Expats
Oct 3rd, 2006, in Society, by PatungOn the “quality”, or possible lack thereof, of expatriates in Indonesia.
Visitor Parvita, on the dating Indonesian girls article, makes these, somewhat stinging, remarks about expatriates in Indonesia.
I’ve gone out both with Indonesian and expat men (western and eastern) and my lesson to learn is: expats are just for fun and not to be taken seriously.
Most of them that comes over here, especially the westerners, are those who cannot “compete” in their country. And when they come over here, they make better living because our country pays expats waaaaaay better than nationals. Then they became like kings, thinking that they are superiors, and some girls fall for them. For instance, would you think a very successful and smart lawyer, or businessmen in England would move to a country like Indonesia? And the houses they live in in Kemang, when they go back to their countries, say, Italy, they will just live in a one bedroom apartment (or a studio) with no driver and a really small car, commuting to the city? The place I live and the car I drive currently is much much better than what they have.
I deal with lots of western expats, some of them are my friends. They told me that when they are here, they are handsome. In their countries, they are invisible. There you go, a confession from an Australian.
Some expats are even so obnoxious, having to live in the states for long, I know they are the loser kind but when they are here, they are surrounded by women and think that they are God’s gift to women.
When a smart, rich, independent Indonesian women dates an expat here, that expat must be a really damn good one! [bold added]
Certainly some home truths there, but the “Most of them…” part may not stand up to analysis.
520 Comments on “Expats”
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Fred Floggle says:
Achmed,
Just another hint from someone who isn’t bright, uneducated etc etc
When you write:
as your my social junior,
Its actually As YOU ARE
(that’s three things you learned tonight, count them)
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taxpayer says:
Reuters (Malaysia): October 25th, 2007 2:29am
Malaysia has notified the press that they plan to return the 53+ islands they stole from Indonesia and the Indonesian people. They have admitted, without legal representation, that the convenience of stealing the islands was provided when Indonesia balked at Malaysia adopting “Terang Bulan” as their national song. Malaysia firmly apologized for their manipulative behavior and have offer the Petronas Towers and rights to Nasi Goreng as a token of their dubious actions.
*****FOX NEWS ALERT*******FOX NEWS ALERT******FOX NEWS ALERT*******
Union representatives for Superman, Spiderman, The Fantastic Four, and numerous other crime-stopping super heroes have announced that due to contractual obligations being violated by the newly segregated world, Marvel and DC Comics are suing the world for punitive damages of $25 trillion dollars. Union officials for the super heroes stated that without crime to fight their superheroes were now unemployed and due to their special powers had to legal claim to a quiet retirement in any sector of any country. Superman went on to say that he would have stayed dead the first time if he had known that the world’s people were going to “Jeoparadize his existence with moral kryptonite”.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Fred,
Thanks for the proof-reading. As usual, you’re focusing on trivial details while the power of Achmad’s prose and logic pulverises your childish arguments into dust.
Simple fact is pal, if you don’t pay attention to the local media, (newspapers, magazines, televisions, Blogs), you just don’t know what’s going on. It’s a foolish state for a businessman to be in.
You, my friend, don’t know what’s going on. That’s what happens when your world consists of grubby Blok M skanks and wannabe colonial overlords who gather at JakChat and Jalan Jaksa.
I, friend, am an Indonesian poet, pencak silat teacher, cabaret singer and ukele player. I was born in Purbalingga, close to my cousin Sumanto, but we have different eating habits.
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Fred,
Spell my name right.
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sorry mate, I did get it wrong.
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That’s ok. It’s transliterated from Arabic anyway.
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Achmad, I really don’t have the time to spend on this, after all unlike you I am not an English teacher ripping off poor bloody Indonesians when you can barely string 5 words together to make a sentence.
If you bother to read my posts I have ably demonstrated my argument with comments from advocacy groups, news reports on the arrest of English Teachers, comments from actual English teachers.
You on the other hand have jumped up and down shouting “it isn’t true”, but have offered not one pixel of evidence to support your case. When it became obvious that you were going to lose you started insulting me. You obviously didn’t sit on your University debating team!
You are no more poet than I am Pope. You are just another bloody English teacher, and one the world in general and Indonesia in particular could do well without. The real worry is you don’t have the guts to admit to it.
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Fred,
I’m not sure our arguments have met. Let’s try to fix it, just on a parting note. You have a business to run. I have poems to write.
Your case seems to be that Jakarta English schools tend to attract unqualified men interested mainly in a debauched lifestyle of taking intoxicants and pursuing sexual adventures.
The behaviour of these “English teachers,” you argue, damages the perceptions of hard-working white folk like yourself. You then linked perceptions of English teachers to the latest episode Islamic-Western relations. (That was especially desperate).
1) I don’t think Indonesians think much about the Bules here at all. They might think about “The West,” or Europe or America, but the small number of white folks resident in Indonesia are hardly a blip on the radar screen. Too few numbers; too many other important things. Tourists are different – but that’s more of an industry issue.
2) I suspect you have a bloated impression of your importance here. “Bule ngak penting,” you said it, not me. The reason for this, I argue, is that your interactions are Indonesian-Bule (being you) and that you’re used to sycophantic treatment. The latter adds to your incredulity that I, a Brown man, writes better English than you.
3) I suggested you don’t really have a clue what’s going on in Indonesia because of (2) and because you don’t pay attention to the local media (of all kinds), which captures a much more nuanced picture than skimming the Jakarta Post with your daily hangover and grumbling to friends at the bar.
I think that wraps it up. I hope we can stay good friends in the future, but I’d prefer it if you called me Achmad Yth, or “Pak Achmad.”
Thanks.
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I have no idea of the colour of your skin – I have repeatedly stated that you are UK born and educated, early to mid 40s and an English teacher. You may well have Pakistani parents back in Bradford for all I know or care. What I do know is you are not pribumi.
We can meet and you can show your KTP if you wish to prove it to me.
In fact your correction of my Bahasa Indonesia was wrong:
Saya mempunyai beberapa teman cewek dari Indonesia. Mereka mengasih saya seks secara gratisShould actually read (in your academic language): Saya mempunyai beberapa teman perempuan dari Indonesia. Mereka memberikan seks secara gratis kepada saya.
I cannot claim to have picked that up that error, but I don’t claim to be perfect either. You however were being pedantic and therefore should at least be right in your criticism.
As for me calling you Pak you can wait as long as you like. Its not going to happen buddy. If you need respect you have to earn it. When you do I will give it.
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riccardo says:
People are crazy and times are strange
I used to care, but things have changed…
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Sidestepping the main arguments, pal.
It’s true on the grammar, but I was trying to make your flawed Indonesian as correct as possible, whilst sticking to the original voice. (Basic principle of editing – don’t impose your voice on that of another). I would have said it differently, but that would be Achmad’s voice and not Fred’s.
Main points (you have yet to respond):
Jakarta English teachers and small time Bules (like you) aren’t relevant to most Indonesians.
You HATE the idea of an Indonesian speaking good English. You just hate the idea I’ve mastered your language when your command of mine is pidgin at best.
I leave you to your mail-order-bride and fluffer-rental business.
Achmad
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Excuses Achmad, excuses. You stuffed up on your Indonesian. End of that argument.
Expat bules ARE important – each and every foreigner in an overseas country is am ambassador. If you cannot see or accept that simple premise then we cannot go much further, but let me try to explain:
Nations are the sum of their citizens. If you only meet one person from as country, and that person steals your wallet, then it is human nature to assume that all members of that nation are thieves. It isn’t true, but this is human nature. (remember Tuans comments on Indonesians claiming to be Malasysians in the USA)
For most Indonesians the only contact with the west is via the Westerners they see in Indonesia. Lets be frank, the average Indonesian doesn’t go to Europe for their annual holidays do they?
Read Jan Carlzon, former president of SAS, Scandinavian Airlines, and his ideas on moment of truth (it’s a popular marketing concept). The logic is we are influenced by EVERY point of contact on a subject, even if we don’t realize it. Seriously, read up on it and you might understand. Try http://www.andrewgibbons.co.uk/documents/Moments.doc to get you started.
So, if you take one of the most widely accepted marketing concepts of modern times, then every contact with a bule is a “moment of truth”. These contacts might be actual or anecdotal – maybe they see a bule acting like a jerk, or they hear the story at work. In fact you are six time more likely to discuss a bad experience with friends and colleagues than you are a good one.
If you cannot grasp this relatively simple concept I cannot do a lot to help you.
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Fred,
That’s fine. But how many Bules are there in Indonesia, versus how many Indonesians ? Like I said, .0003 (or whatever) percentage. Most Indonesians don’t meet too many Bules and just don’t think about them. How many debates about Bules in the national parliament ?
Bules just don’t count for much. Indonesians are too busy getting on with the business of working, dying, and working out what sort of society they want to live in. Sorry if that makes you feel unimportant.
You also need a bit of help with your logic:
If you only meet one person from as country, and that person steals your wallet, then it is human nature to assume that all members of that nation are thieves. It isn’t true, but this is human nature.
Stupid people will assume that.
Sorry to say, but Indonesians don’t form their impressions of the West through Jln Jaksa – most of their contact with “The West,” through the media. Most Indonesians, even poor ones, watch TV. And believe me, they’d prefer to watch US television than your mug yapping away about how important Bules are.
On the “popular marketing concept,” well, sunshine, hate to break this to you but marketeers aren’t reknown for their commitment to debate, only their commitment to selling things. I can also quote cornflakes packets, Indomie packets and assert they’re important.
Finally, you’re underestimating the intelligence of the people around you (not surprising given most of them are probably fluffers). Indonesians can spot a carpet bagger. They can spot a loser. Indonesians know which Bules can contribute and which can’t.
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Ihaknt says:
Halah gini aja diributin.
Parvita, hats off for creating havoc, it’s very funny to see male ego head-butting each other here. Not that I read the long posts from these alpha males. Well done girlfriend!! -
You SHOULD read the posts, and try to understand both sides of the argument. Its your country….. not mine, not Achmad’s, not the English Teachers.
I may be right. I may be wrong. At least Achmad and I are discussing the issue.
I guess its the Indonesian way, sit back in the sun, let it happen. 🙁
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Its your country
Not anymore…
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Pakmantri says:
I thought I recognized the debating style ……………
Now, I remember, still working on the automatic controller for the tobacco drier eh Fred? 🙂Anyway, what do you think will happen if your postings fall into the hand of some FPI or Betawi Rempug people?
Yes, a “bule” sweeping and I don’t think they care whether you are an English teacher or an electrical engineer! What they care is their little sisters and brothers being corrupted by “bule”!
Imagine 1997-8 but this time bules not Chinese …………………… 🙁I hope it won’t happen for everybody shake!
Ihankt said:
Not anymore ……..
Please tell me you did not mean it.
What happen to “Tanah tumpah darah ku yang mulia, yang ku cinta sepanjang masa” ………………… -
Anyway, what do you think will happen if your postings fall into the hand of some FPI or Betawi Rempug people?
Yes, a “bule” sweeping and I don’t think they care whether you are an English teacher or an electrical engineer! What they care is their little sisters and brothers being corrupted by “bule”!N OOOO its all OK.
Achmad assures me the locals don’t notice bules shagging the brains out of their sisters. Hell I can supply them E and get then to dance naked at Stadium and its OK.
Its carte blanche chaps, anything goes because we bules are invisible. Anything goes cos we are less than 0.0003% of the population so its ok.
FPI??? Pahhhhh
Betawi Rempug??? Tush
They wont even notice we exist – just 25,000 bules shagging local kids senseless.
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rufusOmar says:
I have been reading this thread from quite some time now. A friend forwarded this to me this morning because he thought that I might find it interesting. I found the article and the discussions interesting and stimulating yes, but also disturbing in some cases.
Let me give you my profile.
I am an English teacher teaching in China. I have been in China for over 5 years working in for a university. I am not white. In fact, I am not even western. I am Asian, a Filipino for that matter. I’m 29 years old which meant that I was around 24 when I came to China to teach English. Prior to going to China I was already teaching in a full time basis and doing volunteer work by working with inner city kids. And yes, I do have TEFL and TESOL certification and I didn’t get it online. I may not have gotten it from a university in Australia, New Zealand or UK or US, but I trust my training and the university that gave this training. Believe it or not, I actually did have to study for it.
I came to China for many reasons, a big part of that would be financial reasons yes, but also a huge part of it were the prospects for travel, independence and the experience of another culture. Those things and that Philosophy wasn’t really a degree that is really employable in my country and also I was actually invited by this university to teach English.
I have met many foreign teachers like me working in China. I guess I could say I have seen them all – “stereotypes”, if you may call them – whites, blacks, browns, maroons or what have you. I’ve seen bad apples, some of which you have described in this forum with great detail. I don’t deny that. In any industry (as much as I don’t like calling it), you are bound to get bad apples. And some of you have pointed out that in most cases, it’s the people hiring them who are at fault here. If you’d look at the job postings in TEFL websites, you’d even see some employers not asking for degrees or certificates, just that you have to be a native speaker from certain English speaking countries. I have met and worked with “bad apples” before – in all colors including mine. But I have met more good and hardworking foreign teachers here in China, some of them have even taught in South East Asia for a number of years. These teachers, like me, work for a slightly higher pay (some are even higher) than our Chinese counterparts, yes. But these teachers work hard and don’t just teach just for the sake of making ends meet or paying their college loans back home. Some are in a sabbatical, some just happen to like the country. Even if they do try to make ends meet or pay off their college loans, they make sure that they do a pretty damn good job and make sure that this “slightly higher pay” that they are receiving is worth every penny.
There are unqualified teachers as there are other unqualified expatriates who work in other industries. But I think there is no need to generalize. Many teachers who teach English as a Foreign Language do have proper certifications, and do work in real jobs and do take their jobs seriously. Yes, the ALT/TEFL/TESOL industry does need a lot of improvement, but that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any. Five years ago, a person without any degree whatsoever can teach in China, as long as he/she has a white face. It’s a bit different now. Schools, especially private schools for that matter, need to hire teachers who has a degree AND a white face. Granted that there are still many problems that this industry face – fake certificates and qualifications, preference to Caucasians, nationality issues and what have you. But rest assured, that there are organizations working to make this industry better and more professional.
Why am I posting in an Indonesian thread that is talking about expats in Indonesia were in fact I don’t even work in Indonesia? Curiosity, partly. But I think its even more. The discussions in the thread hit a chord in me. Two in fact. Maybe because the subject and the issues that go with racism and being a teacher is not new to me.
I am not white and I am an English teacher teaching in a foreign country that is still fixated with the idea that beauty is white skin and blond hair. That’s a double whammy for me, and perhaps I am in a misplaced profession. But I beg to differ. Teaching for me, has always been an enjoyable road to many discoveries (one of which is that I can actually teach very well) but it hasn’t been a picnic either. Contrary to popular backpacker and/or expat belief, many of us DO prepare lesson plans and modules, compute grades, talk to students one by one, make sure we know their names, take notes on where they need improving, device ways to make the lessons more interesting, motivate these students to have the confidence to apply for a job in English or even just to say basic sentences, introduce them other cultures and customs, and sometimes (if we are lucky and hardworking enough) help them to think on their own.
Being a teacher is no picnic. It takes hard work, dedication, a great deal amount of patience and generosity. I may get paid lesser than many of you who have posted comments here, and I may even be younger than some you. I may not have a driver or a maid or whateverservanthaveyou but I can assure you this – I am a foreign teacher and a damned good one. I may not be a bule or whatever you call it but I can teach and I teach good. DON’T GENERALIZE and STEREOTYPE a profession because of the things that you google and hear and see in the news. You are bound to get reactions from all over (even outside Indonesia).
_________
Tuan,
Manila doesn’t have any foreign English teachers (except in two international private schools). We don’t need foreign English teachers to learn English. We have been, for a long time, taught English by Filipino teachers.
As for the “as compared to Manila and Bangkok” comment. Erm, was there even a need to mention that? What was the point even? Tuan, my Indonesian American Muslim, it’s a given that the sex industry is institutionalized in many parts of South East Asia and the rest of the world. Go to any major city in any country and you’ll find a red light district. Honestly, don’t kid yourself.
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Janma says:
just 25,000 bules shagging local kids senseless.
I think we both know this is an entirely unfair and untrue statement Fred, you shouldn’t spout untruths just to back up your opinion! You need to get a grip, number one, the sex is almost always consensual, so two consenting parties, it’s not like they are raping them. secondly not all 25,000 bules are doing what you are accusing them of, thirdly statements like that are likely to cause hatred and sweeping as pakmantri was saying. Please be responsible in your arguments.
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Didn’t say Bules were invisible, just unimportant. None of these alleged sweepings have ever happened, so what are you whining about ? The main point is, Fred, that there are big things going on the world. The woes of Bules in Indonesia are legitimate enough, but don’t really deserve to go beyond the jabberings of the transnational trailer trash over at JakChat.
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Achmad, maybe sweepings didn’t happen, but that doesn’t mean the bali bombings didn’t which is largely fueled by viewpoints like that… so think again. my daughter almost died in that bomb.
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It did happen in a smaller scale, remember Solo in 2001 …………. the anti-American sweep.
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[Pakmantri: I don’t know if those Solo things actually happened either, right – did any bules get swept ?]
Janma,
Sorry to hear that about your daughter. What a blessing she escaped. Sorry again if any harm came to her. But I think one of our most powerful weapons against the likes of the Bali bombers is clear, logical thinking.
It’s a stretch to equate my provocative ramblings with a Wahabiist plot to set up a pan-Southeast Asian caliphate. Besides, I don’t think Jemaah Islamiah are racist per se; it’s infidels they’re after, not Bules. Abu Bakar Bashir, dont’ forget, called on John Howard to convert to Islam. (Just imagine: “Damnit, Janet, let’s skip the beachside holiday this year and go Umroh, not really up to the Haj. Allahu Akbar!)
But on the note of rational thinking (and I really am sorry about your daughter) I’d argue dirty water and mosquitos are far deadlier than JI. But deadlier to whom ?
The scourge of dengue fever and dysentry mainly afflicts the poor, particularly the children and infirm. It’s easy enough to stop. It just costs money.
Funny, though, mainstream Australia seems to care more about JI.
Let’s not forget car accidents, either, or any number of things that kill people. JI is a danger to sovereigns states and their moral monopoly on legitimate force. Maybe it’s that moral monopoly that keeps the world in line. I don’t know. But that’s a whole different question.
See, Fred, these are the real questions, not the shaggings of English teachers.
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It’s a stretch to equate my provocative ramblings with a Wahabiist plot to set up a pan-Southeast Asian caliphate.
actually my point was made to fred, not you…. going on like all westerners/expats or ‘bule’ in indonesia are just here to get pussy and break down the moral fiber of this country.
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Yes, fair enough. That’s the kind of thing you’d expect from someone like me. On your daughter, she’s still at far more danger on an ojek or in a taxi, but telling a mother about anticipating danger’d be the last thing I’d do. 🙂
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she was in a taxi….. and I never let her go on ojek… but I’m not dwelling on danger really… you can’t protect them from everything… it wasn’t her day to die… although the taxi driver did.
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They did start sweeping a couple of hotels before the police and “aparat keamanan” stopped them and sent the mob home. But since they only looked for American the mob did not find any.
I agree with you pak Achmad on JI or other laskar-laskar they are always there doing their own thing and we Indonesian learned to live with them, the only time they become annoying or acting up is when it is close to PEMILU time or the government try to divert the attention of the people from something. It is all politic ……… oh well! 🙂
I guess if everything aman tentram adil makmur, gemah ripah loh jinawi they don’t matter anymore eh, nobody will care.
Merdeka, one village at a time!
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Sweeping? Unbelievable to hear that being talked about. If we swept every country outside of Indonesia than Indonesia would be screwed royally. Than there would be NO going abroad to Universities, no foreign investment in Indonesia, no nothing. Thats racial cleansing your talking about.
Something is seriously wrong when intelligent people talk ignorant. This is no longer an intelligent debate. This is ignorance at it’s best.
Indonesia is not in a bad position as a result of outside influences. Indonesia is in a tough hole as a result of Indonesian politicians and power holders stealing from Indonesians.
No bule or outside political force can change Indonesia in a way which would even dent the problems within’ this country.
Only Indonesians can fix Indonesia. English teachers can teach English, Foreigners can run their mom & pop shops here and not even cause a ripple of change in this country.
Sweeping groups of people was a MISERABLE failure when they tried it on the Chinese here. They tried it with the Americans and other foreigners of white skin until Indonesia’s President came on National TV and put a stop to it
Any person, thinking that they are holding any moral high ground, Indonesian or foreign, is fooling themselves and have been fooled by the same governments and powers-to-be that have handcuffed the working class worldwide for over a 1,000 years.
Any and all behaviors of which have occurred as a result of Bule, over the years in Indonesia, are COMPLETELY overshadowed by the larger issues that have plagued and continue to plague this country and it’s people.
When the people of Indonesia put aside their differences, religiously, culturally, and racially and band together as ONE united people and one united force THEN and ONLY then will true change occur.
As a Bule and as an English teacher, I am smart enough to recognize that any positive influence I have will occur one student at a time and affirmative confirmation of those changes will happen so far in the future I will probably be dead before I see it. But I also recognize that by not making the effort one student at a time RIGHT NOW will also have the equal and opposite effect which I would live to see.
Say whatever you want about us English teachers. Narrow down our group and our profession to the select crappy 5% and verbally tear all of us apart as a unified whole. Abuse us, our profession and our characters as a full 100% even if only 5% are guilty of moral and ethical crimes. Go ahead. This forum has .ooooooooooo1% of causing ANY positive change whatsoever here in Indonesia or any other populated country in the world.
At the end of the day, I have sent yet another student abroad for study because of my lowly, loser, can’t stock supermarket shelves in my own country JOB. Us scummy, 4 week trained, sh*t bag English teachers who need and desire only SEX, SEX, SEX assist, side-by-side with local teachers, in sending many students onto higher education abroad.
I pray that those students come back, in the future, to Indonesia and put an end to low-life, don’t deserve to do business anywhere attitudes of people like Fred Floggle (A.K.A.).
I don’t steal from Indonesia. I don’t harm Indonesia’s future. I don’t treat Indonesians like 3rd world, lower human species. I teach and I am damn proud of it and I am damn proud of the students I have seen benefit from my advising them.
I am also thankful to Indonesia for allowing me to survive, eat, clothe myself and pay my bills as a result of my low-life, scummy, sh*tty, loser English teacher job.
So Fred….Enjoy your miserable existence.
Me…..I will wake up tomorrow and teach TOEFL for college admissions requirements and you…….well……you will be here at indonesiamatters.com spreading more hate and vile filth into the world.
Your lack of grace disgusts me. I pray that time softens your heart and soul as well as opens your eyes.
You have the opportunity in life to spread hope and to join people together. I hope you except that challenge and run with it soon.
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Reuters (Vatican City): October 24th, 2007 12:29pm
The Pope has appeared and notified all Catholics and believers in Jesus Christ that Jesus will not be coming as was previously predicted by Revelations. The Pope went on to report that Jesus’ return was no longer necessary for humans had finally ended political and regional strife. The Pope went on further to state that Jesus went on further to quote the infamous Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?”
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