44 Comments on “Freedom of Choice in Religion”

1. Yul says:

   March 20, 2009 at 2:28 am

   to Audrey and the like:

   >Well for starters apostates will go to hell. Are we going to take the risk that he will complain to his God that he went away from the right path because we let him to? and thereby opening ourself to the possibility of having to take his place in hell?<

   would you accept, if I said the same applies if someone converts to Islam from Christianity or something else? That he or she will go to hell?

   No, you wouldn`nt, right?

   That`s why Islam values are not universal as opposed to human rights which you cannot
   challenge that easily, because they are based on assumed humanity and not on the self aggrandizement of a certain group.

   That is why “negara islam” is a threat to human civilization, because it is based on the assumption that a certain group is to be treated differently from others, very similar with communism and nazism that put the cause of one “class” or “race” against others.

   fortunately most indonesian muslims understand that and do not vote religion based political parties, do they?

2. Lairedion says:

   March 21, 2009 at 5:31 pm

   I would cherish the day Indonesia declares itself as a truly secular nation although I’m afraid it’s not going to happen anytime soon.

   In Indonesia pressure from society and even your own relatives is suffocating a honest debate about different viewpoints on religious adherence. When I left the Catholic Church some relatives were thinking I was mentally ill or something and all the time I have been thinking it is the other way round. When asked I always say I am a Buddhist. At least Buddhism is close to my agnostic worldview and this way I don’t bring myself and the person asking in an awkward position. Unfortunately compulsory religious adherence and expectation in Indonesian society force me to take such a rather hypocrite stance.

   The contradiction between the Constitution and the six allowed religions is rather odd. For instance, basically I’m not allowed to convert to Eastern Orthodox Christianity should I desire to do so.

3. PrimaryDrive says:

   March 21, 2009 at 9:54 pm

   Hi Lairedion,

   That you’re only allowed a choice of 6 religions is a misconception (and it seems like people are missing my point earlier). The Constitution does not even require you to have any religion. It is just a popular interpretation that says that people must have one.

   Furthermore, Indonesia is a secular nation; this is because we have a self-contained Constitution: it has no dependence on a particular religion that will allow values or rules from that religion to be automatically converted to a cilvil law.

   Social expectation is something different. Socially, Indonesian people are quite religious. It’s just their current way of life. But who knows, people may change.

4. Lairedion says:

   March 21, 2009 at 10:36 pm

   Hi PrimaryDrive,

   Thanks for your reply and I didn’t miss your point. From Wikipedia:

   The Indonesian Constitution states “every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice” and “guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief”. The government, however, officially only recognises six religions, namely Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism.

   I can be a follower of Sunda Wiwitan but I can not register myself as such as Sunda Wiwitan is not recognized by the state.

   Moreover in line with the Pancasila the state shall be based on the belief in the one and only God. Not really secular.

   However you’re not quite off the mark. Lately it is possible in some cities to leave the religion field on your KTP empty or “other”. There’s an interesting thread running over here.
   
   http://www.kapribaden.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13

   Offtopic: Are you an IT Professional? I’m a free-lance IT consultant in daily life.

5. andrey says:

   March 21, 2009 at 10:38 pm

   Primarydrive, dream on.
   read it again: it clearly says: “Atas berkat Rahmat Allah…” Allah, not Jesus, not Budda or something else.
   which means that this country came into being by the grace of Allah, with out which it wouldnt happen.
   Allah, not Jesus, not Buddha or Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa, is the reason of the existence this nation. So said the fore fathers, so it should be.

6. Mr Tic Tac Toe says:

   March 22, 2009 at 12:51 am

   Ah I can see the big picture now. It IS so simple isnt it? so if other religion can no longer use The Term, then the nation automatically desecularized.

   Then, We the liliputians, refuse to call the eggs by some other names. We now understand that we are the last line of defense.

7. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

   March 22, 2009 at 7:57 am

   Mbak Audrey,

   “Atas berkat Rahmat Allah…”

   Here is some clarification:

   The speaker was moslem so ‘Atas Berkat Rahmat Allah’ was used. If he was Hindu, he would mention ‘Atas Berkat Rahmat Shiva’. The ‘Allah’ here is not signification as religion is secondary in Indonesia. To outsiders like you, it is a big deal.

   Apparently, our founding fathers are all moslem, but that didn’t stop them praying to Tuhan Jesus (like my grandparents in those days, Christian god is called Tuhan Jesus), Tuhan Buddha and Tuhan Hindu. Our past and present Presidents continued the tradition by seeking spiritual guidance from past walis and local deities on auspice occasion. Most of our nation’s heroes and policy makers were/are Javanese moslem. We runs the show, not the uneducated masses.

8. Suryo Perkoso says:

   March 22, 2009 at 8:52 pm

   Could settle for “dewa macam apapun”, but I would suspect that would be too easy.

   @Lairedion , go for Hindu, at least you have 330 million choices.

9. PrimaryDrive says:

   March 23, 2009 at 6:22 am

   Dear Lairedion,

   Wikipedia is not always accurate. And you can’t seriously conclude whether or not a nation is secular based on its ministerial regulation on KTP. There are lots of lower level regulations that are contradictive to the constitution. This have to change, but we are not going to change anything if don’t even believe that we too have rights; and that the Constitution belong to all of us, not just to some group of people.

   And yeah, I’m in IT 🙂 I wish I can be a consultant. They seem to make lots of money.

10. Lairedion says:

    March 24, 2009 at 4:44 am

    Hi PD,

    Again, the Pancasila, the principle where the state is built upon, states Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa. A true secular nation would leave out such a principle. Furthermore, the Constitution says everybody is free to follow his/her religion of choice but is silent on not following a religion and so is Indonesian society.

    As for being an IT-consultant, no complaints about the money is good but being a free-lancer makes me even more happy. I don’t like bosses. 🙂

11. diego says:

    March 24, 2009 at 5:04 am

    @Lairedion,

    You don’t like bosses? Oh shit, I hope you’re not one of those linux zealots. I get the impression those linux kids are annoying, and all they know is “to hate”, blind hatred to microsoft, with all those cliches.

12. Lairedion says:

    March 24, 2009 at 5:15 am

    diego,

    I don’t know where you get that impression from. I’m involved in storage solutions (SAN-NAS), virtualization and networking. Can’t be bothered with operating systems but there are plenty of self-employed IT-consultants specialized in Microsoft products. I often cooperate with them on projects. They have certain requirements when it comes to RAID configurations, volumes and LUN’s.

13. diego says:

    March 24, 2009 at 5:33 am

    @Lairedion

    University and CNET…. 🙂

14. PrimaryDrive says:

    March 25, 2009 at 7:01 am

    Dear Lairedion,

    Well, if you put it that way then yes, the Constitution is not purely secular. But given our cultural background, it is as secular as you can get. Those parts you pointed out are no real threat, unless we let some right wing parties impose their own medieval interpretation of them. If people do not want this to happen, they should stand up, unite, and vote. Pls don’t tell me that a bunch of illiterate mujaheedins can to outsmart IT consultants in a Democracy game 😀