Expats
Oct 3rd, 2006, in Society, by PatungOn the “quality”, or possible lack thereof, of expatriates in Indonesia.
Visitor Parvita, on the dating Indonesian girls article, makes these, somewhat stinging, remarks about expatriates in Indonesia.
I’ve gone out both with Indonesian and expat men (western and eastern) and my lesson to learn is: expats are just for fun and not to be taken seriously.
Most of them that comes over here, especially the westerners, are those who cannot “compete” in their country. And when they come over here, they make better living because our country pays expats waaaaaay better than nationals. Then they became like kings, thinking that they are superiors, and some girls fall for them. For instance, would you think a very successful and smart lawyer, or businessmen in England would move to a country like Indonesia? And the houses they live in in Kemang, when they go back to their countries, say, Italy, they will just live in a one bedroom apartment (or a studio) with no driver and a really small car, commuting to the city? The place I live and the car I drive currently is much much better than what they have.
I deal with lots of western expats, some of them are my friends. They told me that when they are here, they are handsome. In their countries, they are invisible. There you go, a confession from an Australian.
Some expats are even so obnoxious, having to live in the states for long, I know they are the loser kind but when they are here, they are surrounded by women and think that they are God’s gift to women.
When a smart, rich, independent Indonesian women dates an expat here, that expat must be a really damn good one! [bold added]
Certainly some home truths there, but the “Most of them…” part may not stand up to analysis.
520 Comments on “Expats”
-
Gotta say that piercings and circumcision are way off the original topic as Parvits’s original article related to the position of bules being just for fun and not being taken seriously, a bules inability to compete in his own country, and a god-king complex…
Perhaps Patung can create a new thread that would allow more vigourous debate about the pros and cons of male and female circumcision and a new thread for piercings and any resultant increase in sexual pleasure…perhaps even a running poll where people can vote on the number of piercings they have and the sexual pleasure they derive from them…
The bule arguments are always interesting as they are often personal and always, sooner or later, heated. The beauty of Indonesia Matters is that no matter how objectionable an opinion might be, it usually gets an airing!
Parvita’s post has been supported and criticized in the 14 pages that come before this one. Therefore, there is not much to add in response to it other than to say that the argument will raise its weary head again, if not at Indonesia Matters then somewhere else in the blogosphere and we can then all migrate to that site and verbally bash each other stupid there!
Have a good weekend!
-
Tony says:
I originally came to Indonesia in 1995 at the age of 29. I received a company car and a housing allowance–as did my Indonesian counterparts. I left behind a few girlfriends in Canada and I didn’t care because I never had problems getting women in my city.
Most bules who come here do so for adventure. The thought of doing their same job in a foreign locale is intriguing. As for an earlier post that claimed a 49 year old bule never had to pay for sex–that is bullsh*t. Unless he was dating his pembantu and her friends, I dont believe it. Prior to getting married I didn’t date any less or more women than I had in Toronto. Most of the rich Indonesians I know also have a lot of girlfirends because of MONEY–they pay for gifts, rent a night out, etc.
While some bules get a nice house in Pondok Indah, most do not. As far as having more women than they know what to do with–some are undoubtedly kupu2 malam. It sounds like Parvita got dumped by a bule and now she is out to disparage them all–no street cred at all.
Overall, I would say that most bules I know and work with are normal everyday people. Same goes for the indonesians that i work with–everyday people.
-
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Overall, I would say that most bules I know and work with are normal everyday people. ..
Hell No, Tony. Learn historical facts.
Sir James Brooke, being one of the first Bule to land on our shore, began humping local children set a precedence for latter Bule arrivals.
-
lampu says:
parvita may have said it in a harsh way. too black and white maybe. but i can understand what she meant and there are many truths in it.
i hang out mostly with expats rather than indonesians. at times it is 50-50.
yes, i have heard many of them admit how they feel special. how they confidence is boosted since they moved in to indonesia.
actually it is very common for them to admit that.
they may not start the topic, but when asked, they will admit that. only when it is stated by others and put on their face that they get defensive.there is nothing wrong with feeling like that either. expats are considered an exotic creature. thats why indonesians stare at them when they pass by.
they get a “hello mister” numerous times a day. i doubt that they get the same greetings in their own country.many times, they are annoyed by that, other times, they are happy to be acknowledge and seen as “handsome” exotic creatures.
an expat mostly get a nice treatment by indonesians. even when they are wearing sendal jepit and ugly shorts. that are are these advantages of being an expat and every expat knows it.on the other hand, female expats are having a tougher time in indonesia, i think. that worth its own room for discussion.
back to parvita’s comment. there is deep truth in it. maybe best if she said it in a less emotional tone of voice.
MERDEKA!
-
MbakAditya says:
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
June 8th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Overall, I would say that most bules I know and work with are normal everyday people. ..Hell No, Tony. Learn historical facts.
Sir James Brooke, being one of the first Bule to land on our shore, began humping local children set a precedence for latter Bule arrivals.
Hehe, most bules are full of crap, in 15 years I have met few ( I was going to quantify but the rest get quite touchy when reminded) who were worthy of praise.
All you get is continuous moaning about the state of things, though ther own home country may well be in a bigger mess. I rarely hear about the positive things that make this home.
It’s amazing how a ne’r do well bule in a mediocre situation turns into a plastic viceroy when they hit the streets of Jakarta.
They don’t have to know anything about culture, language or custom yet think they run the show.
Sooner the old compulsory language test comes into play the better.As for the molesting, most of them now even get paid for it.
Anyway, must go, nearly 3-00pm, it’s beer time.
-
theimp98 says:
Having spent some time in indo, married to indo lady now living in the US.
Trying now to open a business to move back there.Why? because that is where she is most happy. I could care less where i live. All i need is a good book to read, a vido game to play, a motorcycle to ride, and a something to fly, and I am a happy.
Many of the western expat i got to meet,
1) not happy about being in a overseas spot.
2) running from something back home. Normaly a marriage break-up.
3) like I was. just out to see the world 🙂 I was not looking to get married
I just happen to meet somene I loved in indo.Now, both 1 & 2 on that list, had bad views of indo ladies and of the country itself. They saw all as gold diggers. However like I told one dutch guy, Stop picking up women in bars. ( and in chicken bars at that.).
I saw a couple of women make some very bad mistakes, just becasue she wanted to white bf. The color or race of the person should in no way, be the main reason to pick the color of your mate.
-
Benjamin says:
I think Parvita makes some valid points, i think the majority of Bule’s who work out here are sub standard, infact, after working across the world in numerous countries, it tends to be the norm, they are indeed over paid, pretty useless at what they do, and back home would be mediocre at best. (and i am an expat saying this), that said, the locals are hardly on the cutting edge of efficiency and leading the world in business now are they?.
Im presuming Parvita is reasonable well off, and i would bet my lifes savings that her good fortune was not acquired through a cunning sense of business and intellectual aptitude. The problem with this country starts and ends with corruption. How on earth is your average Indonesian ever supposed to rise through the ranks, become a successful entrepreneur and build this country when the odds are stacked against them?. Most large corporations fill top spots with foreign nationals because the local talent pool is lacking. If your not born into wealth in this country (bar the Chinese), chances are your not going to see any.
Indonesia needs to demand more from the powers that be!, invest in education, eradicate corruption and put in place a strategy to compete on the world stage. Then we wouldn’t be having this irrelevant conversation.
Parvita, don’t blame the Bule’s for your blues, its time you take a look around you…
-
Nia says:
I agree with Tony, most foreigners are just normal people. They think we’re crazy, we think they’re crazy. So everyone’s actually the same.
I find it really sad to see how a small minority of Indonesians in this post just refuse to let go of the idea of the dirty, immoral, sex-crazy bule.
“Hell No, Tony. Learn historical facts.
Sir James Brooke, being one of the first Bule to land on our shore, began humping local children set a precedence for latter Bule arrivals.”
Wow..I hope Aluang is just joking, because painting all foreigners with the same brush as some pedophile guy that came a few centuries ago is just really ignorant. By the way, I haven’t heard of this Mr. Brooke. Is his descendants still humping local children?
We Indonesians have done so many bad things to each other. The rich extort the poor, everything is done in the name of status, and so much hypocrisy! It’s really easy to blame others as the root of all evil. Stop looking at other people’s mistake to make ourselves feel superior. “Ah those bule are so morally corrupt. We should protect our selves”. OH REALLY? Have you looked in the mirror lately?
I agree with some of Parvita’s ponts. It sucks being around incompetent people, and it totally blows when they’re a**holes, think too much of themselves, and are rewarded by big salaries. This applies even if they’re not expats. Some here think she’s just being a b***h, too emotional, and speculated she’s hurt because she got dumped. But wouldn’t you get pissed too?
I understand there is a point where the salaries in Indonesia just can’t compete with what they offer overseas for really high-quality talent. However, I don’t agree with her that the decision to work in Indonesia means they were desperate for lack of better jobs.
I observe two types of foreigners: those that would consider moving to Indonesia, and those who wouldn’t for any amount of money. They would rather stay poor. Given the same professional qualities and opportunities, the ones who would move are more progressive, open minded, flexible and curious. Desperate? Not necessarily. They wouldn’t last long.
-
Ytre says:
Dear Tony,
It’s not nice the way you judge Parvita, saying that she was dumped by a bule. I re-read her posting and I don’t feel that way, that she is angry and desperate.
I know some bule and I learn that they are just a normal human being. I know rich Indonesians and they are as rich as those bules, they live like kings too.
I would suggest Parvita’s posting to be addressed to Indonesian, not to see bules the way most Indonesian see them. Bule are just ordinary people like us.
-
Tika says:
Time for a wake up Indonesia. I am an Indonesian person, who has never been to an international school. I learnt my English from strict indonesian teachers, and I used to be a teacher in Hong Kong, along side with my Phillippino friends. A lot of my friends can’t understand why I have an English accent. Maybe now, Indonesian employers have started to open their eyes and try local teachers. In Indonesia I am qualified in finance management, and other local qualifications.
-
errmm..Tika?..and your point is?..i don’t know about anyone else, but im English and if i wanted to learn to speak Indonesian, i would much prefer an Indonesian taught me how to speak it…..than some local guy who had traveled to Indonesia..hahah!……
-
My point is, it is time to realise, if a person is from a non native English country,and they learnt English, they will never speak like an English person That’s why in Hong Kong, many parents are now quite happy with Asian English teachers who have clear pronunciation. Because they used to overpay and worship English teachers from England. There is no difference in quality of education. As my teacher told us, never copy other white accents, just speak as your own dialect As Indonesia have many different dialects. However, you will pick up your parent’s dialect that brought you up at home. In my case I was brought up with parents originating from Lampung, that was the environment i grew up in, it isn’t my fault that I picked to sound slightly English, and my teacher was proud of me. Now I live in England, and am back to my old profession of finance where people never have a problem understanding me and I never had a problem understanding different English accents as many foreigner find themselves. Here I am surrounded by English neighbours and friends but you still can spot my foreign accent. To cut the story short I am just an ordinary Indonesian local girl who never had any contact with an English speaker before until I got introduced to my English husband by family friends (who happened to be his friend in Hong Kong). My husband never lived in Indonesia and we met and fell in love, got married,moved to Hong Kong and I was never shy with my English. There is nothing fancy about me as I found out many of my husband’s Cantonese friends- who are solicitors- their English is no different than mine. There are Indonesian locals out there who are capable of teaching English, and that will create new job opportunities for fellow Indonesians. My message is try to pronounce properly and the accent will go with it.
bye for now, I’ve had enough of my essay.
latez. -
Tika…
I don’t think Parvita’s original point was really dealing with language teachers and one’s ability to speak English. Parvita’s beef is with Bules that are average in skills, qualifications, and experience being rewarded to a level that they do not deserve. In that sense she has a point. Is the stereotype and generalization true, no. But do these bules exist out there in the Indonesian landscape, yes. I do not think that Parvita has a beef with bules who are highly skilled and qualified. I might be wrong and Parvita can correct me if that is the case.
The English language teacher discussion is probably for another thread. There are good and bad practitioners in the profession, Yet, this is true for any profession. Some native speaker teachers are worth the investment and others are not. This is also pretty standard for most other professions as well.
Tika, I am happy for you that your life is turning out as you hoped that it would.
-
What I am saying is why not value local employees with the same pay packet as bule because they are just as intelligent as bules. And local education is still as good as anywhere else. As for my story is just one little example. Doesn’t matter where you gain your education, if you’re good with what you do, that’s all that matters. Sorry, I don’t mean to offend anybody, bule or local if is useless and do not worth hire and they should be fired,I hope this is ok.
-
timdog says:
Tika – why not value local employees with the same pay packet? Absolutely, would be nice, especially seeing as many local language teachers are experienced professionals with relevent degrees who take the job seriously, and some “native speakers” are incapable alcoholic reprobates with absolutely no skills for the job…
So why the pay difference?
Quite simple – ecconomics. People pay more to be taught by a “native speaker”; the native speakers make more money for their employers than the local teachers, therefore they get paid more (they also need to be given some incentive to work in Indonesia; the local teachers are already stuck there).
Why do people pay more for “native speakers”? Well, people seem to think there’s some special value in being taught by a native speaker. Not neccesarily true (I’m pretty sure I could teach Indonesian a million times better than my becak driver). But it’s probably, to be brutally frank, simply a status thing – “Oh, my kids are taking classes at School X, native speaker, of course…”
If people were prepared to pay as much to be taught by a good local teacher as by a bule, then the salaries might be the same…
In the meantime, it might not be fair, but it’s the way it is…However, there are some F^%$n’ attrocious Indonesian charlatans out there running tin-pot “English courses” – I’ve run into more than a few of them, and the fact that they are taking money from unfortunate people, too poor – or in too small a city – to be taught by the holy grail that is a “native speaker” is a disgrace. One particular character sticks in my mind. He was the self-appointed “director” of a “course” in some minor West Java town; he’d got T shirts all printed up with the snazzy (if derivative) logo of his course, and was bullying his unfortunate students around the Bogor Botanical Gardens in search of a bule to practice on… The man was a clueless disgrace, a bully, stupendously arrogant, utterly convinced of his own ability yet almost totally unable to speak English – and he was taking these poor kids’ money… Even the most reproachable, sozzled old pervert of a “native speaker”, scraped of the Jalan Jaksa pavement at midnight on a saturday, would have made an infinitely better job of teaching than him… just the other side of the story…
-
you make a good point, and there are a large number of bule’s teaching across Indonesia who are nothing more than a sham, infact i loath teachers in general, no matter what subject they tend to teach. However i still think that the fact of the matter is, no matter how well you think you know a language, you will never know it like a native speaker, that is not debatable. Whether or not the native speaker applies this in practice is another topic all together. I think that one should look at things subjectively, the reason the bule teacher is getting paid more than the local one is not really his/her fault, and if your looking for anyone to blame, blame your own country men who set the pay brackets for your own teachers, and all other service sector / education / medical / other genre of job you care to mention.
Anyhow, teachers in general are a loathsome bunch, self absorbed, thinking they are changing the world by passing on their mediocre grasp of the most basic of skills to all Western educated people, discussing academia and linguistics with their bourgeois peers while sipping on Earl Grey tea on the veranda, thinking they are living the legacy of Somerset Maun (spelling?), when in actual fact all they can do is teach, they are totally detached from reality, and surround themselves with students who are no match intellectually, and therefor sit on this pedestal of arrogance and illusions of grandeur.
-
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
June 8th, 2008 at 5:40 pmOverall, I would say that most bules I know and work with are normal everyday people. ..
Hell No, Tony. Learn historical facts.
Sir James Brooke, being one of the first Bule to land on our shore, began humping local children set a precedence for latter Bule arrivals.
——————–
Hmm….i guess you do not pick up the newspaper very often and read about the incest stricken Kampungs and fathers desecrating the virtues of their own Indonesian children……sins and evil are not a cultural phenomenon my friend, they are part of the human psyche, and seeking scape goats will only distract you from your own inadequacies..
-
Maugham.
Something curiously beautiful and post-modern about someone making misspelled literary references…
Why the hatred? Were you molested by you English teacher when he should have been teaching you about Somerset Maugham? -
Miss-spelled..mish-smelled…whatever…it was intentional..to distinguish myself from that loathsome crowd of people…..there’s no hatred over here….i was never schooled in the English language…..English literature yes…..im English…from England…..and for heavens sake don’t drag me into one of these mind blowingly boring conversations you teachers have…your quote is straight of a nightmare “Something curiously beautiful and post-modern about someone making misspelled literary references…”…thats the cue to cock the smith and Western and bring a blunt end to your afternoon high tea debate on the benefits of the ‘Foundations of Morphology and Phonology’….
-
Smith & Wesson by any chance?
-
indeed
-
Tika…
I am all for equal pay for equal work!
Although some of the points made by the others leaving comments are also valid. Most of the time it is the system that provides for bigger pay packets for expats than locals. However, that said, the Directors of the Indonesian Stock Exchange are on remuneration packages equal to anywhere else in the world (as an example)
Native speaker English teachers is a perception and status thing. There are poor teachers wherever you go in the world and there are excellent ones too. However, the criticism here is that many native speakers English teachers here are as timdog so eloquently puts it, scraped off the pavement of Jalan Jaksa. Some of these individuals might have skills and qualifications in teaching, but many do not. There are also many fully qualified and skilled expat teachers in Indonesia as well. Like anything else, one bad apple spoils the bunch.
The misconception is, at least as I see it, that Native Speakers will always be better than non-native speakers in teaching their language. Not true. It depends on what we are talking about here. If we are talking about simple conversational skills, then maybe a native speaker will be better. If you are talking about teaching the technical and linguistic make up of the English language where the focus is on second language acquisition in Indonesia, then perhaps your best bet is someone trained in that regard.
When I went to school and studied English it was not linguistics that I studied, but literature. I did not study linguistics until I arrived at university. The point being that there are plenty of Indonesians that I know who are equally as capable (perhaps more so) as a number of native speakers that I know.
Benjamin…
I am guessing there is a root cause for your hatred of teachers. However, how do you propose we educate our children in the future? Home schooling where the parents are responsible for teaching their own kids themselves. After all if the parents go out to work and then pay someone else to teach their kids then is this perpetuating the cycle of
Anyhow, teachers in general are a loathsome bunch, self absorbed, thinking they are changing the world by passing on their mediocre grasp of the most basic of skills to all Western educated people, discussing academia and linguistics with their bourgeois peers while sipping on Earl Grey tea on the veranda, thinking they are living the legacy of Somerset Maun (spelling?), when in actual fact all they can do is teach, they are totally detached from reality, and surround themselves with students who are no match intellectually, and therefor sit on this pedestal of arrogance and illusions of grandeur.
Just a thought.
Good week to all!
-
taxpayer says:
The reason for “expat/native speaking” English “teachers” in Indonesia is quite simple.
It is not for the purpose of gaining employment from foreign companies within’ Indonesia. It’s so students here can blend and compete in western Universities.
To argue about the character and behavior of these legally employed individuals is naive and ignorant. Like every other occupation, there are employees who are more or less qualified to do their assigned and titled jobs. Unfortunately, English is BIG BUSINESS. Rumored financial totals put ENGLISH training as more lucrative than Microsoft. Total annual profits in Japan alone are around $20 billion per year. So do the math. NOW……
The owners of these cash cow English “Training” facilities are locals. NOT FOREIGNERS!!! So when bitchin’ about English teachers, look at the source of employment. The owners employ “backpacking” “tree hugging” “pedophile” “unqualified” freaks because they are cheap!!! That means, your local owners can eat more profit. So when blaming English teachers for all the ills of Indonesia’s already jacked social mix, remember that it’s those who roam amongst you that are hiring these useless human beings. The owners don’t care about qualifications. And the market doesn’t either. Perfect mix!!!
Just because I can drive a car doesn’t mean I can design them. Ignorance on the market’s end allows these cheap and insulting bule to become gainfully employed. Asians don’t want to pay for quality. They want quick fixes. They wait til’ the LAST POSSIBLE minute to learn subjects that require years of learning and usage to master.
Indonesians can blame Indonesians for inviting these pathetic excuses of foreigners to come here and teach their children. Want to change it?
CHANGE THE DAMN LAW.
I have 13 certifications in ESL teaching. 2 Diplomas, and 78 credits in Linguistics and Phonology. I have 6 years experience and I am a qualified International teacher of teachers (recognized by the United Nations and 117 governments).
I am embarrassed by cheap foreign teachers.
The laws of Indo require English teachers to have a BA, TESOL certification, Etc.
But Indo’s don’t care about their laws. I have watched 1,000’s of enrollees for English courses come and go. NOT ONE HAS ASKED FOR TEACHER QUALIFICATIONS!! (Foreign or Local)
Would you go to the doctor, be told you need surgery and then….NOT ASK THE SURGEON FOR HIS/HER QUALIFICATIONS?
Stop using English teaching foreigners as your basis for bule behavior. It’s childish and pathetic. Indonesians have been passing the blame for years. Indonesians should look in the mirror and solve their problems internally.
As for us English teachers in Indonesia, there are 100’s of “English” schools. Want locals to train ya than pay for a local. Don’t cry and whine about paying for native speakers. You have a choice.
As for their behavior, not all people want to drink coffee and gossip. We are tired of being bent over culturally by people who want or must master English but refuse to learn our culture. Indonesians need to grow up.
Use the internet for study not just Friendster, Facebook and Yahoo.
Learn your own laws.
Read and UNDERSTAND your constitution.
Finally, want the big, bad, terrible, tidak sopan, whore mongering, beer-drinking, party hopping BULE teachers to go away?
STOP REQUESTING NATIVE SPEAKERS TO BE YOUR TEACHER!!!
-
Achmad Sudarsono says:
Touchy, touchy, taxpayer.
Have to wonder: did you get knocked back by a bar girl at Blok M 2nite ?
The owners employ “backpacking” “tree hugging” “pedophile” “unqualified” freaks because they are cheap!!!
You said it, not us !
-
Taxpayer – fabulous stuff… It’s sort of what I said, but a little more forthright… And the absolute crux of the matter is that the English teaching industry is just that – an industry, designed to make money, not actually to teach people English (though in a few good cases that might turn out to be a pleasant side effect of all the money-making…) And yes, obviously, if there are good-for-nothing foreigners out there teachnig English, then it’s the people who employed them who need to take the balme…
There are some good bule teachers out there though… -
taxpayer,
ouchy grouchy, touch a little nerve there, did we ? You brought up the stereotypes, you said it yourself, pedophile etc.
ouchy grouchy.
I managed to learn English without any of you…
It’s just a matter of time before they (foreign English teachers), are shown the door. We can get it all from the internet and pirated DVDs these days.
Sorry.
-
Yes, why on earth do we need Native speakers as teachers here in Indonesia?. In fact why should we learn English at all her Ahkmed?..we can refuse to speak English and refuse to do business with the West, ban English books and have a book burning frenzy in Merdeka Square….then we can all get together and burn down the Chinese owned businesses and make their language illegal too…and perhaps if we are really lucky, our leaders might install a sense of national pride and use foreigners as scape goats to our own economic misfortunes, and the fact they are lining their own pockets with the wealth that naturally belongs to the people of Indonesia will be overlooked, or blamed on the outsiders…..what a wonderful despotic authoritarian utopia it shall be!!
-
Ah…..yes…..Blok M. Another INDONESIAN creation. Everyone always falls back on Blok M, the pits of hell.
I suppose you could call FPI and they could go down there, do some thuggery and Blok M would be gone. That way, you could propose tearing Blok M down and adding some greenspace to your city!!
Bule did not create Blok M. Bule did not create the Kampungan parents who send their daughters there to whore for money. Alas, business is business though. Funny you did not say Kemang, which has far more foreigners drinking and tramping around. Though, I believe all the drugs are trafficked in the “higher” status clubs such as Blowfish and Dragonfly (Mostly patronized by NEW MONEY Indos).
Yes….get rid of Blok M and Jakarta will instantly be cleansed of sin. The birds will return, the skies will be clear, traffic will be gone, child beggars will dance in the streets, the rent-a-baby businesses will close shop, corruptors will turn themselves in to the KPK.
Funny thing is, I have never been to Blok M. Sounds like Achmad has more experience there than most of us Bule. Me, I am too busy having to teach english to students who can’t just learn it on the internet. Poor me!
-
Actually, sorry Expat, I completely apologize.
I was just trying to wind you up.
To be honest, I think teaching, and especially teaching English, is a very noble calling, if taken seriously. Kudos to you for getting the training.
The under-appreciation of teachers in many parts of the West is foolish. The bashing of English-teachers on this site is misguided, it should be directed, as you say, in other directions.
Again, I take it all back. Good luck fighting the good fight.
Some grammar books that might appeal to the brighter sparks:
Eats, Shoots and Leaves.
Woe is I
The Transitive Vampire
etc.
Comment on “Expats”.
Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2025
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact
How about a little piercing down there? Girls do that in ‘Western’ countries as well (hmm I think even more than in ‘eastern’ countries, i don’t have the statistics). And while you’re at it, a little piercing for the man is no gonna hurt that much. They say piercings down there enhance sexual sensations. Hmmm… with this goal in mind, it sure is more interesting than circumcision. And.. get this.. it has nothing to do with religion or the color of your skin! Aint it grand?