FGM
Mar 3rd, 2008, in News, by PatungForeign efforts to eradicate female genital mutilation.
United Nations
On February 27th ten United Nations agencies pledged to engage in a renewed effort to eliminate female genital mutilation (FGM), or female circumcision, within a generation.
UN Deputy Secretary General Asha-Rose Migiro said:
If we can come together for a sustained push, female genital mutilation can vanish within a generation.
In Indonesia only the populist press seemed to take an interest in the story with a Surya headline screaming “The United Nations Bans Female Circumcision”: xinhuanet
MUI
Prof Dr Chuzaimah T Yanggo, the head of the Youth and Women’s section of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), said of the United Nations:
What do they think they’re doing, it’s not their business. Religion cannot be interfered with by men.
He She said the Health Department had already agreed with the MUI that there was a right way, and several wrong ways, to carry out “khitan”. The right way was to “open” the “upper part”, the clitoris, a little, by making a small cut, while the wrong ways involved cutting off the whole organ or making substantial cuts, and these were forbidden.
Chuzaimah said the UN was confused about circumcision because it heard stories from Africa, where the practice was more extreme.
Java
Meanwhile the East Java secretary of the MUI, Prof Dr Hj Istibjaroh, said female circumcision was neither required nor forbidden but:
In general it is done.
The purpose was to reduce the sex drive of women, he said, while the purpose of male circumcision was to increase sex drive.
He said among the women’s wing of the Nahdlatul Ulama, the Muslimat NU, female circumcision was something thought not worth debating.
Endang Sri of the Indonesian Midwives Association (Ikatan Bidan Indonesia (IBI)) in Surabaya, East Java, said however that the practice was not allowed.
When parents requested it the IBI simply performed a washing of the area. She said requests to have girls circumcised in Surabaya were rare these days, and came mainly from the northern part of the city, presumably from ethnic Madurese people. surya
446 Comments on “FGM”
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Why don’t we just make a demonstration on “Stop Genital Mutilation”? Big posters, pictures, etc. Including circumcision for men? I bet those FPI guys will throw stones to the participants 😀
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John says:
Riyoz has a point. Why are so many innocent men, women and children being butchered by their fellow Muslims all around the Muslim world. What is it about this religion that generates so much hatred and bigotry? Why is it that this religion is used to justify the rape and murder of female family members for perceived matters of honour, the marrying of little girls to illiterate elderly relatives, etc? Most religions have a barbaric past but most have become civilised and reflect a modern tolerant, educated and liberated society. What is holding Islam back?
On the specific subject of female genital mutilation, if God designed females why did she include an organ that needed to be mutilated? Did she change her mind when the job was done? Has God got a mutilated vagina? If so, who did the mutilating? I think we deserve to know.
I have just read the posting of Purba Negoro. I don’t know what has prompted her to write with so much anger. Maybe she has just had her vagina mutilated.
The thrust of her argument is that in her country little girls are mutilated to only a little degree. So that’s alright then. We can all relax now.
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Purba Negoro says:
Michael-
Time and place you lying piece of ignorant white trash.I live in Jakarta- anywhere is convenient. Let me know your blood type.
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shorty says:
there is some evidence that male circumcision can reduce the incidence and spread of std’s. if the owner of the penis is following the qran/bible then it’s immaterial – he was a virgin before he married, and faithful afterwards.
female circumcision has no health/medical benefits – quite the opposite.
let me ask those who support female circumcision….
if someone cut off or mutilated any part of your wife’s/daughter’s/girfriend’s body apart from her clitoris, what would you do?
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I know for a fact that while most Indonesian women are circumsized (sometimes without the consent of their parents, as I am a victim of such) not as badly as our african sisters, it is enough damage for her not to be able to enjoy sex in her adult life.
It has to stop, because a. we are not savages and b. the savages are not africans but the arabs who brought the whole female circumcision culture to indonesia in the first place by way of their religion. -
Shorty- I appreciate your argument.
The form of circumcision in Indonesia is termed- clitorodectomy- or better hoodectomy= the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood.It should NOT be confused with clitorodectomy- which is excision- removal- of the clitoris.
Hoodectomy: a very widespread and common day-procedure in the West.
It is usually performed for women with sexual dysfunction.
Commonly performed during a labiaplastyThis procedure allows the clitoris more movement and more sensation.
“Finally, Clitoral Unhooding (Hoodectomy), offers women new heightened sensation, arousal and increased personal satisfaction in their sex lives.”: – “with an 87.5% increase improvement sexual response from all patients.”http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/
-wikipedia: ” labaiplasty”
Summarily- there is a very convincing case for male and female hood or foreskin removal.
Maybe you should research how the Basra-based British troops are now getting themslves a new “American dick” for their wives back home- ie circumcised.
Europeans- especially French, Germans and Dutch have a cultural fear of circumcision- most probably due to the practice related to Judaism.
Truth- Europeans are scared little girly men afraid of a little cut. -
Shorty said “there is some evidence that male circumcision can reduce the incidence and spread of std’s.” The latest study, following 500 boys born in New Zealand, found that it does not. There have been many, many health claims about male genital cutting, and some about female genital cutting – not so many, but only because people weren’t looking so hard. They are all just excuses to justify the operations. You can reduce the incidence of ANY disease by cutting off the part where that disease may lurk, but where would it end?
There’s no point in blaming Muslims or anyone else for genital cutting. People of all religions and none do it, always for bad reasons. It has to stop.
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purba negoro..i have no problem with a consenting adult undergoing remedial or informed elective sexual surgery.
what i have a problem with is the surgical interference (be it symbolic or radical) with a young girl’s genitals for no medical reason.
‘hoodectomy’ is not a common practice in the west. lack of sexual satisfaction is usually caused by poor technique and male indifference to his partners pleasure..wham bang thank u mam…ring a bell?
re male circumcision and basra – probably more to do with the heat and the discomfort of sand under the foreskin – they’ll be sorry – the next conflict will be in tibet.
we can drag out all the statistics/clinical studies/surveys we want to support circumcision.
it’s being performed for socio/religious, not medical reasons.
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Purba Negoro,
female circumcision equals better sex sensation ? are you friggin kidding me? It’s torture, that’s what it is. you are obviously not a woman, if you were, maybe not one with her clit cut off.
you dont know what you’re talking about. several of my friends and i are unable to feel much sensation at all during sex. it’s like we are solely a machine for a man’s enjoyment, while we should and could not enjoy it, because of the bloody circumcision. and for what? to limit promiscuity? most of the girls i know who are in the same boat as i am (including myself) were promiscuous when younger. why? we were curious about what this ‘heavenly orgasmic’ sexperience was all about. but still, nothing. nada. zilch.
if it were up to me, nobody should even come near a baby’s clitoris let alone cut it. people who still practice it are savages, no matter what country they are from. -
Shloka says:
I am an Indian practising Hindu girl. Hindu women in India and Nepal, two places with majority Hindu populations are not circumcised.Nothing, repeat nothing is done on their genitals, nor was anything ever done in Hinduism’s 5000 year history.Nor are Hindu girls circumcised in Mauritius or Trinidad. Islam likes to blame all its Misogyny on others.
I would also like to add that, Female circumcision also happens in tiny pockets of India. Guess who do it? The Muslim Bohras.Islam took the veil from Persia and carried it all over the globe. Likewise, it took circumcision from Egypt(probably) and it happens in parts of Lebanon, Jordan, Iran and Iraq.
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Is there a sustainable medical argument to justify the need for female circumcision? If there is then let’s hear that!
What has been written here is that there are religious reasons for it! If I am not mistaken female circumcision is not specifically mentioned in the Qur’an is it? So, what is the religious justification? Isn’t the practice more cultural than religious?
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janma says:
Is there a sustainable medical argument to justify the need for female circumcision? If there is then let’s hear that!
sounds like chopping your head off to cure a headache.
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In the US, there is a special shaped tray with velcro straps to hold the (boy) baby down. Are these used for girls anywhere in Indonesia?
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Hugh- no- it is done at birth for females, 8 for males- however for my son- I specified he was circumcised at birth- because I felt the prevailing tradition was stupid.
Hugh who on earth are you to say someone elses’ cultural or religious practices should be stopped.
Are whites the self-appointed Grand Arbiters of Taste, Morality and Commonsense now are they?
For the Javanese I know- their daughters are merely pricked or scraped- in some instances where the genital is poorly formed- it is rectified via surgery by a qualified gynaecologist.
The pain of male circumcision lasts maybe one or two days maximum- mine was done in hospital by a urologist- no straps or anaethestic.
There is no evidence whatsoever that can demonstrate any widespread practice of removal of clitoris in Java.
Hearsay and anecdotes to the contrary are exceptionally rare exceptions to the rule- please see my above posts to substantiate this and you can also try wikipedia:
Please check the facts yourself rather than heed the hot air of the blustering bules:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision
Labiaplasty is common- my brother is an ob-gyn at RS Cipto Mangkusumo- he did his residency in Michigan and worked 10 years in the US.
Dr Adler, a very prominent cosmetic surgeon states he undertakes hundreds per year- not reflected in the statistics due to privacy concerns.It is mainly the British who have condescended and derided the labiaplasty procedure as yet another of the Colonial Americans fads.
But British and their dreadful teeth avoid mention in the Guardian and other such middle-class wank-pages.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty
Clitoral removal is a peasant practice, most likely undertaken by either some semi-literate village Imam or Ullama.
Who knows what the provincials do to each other- Irian for example is still known to have practicing cannibals and eaten Michael Rockerfeller.
Whatever the peasants do in their god foresaken mud-huts it can hardly be representative of “Islamic” or to hack at each other with bits of bamboo.
Clitoris removal was a common Western practice until the 1950’s for preventing girls from masturbating- but because whites did it- but somehow it’s acceptable and not worth mentioning in the debate?
Qoud era demonstratum ad oculus (adversus solem ne loquitor):
White commentators are condescendingly moral-superioristas yet remain blustering armchair activists and emotive hypocritical ignorami relying on their oft used “wisdom of repugnance” as argument.
Ex vera factae esse quam videri.
Personae Caucasii condemnant quod non intellegunt: reductio ad absurdum in vulgare extremis. Foci argumentum ad ignorantiam et populum vulgare est.Cura te Ipsum. Haud ignota loquor. Dixi.
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Purba Negoro’s message (like his/her earlier ones) pretty much refutes itself. (I don’t know what colour s/he is, nor s/he what colour I am, so what have “whites” got to do with anything? And I have to smile at someone who quotes extensively in [misspelt] Latin, while flailing around about “colonials”.)
To answer his/her question, “Hugh who on earth are you to say someone elses’ cultural or religious practices should be stopped[?]” I am a human being, like the babies and children who are held down or strapped down to have their genitals interfered with. The cultural and religious practices of their parents have to take second place to their human rights, as we (I hope) universally agree when considering cultural and religious practices that lead to the death of children. I argue that possession of the genitals you were born with is a human right, like the number of your fingers and toes and earlobes. Or does PN think parents should be allowed to change those too, if their culture or religion decrees it?
And if “it is done at birth for females” then it would certainly be practical to use the kind of tray I describe. Does anyone know the answer to my question?
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Are whites the self-appointed Grand Arbiters of Taste, Morality and Commonsense now are they?
No, actually the muslims are now the grand arbiters of morality…. so that just leaves us whites with taste and commonsense….
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Purba Negoro
You are wrong about female genital mutilation in Europe. Here it is illegal and punishable by imprisonment. The only occasion it occurs in my country is in the Muslim communities where it is still quite common, despite attempts by the authorities to stamp it out. The problem is magnified because many of these communities exist in ghettos where few of the family members speak English. This barbaric practice is, of course, supported by Muslim religious leaders, along with other undesirable practices such as honour killing, forced marriage, marriage to first cousins and restrictive dress codes for women.
However, with better education for immigrant communities and action by the police and women’s rights groups, there is hope for future generations of Muslim women and girls.
These benefits will come to your country also in the future with more education and a better understanding of women’s rights.
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Green, Hugh and Janma- Do you resort to personal attacks as you are resentful of my greater eloquence, education or socio-economic background?
Just because some of us were born high enough to not burden society provide for us due to our parents’ financial inability/ineptitude, is no excuse to allow ones’ emotions rule their reason and expose me to your class hatred.For shame. Envy is indeed one of the seven deadly sins. Allah and Christ forgives those who repent.
Misspellings-are hardly an indication of knowledge nor ability- I expected more from the Orang Belanda (in the sense of the probsocis monkey- as you recall named for its’ incessant irritating self-important honking) Moral Onanists of the West with their oft-professed open-mindedness about lysdexia.
Don’t you such lumpenproles decaying get sand between your labia if one of your dyslexic ilk are percieved ‘discriminated’ in school thus annoy all and sundry with your shrill indignant protestantions?
If “”genital mutilation” as it is so emotively labeled is illegal- why is elective cosmetic labiaplasty available on the public health care system in certain specific cases?
Aha- but there indeed is the essence of the moralists’ argument- argumentum ad populo
All of your assertions, thinly veiled bigotry at the least, I can rebut with fact.
Please- I seek an intellectual equal with whom to fence yet all I get are knaves.Let’s deconstruct your shoddy arguments.
You attempt to rebut fact and LOGIC with the emotive and non-rational. Specifically:
Argumentum ad populum- rebuttal via myth of the “wisdom of popular consensus
argumentum ad absurdum- subjective oversimplistc reduction of an argument due to ignorantium- ignorance of the rebuttal argument.Alas the non-rational argument fails to defeat fact and logic.
Honour killing, forced marriage, marriage to first cousins and restrictive dress codes for women are the sole domain of the peasantry of Turkey, Arabia, and Africa.
But in supposedly class unconscious West- class distinction is a such a Thoughtcrime and Guilthought that you delude yourselves by pretending these peasants and lumpenproles are of the same calibre as their countrymen of superior socio-economic demography.
Alas- again the Western Socialist Utopia wet-dream is shown to be an intellectually infantile diversion from harsh reality.
Summarily, these ‘Islamic’ behaviours- which are obviously cultural- like Female Genital Mutiliation- even the most atypical bule bigot via cursory examination see that it is pan-religous isnb these countries.
These are non-existent in Indonesia and you will find no substantiative documentary proof to the contrary. I stake my word as a noble upon it.Green- regarding your “argumentum ad ignorantum”- an argument from a place of ignorance- exmplifies your own bigotry and ignorance.
For shame- if I was a black- you’d be self-flagellating in an orgy of moralistic contrition. But as I obviously am the equal if not superior to a bule, I do not require his charity thus poor bule’s self-importance construct is burst.Do not offer us any of your ludicrous ‘wisdom’. The handicap of you and your Socialist drivel gives you right, moral or what, to impose it upon others, especially those far wiser than you.
You whites are but a pathetic shell of your grandfathers- a generation of real men- not the moralist-mincers of today with their ‘human rights’ brigadery and chicanery.I break wind upon you pathetically contemptuous bule weasels all.
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Sarah says:
To whom ever may have gone through that terrible event,
I’m deeply and greatfuly sorry to who ever has to go through such a painful thing such as female genital mutilation. I am currently doing a paper on it for my grade 12 english class. I can’t even begin to think how painful it must be; i cry every time i read some of the reasearch i come across. It’s just so terrible what these young girls have to suffer for. And for what? just because of a religion that thinks it would be best to see that young girls are “clean”. I’m sorrey but thats just rediculious, I hope i will get a good mark on my essay, so that i can prove to anyone that this is wrong and it should be stopped!
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Purba Negoro
Why do you get your knickers in such a twist? I can only assume that you have recently had your genitals mutilated. Is that your problem? Have you lost your clitoris?
You have my sympathies, poor lady.
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John, check out pb’s may 1 post
….The pain of male circumcision lasts maybe one or two days maximum- mine was done in hospital by a urologist- no straps or anaethestic……..
He’s no lady.
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PN said;
Green, Hugh and Janma- Do you resort to personal attacks as you are resentful of my greater eloquence, education or socio-economic background?
Just because some of us were born high enough to not burden society provide for us due to our parents’ financial inability/ineptitude, is no excuse to allow ones’ emotions rule their reason and expose me to your class hatred.I don’t remember personally attacking you…. I have no idea what your socio-economic background is and I also don’t see any evidence of your superior eloquence… eg…
Don’t you such lumpenproles decaying get sand between your labia if one of your dyslexic ilk are percieved ‘discriminated’ in school thus annoy all and sundry with your shrill indignant protestantions?
…..or education…..
Summarily, these ‘Islamic’ behaviours- which are obviously cultural- like Female Genital Mutiliation- even the most atypical bule bigot via cursory examination see that it is pan-religous isnb these countries.
These are non-existent in Indonesia and you will find no substantiative documentary proof to the contrary. I stake my word as a noble upon it.so you might want to readjust your view of yourself love….. as to us having class hatred…. you seem to have a fair share of it yourself? “I stake my word as a noble upon it.” and “jealous of my socio-economic background”…..
If “”genital mutilation” as it is so emotively labeled is illegal- why is elective cosmetic labiaplasty available on the public health care system in certain specific cases?
Duh….. because it’s elective surgery in the 2nd case, an informed choice by an adult for their own mutilation….. quite different wouldn’t you say to performing the procedure on an non-consenting infant or child.
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Female Genital Mutlilation IS 99.9% NON EXISTENT IN INDONESIA.
THIS IS DOCUMENTED FACT by UNWHO, US DEPT STATE, etc
Honour killing, forced marriage, marriage to first cousins and restrictive dress codes for women DOES NOT EXIST IN INDONESIA.
THIS IS DOCUMENTED FACT by UNDP, UNWHO, etc
INDONESIA IS A SECULAR NATIONALIST NATION.
SEXIST MIDDLE-EASTERN CULTURAL PRACTICES ARE NOT PRESENT IN INDONESiAINDONESIA ALLOWS
NO JILBAB/HIJAB
MARRY ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN CHOICE
CAN MARRY OUTSIDE HER CULTURE, ETHNICITY and RELIGION- (both parties must then convert to share a religion however- for future family stability)STOP SLANDERING INDONESIA with LIES.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Purba Negoro said
Personae Caucasii condemnant quod non intellegunt: reductio ad absurdum in vulgare extremis. Foci argumentum ad ignorantiam et populum vulgare est.
Cura te Ipsum. Haud ignota loquor. Dixi.
I heard this kind of pidgin Latin before. It was in the film ‘The Name of the Rose’ (starring Sean Connery) after the book written by Umberto Eco. It was spoken by some weird hunchback character called Salvatore di Varagine or something.
Any resemblance, Purba? I mean with the latter.
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Lairedion says:
Purba Negoro said:
INDONESIA IS A SECULAR NATIONALIST NATION.
If you can tell me where I can officially declare I do not follow a religion and this will be accepted by the Law and Constitution I’ll be more than happy to believe Indonesia is a secular nation.
And stop using capitals. It has the same impact and meaning of screaming, it looks so uncivilized, so un-Javanese.
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Cukurungan says:
If you can tell me where I can officially declare I do not follow a religion and this will be accepted by the Law and Constitution I’ll be more than happy to believe Indonesia is a secular nation.
Secular Nationalist Nation is not the same with Secular Nation because Nationalist in Indonesia context, it is imply that everything shall be in accordance with Pancasila and UUD-45 and everything against that we will destroy it to the root.
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Purba Negoro….. you son, are talking out your proverbial…..
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/crfgm/10102.htmThe University of Indonesia’s Women’s Research Graduate Program conducted this study in October 1998. It surveyed 200 mothers, 100 living in an urban community in Jakarta and 100 living in a rural area in West Java.
According to the study, of 100 mothers in the Kemayoran community in Jakarta, 97 percent of their female children had been circumcised. Trained midwives or physicians circumcised the baby girls using a blood lancet or sewing needle to prick the clitoris until bleeding occurred. However, some midwives merely wiped the clitoris with alcohol and bethadine. This procedure took place when the girl was 40 days to five years old.
The 100 mothers surveyed from the rural West Java community of Cijeruk said 100 percent of their female children had been circumcised. Traditional birth attendants (TBAs) performed the procedure using small scissors, a razor blade or even a small piece of sharpened bamboo. The TBAs cut a small piece of the prepuce (clitoral hood) or the clitoris itself until bleeding occurred. This procedure was performed when the baby was about 40 days old.
for sure in indonesia the practice is not as severe as in africa, but it definitely happens…. I have seen many many babies so cut.
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@Cuk
Oh yeah, that good old Pancasila. She seems to be terminally ill lately. If we let die the first sila and try to cure the other four silas she still can be of some use in Indonesia.
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Purifying Breeze says:
Ok, first of all, FGM is NOT an Islamic tradition, its not required. Why whould God, the One who loves us most require something so painful? And another thing I would like to add is that even if it did require it, it still shouldn’t be done. My opinion is that some things in religions are just really old fashioned, out of date, and inaccurate. Sometimes in islam women are seen as lower than men, that’s wrong even it happened at the time of Muhammad. That was a very long time ago. And besides all the religious books were written by men, just because they were inspired by God doesn’t mean that the men’s consciences weren’t there when they wrote it. They obviously will put things that they are used to, and they were used to discriminating women, it was normal. But its wrong. So as time changes people, religion should adjust somewhat for the better.
And for those of you who think that FGM reduces the odor in genital area, I dont know if it does because I am not circumcised and don’t know anyone who is and I wouldn’t compare anyway. But regardless, if it is true, so what. Let it smell worse, that’s nothing compared to the pain and suffering the women go through. And besides, nothing should be removed from you body unless it causes you pain. There is no reason whatsoever to remove or cut part of the genital are for any reason. And especially to reduce a female’s sex drive. That’s just completely wrong in every single way. Oh and by the way, just to respond to a previous comment, Islam isn’t against sex. Sex is a natural and human thing. Whoever said it, you’re obviously not very well informed of what Islam is.
And to that idiot that said “I just don’t understand why this subject is worth wasting the earth precious oxygen,” you are completely wrong. This is a crime, it’s physical, mental and sexual abuse and should not be tolerated anywhere in any form. It should very much be addressed and discussed. I think it was Murphy who said this.
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@Purba Negoro
Purba Negoro your the retard my friend and if you want to meet me in the flesh then ‘any time and any day’ I’m coming to Jakarta in June so I’ll gladly accommodate your request you fool!!!
My wife was circumcised in a similar manner as in Africa and I didn’t say method you fool! Her clitoris is completely cut off! This is just so unnecessary and unbelievable in this day and age! And all your quotes are just taken off the web your no genius my friend!!! Yes I’ve been circumcised but with you they have gone a step further and done it to your brain Purba Negoro!!! Hehehaha…just calm down and read my post carefully and also learn how to spell my name its not ‘Micheal’ it M_I_C_H_A_E_L!!! U FOOL!!!
@ Purba Negoro
An addendum to the above post and also to your brainless comments and that is….but Indonesians do practice what and the exact style of circumcision as they do in Africa!!! My wife is from central java and she was butchered the same way!!! May be not in the crude methods that they do it in Africa but never the less she was mutilated and butchered in the same way but who knows!!! So don’t get on this forum and give us all this bull sh*t about… According to a US governmental report on Female Genital Mutilation in Indonesia: 97/100 Kemayoran…and… IN West Java 100/100 claimed their female children had been circumcised….and… In Banten: “¦ it is largely a symbolic procedure. The practice is ceremonial, during which the clitoris of the baby…etc etc…
It’s ALL BARBARICK AND UNNECCESARY!!! I WAS CERCUMSICED AND I DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE!!! ISNT THAT CRUEL AS IT IS!!! And I’m not a Muslim or a Jew I’m a Christian….and to this day I object and I am really outraged for this sort of mutilation happening to me and to my wife!!! But as far as doing this to women for a religious purpose that is so primitive and so outrageous is just beyond me and beyond today’s mental thinking and common sense!!!
But religion is just that “A Very Crude and Out Dated Means Of…physically, emotionally and emphatically suck the venerable to a means of belonging to a group a sect a lifestyle a fanatical culture and believing in something that can and will be their lives….look at what happened to Germany under the Nazis & Hitler…look at what happened to the Communists and what happened under Stalin and I can go on forever with past examples in History…the best life for those who believe in their own abilities and the people that believe ‘IN THEM SELFS TO DO RIGHT TO THEIR FELLOW HUMANS IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGION, CREED OR SOCIAL STRUCTURES OR LEVELS!!! RELIGION IS THE BIGGEST POISION THAT EVA WAS BESTORED UPONUS!!!’