Ponari & His Magic Healing Stone
Feb 26th, 2009, in News, by Lairedion
The magical faith healing stone of young boy Ponari is big business for a small village in East Java.
East Javanese village is earning big bucks with its boy wonder
Even Ponari must go to school. He hasn’t been there for three weeks and this Monday is the time. The school director takes him there personally on his “moped”, and a platoon of riot police officers run alongside the 9 year old prodigy to protect him. It is not easy to get the boy away from his village. Thousands of people crowd between the houses and when they see Ponari they even press harder. But people have to wait because Ponari must go to school.
A month ago Ponari was hit by lightning, according to his story. When he regained consciousness there was a stone on top of his head. He threw it away but the stone came back so he took it home. There he discovered the healing effects of the stone: a neighbour healed of fever after he had touched it, the village head got rid of a bad pain in his arm and the local police officer, a pious Muslim, swears he has seen with his own eyes how Ponari healed a boy who had not spoken a single word for five years.
The news about the miraculous healings spread quickly and people started to flood to the small village of Balongsari, a few hours drive from Surabaya. First dozens, then hundreds, and now there are thousands. They bring cups, bottles and buckets of water in which the boy wonder plunges his stone. This allegedly turns the water into a powerful panacea. Ponari is carried around by his father. He looks tired.
A party tent protects him against the sun. There are barriers of bamboo put down to control the crowd. This has already led to accidents: four people have been trampled to death and an unknown number got injured. And also the healing doesn’t work that well. A child of three died after his parents had given him wonder water instead of taking him to a doctor. The media are interviewing more and more people who have been drinking the miracle water but didn’t notice anything. Hamzah (53) says that his eyes are just as bad as before. Such information may not deter visitors. They keep on flooding to the village.
Yet there is growing criticism of the Balongsari circus. Especially Muslim organizations condemn what is happening there. It is superstition and therefore sinful but also dangerous. Child welfare agencies demand closure of this ‘practice’ of Ponari in order to protect the boy against exploitation. Even his father says now enough is enough. He has already tried a few times to get Ponari to school but was always stopped by the crowd and his own neighbours which keep the family more or less as hostages. They want Ponari to continue because they earn big money: they sell food, they rent out parking spaces, sleeping places and sell water in which Ponari has immersed his stone. This poor peasant village is making a daily turnover of one billion rupiah (70,000 euros).
As long as the faithful continue to throng there’s no way back. Ponari says nothing. After school he is back on his father’s shoulders and he immerses his stone in water until he cannot hold it anymore….
This post is a translation of an article which appeared in Dutch daily “Volkskrant” on 24 February 2009 (link: http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/article1154300.ece/Indonesisch_dorp_teert_op_wonderkind).
249 Comments on “Ponari & His Magic Healing Stone”
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Mr Tic Tac Toe says:
Tn. ET, Yth:
But this was exactly the same in your feudal society from the time before the Dutch arrived. This is something that is conveniently forgotten. Read Multatuli’s ‘Max Havelaar’ and you will know who exploited whom.
No, its not forgotten. But the fact that the feudal society was as evil as the dutch, cannot justify what the dutch did.
Have you ever heard of a war in which the winner paid for the damage?
Yea actually. Iraqi war. that poor shrub…
But ok. If this can be justified from your POV. We can agree to disagree.
Then Sukarno should have said ‘tidak’. But he didn’t, probably because he was a better Realpolitiker than you are and he knew what would have been the consequences by refusing to pay.
First. Wasnt that my argument when answering your question on why we didnt say Tidak? Its so confusing how you can turn it against me. LOL,…..
…And No he wasnt a realpolitieker. hes just a dreamer.
Sjahrir, Hatta, and some other dude that i forgot the name were the leaders.
Soekarno rejected the idea of paying, but he didnt have that power back then. The debts was one of the reasons indonesia turned left, coz just like the dutch we didnt have the means to pay, sugar prices crashed 20 years earlier.
And there is no way indonesians can defend themselves in negotiations, for the reason you stated above: We were defeated at war. So my statement still stands: we had to pay the consequences of napoleonic wars, til the year 2000.And also no, im not a politician, after listening to collection of kissinger’s speeches for a whole month, i decided its not my thing.
Surely you are better than me on that.The Dutch are only a small people (10 million? around that time) who were also devastated by WWII. They couldn’t have repaid the loans because without their Indonesian hinterland they simply didn’t have the means.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly my point from the very beginning, lets repeat them again:
So The dutch took the loan, without Hindia’s consent.
To pay their older debts.
then everything went bad.
The dutch couldnt possibly pay it.
So, Indonesians had to pay,
even though we were already poor.
And that caused political turmoil for 15 years,
even made us flirt with communism.
Until some other feudal puppet-dictator-king installed
(by exactly the same “bankers” that lend the dutch and forced indonesians to take responsibility),
then he created another corrupt system,
and slain papua’s, aceh’s and timor people.
Until some 10 years ago,
New generations started to take the burdens
And slowly …clumsily fix things…So why is it so hard for some people to understand why indonesia is in such a fubar conditions, and started asking whether it was genetic?
MERDEKA! 🙂
(sorry AS for copying your signature)
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On your marriage analogy:
But, but, the wife WAS the bussiness!
So the husband made his wife a prostitute to pay his debt, he invested on her clothes and makeups, until shes no longer profitable. So the wife somehow able to get a divorce. The wife can take the house, but also get the husband’s debt, for the same reason britney pays alimony for K-fed , coz he didnt have a job.
So the bank installed new pimp.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ ET
What house title certificate? You threw the Dutch out and kept what was left. No need for a certificate.
Let me put this another way. Suppose you were married – it could even be an arranged or forced marriage – and during this time you borrowed money to build a house, buy furniture and set up a business the profits of which you also used to pay other debts, even the dowry you had to pay for your wife. But you turned out to be a brute and an arsehole and your wife – for all good reasons – kicked you out, stayed in the house and took over the business. During the divorce proceedings of course the outstanding balance of the debts was the subject of much heated debate. The question is would you, having lost most of your assets, be prepared to pay off the balance and lay your ex on a bed of roses? And what about the bankers who provided the loans? Of course they would look after their own interests and try to secure as much as possible. In the end it is not their business to solve marital problems.You are putting forward a completely different analogy.
The ‘neighbourhood robbery’ was to illustrate what Pak TTT said. But in the real world, it was more complicated than it sounded. I will represent it in a more detailed yet simplified form for bule readers:
While you were robbing your wealthy neighbour, other whitey crooks were busy robbing other Asian neighbourhood in the north, east, west and far west. After centuries of robbing, the whiteys households naturally become abundant with resource wealth. With their ill-gotten wealths, they created a market of demands or wants (in economic term). They also started universal land title office and bank (the UN and the IMF) supposedly neutral and purportedly to look after the welfare of everyone.
Now, we chased you out. In haste you left your truck. Of course we would keep the truck and the already paved driveway. How wonderful to apply the ‘scorched earth policy’, but the tide had changed so fast that you had no time for it. We now demanded the land title back as well as the stolen goods, you would not want to return what you stole and you have the backing of all your whitey ‘brothers-in-crime’/’White Power’/’White Solidarity’. To get our disarrayed household back in form, we needed urgent funds to reorganise things. The only way is to borrow from the supposedly neutral bank (the IMF). However, the bank would not lend us the money unless we register with the Land Title office. Saying ‘tidak’ was easy but the consequences could be far worse with no fund to rebuilt. We reluctantly signed the loan that comes with an exorbitant fee. If we have not been paying our loan, we would be in a much better position.
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Mike Oxblack says:
We don’t have to go back deep into colonial history to find Indonesia (and other developing nations) saddled with foreign debt. Indonesia has only just finished paying back the de facto world government of the IMF for it’s “bail out” a decade ago. Under IMF bail outs (known rather ominously as ‘structural adjustments’) debts run up by private power and Western supported elites are nationalized and transferred onto the shoulders of the countries poorest. This is the new economic colonialism. In fact countries that have rejected IMF and World Bank supposed free market programmes and retained some national government control over their finances (such as Korea, China and Taiwan) have fared much better than the South American economies that the IMF programmes have destroyed. Colonialism continues apace…
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ET says:
AAB
Saying ‘tidak’ was easy but the consequences could be far worse with no fund to rebuilt.
That is all that I have been trying to explain. But you keep ranting on about whitey ‘brothers-in-crime’/’White Power’/’White Solidarity’ and stolen goods that have to be returned. Most of what has been ‘stolen’ was agricultural produce that replenished itself. Do you want the Dutch to return all the bags of sugar, cloves, coffee, pepper, rubber etc? And stolen from who? The Indonesian people? There was no Indonesian people. There was a bunch of feudal sultans and raja’s who were constantly at war with each other and who were oppressing their people in exactly the same way, if not worse, as the Dutch. Read your own history. When a raja went out for a walk among his subjects they had to prostrate themselves with their face in the dirt. I have never heard of a Dutch Resident demanding the same kind of treatment. The rakyat had to work pro deo at regular times for the priyayi and if a bangsawan saw a girl that pleased him she had to present herself stante pede at his istana and it certainly wasn’t to do the dishes.
What the Dutch did was systemize and manage on a large scale the oppression that was already in place by using local powerstructures for their mutual interests. And they easily got away with it because kowtowing superiors was already part of the adat. The only difference is they were White and the others were Brown if that’s what’s bothering you.
And no, I’m not defending colonialism nor am I a member of the White Solidarity brotherhood. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I only try to put things in perspective.If we have not been paying our loan, we would be in a much better position.
I don’t quite understand. First you said that by not paying the consequences could be far worse and now you say you would be in a better position.
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Tn. ET, Yth:
Firstly, dont confuse my arguments with AAB arguments.
The only difference is they were White and the others were Brown if that’s what’s bothering you.
No sir, It has nothing to do with that.
The real problem was the benefits of the people’s works went to some other place not to local people or local ruler.
If it was local injustice, people can always rise up to stand against their kings and take their wealth, as always happen in nusantara from time to time.
The mechanism of distribution of wealth would be easier if the benefits were still contained locally. Either by force or peaceful way.
They couldnt rise against kings and queens of netherland to take their wealth.
It is one thing if the unjust kings made their monuments here, the people could still see the result of their sufferings, some perhaps proudly.
Its another thing if some unjust european rules made their dams and monuments far away from here.
They can only remember the sufferings. -
@ ET
Most of what has been ’stolen’ was agricultural produce that replenished itself. Do you want the Dutch to return all the bags of sugar, cloves, coffee, pepper, rubber etc?
Spoken like a true whitey. Yes, it was mostly agricultural, however, you conveniently forget the nusantara clock had stopped during those centuries of suppression. Our progress came to a standstill. Our abled people ‘enslaved’ to feed the monkeys on our back. Those who fight back were killed or exiled to lands as far as Ceylon.
And stolen from who? The Indonesian people? There was no Indonesian people. There was a bunch of feudal sultans and raja’s who were constantly at war with each other and who were oppressing their people in exactly the same way, if not worse, as the Dutch.
This is what the whiteys want us to believe. A bunch of feral tarzans clubbing each other. SriVijaya and Mojopahit are just imaginations.
I have never heard of a Dutch Resident demanding the same kind of treatment.
They don’t have to. They just rape, kill and throw the body away.
What the Dutch did was systemize and manage on a large scale the oppression that was already in place by using local powerstructures for their mutual interests. And they easily got away with it because kowtowing superiors was already part of the adat.
Do they have a choice? Once again, you conveniently forgot to ask why the robbers were in our house in the first place.
I don’t quite understand. First you said that by not paying the consequences could be far worse and now you say you would be in a better position.
By not paying the ransom, we will not get the land title and will be vulnerable to further exploitation by other whitey robbers. The Brits were in Malaya and was eyeing for an opportunistic takeover where the Dutch left off.
If we have not been paying our loan, we would be in a much better position.
We have been paying off the exorbitant loan and interest fees, and these money should have been better spent in rebuilding our nation.
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Anyway, while we’re at it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_HavelaarEnglish version:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Max_Havelaar_(Wikisource)/00And if anybody has time to do it, please help to continue this:
http://id.wikisource.org/wiki/Max_Havelaar
Tn. BK, Yth:
I dont have the english capability and enough data to do that just yet.Tn. MO, Yth:
is this (y)our anthem?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtAfIjRKUak🙂
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AAB
Do they have a choice? Once again, you conveniently forgot to ask why the robbers were in our house in the first place.
ET said
And no, I’m not defending colonialism nor am I a member of the White Solidarity brotherhood. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I only try to put things in perspective.
How many times do I have to repeat myself? By perspective I mean a third party’s view. I’m neither Dutch, nor Indonesian. My only crime is being White.
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Oigal says:
Shame you took it so personally moppe..ttt.
As I find the general topic interesting although you moppe..ttt, tedious and unable to move beyond your pre-conditioned grievances.
Any number of countries (and more relevent asian countries) have experienced some particularly difficult periods of colonisation, war and/or occupation. The degree of progress since then is remarkable in not only what has been achieved but the difference between some countries.
South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Philipines, India for example. All have suffered as much if not more in some cases than others. Although perhaps the Allies should have sent Indonesia a bill for ending the Japanese occupation or perhaps left as part of the Japanese empire (ok..last sentence a bit loony but point is old debts can be very subjective and emotive)
The moppe..ttt agruement that Indonesia was left poor and desitute whilst true to a certain degree falls down massively as in comparision with many other regional countries Indonesian had an abundance of natural resources and advantages that many countries did not and have not yet has not reached that potential in comparsion to many others.
Yet the degree of “progress” or lack of doesn’t seem to have a common linkage factor or is it perhaps
It cannot be Islam as Phillipines could be said to have yet to reached its potential (mmm… but perhaps it could be religion tho… we are victims but God will provide?)
The point someone made that it should be remembered but time to move on seems very valid.
The reality is even if they (in this case the Dutch) had the money, compensation is not likely ever to be paid. Life is not fair nor rarely just, so the constant whine that it is not fair really only distracts from the main game and provides excuses for those who benefit from the status quo.
Strangely, I would venture and others like me are some of those who do benefit in some ways from the status quo. Whilst the “poor bugger me” attitude provides an intellectually lazy excuse not to provide decent education and the provision of an basic infrastructure to large portions of the population, then foreigners will continue to be required to ensure the flow of corperate funds into government coffers.
Of course, there is a much more sinister but smaller elite who have many more reasons to wish to no changes to the status quo. They are extermely happy with people like TTT and the myopic focus on past wrongs as it the more we look back the less those reponsible today are called to account.
They couldnt rise against kings and queens of netherland to take their wealth.
That is just silly…What was the maximum numbers of Dutch here at anyone time?? Theonly reason the ductch succeeded was with the active assitance of any number of regional Sultans, Regents and other sellouts. You didn;t need to get into a knife fight with Dutch Royality.
In actual fact the Dutch “occupation” was fragile at the very best of times (do some reading on how easy it was for Stamford Raffles to just walk in) So spare us this dreamland rubbish that “Indonesia” was powerless to act, it was the realpolitic that achieved the occupation not military force.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Philipines, India for example. All have suffered as much if not more in some cases than others.
Ok, fine. lets follow your argument.
Show me, which country that has US$4 billions of debts at their formative stage, along with poor uneducated populations? Perhaps i can learn from them.
As far as i know, the others started from blank slate. But perhaps i was wrong. So, show me.
That is just silly…What was the maximum numbers of Dutch here at anyone time??
Doesnt matter as long as they have guns. And more over, they also used mercenaries from all over the world when at war.
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@ ET
You are looking at a Brown men response through a whitey’s lens, though a 3rd party. Anyone can ask questions. There is no misdeed on your part being white, it is only a discourse.
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TTT..
India and Phillipines both started from much worse positions $$ wise than Indonesia. Japan, started from a much much worse point infrastruture wise..
But you are still missing the point..IT DOESN’T MATTER..
No one is going to give Indonesia any compensation no matter how richly (or not) deserved. In the real world nobody cares except for their own national interests, what needs to be addressed (IMH0) is how do we move on from here. Blaming others is not going to work but working out how other countries are moving ahead might.
You are looking at a Brown men response through a whitey’s lens
Aaagh quoting AAB.. although he raises a point.. if we could move past his normal racial wank, there is no doubt perspective changes everything which was the orginal question..that is it caused by environment, history or genetics aahhh..oh my gosh that word again!!…shock horror but seriously more than one commentator has commented about the “I think” vs the “I feel” (neithier being more right than the other) and how does it prevent or otherwise enpower development. To put it simply you have one group saying I “feel” offended and you need to deal with that before I can move on..and another group saying (includes me I admit) I “think” you need to face facts and move on. In my defence, I would suggest that the modern world doesn leave much room for the “I feel” societies, that perhaps is a negative but remains the reality
Interestingly TTT you are providing a classic case of the “I feel” its all about the notion of feeling aggrieved by past wrongs and injustices so much so nothing for the present can survive.
Doesnt matter as long as they have guns. And more over, they also used mercenaries from all over the world when at war.
I know its tough and offends the Nationalist revisionist history….guns they had very few and soldiers of fortune even less unless you count the Indonesians fighting with the Dutch. The Dutch were extremely isolated and locked down in a number of “strong” points not striding across the land like some demi-gods they left that to local rulers who paid the dutch a very hefty dividend for the rights to do so (who committed the greater evi, i wonder)
The dutch existed by playing one Indonesian Leader against the other.
The myth of a some all-united Indonesia was just that.. a myth. Which makes the leaders of modern Indonesia even more impressive as they managed to hold it together in 1945 long enough to achieve victory (even that was not done without the much discounted outside help). -
Tn. Oigal, Yth:
India and Phillipines both started from much worse positions $$ wise than Indonesia. Japan, started from a much much worse point infrastruture wise..
Show me. Dont just ipsedixit.
Interestingly TTT you are providing a classic case of the “I feel” its all about the notion of feeling aggrieved by past wrongs and injustices so much so nothing for the present can survive.
Its so easy to loose track of the chronology, if you throw more and more red herrings, isnt it?
Especially when you are the one who bring the conversation towards my explanations.I knew you would do this technique to shift focus from your first flawed “question”. 🙂
The Cunning Tn. Oigal.
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OH… One more thing:
No one is going to give Indonesia any compensation no matter how richly (or not) deserved
The idea of talking about compensation was YOUR idea not mine. I said: I DONT want compensation.
You can attack your own idea all you want, and you can feel good about it. Its called Master Debating. 🙂
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YAWN…So endth the discussion, as they say manners doth maketh the man..not something you have to worry about for some time yet..Your teachers would be proud.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
YAWN…So endth the discussion, as they say manners doth maketh the man..not something you have to worry about for some time yet..Your teachers would be proud.
LOOLLLL…. attacking my manner now?
OK. Tn. Oigal. If you said so.
Everything that you decreed IS the truth.
🙂
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Attacking… nagh.. don’t flatter youself… the terminally insecure are at best a mild temporary amusement.
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Oh thanks for the link..I get it now and there I was think you were just making sh*t up again..and..again…and..again..For someone who was complaining about respect you certainly lead with your chin.. must be the brashness of youth or stupid is as stupid does
ipsedixit….”Making unsupportable statements in a discussion (or words to that effect) like…mmm like say…
The debts was one of the reasons indonesia turned left,
If it was local injustice, people can always rise up to stand against their kings and take their wealth, as always happen in nusantara from time to time
The mechanism of distribution of wealth would be easier if the benefits were still contained locally. Either by force or peaceful way
Doesnt matter as long as they have guns. And more over, they also used mercenaries from all over the world when at war.
Oh its the dutch they did it ..the dutch they did I tell you they did!!screaming into the night
(ok I made this last one up as summary of the muppe…ttts position)
Yea I know..I said I wasn’t going to but this is such classic status quo mindset its hard to resist.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
Those are: an opinion, an if statement plus historical summary, another if statement, an obvious historical fact, and a mockery.
You can argue an opinion,
Ex: “Indonesia DIDNT turn left”you can argue an if-statement by giving another scenario or just accuse it as slippery slope
argument,
Ex:”People CANT rise up against their kings, and its never happen in Indonesia”
Which can easily be proven wrong.you can present your fact to test another fact,
Ex. “The dutch DIDNT have guns”And mockery… well, thats just plain logical fallacy 🙂
This is ipsedixit:
India and Phillipines both started from much worse positions $$ wise than Indonesia.
That is your style Tn Oigal. Using “I said so” all over the place.
one can easily test whether it was mere ipsedixit or real knowledge of yours, by asking: “how much debts in $$$ did India, Philippines had?”
IF you present your numbers, instead of just plain i said so, we can test it by researching our own sources.
And this is an opinion on historical fact:
Japan, started from a much much worse point infrastruture wise..
Which i can easily answer:
Agreed, but it was their choice, and they did get help from the americans after the war.You should learn how differentiate them, OK? 🙂
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Pak TTT,
Re,
You can attack your own idea all you want, and you can feel good about it. Its called Master Debating.
LOL Yes, he is a Mastur Debator. Sooner or later, he will turn white Javanese
Below is a song I wrote for him, the corrupted version is here.
I think I’m Turning Javanese
I want a dukun to take your picture
So I can look you from inside as well
You’ve got me turning
Up and turning down
And turning in and
Turning ’round
CHORUS
I’m turning Javanese
I think I am turning
Javanese
I really think so
REPEAT UNTIL FADES -
Muppe..TTT,
Dearie me.. Not happy with misquoting and refusal to address issues we have gone to out-right fibs now..
you can present your fact to test another fact,
Ex. “The dutch DIDNT have gunsReally did I say that? Really now..come on little one???
Even in your desperate attempt to hold on to status quo as drilled into you (desaS pite the glaring inconsistencies) I have always tried to give you the benefit of holding some degree of intelligence. I don’t believe even you could have missed the point I was making about Dutch Firepower at the time. But with suc a deliberate misquote and change of context as above leaves you in the unfortunate position of being dumb as DS or shall we say unecomonical with the truth (You really should show more self dignity than that).
As for Debts and figures, I would if I thought if you were worth the effort but never once have you addressed an uncomfortable issue so YOU go google and have some fun there. Do look at Vietnam as well, when doing your comparisions (just as hint).
Agreed, but it was their choice, and they did get help from the americans after the war
And Indonesia didn’t..Laugh.. you are amusing at least…(not to mention didn’t you squirm and say you didn’t need any help anyway that only made things worse..who knows who can keep up)
Utimately, the best agruement is when you go for walk outside today.. take a good look with your eyes open for once. Be careful tho, I think the Dutch have forgotten to clean out the canals again..the b*STards..
LOL Yes, he is a Mastur Debator. Sooner or later, he will turn white Javanese
mmmmm… AAB.. It may be a fluke but I am beginning to think differently of you..scary!
.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
Really did I say that? Really now..come on little one???
No, Sir. If you dont get it, i will patiently explain.
Its just an example of how to test a fact, instead of just acuse it as ipsedixit. The word “Ex” meant “Example”, its purpose was to teach you how to make an opposing statement.
I hope you can understand the concept of “example”.
As for Debts and figures, I would if I thought if you were worth the effort but never once have you addressed an uncomfortable issue so YOU go google and have some fun there.
The burden of proof is not on me. You made a statement, proof it, dont just ipsedixiting.
Only then we can compare their debts to indonesia’s debts. Then you can bring your “question“, whether it was genetic.
Then i will ask you again for evidence on genetics, and cultural. Only then we can decide which answer is correct. That way we can discuss healthily.
Chronology, sir, is the weapon of mass destruction of red-herrings.
If you have difficulties on understanding the concept of Logical Discussion, albeit a passionate one, then you are free to ask questions, im willing to help your incapability.
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AAB
You are looking at a Brown men response through a whitey’s lens, though a 3rd party.
That’s not entirely true. When I set my first steps ashore the nusantara I was always wearing brown shades. I was also already rather fluent in bahasa, which I learned all by myself (otodidak, ya), and rest assured, it was not to lure the kiddies. I have been wearing my brown shades for as long as I could – and I still do – but looking at the contents of the IM screen on my laptop sometimes forces me to take them off. Just to be sure I believe my eyes.
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Muppe..ttt ..An example has to be just that.. not a lie or a total misrepresention. Caught out pretty bad muppe..ttt and all the squirming and squibing doesn’t change the fact. Trouble is one caught lying once then anything else you say is suspect. Perhaps you during your endless trolling of wiki you might try section on ethics.
As for figures..yawn… quoting wiki (??)..a dubious valuation with an even more dubious relative time rate, no allowance for infrastructure that was nationalised..Give me a break..
YAWNNNNNNNN
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
Lying? Ethics?
LOL. some more red herrings.If you think i was lying, bring your numbers. Put them here. So third party can check my sources, your sources, and their sources.
It is easy to admit that my numbers are wrong, if you have opposing proof.
It is even easier to admit that other asian countries had worse debts at their independence, if you can show me the numbers.Perhaps after that we can go on your first question? Im more interested on that genetic proof that you havent given.
If you wanna use logical fallacies over and over again, Thats fine too. I can do this ad nauseam.
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As you liek examples so much
To go from
I know its tough and offends the Nationalist revisionist history….guns they had very few and soldiers of fortune even less unless you count the Indonesians fighting with the Dutch. The Dutch were extremely isolated and locked down in a number of “strong” points not striding across the land like some demi-gods they left that to local rulers who paid the dutch a very hefty dividend for the rights to do so (who committed the greater evi, i wonder)
to…
you can present your fact to test another fact,
Ex. “The dutch DIDNT have guns”Is eithier a deliberation mispresentation of the point I was making (aka a lie) or demonstrates a complete inability to grasp the simplest point (if you agree with that point or not is moot).
Therefore your options are.. a person on at best nodding aquaintance with the truth or someone limited comprehension…you choose (although based on your other mispresentations not such a hard choice, for most I would think).
As for the question..laugh..still not sure myself although you are a perfect example of the end result..how you got there still intrigues me. It’s a relatively common insular mind set, if somewhat regressive.
Now you will have to excuse me as your complete inability to address any issue outside your rote learning has been weighed, measured and found wanting. There is really no point to discussing anything further with you in you cannot even provide the basic couresty of quoting someone honestly.
Have fun and do try to look to the future instead of the past.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
Is eithier a deliberation mispresentation of the point I was making (aka a lie) or demonstrates a complete inability to grasp the simplest point (if you agree with that point or not is moot).
I wasnt quoting you on that post. Where in the post i said i was quoting you?
As i explained, i was giving example how to test whether a statement was an ipsedixit, or a testable statement.
Hopefully, by understanding that, you can differentiate between an ipsedixit and a valid statement (whether correct, or incorrect statement)If you cannot grasp the concept EXAMPLE, then perhaps you should go back to school. Go study logic.
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Tn. Oigal, Yth:
Have fun and do try to look to the future instead of the past.
Again, look at the chronology:
You asked whether it was genetic or cultural.
I questioned the premises of your question, requesting proof of validity.
And i also gave you another possibility of option: debt at independence. I took great care on explaining my position.
You argued that other asian countries were in worse position, by mere ipsedixit.
I requested proof. It is easy to admit that i was wrong if you have data to debunk them.That way, we can only focus on genetic matters.
Its a simple and logical discussion without all of your red-herrings.
And by presenting another possibility, it never meant that i ONLY blame the dutch, or only clinging to the past. I have stated that.
It was YOUR statement, you accused me as: xenophobia, fixated to foreigners, blame-the-dutch guy, and clinging to the past. Its okay, even though they are all logical fallacies. Because, by giving you another option to your question, it doesnt mean i stopped working to build my country.
Again, you can attack your own statement and feel good about it. I wont disturb you master debating.
But if you cant go back to the essence of the discussion and keep throwing more and more red-herrings. One can guess, that you actually have nothing.
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Mr TTT
No need to remind me. I know what colonization is and I don’t approve of it. It’s the strong and advanced exploiting the weak and less developed. But this was exactly the same in your feudal society from the time before the Dutch arrived. This is something that is conveniently forgotten. Read Multatuli’s ‘Max Havelaar’ and you will know who exploited whom.
Have you ever heard of a war in which the winner paid for the damage?
Then Sukarno should have said ‘tidak’. But he didn’t, probably because he was a better Realpolitiker than you are and he knew what would have been the consequences by refusing to pay. The Dutch are only a small people (10 million? around that time) who were also devastated by WWII. They couldn’t have repaid the loans because without their Indonesian hinterland they simply didn’t have the means. This is probably one of the reasons why the Americans stepped in to sideline the Dutch and secure at least the repayment of the debt so the bankers could have their money.
No need to take it personal. I was only trying to analyse international politics from a detached standpoint but this seem beyond your capacity. So we’d better call it a day indeed.
AAB
What house title certificate? You threw the Dutch out and kept what was left. No need for a certificate.
Let me put this another way. Suppose you were married – it could even be an arranged or forced marriage – and during this time you borrowed money to build a house, buy furniture and set up a business the profits of which you also used to pay other debts, even the dowry you had to pay for your wife. But you turned out to be a brute and an arsehole and your wife – for all good reasons – kicked you out, stayed in the house and took over the business. During the divorce proceedings of course the outstanding balance of the debts was the subject of much heated debate. The question is would you, having lost most of your assets, be prepared to pay off the balance and lay your ex on a bed of roses? And what about the bankers who provided the loans? Of course they would look after their own interests and try to secure as much as possible. In the end it is not their business to solve marital problems.