Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Lairedion says:
Patrick,
You must have heard of the Fatima Mansions, a great Irish band from the nineties. From their song: “Popemobile to Paraguay”.
Eternal City, firm and true, no naked crimson lights
Constant like an anthrax bomb, honest like a knife…
All of this must never die
Popemobile to Paraguay
It’s been a while since you said heil
You CIA-bred necrophile
No Russkies left to rail at, not for now
but the Slavs in their millions
with their scrapheaps of children
must replace your South Americans
More skulls to keep your Mafia in the Mafia Top Ten
They’ll mass when commanded, they’ll hate when they’re told
They’ll murder their neighbours for the good of their soul
They’ll punish your enemies if you’ll read out their names
They’ll be adorning the bridges from the Don to the Thames -
Andy says:
With all this talk of music how about the fact that one of the greatest bands in the world AC/DC are back!!!!!! Go you good thing!!! Black Ice album released worldwide tomorrow and a world tour to follow…Let’s all rock!!!
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Marisa says:
You asked Therry to review your blog so you would have more traffic and be popular again.
Thanks for using every single tiny bit of my basa basi, can’t even remember most of them.
Yes, I did say stuffs like: Review my blog too please, sepi banget nih. I better quit. Then cry emoticons. It’s called basa basi. Gotta admit that it was quite lame, but thanks for taking it for granted. As if I have begged for your help. You wish.
“..and be popular again.”
You’re really good in playing with words, aren’t you?
Be popular in what, rima? What?Perhaps the only reason I could make myself known among bloggers is because I participated in UU ITE meeting with the minister. And then pak Fatih reviewed the blog, I’ve been getting traffic from there as well. The rest depends on the content in the Journal, along with my own writings. None of my present projects involve or relate to anything in Indonesia Matters, nor your so-called clique.
Be popular in what? This is the internet, rimafauzi. If we’re talking about having traffic equals SEO, every SEO-ed blogger is popular for that matter.
You said several times that you will close your blog because you had less and less visitors, and some of us suggested you write something personal about yourself to spike your traffic and enable your readers (I was one of them) to know you better.
Hm, I think it was during the Journal’s one year anniversary. I opened some sort of a topic request booth, and your friends directly requested for personal stuffs. One of them sounded more like giving a direct order, than a suggestion.
Then I wrote it, then there was no response howsoever. Probably I was wrong, but I see no courtesy in that. After you order a person to write you something, the very least you could do is confirm that you’ve read it. That’s it.
Sorry, rimafauzi, but I could tell what is true friendship and what is merely a power play.
You asked to be included esp by Anita, to our so-called clique, but not after trashing us first. And the sad this was, we actually liked and admired you then, but after you went all cuckoo, all of us are seriously terrified of you.
I was angry. Sick and fed up.
People hold in their anger and eventually take meds, I don’t.
I never expected you to like or admire me, so why bother?Seriously terrified of me? Oh, really? I’m just a person, one person, rimafauzi.
You’re in a group, your so-called clique there. No matter what I said to defend myself, you’ve already won by numbers.
Is it *I* that terrify you so much? Or your own mind? Your own truth?Whatever it is that is so terrifying, I should just take that as a compliment.
Also, the funny thing, there is actually no clique, everybody who was in Jakarta and interested in a meet-up e-mailed each other and arranged for it, why didn’t you?? They probably assumed you are busy or wasn’t interested to meet them.
Have no idea. I reckon by that time, I’ve already stopped caring.
@ Lairedion
Don’t waste your time, Marisa. We already have a dragonwall on IM. He has never lost a swearing competition.
I know, just thought it would be a great idea to swear.
The present topic is about intellectuality, anyways. Swearing would be an easy target.No need to get upset with housewife’s blogs. They are only obsessed with sex, dicks and vagina’s anyway. That’s why I prefer their blogs over yours. No offense though.
Who said anything about housewives?
It’s your business to prefer this over that, Lairedion, I don’t care.
I’m not blogging exclusively for you.@ janma
then there are posts from Marisa accusing him of demanding segregation (which, try as I might, I could find no evidence of…)
An assumption. Not an accusation.
Sometimes you need assumptions here and there to get the debate going. As long as it still relates to the topic suggested: atheism.@ peace
Is it over yet, who is the winner?
They are.
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Anything else?
Keep this going, but can you all do it in some sort of bulleted list of questions, or yes, accusations? So I could answer it one by one more easily.
I’m free for around two more days, then I should go back to my routines.
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Pardon me for quick reading — again, missed these spots.
You say you are not obsessed with white men or girls who marry white men, but in several times you bash girls who marry white men, even me while I am clearly married with an Indonesian. You insulted me, several times now, you even insulted my hair. You insulted Anita and Therry too, when we have never insulted you.
Oh, I bashed you? Well, for that matter, I’ve been bashing fundamentalists as well.
Who popped in here and making remarks first?
Confront me if you want to, and confront me directly. Don’t make ambiguous remarks.Say things straight forwardly on my face like how you do now.
You are obviously still holding a big grudge because you felt left out, but whose fault is that? You always acted as if the rest of us personal bloggers are beneath you, a niche blogger. You insulted foodie bloggers, bloggers who post lyrics, personal, married, mommy bloggers and god knows whatever else.
Lies. I never insult foodie bloggers, bloggers who post lyrics, personal bloggers, and mommy bloggers. I want proof to this accusation.
Married bloggers — they generally have personal blogs, so I assume you got it all mixed up. And what I mean by married bloggers, as I said:I did make a stupid judgment out of married bloggers, because I thought they all sound just like your friends.
please stop insulting us Marisa. We are a bunch of stupid people, bule shaggers, gossipy housewives that cannot take any more of your intellectual insults.
I never said you’re all stupid people.
Hey, I’m not even the real intellect in this situation, remember?
Lairedion is, therry is, and I seriously believe that you are as well. Grats.Golden rule: Don’t do to others what you don’t want others do to you.
Speak for yourself. Should I mention what you’ve been saying about the editor of a certain newspaper here, rimafauzi? Just because your article was rejected. And you went on interrogating me.
I’ve tried giving you advices on that matter, I’ve tried telling you: TRY AGAIN, but what do I know about journalism, right? I’m just a stupid, not-so-wise beginner myself. -
in several times you bash girls who marry white men
Though I’d hate to refer it as ‘bashing’ because I’m just a person defending myself, the incident occurred only one time, over at therry’s. Unspun happened to amplify whatever it is that happened that time. And this, as Rob mentioned, is merely a continuation.
Your friend, which is happened to be married to a Caucasian, is one of them. Never did know who you’re married to. And therry obviously isn’t married to a white man. You’re making an association based on one single abrupt comment I’ve posted on this topic.
Keep this going, rimafauzi. What you see is what your eyes want to believe.
From this, anyone could tell it’s you who are really obsessing over men. And I have absolutely no problem with that, as how Lairedion do, some people also prefer your blog for the same reason.Truly intellectual and wise adults such as you are aren’t exactly my niche anyways. I’m seeking for the virgin minds that still believe the deeper meaning of things in life. No matter how shallow and corrupt the society that surrounds them have been.
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Patrick says:
@Barry prima – And just like that you put us back on topic! Amen brother!
@ no one in particular – Is it me or is Marisa starting to sound like Shloka? Sudah cuckop!
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Patrick, Barry Prima has to learn typing, spelling, grammar, etc, then his comments will stay here for more than 5 mins….
…
Sudah cukup 🙂 , and yes I agree.
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peace says:
I think atheism only threatening religions existence, but not threaten the values inside religions, because atheism teaches logical knowledge, and sure it will include good deeds.
Moreover atheism will teach us how to be logical and move forward and leave the wrong fundamentally doctrines which exist in every religions.
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Hi Bapak Patung – Thank you and as you pointed shrewdly pointed out, Barry Prima is not the only one guilty of those mistakes. I am an awful speller and do cringe after I post but it’s too late at that juncture to do anything about it.
Sudah cukup! Lets all get back on topic. Thanks!
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barry prima says:
How would |Pak Syamsul feel if there are people who would like to eradicate islam?
The way he feels now. There are, there was and always will be..(people who want to eradicate Islam) why is communism such a dirty word in Indonesia in the same way as Nazism is in Germany?
Strikes me that you can’t see that, even when you spend a large part of your time on a forum, where this is the main point of contention! In fact, it occurs to me that this is exactly and precisely what your main argument is ie eradicate islam and all will be solved!
Atheism and secularist want to destroy Islam and vice versa, at least the Islamist don’t pretend to be other than what they are.I second Andy, I think atheism should be permitted in Indonesia, and when the majority are Atheists (or at least agnostics like myself) only then will the country be able to stand on its’ own feet and be a great country.
Two idiots agreeing with each either don’t make a wrong a right, although I suspect it makes them feel a whole lot better, in the words of suicidal tendencies.
What world do you live in????? Atheism is the panacea that solves all problems and religion is the source of all evils??
Atheism as an ideology or intellectual movement is arguably only a few hundred years old, in the mind of the masses it is arguably only 30/40 years old, even then it is only a marginal one.The materialistic achievements of the western world are based on colonialism and plunder and exploitation of what is now known as the third world. The superiority of western culture is only a couple of hundreds of years old, which in the is very marginal in the recorded history of the world. Muslims were the most advanced civilisation in europe for 700 years, which is longer than the current reign of western dominance.
It amazes me, that even so called educated people put such an absolute stake in the experience of reality as it is now,when it is only ephemeral. Even one hundred years it is conceivable that the axis of power will shift to Asia.
Besides the seeming success of western culture, is not based on atheism. The separation of church and state is calvinistic, lutheran (ie christian in origin) not atheistic.
The fruits of atheism or secularism haven’t even had time to ripen fully, but the devastating experience of communism and its eventual and total collapse and credibility is just a forewarner.
Religion has existed since the fall and will continue to do so, quite simply because it is better than any other system, because it is divinely ordained.
Religion articulates reality as it is, it is about finding equilibrium in the midst of chaos (see chaos theory) not some idealism based on human sentiment.Does this Syamsul clown not realise that terrorism and intolerance is the cause of his country’s undoing?
Islamic terrorism is an insignificant a factor in the overall social and political development of Indonesia as a nation. State terrorism, however is another matter. Indonesia has been undone from hundreds of years, by Dutch rule and then by Suhartos regime (avowedly anti Islamic). So much for Pak Aluangs Allusions to Kejawen glory, this man was Kejawen.
The emphasis on Islam as a major political force (even then it isn’t really) is a new thing in the history of Indonesia….it is only a few years old….blowing it out of proportion only exposes your own hatred of way of life that is different from yours, rather than exposing Islam, whatever that is.
A state which is neutral on religion and does not interfere with peoples beliefs or non-beliefs.
There is nothing in the universe that is neutral. IT IS EITHER IN AN active or passive state at any point.
Perhaps it’s better to make a difference between coercive atheism and organic atheism.
There both two sides of the same coin, same with fundamentalist islam and moderate islam (sufism). Disparate and integrationist, they assume a certain character in the face of pressure from the opposite.
Both Rima and Jabber hit the nail, it’s a free choice.
There’s no such thing as free choice. Well not for those who are not free. Hasn’t the cringe worthiness of such a cliché, occurred to you?
Surf gods Rock & Rule”
How about in your case :Surf Nazis must die…
Muslims kill for a religious ideology. That is they want to impose a caliphate from Africa to Asia. Anyone who stands in their way to their eyes will dies.
Some Muslims, in the same way some atheist wanted to impose their vision of Communism on others for their own good.
More accurately: Some people afraid of a way of life, that they don’t understand, nor make an attempt to understand, demonise it to such an extent that they then procure a license from the masses to destroy it, thereby mobilising a response from the attacked that becomes self fulfilling.You say you are not obsessed with white men or girls who marry white men, but in several times you bash girls who marry white men, even me
Perhaps she is obsessed with Indonesian men and women who are sleeping partners with white ideology, that is also a pet hate of mine. You leave Indonesia and then in the face of the white man’s deceptive and hollow cleverness take a disparaging and condescending tone towards your own people/ heritage (and Islam is your heritage). You are indeed traitors and ideological whores. You have right to reject Islam too but if you insult it, what do you expect?
Of course you should explore and accept your dual cultural identity, I certainly do, but do not patronise the people of faith with ridiculous and simplistic arguments as:and when the majority are Atheists (or at least agnostics like myself) only then will the country be able to stand on its’ own feet and be a great country.
You are at the same time discrediting the depth of both western and eastern cultures with such feebleness.
have never said i am an intellect
That is the only credible thing and objective analysis, not to mention intelligent statement you have made.
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barry prima, I’ve quick read your earlier post, and thank you for providing an insight on how:
Some things I don’t understand though from the comments, was wondering anyone could answer me: Communism and atheism and secularism are three different principles. Why must these three different paradigms be placed in the same context? How? And why must atheism relates to politics? How about in spiritual context?
Didn’t copypasted it, unfortunately. If I did, perhaps I could fix the spelling errors which you’ve possibly done intentionally.
To not loose one’s soul perhaps is the most understated yet most universal rhetoric in any discourse which human beliefs are debated against each other. Soul, spirituality, metaphysics of beings, and the key to the universe itself, where every person in the world is truly interconnecting and human language contains it. To loose one’s soul, is to loose such driving interconnectivity that enchants humans from days of the parting seas, burning bushes, and fountains that streams from the desert. Every definition that makes the ape, Homo Sapiens, as a human being.
Thanks again.
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Marisa, I am very much a soloist and assess the merit of what I post on this forum by the degree to which it alienates me from the rest of the posters.
However, I am willing to end my splendid isolationism, by admitting to being completely overwhelmed by the stark beauty of your statement:I’m seeking for the virgin minds that still believe the deeper meaning of things in life. No matter how shallow and corrupt the society that surrounds them have been.
It is the kind of statement that could single handedly make an ideological spiritual aspirant fall madly in love with a girl. Fortunately I have already met my Jodoh.
To all the pseudo Javanese on this forum, who continuously thrash their souls in their foolhardy attempts to put their minds up to par with the white mans deluded sense of cleverness, this I contest is true Javanese wisdom!
Peace:
yes there is.. there are Buddhist, Catholic, Islam, Hindu, etc and there is atheism as one of human’s faiths / beliefsFaith:ie Belief in a transcendental or ontological reality has the same basis of all Faiths. That is the root meaning of the word in Arabic ie Iman, Bhakti in Sanskrit, the character of Zhong in Chinese (centering of the heart).
This is the point of emphasis I assume Marisa is speaking from, not agama.
Faith in Traditional systems denotes an immersion with all ones being, not just an ideology that one conjured up with the mind. In fact that is not faith at all.
At the time of Khusf (unveiling) either at death or at a moment of crisis, the soul will overcome the mind and all the pretensions or mental conjectures it has devised to deny the truth within itself.
That is what the religious scriptures allude to when they say, as the quran does, that your own organs will testify against you, you will be your own judge. He who done an iota of good will see it then, and whoever does wrong only wrongs his own self.I think atheism is not denying God, they just don’t believe God in religion context, they believe in the Great Power, otherwise there will be no time and space in the universe
Somebody pass this man a dictionary….besides such an acdc stance is a complete cop out both ways. Time and space cannot and do not define/confine god either.
I see the point and genuine good intentions behind your logic but peace is preceded by war within oneself and against oneself. It does not come by putting a CND bumper sticker with the peace symbol on the back of ones VW beetle. You dig?
The path to love,is not subtle, but a complete devastation(Rumi)..
Ps: I am quite concerned about the fact that this is the second time I have casually quoted Rumi on this forum…but maybe its time the Muslims claimed him back from the new Agers.
Moreover atheism will teach us how to be logical and move forward and leave the wrong fundamentally doctrines which exist in every religions.
You need a lesson in basic history. Perhaps my vw beetle analogy will be lost on you as you are evidently not a westerner. Atheism will not take you to anywhere but the abyss.
”If you look into the abysss,the abyss will look into you”
Or as Chuang Tzu said ”if you look too much into the nature of things you become detached from them”Didn’t the west learn anything from its most famous Atheist Nietzsche and his degeneration into lunacy?
As my favourite anti Atheist saying goes:
`Nietzsche is dead, but god is still alive.’ -
@barry prima
You need a lesson in basic history.
Religions are basic history, just like long time ago when people think the earth is flat then changed to geocentric and then changed to heliocentric and so on until now. maybe we have achieve the right theory, or maybe not
Atheism will not take you to anywhere but the abyss.
Maybe your theory right if it applied on you, because you are not ready, and I understand. I realize that many people need simple explanation about all things, so they can live happy with the purpose given in religions, let alone the purposes are the most sacred and holiest ones. So religious people are attached to it and even willing to die to defend it. Because people without life purpose are the same as dead. But they forget that there are many other purposes out of the religion
Or maybe religion is just one of the simple basic human needs to become a part of something or have something to believe, so they can convince them-self that they are precious, they are exist, part of the biggest, etc.
If someone open his mind and leave his religion, then he will be in confusion, guilty for leaving God, he is alone, a sinner, unhappy, without purpose, etc (suppose this is the abyss you defined). This is why I think religion is still needed for people like you and for religious people whom have no morality which only act nice because of the promise of heaven and don’t act bad because hell’s threat, because they will be dangerous for society if they leave their religion.
Allow me to ask you to : if there is a God (in religion context), then whose religion is right? Since there are hundreds religions in the world.
And do people who embrace other religions is going to end in hell? (even that they haven’t be taught about THE religion)
Do you believe in dinosaurs, evolution, picantropus erectus, etc?
And by the way, yes. VW beetle analogy will be lost on me 😛 because I prefer Honda.
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Peace:
It is apparent we are talking on different levels of reality…you are arguing with me about the abc of religion when I am talking about the xyz.
I wont get into an argument with you as you are evidently not shloka, dewa or andy, whose pseudo intellectual rants against religion, especially islam, are a mask only for the most elementary form of prejudice and ignorance.Your kind of atheism is quite encouraging and part of the course. You are not even an atheist anyway, according to the definition of the word. You self defined atheism is mix and match, in the same way most people have a mix and match of religion, because they haven’t grasped the principles.
Of course you have to reject a false notion of god and religion before you can develop a true or truer one. It’s a matter of spiritual development. Even Sufis and mystics of other religions fall into the abyss, they just come back out on the other side, unlike the atheist who become attached to their aethism and cut themselves off from the grace of the true and living god.
Same as fanatics who become attached to their religion instead of Allah.
I have to say despite myself :peace (on your journey)
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lomboksurfer :
You need to lay off the bong spiccoli and get a reality check, after the laughter comes the tearz as they say.
Today’s surf gods are tomorrows bald, overweight has beens. Too much surf and you will soon be indistinguishable from a Javanese peasant who works the rice fields.
Even the world’s most handsome and talented surfer and actual, not self acclaimed Surf God, Kelly Slater could not escape 2 of these 3 cruel twists of fate, never mind a nobody like you.
Either you learn humility or the universe will not only humble but humiliate you. Don’t the woeful tales of love lost in Batam of yesterday’s Romeos, on the dating Indonesian girls post have any effect on you? -
barry prima said:
You have right to reject Islam too but if you insult it, what do you expect?
What makes Islam (and her desert sister religions) so special that it should be free from insults? Why must we “respect” this creator friend of yours who only exists in your own imagination? Why must we “respect” this desert religion click who in return has nothing but contempt for other thinkers and this is most evident in this statement of yours? Why must we “respect” your Rasulullah who cooked up this story in order to consolidate and extend his own power? And if we don’t respect this and are victim of retaliation what makes it acceptable for you to say: “Hey, it’s your own fault, I told you so.”
This whole God-idea is nothing but pure speculation based on fear and anxiety, a reason for humans to explain the unexplained and a tool to wield power of other people, also for our North Sumatran friend Syamsul here. Until today, nobody and I mean nobody, can scientifically prove the Old Man with the White Beard actually does exist. Middle Eastern fairy tale books and charismatic desert dwellers like Yesus and Mohamed are not to be considered reliable proofs.
My view is that we must critically look at the world and universe around us and not take anything for granted, except the fact that we only understand a fraction of this evolving reality and only the progress of science and development of human brains will uncover more and more mysteries.
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What makes Islam (and her desert sister religions) so special that it should be free from insults?
I exercise the right to insult it myself, very frequently..and as a consequence I accept the risk of being called an infidel by my brothers..it’s all good.
You don’t get it do you? You keep pushing me into this religous genie bottle that I escaped from a long time ago….it never could contain a free spirit like me.
When addressing my comments don’t do so by refering to a kind of Islam that I and a large section of the muslim community don’t believe in. By continuing to espouse an ignorant version of Islam, you do not shame me or my religion, only your self.Until today, nobody and I mean nobody, can scientifically prove the Old Man with the White Beard actually does exist.
He doesn’t….any intelligent muslim knows that….he is a metaphor, that is particularly useful to the human imagination which is a metaphor making mechanism (look that up in a scientific journal).
Scientific proof?
The proof is everywhere…you are here,heaven and hell is here..the universe is miraculous….how can you see when you are blind and don’t even want to acknowledge your blindness??except the fact that we only understand a fraction of this evolving reality ..
Your’e not completely clueless…that was quite an intelligent statement, now apply that to your understanding of religion.
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Your kind of atheism is quite encouraging and part of the course. You are not even an atheist anyway, according to the definition of the word. You self defined atheism is mix and match, in the same way most people have a mix and match of religion, because they haven’t grasped the principles.
Can you explain to me what is “mix and match” means?
Anyway, I believe that maybe (still not sure) there is God out there. And It haven’t reveal itself yet, until now. Maybe it still waits for the right moment to unveil. So let us all just be prepared for it.Barry, you haven’t answer my questions. Btw do you know that earth already has three times of Armageddons since it was formed (or created?) And it happens every 60-65 million years when our solar system move to a bit to outer side of milky way? which there are more big asteroids flying around fast and radiation which can make sudden froze, mutation, etc. So if the dinosaurs was killed by one of the causes 65 million years ago. It means that we have to spend our time wiser to overcome the catastrophe as soon as possible. Than taking care of unimportant things like unproved issues.
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janma says:
Ps: I am quite concerned about the fact that this is the second time I have casually quoted Rumi on this forum…but maybe its time the Muslims claimed him back from the new Agers.
why? so they can pass a fatwa and make his blood halal?
And on the subject of belief….
‘the first quality of an honest man is contempt for religion, which would have us afraid of the most natural thing in the world, which is death; and would have us hate the one beautiful thing in the world which is life. We should rather aspire to a heaven where only the planets live in eternal bliss receiving neither rewards nor condemnations, but enjoying merely their own eternal motion in the arms of the void.’ – Saint-Savin in Umberto Eco’s The Island of the Day Before.
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lomboksurfer says:
Hey Barry Prima dude cool your bleedin jets! I know it’s been awhile since I last f…n saw you mate and sorry about your 2 bloody sisters getting bleedin preggers and all! Is me mum still sending the bloody support money each month? Me mum must be the biggest bloody employer in this bleedin country. Bless her bloody heart! Love you mum!
As far as getting bleedin fat, bald and bllody overweight mate that will never ever f…n happen. My bloody plan is to go out young on some 20 m wave on bloody Hawaii’s fabled Nothe Shore! My bleedin motto comes from the American bikers and those crazy dudes say “Die young and leave a good looking bloody corpse”! Ha Ha Ha! Funny Barry dude you always looked like an f…n corpse with that yellowish brown skin and bleedin black teeth of yours. Be cool fool and remember surfer rule you all day long you bleedin serf dude! ha ha ha!
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Muslims were the most advanced civilisation in europe for 700 years, which is longer than the current reign of western dominance.
Those countries which are muslim were great in spite of Islam, not because of it. Iran (Persia) was a world leader in many things when Zoroastrianism was their official religion. Most proud Iranians would tell you that. But take a look at them now. In fact I would say it is because the muslim world concentrates so much on religion and less time on education that these countries have and continue to go down. Blaming the west is the usual cop out from those who can’t make it in the big wide world.
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Barry prima said:
I exercise the right to insult it myself, very frequently..and as a consequence I accept the risk of being called an infidel by my brothers..it’s all good.
A significant section finds this reason enough to kill people. Or is that another brand of Islam?
You don’t get it do you? You keep pushing me into this religous genie bottle that I escaped from a long time ago….it never could contain a free spirit like me.
When addressing my comments don’t do so by refering to a kind of Islam that I and a large section of the muslim community don’t believe in. By continuing to espouse an ignorant version of Islam, you do not shame me or my religion, only your self.I’m always eager to learn so what’s this kind of Islam you’re clinging on to?
He doesn’t….any intelligent muslim knows that….he is a metaphor, that is particularly useful to the human imagination which is a metaphor making mechanism (look that up in a scientific journal).
Didn’t know intelligent Muslims use the God-idea only as a metaphor. 🙂
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Lairedion said…
Didn’t know intelligent Muslims use the God-idea only as a metaphor. 🙂
what a hoot! I can just see them now, the ustad’s standing around discussing religious matters….. “yes well Allah (nudge nudge wink wink) the most merciful……”
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BTW heliocentric is not valid since sour solar system (Planets and the Sun) is moving around inside milky way galaxy. That is as far as we can get now, maybe milky way itself is moving, who knows, so where is God anyway? Up there? Well, up is down, down is up, up is everywhere. I don’t really care, I just want to do the best I can do with my life, Amen.
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OOT. Patung, one last time.
Received a message concerning some bloggers on this site, something about being backstabbed? Whoever sent it and reading this, I’d be better off avoiding this type of stuffs, so I’m not replying. But I do hope your problem works out just fine in the end.Thing is, I’m having too much problems with some people on this site. Can’t stand how they’re constantly making personal, ambiguous remarks and ending up OOT-ed every single thing I’m trying to discuss with others. Perhaps it was all intentional, but I do understand. It wouldn’t be wise for me to get too comfortable on this site, anyways.
After some people from this certain clique saying stuffs about me and manipulatively misinterpret every thing that I say, even making fitnah about things I never did, I realize it’s just a subtle request for me to get out from this site. They just don’t want me here, as simple as that. It’s not a matter of who’s right or wrong, because I’m not exactly trying to convince anyone that I’m right and they’re wrong. I just wish every debate would end with an agree-to-disagree type of notion, without biased subjectivity involved.
But no, of course not, I’m the one who has to admit the fact –being a childish and perhaps snobbish unintellectual person that I am– I’m not worthy of my right to voice an opinion and receive an objective response in return. Perhaps that there’s a certain cause that have triggered this, but I’m not sure what that is myself.
Anyways, fine. And yes, I’m not worthy of my right.
See ya, Indonesia Matters.
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Patung…
This is what I do not get. What messages and what backstabbing? I am guessing there is more to this story floating around behind the scenes.
I am disappointed that Marisa is pulling the plug. I think her contributions are worthy and passionate most of the time. She might not get me and the way I construct my arguments but I am all for an agree to disagree notion. However, this does not necessarily mean that I have to accept arguments like “this is my country,not yours” as an argument buster.
I don’t think any of my comments have called for her to be banned or kicked out, have they?
Patung, you have a problem? I am wondering whether your problem has anything to do with the little spat that Marisa and I ahve been having?
Marisa…
I guess I am not some people. I have made no personal remarks about you other than to say you have been patronizing towards me and towards others on IM. This is fairly tame in terms of some comments that pop up here. It is also a reflection of the sometimes dismissive way that you brush off others arguments.
I think you have been as guilty as anyone else on the personal and ambiguous (and sometimes not so ambiguous) comments, don’t you think? Wasn’t it you who said something about some commenters hairstyle.
When some engages you in critical debate on your argument then that is because they are trying to understand the justification of your positions and whether you can sustain them. You have the same opportunity here to challenge others in the same way.
The snobbish and unintellectual comments cannot be attributed to me. I confess to saying that some of your responses were childish and I maintain even now that they were.
No one said you were not worthy of voicing an opinion. To the contrary, just about everyone has said that you were worthy. More to the point is that when I challenged your arguments (other people can speak for themselves) you were dismissive of my arguments, resorted to personal attacks, alluded to some silly idea that I had betrayed my parents, my family, my ancestors, and presumably my country by marrying an Indonesian and having a child with my Indonesian wife. I wonder, is the above an objective response?
You want people to give you an objective response, then be objective in return.
If that is your opinion then you are entitled to it. I did not say that you could not have it or that you could not hold it. However, I think I have a right to call it childish.
Anyways, fine. And yes, I’m not worthy of my right.
Marisa, I am missing the post where someone said that you were not worthy of the right to express an opinion. I think the point, at least, from my perspective has been that everyone has a right to express their opinion. Yet, once they have then they must be prepared to defend it without resorting to personal attacks.
I, for one, would rather see you stay around. Your comments, although I do not necessarily agree with them all of the time (especially in the University ranking thread) does not mean that I disagree with everything written. You talk about agreeing to disagree, yet because people disagree with you, you are leaving the IM forum?
Seriously, good luck with whatever it is that you do.
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One last time with the OOT comment, because Patung said sudah cukup earlier. Patung hasn’t done anything. I voluntarily resigned.
I just can no longer find the reason why I should stay and survive any of this. I could, but for what? Nothing.
Rob, I don’t understand why you’re still pinpointing everything I’ve said while I’m the one who is willing to leave the room.
You want people to give you an objective response, then be objective in return.
Oh sure. Thanks for accusing me first for patronizing people and claiming that I know nothing about educated people, right in the middle of an argument regarding education and corruption. Thanks a lot.
Seriously, good luck with whatever it is that you do.
And you too. Cheers.
Okay, no more OOT replies.
Have fun being bullies, people! But hey, at least real intellectual ones. -
Marisa…
Maybe I did not say it clear enough.
There is no link between the patronizing comment and the educated people thing you seem to be caught up on. I have explained this multiple times. They are separate paragraphs and the comments are in fact separated by a line. I did not accuse you of not knowing anything about educated people. You misread what was written and you misunderstood the context and are claiming something that is not there. Your call, not mine!
No one is asking you to leave. You are doing this of your own free will. No one is bullying you. Besides you have been giving as a good as you have been getting.
I made arguments as to why you should stay. Yet, I am not going to beg you to stay. You want to leave you, then go for it.
Once again, your call!
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all good patrick…. I wasn’t in a good mood today anyway…. but I’ve since chilled…. this morning I was like…. “why is he picking on me! I’m a Carmody!” in a whining tone….