Hizbut Tahrir
Dec 28th, 2006, in News, by PatungHizbut Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) champions polygamy and rails against gender equality and domestic violence laws.
Aminah Yunus Rasyid of the Medan, North Sumatra branch of HTI said on the 19th of December during a demonstration outside the mayor’s office that the ideology of gender equality was a part of the trend towards liberalisation originating in the west that was being forced on Muslim women around the world.
About a hundred people were at the rally and they carried banners saying:
- Beware of the destruction of generations.
(Awas KKG! KKG = Kerusakan dan Kehancuran Generasi) - Polygamy is permissible, free sex is forbidden.
(Poligami Halal Vs Free Sex Haram) - Law for the destruction of Families and Households
(UU PKDRT = UU Penghancuran Keluarga dan Rumah Tangga) - Making polygamy illegal is against the law of God.
(Mengharamkan Poligami = Menentang Hukum Allah) - We’re proud to be Muslim mothers.
(Kami Bangga Menjadi Ibu Generasi Muslim)
They also performed some street theatre, a play entitled “Legalisasi Aborsi, Khitan Melanggar HAM”, Legalising Abortion and Circumcision Violates Human Rights, in which they critiqued the wrong-headed modern tendency towards allowing abortion, which they say is not permissible according to Islam, while the government strove to stamp out female circumcision, a practice which is permitted within Islam.
Aminah said that Muslim women had to be on guard against the efforts of many to portray men and women as the same, against the campaign to enact a sexual equality law and the legalisation of abortion, because these things were intended to divorce Muslims from the law of God.
We can imagine what will happen if our feminine side is lost, to the point where we no longer want to look after a house and we leave our children just because we are busy trying to feel equal with men.
(Kita bisa membayangkan apa yang akan terjadi bila sisi kefeminiman kita dihilangkan dari diri kita, sehingga kita tidak mau lagi mengurusi rumah tangga dan meninggalkan anak-anak kita hanya karena sibuk dengan urusan agar kita merasa setara dengan laki-laki. republika
)
Lampung HTI Women March.
A similar theme was heard in Bandar Lampung, Lampung on the 21st of December as about 500 women and girls of Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia protested against the liberalisation of family life, and specifically against the law on domestic violence, UU Kekerasan dalam Rumah Tangga (KDRT) and the law for the protection of children, UU Perlindungan Anak. The women claimed that both laws threaten the integrity of the family. Domestic violence, they said, should be blamed on men’s lack of understanding of their correct role within the family. metrotv
Speech by HTI Makassar Women.
In Makassar, South Sulawesi, about 500 HTI women also rallied in support of similar themes on the 22nd of December. l6
146 Comments on “Hizbut Tahrir”
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Arab community says:
Khafi,
I never hear such hadiths you have quoted above? Are you sure about that? Where do you get the sources? I knew some weak hadist that Moslem must not followed as it misleading the ummah as above.
Hi Ihaknt, how are you?
I’m thinking that we could do the following:
Kick the football or soccer ball with your man as well.
Maybe 6.pm,
Or kick you in the _ _ _ _ 😉
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Ihaknt says:
Arab com, huh? what? you’re not making sense. And i am fine thanks for asking, hope you are too and happy nu year to u!
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1ndra says:
Well, the last talk, MK didnt believe hadith verses, now he’s coming with that.
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Tomaculum says:
Dear Hassan, again you interprete your thoughts into my words, hm?
“Well then, according to you, humans are wiser than God. Pardon my conclusion, but God did gave us brains, didn’t He? “
I just wrote, that:
if humans value says: according to the (earthen) law the thief should be jailed for 1 year and if “God”s regulation tell us to cut off his/her hand, then I will surely choose the earthen law as the right one.
I cannot find out a statement about wisdom, Hassan.
It is my personal choice and it doesn’t implicate anything about wisdom. My God doesn’t teach me such things like cutting off a hand of a thief. If your God teach you this and you believe and follow it, then it your choice. I don’t agree with such things and I refuse it. And if (hypothetically, Hassan) such words are written in the holly book of my religion, then I will ask my self if it isn’t possible, that those are just interpretations or/and ideas/positions of some zealots in my religion. If, Hassan, then am I (for me) wiser) than such zealots but not than my God. You can follow me?
And yes, God gave and give us brain to think and to feel. Let us use it.
“Ahh, then it’s the case of democracy for the sake of democracy, not for the sake of the people. If a democracy only allows the voice of those in support of it, and banned those who were against it, then it’s not really a democracy, is it? Biassed? Democracy for the democratic instead of for everyone?”
Hassan, oh, Hassan, democracy is for the sake of the people. And we talk here not about prohibitions to talk, but about the contents (again: contents) of the demonstration. And yes, in the democracy you will find laws prohibiting demonstrations with the aim a.e. to kill others. And every demonstration, for example in Germany or in Franch, has to be allowed by the police, because in the democracy you don’t live alone. Because if the aim were extremely against the democracy then you cannot guarantee that it will come to riots.
Democracy means also – besides freedom – regulations and duties.My words:
“and it is a stupid arrogance to postmark other human as sinner or unbeliever”
Your words:
“Correction, i did not call anyone as a sinner, nor called anyone as unbeliever, as you implied. I was merely reminding others not to fall into arrogance. As that was the reason of the downfall of a lot of men, and was also the reason of the devil’s banishment. Was it not true in your religion also? Tomaculum, using your own words, please read my comments carefully and don’t interpret your thoughts in my words, OK?”
Sorry, if you feel affected by my words. I meant that commonly to all of them, who always postmark believers or followers of other faiths as sinner/unbeliever.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Ihaknt,
There are many more than these, and as you say, it is hard to believe that anybody could think that these verses are of any value, how about these:
In addition to all other deficiencies, the woman has no fewer than ten ‘awrat, (awrat definition from classical Arabic dictionary: external genitals) shameful orifices including, or resembling, her external genitals: “Ali reported to the Prophet, saying: ‘Women have ten ‘awrat. When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten” (Kanz-el-‘Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858). Furthermore, according to a “faultless” hadith, not only does the woman have ten ‘awrat, she is seen as one herself: “The woman is ‘awrat. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her” (Ihy’a ‘Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Beirut, Vol II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 65).
Arab community,
I am afraid that many of these Hadith are Sahih, the verse references are included with many if you want to check them. We complain when the Islamophobes attack Islam but we have given them the fuel!
How about this one:
Sahih Al-BukhariVolume 4, Book 55, Number 616:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, ‘He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.’ Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, ‘O stone! Give me my garment!’ Till he reached a group of Bani Israel who saw him naked then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. THIS IS WAS WHAT ALLAH REFERS TO IN HIS SAYING:– “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69)
1ndra,
Do I sound like somebody who believes nonsense like this?
If you want to show people that they have ‘uang palsu’ in their hand it is better to show them some examples, even if it smells like ‘uang pasar’.
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Okey, if they’re shahih, from Rasulullah, why bother? If its shahih and from Rasulullah then its agreed by Allah.
What makes you feel better than him and know everything better than him?If Allah doenst like these verses, they’ll never exist as Allah always take care what every Rasulullah did. Even the small thing like when he throws his sight away from a blind man.
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And since when has Hadith been the word of Allah?
Allah says in Al Quran ” Now that I have given them this book, complete and fully detailed, in which stories will they believe”
If Allah doenst like these verses, they’ll never exist as Allah always take care what every Rasulullah did
Wrong again, Allah says:
“Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.” 6:112
Allah has clearly allowed false teachings, to lead those astray who do not read His Book.
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Hassan says:
Tomaculum: You said,
“I cannot find a statement about wisdom, Hassan.”
Simple, just read between the lines. That is why I said “Pardon my conclusion”, hence i conclude, and read between the dotted line. When you chose man made laws rather than God given laws, you were implying that the man made laws are better than God’s laws (for you, at least).
Tell me Tomaculum, are some man made (earthen) laws better than certain laws that (supposedly) came from God? Then answer this, to you, who’s the better law maker? Humans or God? After you answered those questions, you can fill in the blanks yourself. 🙂 You are free to disagree with my conclusion, though.
“And if (hypothetically, Hassan) such words are written in the holly book of my religion, then I will ask my self if it isn’t possible, that those are just interpretations or/and ideas/positions of some zealots in my religion.”
You gave the example of the cutting of the hand for thief law, and that Tomaculum, is not just the interpretations of some zealots in my religion. Most Muslim scholars agreed on that. Only a small minority (Mohammed Khafi included) rejected the cutting of the hand law.
It’s probably like the trinity doctrine, which the majority of Christians agreed on, but a small percentage (the unitarians) rejected vehemently. Now tom, if you rejected the trinity doctrine because you thought that it didn’t make sense, what will happen next? Could you accept some doctrines in your religion but reject the others?
“Because if the aim were extremely against the democracy.”
Then how about if some Muslims demonstrated on the upholding of sharia in Indonesia? Should that be allowed (considering some of the contents of sharia are ‘against’ western style democracy)? No? I thought so. So there’s really no freedom of speech/expression for those with different political alignment in democracy then?
“then you cannot guarantee that it will come to riots.”
Yes tom, only demonstrations held by ‘democratic’ people will always be peaceful, demonstrations by ‘undemocratic’ people will always have the possibility of riots. Excellent generalization. I guess there are no riots back in 1960’s anti war demonstrations in the US of A.
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Hassan,
“Tell me Tomaculum, are some man made (earthen) laws better than certain laws that (supposedly) came from God? Then answer this, to you, who’s the better law maker? Humans or God? After you answered those questions, you can fill in the blanks yourself”
I still cannot find any statement about wisdom in my comments and I’ve read it also betwen the lines.
And I didn’t say, that man made law is better or worse than God’s law, I just wrote for me personaly I would chose the law which only punish the thief with 1 year jail. I don’t know which one is the better law maker, Hassan, and for me this is not the question. Some of the God made laws are not suitable with my personal conscience. I don’t disagree with your conclusion, it is simply not my conclusion. If you use your conclusion to better your and our life, why not?
“You gave the example of the cutting of the hand for thief law, and that Tomaculum, is not just the interpretations of some zealots in my religion. Most Muslim scholars agreed on that. Only a small minority (Mohammed Khafi included) rejected the cutting of the hand law.”
So what? If you conclude, that cutting hand of a thief is Gods law, because most of the scholars in your religion are agree with it, then it is your believe, not mine. Your argument doesn’t yet assure me, that this is a God made law.
You speak about the trinity “doctrine”, why so deprecative? Maybe it is all also Al Qur’an or haddis “doctrine”?
I have no problem to reject any regulation of my religion, if I think it is inhuman and if it is against my conscience. Anyway I just try to be a good human being (who is not free from failures). In one thing I’m sure: I try not to harm other.
Hassan,
If some Moslems in Indonesia demonstrate for the implementation of Sharia in Indonesia, I would say, lets forbid it. If Indonesia really wants the democracy, because, as you wrote, some of the Sharia contents are against the democracy. Not only against the western democracy. What is western democracy? And which one is eastern democracy? Maybe you can help me to understand the differents?“Yes tom, only demonstrations held by ‘democratic’ people will always be peaceful, demonstrations by ‘undemocratic’ people will always have the possibility of riots. Excellent generalization. I guess there are no riots back in 1960’s anti war demonstrations in the US of A.”
Generalisation is if I wrote that every demonstration of non-democratic groups will allways have a riot as aftereffect. Excellent misunderstanding, Hassan?
But it is fact, that demonstrations of non-democratic groups in Europe (like the Neo-Nazis) cause anti-demonstrations. And it is fact, that such demonstrations and counter-demonstrations frequently get out of hand and trend to such riots.
So, what kind of excellent generalisation I’ve wrote, Hassan?
Demonstrations from groups, which are against the democracy, are allowed in Europe (a.e. in Germany). But they have to be declared by the police, so they can prevent the growth of any riot.
Under some circumstances some demonstrations are prohibited, for example demonstartions of the Neo-Nazi groups in former concentration camps.
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Tomaculum: And the HTI women rally is equal to those Neo-Nazi groups’ demonstrations in concentration camps? 🙂
“If some Moslems in Indonesia demonstrate for the implementation of Sharia in Indonesia, I would say, lets forbid it.”
Well then that settles it, based on your statements, there’s really no freedom of speech/expression for those with different political alignment in your version of democracy. Not any different than Soeharto’s era, is it? Or Lee Kuan Yew-ish kind of ‘democracy’.
“I still cannot find any statement about wisdom in my comments and I’ve read it also betwen the lines. And I didn’t say, that man made law is better or worse than Gods law, I just wrote for me personaly I would chose the law which only punish the thief with 1 year jail.”
Surely you chose the human laws instead of the (supposedly) God’s laws (to Muslims at least) because your conscience told you the former is better for us (or you) than the later. Hence, my conclusion that for you, human laws are better than God’s. That means humans are wiser than God.
Anyway, it really doesn’t matter. It’s a quite trivial matter really. Let’s just say, i argued about it for the sake of argument. No more, no less.
-“You speak about the trinity “doctrin”, why so deprecative? Maybe it is all also Al Qur’an or haddis “doctrin”?”
I’m not sure I understand this. Can you elaborate on this?
“Generalisation is if I wrote that every demonstration of non-democratic groups will allways have a riot as aftereffect.”
And generalization is also when we say each and every non-democratic movements across the globe have the same characteristics, which is ‘their demonstrations have the tendency (frequently, but not always) to cause riots’. Maybe the trend is like that in Europe. But across the whole world? That needed more research.
-“If you conclude, that cutting hand of a thief is Gods law, because most of the scholars in your religion are agree with it, then it is your believe, not mine.”
Tomaculum, I’m not trying to push my believe here. I was just trying (a little to hard, maybe) to explain the reason of why i think the way i think. In my religion, we must accept all of God’s laws, and not being picky about it. The topic came out as you mentioned the ‘cutting of the hand for thief’ law. I’m sorry if this argument widened into something undesirable.
Maybe it’s a step towards mutual understanding.
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Mohammed Khafi:
“Allah has clearly allowed false teachings, to lead those astray who do not read His Book.”
Are you 100% sure that the hadith and sunnah are one of those “false teachings”?
And why did Allah SWT bothered sending all those prophets and given all of those scriptures to us if in the end all of His religion (judaism, Christianity, and Islam) will be corrupted and most of His worshipers will be lead astray? He knew this will happen. If he can’t stop it, He’s weak. If he won’t stop it, He’s mean. As simple as that!
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Hassan:
“Tomaculum: And the HTI women rally is equal to those Neo-Nazi groups’ demonstrations in concentration camps?”
Actually I shouldn’t answer this question, you know why, Hassan.
I don’t speak in this case about forbidding the demonstration of the HTI women, but for me are their claims absurd. If you know history of the Nacionalsocialism in Germany and their life sight, then you will know that their claims are frightening and it is an affront against the victims of the national socialism (which were not only Jews). And that should be forbidden and it is forbidden.
“Well then that settles it, based on your statements, there’s really no freedom of speech/expression for those with different political alignment in your version of democracy. Not any different than Soeharto’s era, is it? Or Lee Kuan Yew-ish kind of ‘democracy’.”
If your understanding about democracy just so far, then please read again about it. Which one is your version about democracy? Well, well, Hassan, democracy is something difficult to understand and it include not only the freedom for speaking, but also regulations/laws and duties.
Surely you chose the human laws instead of the (supposedly) God’s laws (to Muslims at least) because your conscience told you the former is better for us (or you) than the later. Hence, my conclusion that for you, human laws are better than God’s. That means humans are wiser than God.
Anyway, it really doesn’t matter. It’s a quite trivial matter really. Let’s just say, i argued about it for the sake of argument. No more, no less.
My conclusion is: you don’t really understand what I mean.
About the trinity doctrine: it is a pity, that one religion doesn’t respect the other. If you say that the trinity concept is just a doctrine (doctrine from whom? The Christian say it is Gods manifestation), then – for me – it is a direct affront against the Christian faith. And don’t wonder, if they then say: Muhammed is not a prophet, the believe, that he is a prophet, is just a doctrine. What would you say?
Surely you chose the human laws instead of the (supposedly) God’s laws (to Muslims at least) because your conscience told you the former is better for us (or you) than the later. Hence, my conclusion that for you, human laws are better than God’s. That means humans are wiser than God.
Its a repetition of my thoughts: For me I choose the human law (in this comparison betwen 1 year jail or cutting hand for the thief) just because this law (cutting hand) is not suitable with my conscience. I don’t know neither it is good or bad for me, I would bear the consequences. It is my point of view, not more and not less. If your conclusion of my words is that I declare the human is wiser than God, what can I say again.
Generalization:
If you do a non-democratic demonstration in a democracy society, then it will cause resistances and frequently it will get out of hand and become riots.If you do a democratic demonstration in a non-democratic country (if you can), resistances will arise. And it can develop to a riot too.
Generalization?
I didn’t mention, that all and every non-democratic demonstrations have the same charasteristic (except one: they are against the democracy), I said: they have the tendency to become riots and I have wrote the reason.
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Hassan said:
Are you 100% sure that the hadith and sunnah are one of those “false teachings”?
Allah has revealed the most beautiful hadith in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, repeating, the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah’s praises. Such is the guidance of Allah. He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide 39:23
And this verse :
Such are the Ayat of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what other hadith will they believe after Allah and His Ayat ?45:6
So the Quran is the best hadith:
Allah has revealed the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, repeating: the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah’s praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide. 39:23
It is the law of Allah which hath taken course aforetime. Thou wilt not find for the law of Allah aught of power to change. 48:23
He has also protected His Book:
Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, 15:10
You only need to read some of the disgusting things which the Sunnah and Hadith accuse The Prophet of doing to see that they are false, you only need to see the way that women are demeaned and subdjugated to see that they are false, you only need to see the blatant contradictions to Al Quran to see that they are false.
Yes I am 100% sure.
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Mohammed Khafi: Are you sure that the word ‘hadith’ on those verses actually mean the sunnah and hadith?
As I opened the Quran:
Yusuf Ali 45:6 “Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?”
M. H. Shakir 45:6 “These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?”
M. Pickthalll 45:6 “These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?”
As i recalled, you don’t have a degree in tafsir, so where does the new and different interpretation came from?
A quick research of Sura 39:23 revealed the translation was “Message” (Yusuf Ali), “announcement” (Shakir), and “statements” (Pickthall), instead of “hadith” as you mentioned.
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Mohammed Khafi: “”¦By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. THIS IS WAS WHAT ALLAH REFERS TO IN HIS SAYING:- “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69)”
“Do I sound like somebody who believes nonsense like this?”
Then what kind of rational mind would believe the splitting of the red sea by tapping a walking stick to the ground? or that same stick can be transformed into a huge snake? or when that same walking stick struck a stone, 12 watersprings burst for each tribes? or even a trip from mecca to jerusalem in one night (in the seventh century)?
We are talking about the times of revelation here, brother khafi. A little faith is needed here and there.
A case of selective faith, perhaps?
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Hassan,
The Arabic word Hadith literally means “communication, story, conversation; Religious or secular, historical or recent.” Whenever used as an adjective, it means “new;” it occurs 23 times in the Qur’an in the sense of story or communication.
As to the Miraculous Walking Stick of Nabi Musa:
These verses were given to assist The Prophet with the disbelievers of Makkah, The background of the Surah is that the disbelievers of Makkah were persistently refusing, on one pretext or the other, to accept the message of Islam given by the Holy Prophet. Sometimes they would say that he did not show them any sign to convince them of his Prophethood; sometimes they would brand him as a poet or a sorcerer and mock his message; and sometimes they would ridicule his Mission, saying that his followers were either a few foolish youth, or the poor people and slaves — whereas, they argued, if his Mission had really some value for the people, the nobles and the elders would have accepted it first. Thus, while on the one hand, the Holy Prophet was becoming wearied by his efforts to show them rationally the errors of their creeds and prove the truth of the Doctrines of Tauhid and the Hereafter, the disbelievers, on the other, were never tired of adopting one kind of obduracy after the other. This state of affairs was causing great anguish and grief to the Holy Prophet.
Such were the conditions when this Surah was revealed. It begins with words of consolation to the Holy Prophet, implying, “Why do you fret for their sake?If these people have not believed in you, it is not because they have not seen any Sign, but because they are obdurate. They will not listen to reason they want to see a Sign which makes them bow their heads in humility. When this Sign is shown in due course of time, they will themselves realize that what was being presented to them was the Truth.”
“O disbelievers, if at all you want to see the Signs, why should you insist on seeing those horrible Signs that visited the doomed communities of the past?Why don’t you see the Qur’an which is being presented in your own language?Why don’t you see Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and mercy) and his Companions?Can the revelations of the Qur’an be the work of a satan or a jinn?Does the recipient of the Qur’an appear to be a sorcerer?Are Muhammad and his Companions no different from a poet and his admirers?Why don’t you give up disbelief and search your hearts for their judgment?When in the heart of your hearts you yourselves believe that the Revelations of the Qur’an have nothing in common with sorcery and poetry, then you should know that you are being cruel and unjust, and will certainly meet the doom meant for the cruel and unjust.”
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Mohammed Khafi: So, i guess that means you must genuinely think that the word “Hadith” on those verses referred to the sunnah. It seemed Mr Ali, Shakir, Pickthall, and Khan as some of the most credible interpreters of the Quran all missed the point entirely, because none of them referred the word “Hadith” as the sunnah.
“These verses were given to assist The Prophet with the disbelievers of Makkah.”
Are you saying that the verses was aimed to fulfill the curiosity of the pagan Arabs, so that they would listen to the words of the Prophet (pbuh)? Or did i miss the point somewhere?
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Hassan,
So, i guess that means you must genuinely think that the word “Hadith” on those verses referred to the sunnah. It seemed Mr Ali, Shakir, Pickthall, and Khan as some of the most credible interpreters of the Quran all missed the point entirely, because none of them referred the word “Hadith” as the sunnah.
You seem to be missing the point entirely, it doesn’t matter what word you use, hadith, expositions, announcements, communications, portents, or sunnah.
Allah is questioning what you will believe in after he has given you His Book Al Quran, which He tells us is, complete perfect and fully detailed. You obviously choose to believe in Hadith and Sunnah, whilst for me Al Quran is sufficient.
Are you saying that the verses was aimed to fulfill the curiosity of the pagan Arabs, so that they would listen to the words of the Prophet (pbuh)? Or did i miss the point somewhere?
That is exactly what I am saying. The timing of the verse is from the middle Makkan period, when The Prophet was tried sorely by the Pagans in Makka:
The verse starts:
Those are the Signs of the Clear Book. Perhaps you will destroy yourself with grief because they will not become believers. If We wished We could send down a Sign to them from heaven, before which their heads would be bowed low in subjection. 26:2-4
Allah goes on to say “If We wished We could send down a Sign to them from heaven, before which their heads would be bowed low in subjection.” but that is not what Al Quran is all about is it?
If you need magic and miracles like the Children of Israel, the Christians, or the Pagan Arabs of Makka you are looking in the wrong book.
The miracles of Al Quran are the Book itself and it’s contents.
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Mohammed Khafi: The question is, did you or did you not believe in those miracles? 🙂
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Tomaculum:
“Which one is your version about democracy? Well, well, Hassan, democracy is something difficult to understand and it include not only the freedom for speaking, but also regulations/laws and duties.”
I realized about the responsibilities in democracy, but i didn’t realize that democracy restricts the political freedom of people with different political alignments. That is what malaysia and Singapore had been doing, and most western experts considered what happened in those countries as ‘undemocratic’.
“Actually I shouldn’t answer this question, you know why, Hassan”
If I can take the liberty of answering this question, then my answer is the two are completely different. We all knew what the Nazis had done in the past and it was simply gruesome. On the other hand what the HTI women had done resembled the Anwar Ibrahim case in Malaysia, the government and him had different political alignment and different perception of what is best for the country.
“Anyway, it really doesn’t matter. It’s a quite trivial matter really. Let’s just say, i argued about it for the sake of argument. No more, no less.”
And you said,
“My conclusion is: you don’t really understand what I mean.”
Perhaps I had come into the conclusion that our debate will never come to a mutual understanding, because we clearly used two different standards (our two religions). And I also realized that whatever conclusion we might come to is rather trivial in manner, it’s not important. I also realized that i continued on the argument only to fulfill my curiosity of as how you perceive things. And now, i have the answers to those curiosities. 🙂
“About the trinity doctrin: it is a pitty, that one religion doesn’t respect the other. If you say that the trinity concept is just a doctrin (doctrin from whom? The Christian say it is Gods manifestation), then – for me – it is a direct affront against the Christian faith.”
I offer my sincere apologies. I really have no intentions to hurt your feelings when i used the term “trinity doctrine”. I didn’t realize that those words are offensive to you. It’s just that I had used that term with my Christian friends whenever I had a chat regarding religion with them, and I also used that term several times here in Indonesia matters when i argued with some people (Molisan Tono is one of them). But this is the first time that someone complained about the use of that particular term.
Again, if the word doctrine sounds like something man made and doesn’t befit the respect we should give to other religions, then forgive me.
Perhaps this link from wikipedia can give us more insights regarding this matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_Trinity -
Hassan,
I believe in Allah’s Laws of Physics, not Magic! Please don’t forget that Allah says:
“He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.” 3:7
There have recently been some good scientific theories explaining many of the mystical calamities visited on the Pharaoh and the people of Egypt, and even the great flood, so it appears that as our knowledge increases so hopefully does our understanding!
The stories from Taurat were given to a primitive, superstitious people, who believed in magic, their use in Al Quran was again for a primitive, superstitious group, the Makkan pagans. Surely you are a man “firmly rooted in knowledge” are you not?
😉 -
Mohammed Khafi: The problem is Khafi, I don’t think that Allah SWT would lie in the Quran just to ‘shock and awe’ some stupid Arab pagans. Do you think that Allah SWT would do that? I don’t. And the Quran’s tone in describing those miracles doesn’t sound allegorical to me. So yes, i do believe in those miracles.
I believe those miracles did happen, and if Allah SWT is willing, He could do it all again. It’s just that He chooses not to send those kind of Signs (miracles) anymore. That’s why He said on the verse, “If We wished We could send down a Sign to them from heaven, before which their heads would be bowed low in subjection.”
He could (as His power is limitless), but He wouldn’t, not anymore.
Allah SWT sent those Signs in the form miracles before because humans are still stupid and ignorant in those early days. So direct warnings (interventions) are needed. But as human civilization and knowledge evolves, those kind of Signs are no longer needed. As a substitute, Allah SWT the Wise had sent us His Book of Signs, Al Quran. That is the only miracle modern men will ever need. But that doesn’t mean miracles never happened.
He wanted to use reasoning as the new tool to make our heads bow in subjection, instead of using good ol’ fashioned miracles.
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Hassan,
I presume in that case, as you take everything in Al Quran so literally you also believe that the story of Adam and Eve is also fact rather than an illustration ?
I prefer to believe in evolution, as it meets Allah’s Scientific Laws as we presently understand them and the evidence of fossil records etc.
If you need the same sort of revelation as Allah gave to the people of the past that is your choice. I prefer logic over myth and magic, I am not denying that Allah has the power to do those things, I just prefer to believe that his power is manifest in science, rather than in improbability.
Plagues and Parting of the Red Sea Theory
Ten Plagues of Egypt TheoryPeace Brother
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Mohammed Khafi: “I presume in that case, as you take everything in Al Quran so literally.”
Off course not. Because some of the verses in the Quran are decisive and some others are allegorical. 🙂 I simply don’t think that the verses about these Signs (miracles) are one of those allegorical in nature.
“so you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is also fact rather than an illustration? I prefer to believe in evolution, as it meets Allah’s Scientific Laws”
Hehe, then you surely believe we are the descendants of apes. No thanks, too ‘sublime’ for me.
The theory of evolution is introduced by a 19 century scientist who had also doubted several aspects of his own theory, like the ‘missing link’ (which is nowhere to be found even now). It is used as the prime argument for materialists, people who refuses to acknowledge the existence of God, and argues that the universe was created by a series of random coincidences. Should we jump into the bandwagon?
Anyway, what could possibly be illustrative in the stories of Adam and Eve in the Quran Khafi? I’m intrigued. Tell me, what exactly happened in the Adam and Eve scenario according to your understanding of those Quranic revelations?
“I prefer logic over myth and magic”
Then how can your logic explain about life after death? About the day of reckoning? How can your body be restored to full health after it had decayed and withered? Can logic explain about the spirit (ruh)? What about angels? Those guys aren’t scientific right? And lastly, is the concept of heaven and paradise rational?
Maybe the Quranic verses regarding those matters are also allegorical, Khafi.
It’s not about logic vs myth and magic. It’s about the limitedness of human reasoning, and the limitedness of human in general. “Bisakah manusia dan akalnya yang terbatas memahami Allah SWT yang Maha Tak Terbatas dalam segalanya”?
I think you relied too much on logic. Our senses and our logic is designed by Allah to be full of limitations. But Allah SWT has no limits in His Greatness and Existence.
Our logic will never be able to comprehend “Dzat Allah” and His grand design in this universe.Even the angels and all of their intelligence and logic didn’t understand why Allah SWT created Adam, but He knows what they knew not. And Iblis’ logic prevented him from bowing to Adam when Allah SWT ordered him to. Was he not made from fire, while Adam was merely a creature made of dirt/clay?
There are places where logic can not go. Those places requires faith.
Waalaikumsalaam.
_______________________
Here’s an article from internet i found to be quite interesting:
Evolution is a personal perspective originally developed by an individual who turned into an anti-Christian. His passion held Christianity, and religion generally, in deep contempt. This can be a very strong motive (extreme emotion) for his views.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=75193
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Hassan,
“I realized about the responsibilities in democracy, but i didn’t realize that democracy restricts the political freedom of people with different political alignments.”
No, Hassan, in a democracy you won’t find a restriction of poltical freedom. But, again, there are also laws and regulations to facilitate a peacefull cohabitation. And there are also conventions.
“If i can take the liberty of answering this question, then my answer is the two are completely different. We all knew what the Nazis had done in the past and it was simply gruesome. On the other hand what the HTI women had done resembled the Anwar Ibrahim case in Malaysia, the government and him had different political alignment and different perception of what is best for the country.”
So, I wouldn’t compare the two aims, that is what I mean.
And what is the best for our country?
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Hassan,
Hehe, then you surely believe we are the descendants of apes. No thanks, too ‘sublime’ for me.
How about these verses?:
“What is the matter with you, that ye place not your hope for kindness and long-suffering in Allah,- Seeing that it is He that has created you in diverse stages?” 71:14-15
These diverse stages suggest to me some sort of evolution. Modern Man has been scientifically proven to have evolved through a number of diverse stages as apparently related by Allah.
like the ‘missing link’ (which is nowhere to be found even now)
With regard to the missing link please look at the latest evidence Fossil Find Is Missing Link in Human Evolution, Scientists Say
Then how can your logic explain about life after death? About the day of reckoning? How can your body be restored to full health after it had decayed and withered? Can logic explain about the spirit (ruh)? What about angels?
My logic cannot explain those things, I have no problems accepting that fact, but when scientific evidence from Allah’s Law of Science, gives me an opportunity to explain or understand something which was previously a mystery to me, why should I reject it?
My faith is that as Allah allows us as human beings to become more knowledgeable we can discover and understand more of the wonders he has already given us in His Book._____________________
Tomaculum you said:
We all knew what the Nazis had done in the past and it was simply gruesome. On the other hand what the HTI women had done resembled the Anwar Ibrahim case in Malaysia,
It is not what they are doing now, it is what they are campaigning for which worries me:
According to Hizb ut-Tahrir, the Islamic state is one in which Islamic law – Sharia – is applied to all walks of life, and there is no compromise with other forms of legislation.
No democracy, no alternatives to their own interpretations of religious law, no reasoning or argument, and all this despite the fact that Al Quran clearly staes that there is no compulsion in religion!
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M. Khafi,
those were not my words, but Hassans. read again. -
My apologies Tomaculum, already way past my bedtime!
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Mohammed Khafi: You didn’t answer my question about a certain matter,
“Anyway, what could possibly be illustrative in the stories of Adam and Eve in the Quran Khafi? I’m intrigued. Tell me, what exactly happened in the Adam and Eve scenario according to your understanding of those Quranic revelations?”
“What is the matter with you, that ye place not your hope for kindness and long-suffering in Allah,- Seeing that it is He that has created you in diverse stages?”
71:14-15
Khafi, the most common contemporary interpretation of that particular verse is that the verse is describing about the diverse life strages of a human’s life, from being a baby, a toddler, a teenager, an adult, and finally an elderly, before we eventually return to our original state: dirt. To remind us of death, and to explain about the life cycle we will endure. For example, we started life as an independent baby, and will end as an independent elderly. “What is the matter with you” did you not realise that you will die someday and will return to the way you were created in the first place? Perhaps that is the message.
Or it can also be interpreted as the stages of our embryonic phase of life, it’s diverse stages of development.
Mohsin Khan, Sura 71:
13 “What is the matter with you, (that you fear not Allah (His punishment), and) you hope not for reward (from Allah or you believe not in His Oneness).”
14 “While He has created you in (different) stages (i.e. first Nutfah, then Alaqah and then Mudghah, see (VV.23:13,14) the Quran).”You know what? I think you’re reaching, and you reached too far with your reasoning. I had previously reminded you about the dangers of interpreting the Quran without proper knowledge in ‘tafsir’, and now my worries is clearly proven.
“but when scientific evidence from Allah’s Law of Science, gives me an opportunity to explain or understand something which was previously a mystery to me, why should I reject it?”
Yes, but ‘scientific evidence’ can be interpreted in various ways, and can be tampered with by those who had different agendas. And ‘scientific evidence’ and theories is not protected by Allah SWT, so mistakes (and manipulation) can happen. Especially if those evidence and theories were developed by the people who refuses to acknowledge the existence of God, and would like the rest of humanity to think the same way. Didn’t they (the evolutionists) systematically discriminated other scientists who didn’t believe in the ‘doctrine’ of evolution?
Let’s just say my scepticism towards the evolution myth is the same as yours towards the sunnah and hadith, and my distrust to those people are the same as yours towards traditional Muslim clerics. At least the clerics are God-fearing people and they’re also my brothers, who prayed 5 times-a-day to Allah so He would guide them to the straight path. And the evolutionists? You should check the credibility of the people you wished to rely on before jumping into the bandwagon, Khafi.
“My logic cannot explain those things, I have no problems accepting that fact,”
Better think again, Bother Khafi. Perhaps the verses about those matters (life after death, the spirit, angels, and paradise) are allegorical too. 🙂 We shouldn’t use double standards, should we?
“but when scientific evidence from Allah’s Law of Science, gives me an opportunity to explain or understand something which was previously a mystery to me, why should I reject it?”
But scientific theories didn’t come from Allah SWT. And if certain things weren’t explained clearly (without room for doubt) in the Quran, but we use them (then adds other unreliable sources) as a basis of our belief, then it’s truth is not reliable. Hence, the whole thing could’ve been a mistake.
Peace.
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Dimp says:
Yep,
Rather that wasting your time and energy arguing something that will not make any difference how about actually doing something for the greater good.
All this talks, but how about doing something for the community, if you always argues that your religion is the best then show it, do some charity work, help the poor.
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Mmmm, welcome back Patung.
Hassan
i have a question for you. If your daughter’s husband tells her that he wants to take another wife, and your daughter is very hurt and upset, but he went ahead anyway, would you feel your daughter’s pain? Or would you pat your son in law on the back? And if later on your daughter seeked for a divorce, would you support her decision or would you tell her she would go to hell for not putting up with the situation even if she’s not happy?
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Hassan You said:
“Anyway, what could possibly be illustrative in the stories of Adam and Eve in the Quran Khafi? I’m intrigued. Tell me, what exactly happened in the Adam and Eve scenario according to your understanding of those Quranic revelations?”
Thats easy Hassan, Allah is illustrating that even though He gave Adam and Halwa everything that they possibly needed, They were still lead astray by Iblis because they wanted more.
Just as Allah has again given us everything that we need in Al Quran and yet some people are still being led astray by that same Iblis, because Al Quran is not enough for them!
71:14-15
Khafi, the most common contemporary interpretation of that particular verse is that the verse is describing about the diverse life strages of a human’s life….
If you want the various stages of life Hassan, just look at this verse, much more detailed isn’t it?
“O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.” 22:5
There are many more verses detailing scientific knowledge which was unknown at the time of revelation, and which have only become clear with the advancement of science.
If you want to see the verses detailing scientifically Nutfah, Alaqah and Mudghah The Quran on Human Embryonic Development.
Other verses that give me faith in my understanding:
“If (God) wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as SUCCESSORS just as He brought you forth from the descendants of other peoples.”6:133“Was there not a time in the past when the human being was nothing to even be mentioned?” 76:1
“And Allah has made you grow out of the earth as a growth:” 71:17
“Indeed, We created them and strenghtened them; and when We willed, replace them completely with peoples like them/of the same kind.” 76:28
You seem to believe that Divine Law excludes Logic and Reasoning, the Atheist Scientists seem to think that The Laws of Physics exclude the Divine, but to me they are one and the same thing.
Peace Brother
Dimp said:
if you always argues that your religion is the best then show it, do some charity work, help the poor.
What makes you think we don’t?
Comment on “Hizbut Tahrir”.
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Iew these verses f**king disgust me!!!! They were definitely written by men driven by lust for their own benefit, needs, and desires!
MK, the sad thing is that many still believe these verses to be right. Why cant people understand that it requires way more to go to heaven than just pleasing a husband! If i please my husband and kill Hassan, does it mean i will go to heaven? I dont think so!!!!
Women have rights to say no. We are human too, in my case, who can think for myself, have my own opinion, and if you mess with me, i will fight back and kick you guys in the nuts!