf Ali.
“It is He Who has created you from a single person (adam), and has given you a place of residing (on the earth or in your mothers wombs) and a place of storage (in the earth (in your graves) or in your fathers loins). Indeed, We have explained in detail Our revelations (this Quran) for people who understand.” -Mohsin Khan
The verse didn’t say we were the descendants of apes 😉
I think that your conclusion stems from your hatred towards the Sunnah and Hadith. You have to admit, that conclusion is a long shot. There are other more sensible conclusions you can take from the “allegory” (if indeed it was an allegory on the first place) of Adam and Eve. But if you hated the hadith enough then sure, you will believe that.
Excuse me Khafi, but that kind of rationalizing is no different than what Abu Bakar Ba’syir had done. Instead of blaming everything on the US and the Jews like Ba’asyir, you tend to blame and relate everything that sounded bad in the Quran to the Sunnah and Hadith. 🙂
When you hate someone or something too much, the mind can play nasty tricks.
Surely you must have known that the Quran contains repetitions to remind us, and because the verses of Quran was supposed to be read in our shalats. I think that verse 71:14-15 is a shortened repetition of 22:5.
“If (God) wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as SUCCESSORS just as He brought you forth from the descendants of other peoples.” 6:133
The key word is IF God will, to show us that He had the power to do that, IF He wished it. The IF thing probably have not happened (yet). And the verse could also meant that If a bunch of people are belligerent to Allah, He could easily destroy them and replace them with another bunch of people, as their successors (moral lesson, don’t be belligerent). Pretty much like how the whites replaced the native Americans. WAllahu’alam.
And we are the also descendants of other peoples, our previous generations.
“Was there not a time in the past when the human being was nothing to even be mentioned?” 76:1
Yes, the time line was probably between the time when the earth was created (which is millions of years ago) until the creation of Adam (probably thousands of years ago). Quite a long extent of time, wasn’t it? No humans existed yet back then, hence what to mention about them? 🙂
WAllahu’alam.
“And Allah has produced you from the earth growing (gradually),” 71:17
Off course we did. No one ever popped out as an adult, right? 🙂
WAllahu’alam.
That’s generalizing. The fact is, Divine Law didn’t exclude logic and reasoning. Even the first revelation (Sura Al Alaq), begins with the word “Read!” and that Allah taught as using “pen” as a medium. It’s just that i didn’t particularly agree with the theory evolution, because it’s an unproven theory.
Some atheist scientists found some fossils, they put 2 and 2, and voila! Men evolve from apes. Evolution is a weak theory, but forced vehemently as a doctrine by those with the agendas to nullify God. As I said, didn’t they (the evolutionists) systematically discriminated other scientists who didn’t believe in the ‘doctrine’ of evolution? Khafi, we have to look at the motive and the background of the advocates before agreeing to any proposals.
Arguments like these are not uncommon to rebuff the bogus theory of evolution: “An example is the process of binding female’s feet carried on in China for apparently several centuries. The results were for women to have small and petite feet. This was a characteristic regarded as sensual and of higher class. Today, to my knowledge, this has not produced any natural difference in the proportional size and shape of Chinese female’s feet. The Theory of Evolution would have us believe differently based upon its theorems. Unless of course the evolutionary process is not sensitive enough to incorporate such events – thereby still excluding its ability to make quick, timely, and significant physical changes to a specie.
And you know what? Those arguments made sense. Show me any proof of any creatures that have ever evolved (apart from looking at their fossils)!
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Dimp: You said,
Yes, excuse me for posting too many comments. But this is a forum after all, and forums are the ideal place to post comments and arguments.
When was that? I never said that Islam is the best compared to other religions, I only advocated sharia as one of the possible solution (and the best one, possibly) for our country. And I said if our religion indeed came from the One True God, then it must be the best. We can only hope that the religion we embraced was indeed the true one.
BTW, don’t you (personally) think that your religion is the best? If you don’t, then you wouldn’t have embraced it on the first place, would you? )
We do, but not here (how can we do charity works in a forum like this one, anyway?).
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Ihaknt: You said,
Off course I would, but just because i’m hurt doesn’t mean i can go gung ho and attack the laws of my religion. Besides, had my son-in-law divorced my daughter first before he re-married, I would’ve been just as upset. In such incidence, then my daughter must raise my grandchildren all by herself. Financially, perhaps i can handle her expenses (if she didn’t have any income), but emotionally? There’s no substitute for a husband and a father.
The point is, if her husband desperately wanted to re-marry that means his love to my daughter is not as much as before, at least not as much as his love to the other woman.
Three options exists here, force him to not re-marry (against his will) which is useless (and then he’d probably channel his frustations by having an affair with another woman), re-marry in a polygamy, or divorce my daughter. None of which seemed desirable anyway! Should i add to the misery by condemning the supposed law of my religion? At least in polygamy, her rights and dignity as a wife is still intact, and her children will not be raised in a broken home. She would only have to contend with the broken heart, and the broken ego.
Polygamy is hurtful, that’s true. But divorce and affairs (selingkuh) is just as hurtful. Can you say that polygamy is more hurtful than divorce or selingkuh? It’s terrible, but we can’t avoid fate.
Anyway, we probably shouldn’t judge religious laws based on our feelings (emotions). Because emotion is the worst kind of judgment. For example, if our feeling is hurt to see our child being circumcised then we shouldn’t do it? If it hurts to say goodbye to your elderly parents who wanted to perform the hajj pilgrimage then they shouldn’t do it? If it hurts to see our loved ones die, should we blame God?
If Abraham felt that it will hurt badly to see his one and only son, Ismail, be sacrificed by his own hand then he wouldn’t do it? We knew he did.
There are sacrifices in to be made in upholding our religion and in life in general.
If God had set a certain law for us, then it must be for our best interest, and we should trust His wisdom. Are our emotions wiser than Him?
No, I would ask him what are his reasons, and i will try to reason with him to reconsider his decision and encourage him not re-marry. But if he refuses, then it’s out of my hands.
I am in support of polygamy not because i like it or because I wanted to practice it, but because my religion allowed it (not encouraged it) and i think we shouldn’t disallow what God had allowed for us.
I will support whatever her decision might be. A divorce would be better than if she continued her marriage (in polygamy) but hold a contempt against her husband in her heart.
I will also tell her that, love and marriage is Allah’s, He gave it to you and He can take it back. I will say to her, “be patient, for if Allah’s wills it, He will give you a better replacement.” )
In Islam, divorce is also an allowed (not encouraged, so kinda like polygamy) practice. A woman who put up with her husband is considered doing a good deed, but those who had enough and wanted to divorce will not be considered committing sin. Paradise or hell is for Allah SWT to judge, not us. WAllahu’alam.