Atheist Threat
Oct 10th, 2008, in News, by Patung
Young atheists on the internet, and eradicating atheism and communism in Indonesia.
Governor of North Sumatra, Syamsul Arifin, said on 8th October at an occasion marking Pancasila Day that all elements of the nation must continually fight against and eradicate atheist beliefs among the people.
Atheism, which seeks to erase Pancasila and which once threatened the nation in the guise of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), and still does, has to be guarded against, particularly because it still finds support among sections of the poor.
Syamsul said children should be taught from primary school through to university to hate atheism, so that the creed could as far as possible be obliterated.
A 4th ‘T’ – Rakyat tidak ateis.
The butchery of the atheist-PKI backed murderers of the September 30 Movement of 1965 (G30S PKI) could not be allowed to happen again, he said, hence the need to struggle against atheism. beritasore
Young Internet Atheists
On the internet at least some Indonesians seem happy to declare themselves as unbelievers.
Running an “affiliation” search on the social network site Friendster.com for “atheist” brings up about 144 matches friendster.com, while “ateis” produces 185 odd results friendster.com, although more than a few seem to be claiming to be atheist as some kind of joke.
On the same site, created on January 23rd, 2007 is the “Atheist Indonesia” group friendster.com, with 76 members and a fairly active message board, and some of its members seem to be active in an Indonesian language Atheist Wikipedia. ateisindonesia.wikidot.com
1,311 Comments on “Atheist Threat”
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Odinius says:
Patrick said:
Ya that’s clever as you expect us to believe cold blooded reptiles living on the ground grew wings and learned to fly. Were they commiting suide jumping off cliffs and poof one developed wings and flew away??? ha ha ha! Try to follow some sort of logic if you can?
Have you ever seen a flying squirrel before, Patrick? They don’t actually fly, they use the skin linking their arms to their bodies to glide from one tree to another. This is widely considered to be a middle position in evolution from being land-based to full-on flight.
You can see the same thing among mammals and birds who occupy a middle position between being fully land-based and fully sea-based, like seals and penguins.
This is evolution, and it happens very slowly over hundreds of thousands, and even millions of years.
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ET says:
Arie Brand
Interesting statement by a theological commission headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XV.
This ‘neo-atheistic’ statement could well be the beginning of a shift from dualistic theism to a hylozoistic paradigm or at least to ’emergent evolutionism’.
From Wikipedia
Emergent evolution is the hypothesis that, in the course of evolution, some entirely new properties, such as life and consciousness, appear at certain critical points, usually because of an unpredictable rearrangement of the already existing entities. The concept has influenced the development of systems theory and complexity theory.
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Arie Brand says:
Odinius, I knew you would do your best to decipher my message – I also knew that you had claimed to know Dutch. So that was a nice little test for you.
In case people think I wrote something very terrible I will give the translation here. Lairedion asked me why I was always angry with you and I said:
“Lairedion I am often more irritated than angry. It’s my impression that Odinius is inclined to enter a discussion at a late stage and then acts as a sort of schoolmaster who is giving marks and is actually above the discussion. In my view this was quite clear in this case.
Also,
from the start I was not very pleased with his denigrating remarks about the Dutch administration in Indonesia (“bottom of the barrel” I add here) though it is my firm impression that he actually knows little about that – also his opinion is quite different from that of many pre-war (non-Dutch) foreign observers.I added as a teaser: Nice that we can gossip in our thieves’ language”
That was it.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt before,
No, you didn’t. In your very first reaction to one of my posts (that had to do with somebody else’s contribution) you called me a”troll” and when I asked you for your definition of that you really didn’t pull any punches. I thought you owed me an apology but apparently you thought otherwise. So we started off on a bad footing, so to say.
You habitually fail to listen to others. Maybe you just have trouble reading for comprehension
See there you are again – another one of those typical schoolmasterly remarks. “You habitually fail to listen to others” should be translated as : you do not appreciate my contributions to the extent they deserve.
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Oigal said:
Despite some of the issues and some very very unpleasant incidents, we need to be careful that we don’t think everyone in Indonesia is howling for blood.
Fact is, my religion (or lack of) generally elicit nothing more than good natured pity.
Are you scared that God will be “p*ssed” when you meet him type of thing. When the unspoken answer is obviously I am more concerned who has the bye in the football this weekend as it will affect my points spread at the TAB.
I think it’s important to recognize that the “very very unpleasant incidents” you refer to are almost always incited, planned and organized by specific people with specific goals. This isn’t just true of Indonesia, but pretty much everywhere. The same, unfortunately, is true of public displays of “interfaith solidarity” and such.
Everyday pluralism and everyday prejudice are much more like what you’re describing…casual, offhand and often intertwined in surprising ways.
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Patrick says:
“Flying bear kills two Canadians in freak accident”
The above is a headline from today’s Yahoo news. Flying squirells and now bears? This evolution thing is getting down-right dangerous!
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The above is a headline from today’s Yahoo news. Flying squirells and now bears? This evolution thing is getting down-right dangerous!
Nothing to do with evolution. They escaped from Monty Python’s Flying Circus. 🙂
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Odinius says “This is evolution, and it happens very slowly over hundreds of thousands, and even millions of years.”
Yes that statement of your’s raises a good question and that is what is the point of evolution when the earth is in a constant state of change? An example of this is humans living on the water and spending great deal of time in it but have yet to show any signs of evolutionary change such as gills or web feet or fingers. This is so despite a few centuries of living this way. One would expect the changes to take place in several generations as a couple of hundred-thousand years or millions of years may make such changes pointless. What would be your explanation for this?
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Thousands and millions Patrick not decades and centuries..Although if you want to see generational evolution then look no further than the flu virus. Unless of course that is just another sign of the ever merciful God thinking, Bugger I’m bored “hey lets kill kill a few more old people and children” …hey bingo..a new virus direct from the creator..
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@Oigal – you really didn’t answer the question as a virus does change rather quickly in reaction to current conditions. However, mammals do not so the question is why not?
As a separate issue if human beings followed God’s 10 commandments would diseases like HIV be infecting millions of people on earth now? Actually, your penchant is to blame God for all human ills and woes but in reality it is often mankind’s own bad choices that cause death and disease. On the flip side it is often through disease, natural disasters and even war where we witness great individual and group acts of human compassion and love for the victims. This happens on a daily basis and in every nation in disregard of Darwinism proclamation of survival of the fittest. Perhaps God has already given us all the knowledge and wisdom necessary to survive an imperfect world but we proceed forward through time at our own peril and with our extraordinary gift of free choice
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@ Patrick
Perhaps God has already given us all the knowledge and wisdom necessary to survive an imperfect world but we proceed forward through time at our own peril and with our extraordinary gift of free choice
As for God’s 10 commandments change the word ‘God’ with ‘experience’ and ‘common sense’ and you will get the the same results for knowledge and wisdom. During hundreds of thousands of years our ancestors were able to survive and even, maybe imperfectly, thrive. So the question is why did ‘God’ had to wait hundreds of thousands of years before he was so kind to give us his 10 commandments. Were the Neanderthalers and the first ‘homines sapientes’ not worth the trouble saving or were his commandments only meant for his ‘chosen’ people, the Israelites?
An example of this is humans living on the water and spending great deal of time in it but have yet to show any signs of evolutionary change such as gills or web feet or fingers.
Humans don’t live in or on the water but near the water. So there is no immediate need to adapt to this environment. All living beings have to adapt to changes in their environment. If not they become extinct. If ‘God’ had created all beings perfectly adapted to their environment no species would ever had gone extinct.
If there has been ‘creation’ the only reasonable thing to assume is that evolution has been allowed for and makes an integral part of it. -
Wow Thanks Patrick just when I think all the fun is gone..
No Patrick its no the same virus..its generational change (which means it takes generation upon generation) and no the world has not really changed that much for humans so there is no pressing imperative to change unlike virus whose world is in fact its host.Still moving on from foot stamping creationism..to the classics
As a separate issue if human beings followed God’s 10 commandments would diseases like HIV be infecting millions of people on earth now?
HIV is your God’s punishment then, she has a real nasty streak then, the child born with Aids because the errant father infected his doting wife is a pretty vile way to demand obedience. What ever happened to good ol pillars of salt and smiting (or is it smoting).
Yup nothing like the death and destruction of innocents to prove a merciful god
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ET said “…change the word ‘God’ with ‘experience’ and ‘common sense’ and you will get the same results for knowledge and wisdom. ” Oh really? It doesn’t seem that the world agrees with this judging by the many wars in progress, rioting in Greece over necessary monetary cuts and in Canada over a silly hockey outcome. I could go on about other acts of common sense from men who are allegedly supposed to have plenty of it like Arnold Schwartzenneger, Rep Wiener, and the head of the IMF. I think by now you are getting my point and that is left to our own devices and without God we fail miserably.
ET you said that no humans live on the water or in it and actually we already mentioned, on this thread, several tribes in the Philippines that do and have been doing so for several centuries. I do agree that wearing clothes, living in warm houses, using canoes etc., are examples of adaptations to one’s environment I just don’t get the point it is evolution at work? Explain that please…thanks 🙂 -
It doesn’t seem that the world agrees with this judging by the many wars in progress, rioting in Greece over necessary monetary cuts and in Canada over a silly hockey outcome. I could go on about other acts of common sense from men who are allegedly supposed to have plenty of it like Arnold Schwartzenneger, Rep Wiener, and the head of the IMF. I think by now you are getting my point and that is left to our own devices and without God
Yea we can be an ugly species Patrick, but seeing how a significant number of the wars and destruction currently (and previously) are in the name of God, perhaps we would be better off without him.
Difference between rioting in the streets because your hockey team lost or rioting in the streets because your Prophet or God/s have been insulted is what exactly?
Do we really need to list the horrific abuses placed on innocents by people claiming to maintain God’s laws?Of course, it’s mildly amusing that you should refer to the sexual misdemeanors of some, just wondering how that plays into the far more grossly evil of the Catholic Church and its history of sexual abuse. Tell me is the Church still taking the morally bankrupt position in declaring various regional places of worship bankrupt to avoid paying victims of abuse? In the litany of abuse Wiener could be considered a saint compared to those claiming religious purity. After all his activities were between consenting adults.
Sorry but the myth of religion providing some sole sort of moral compass just doesn’t hold up in real life.
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@Oigal – I make no apologies nor do I wish to defend those clergy who abuse their authority as priests and commit vile acts agains inncoent children. My thought on the matter has always been that these abusive clergy should be defrocked and subjected to criminal charges (excuse the expression) with God speed! You know even a little bit of light chases away many shadows 🙂
I beg to differ with your statement “Sorry but the myth of religion providing some sole sort of moral compass just doesn’t hold up in real life”. Totally disagree as the great majority of clergy are dedicated, compassionate, humble and wise in the ways of God. It has been said many times before and I will say it again “No other institution has done more good for the world in its entire history than the Catholic Church”. Will evil try to destroy the Church? The answer is yes but Christ said “And I say onto thee thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”.
P.s., For your information, its been reported that none of the woman that Weiner sent the photos of himself asked for them. It was entirely his idea to send them without asking and therefore there was no consent from the women.
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diego says:
Btw, Patrick, have you ever considered the possibility that the women… (gasp!)… lied?
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@Diego – I know that according to one of the woman, Rep. Weiner asked her to lie, and from following the news that Weiner is a liar. Anyway, Weiner never accussed any of the women of lying so why do you consider that a possibility? 🙂
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“No other institution has done more good for the world in its entire history than the Catholic Church”.
For the sake of brevity we shall let that one pass to the keeper, except to say again “is the Church still taking the morally bankrupt position in declaring various regional places of worship bankrupt to avoid paying victims of abuse?”
Not like the organization is scratching for a dollar.P.s., For your information, its been reported that none of the woman that Weiner sent the photos of himself asked for them. It was entirely his idea to send them without asking and therefore there was no consent from the women.
I find this whole issue such a nonsense and it shows the bizarre puritan mindset that runs just under the surface of the US group hive. Kind of scary really.
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BrotherMouzone says:
No other institution has done more good for the world in its entire history than the Catholic Church
Crickey, that’s a big statement.
Are you counting that in gross good done (schools started, hospitals built, poor fed), or nett good (i.e. with the evils of priest paedophilia, complicity in the holocaust, providing implicit support for terrorism, etc, etc subtracted).
Plus, what objective unit are you using to measure good? Lives saved or souls?
Weiner stepped down because he would have been disastrous to Obama’s re-election campaign. I couldn’t give two craps about a politician’s sexual behaviour (if you do care, you need to get out more); but the whole affair created a huge question mark over his intelligence and ability to assess risk; two pretty important aspects of being a successful leader.
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@Patrick
As a separate issue if human beings followed God’s 10 commandments would diseases like HIV be infecting millions of people on earth now?
I couldn’t agree more. Although, it’s worth pointing out that the biggest killer according to the WHO is hunger and malnutrition (with over 10 times the body count of HIV).
If only people would only have followed the sixth commandment; “Thou Shalt not be Poor” all of this could have been avoided eh, Paddy?
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Not to mention those pesky creatures buzzing around carrying malaria, dengue fever and those horrible little worms that relish taking residence in the eyeballs of children in the sub sahara regions. You have to wonder what commandment those folks missed or for that matter what was God thinking….seems a mite cruel and vindictive.
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@ Patrick
I do agree that wearing clothes, living in warm houses, using canoes etc., are examples of adaptations to one’s environment I just don’t get the point it is evolution at work? Explain that please…thanks
Why shoudn’t it be evolution at work? The mind is an extension of our biological make-up and as such also subject to evolution. This is why we have been able and still continue to explore, spread and survive in bizarre and hostile environments which were completely out of bounds for our ancestors. All this without the need for – provisionally – radical changes in physical and chemical characteristics. Who says evolution should be restricted to the biomolecular level? Adaptability is the key to survival and success is measured in numbers.
If a god would have been responsible for the creation of every species down to its smallest details, he/she has failed enormously considering the numbers of species already gone extinct because they lacked the capacity or couldn’t cope timely with environmental changes.I think by now you are getting my point and that is left to our own devices and without God we fail miserably.
I don’t think so. What you see as top-down design (god’s commandments without which we would fail) can also be explained as a bottom-up process by which experience and lessons-from-the-past are conveniently mystified, wrapped up in myth and ascribed to a higher power to satisfy the human need for phantasy.
Whether we will fail or not is up to us, god or no god, unless you still believe that tsunamis are a punishment for debauchery. -
@BrotherMouzone If only people would only have followed the sixth commandment; “Thou Shalt not be Poor” all of this could have been avoided eh, Paddy?
Here we go again blaming God! The question is why? God has given us enough resources to feed everyone on planet earth. This makes it a human problem that has a human solution.
Good means feed the poor, clothe the naked, give water to the thirsty. educate the uneducated, provide for the sick.
“I couldn’t give two craps about a politician’s sexual behaviour” If you two listened to the initial news reports most news outlets, including conservatives, did not think their was much to this story initially. It was only when Weiner began to answer questions in a manner that was rather lacking in conviction that the media here realized there was something more to this story and began to pursue Weiner. The main problem is that he lied to the media and the American public. This raised questions of whether he was fit to serve in Congress as many of the duties of a Congressman involved complex issues considered vital to National security. The fear generally is that such a person puts themselves in a postion to be blackmailed.
Oigal says “I find this whole issue such a nonsense and it shows the bizarre puritan mindset that runs just under the surface of the US group hive. Kind of scary really.”
Brother Mouzone says “I couldn’t give two craps about a politician’s sexual behaviour (if you do care, you need to get out more);
I find it rather hypocritical of you both that you have no interet in the sex life of a married politician but you both have plenty of interest in Catholic priests and their sexual encounters. It also points to a lack of any morality on both your parts if you cannot understand why almost the entire American public wanted Weiner to resign. Bad behavior is bad behavior whether it is by a Catholic clergy member or a politician.
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I think most people would agree there is a world of difference between the Wienier and a pedo priest Patrick.
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@Oigal – ha ha ha! Its not a comparison of which is the more evil of the two but the acknowledgment that they are both evil. Nice try though to explain your previous posts and they amounted to what most people would say are morally bankrupt statements 🙂
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@pat
Here we go again blaming God! The question is why? God has given us enough resources to feed everyone on planet earth
Erm…. Didn’t you just blame him for HIV when you implied that AIDS was a punishment for being gay, promiscuous, or haemophiliac in the 80’s?
So is he only responsible for some plagues like HIV, but not for others, like Malaria? Sounds a little inconsistent to me….
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Hi Patrick. I do enjoy your twists and turns. Firstly, I think our errant tweeter would be better classified as egoistical, ill advised or just plain dumb rather than evil particularly in the current climate of tea bag wowserism that is all too prevalent in the US these days.
As BM points out it was you who delivered the rather bold assertions of ‘fact’ about Disease as God’s Wrath (reminds me of the rather vile creature of the cloth in Australia who asserted that the people who were gunned downed in Port Arthur were being punished by God because it was a Sunday and they should have been in church) and the claim that church has done more good in the world than any other organisation in the history of the world (that on its own is worth a thread to itself). You seem to suggest that the boy tiddlers of the church are an isolated incident, yet the acceptance that declaring bankruptcy is an acceptable means to honour thy responsiblities. The indecent haste which the Church is pushing for sainthood for the previous Pope with his record of covering and protecting errant clergy demonstrates the church has yet to grasp the nettle so to speak.
However, its interesting that you make the claim that God has provided enough for all so none need be poor. Indeed, leaving aside who or how the bounty was provided there is certain amount of truth in that. It’s a shame you didn’t acknowledge the Church’s role throughout history to ensure that bounty remained in the hands of landed few. Or more recently its ongoing role ensuring literally millions of people are bound to poverty via its opposition to family planning and contraception.
I do acknowledge there have been many notable christians, muslims, atheists, etc in short humans, but lets not paint something that is not there.
Your selective use of facts to bolster your more bold assertions reminds me of the beer ad late last century ‘Beer keeps you alive in hot weather” the went on to say that in one of the British India Regiments over 50% of the abstainers had died the previous summer. Unfortunately, further investigation proved that there was only two abstainers in the Regiment and the one that died was eaten by a Bengal Tiger.
You need look no further than East Timor to see the church’s role in the spread of STD’s, HIV and poverty via its opposition to sensible economic family planning and the mostr basic contraception devices.
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@ Bro M – u said “Erm…. Didn’t you just blame him for HIV when you implied that AIDS was a punishment for being gay, promiscuous, or haemophiliac in the 80?s?”
Actuially Bro M, I didn’t blame God for any of this as I merely said it could have been prevented had people followed the ten commandments. The logic works like this, if your mom tells you not touch the hot stove because you will get burnt and you continue to do so, despite the numerous warnings, then is mom at fault when you burnt your hand or are you alone responsible?
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@ Bro M – u said “Erm…. Didn’t you just blame him for HIV when you implied that AIDS was a punishment for being gay, promiscuous, or hemophiliac in the 80?s?”
Actually Bro M, I didn’t blame God for any of this as I merely said it could have been prevented had people followed the ten commandments. The logic works like this, if your mom tells you not touch the hot stove because you will get burnt and you continue to do so, despite the numerous warnings, then is mom at fault when you burnt your hand or are you alone responsible?
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You still haven’t explained what commandment provides protection from Dengue Fever or SARS (pesky evolving virus that one) Patrick. Thou shall use Baygon?
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Arie said:
I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, but in light of this, I don’t really see any point anymore. You habitually fail to listen to others. Maybe you just have trouble reading for comprehension, but I suspect it’s something you do on purpose, so you can built your little men of straw and feel like you’ve accomplished something. What? I have no idea, and no longer care. Consider this the last time I respond to anything you write on here…I’ll save my energy for the people who want to have a dialogue, rather an a series of monologues.
…oh, and next time, if you want to have a “private” conversation about someone else, you might want to make sure they can’t read what you’ve written first.