Women in Mosques
Sep 17th, 2007, in News, by PatungWomen are not allowed in the Sultan mosque in Ternate.
Women & Their Unholy Voices
While almost all mosques in Indonesia allow women to come inside and pray, although they have to sit behind the men, the Sultan mosque in Ternate, North Maluku (Maluku Utara, Malut) (map) is unique in forbidding women from entering.
Djafar, a local figure, explains:
Only men can pray in this mosque, women are not allowed. This is an old tradition and has never been broken.
The mosque’s cleric, Ridwan Dero, says the reason for the banning of women is to protect the holiness of the place:
If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.
There are no exceptions to the rule at any time.
Men & Their Holy Trousers
The men who come are required to wear long trousers – wearing of sarongs only is not sufficient – and they must also have the top of their heads covered by a kopiah or sorban.
Ridwan Dero explains that by wearing trousers the men show that they have truly prepared themselves to face God. Dero says that when men are standing up while praying, and wearing trousers, the position of their legs forms the words “lam alif“. Lam alif represents the two statements of the Muslim confession of faith, “there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet”. In this way men who wear trousers show in physical, visible form that they believe in the confession of faith.
Guards are on hand, perhaps similarly to those at the Baiturrahman mosque in Aceh, who advise men who arrive in only sarongs to go home and get changed, or just go to another mosque.
Similarly the wearing of headwear is required as a sign of respect to God. The guards have spare caps to lend to visitors should the latter have forgotten their head-wear. mediaindo
The Menara mosque in Semarang, Central Java, is another old mosque which does not allow women, although the reasons are not stated. It is used mainly by Indonesians of Arab descent. indosiar
219 Comments on “Women in Mosques”
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Hassan said
Wine might have certain benefits, but not every one can control their alcohol intake. Have you ever heard of drunk driving and how much people it had killed yearly?
Islam’s stance is clear, whatever causes more negative things than positives is haram and prohibited (while backed up by Quran and Hadith refference).The same can be said of plain food. Some people are not able to control their food intake, resulting in obesity which in turn causes degenerative diseases of the heart, arteries, and kidneys. Should food therefore be considered haram and prohibited?
Some people even use religious prescriptions as an excuse to commit atrocities. Have you ever heard of terrorism in the name of religion and how much people it had killed yearly? Should every religion therefore also be considered haram and prohibited?
When religion intrudes in every aspect of life common sense seems to get lost.About Faithfreedom.org, a website that contains testimonies of apostate Muslims Hassan said
I sincerely doubt that. My experience tells me that the site was largely patroned by:
A. Non-Muslims who likes to bash Islam and who will not hesitate to claim that they are Muslim apostates to make their arguments sounds credible. But upon closer inspection, it will be quite evident that they are not who they claim to be. Similar to Aluang tactics but more sophisticated and systematic.
B. Trolls who does not care about the truth or right and wrong, they’re just doing it for the fun of being able to insult and bash other people’s faith, and to make other people tick.
C. Zealots who believe that their faith is all good and others are nothing but pure evil.
So, which category do you think you belong, dewaratugedeanomA. You might have a point here. Muslim apostates aren’t supposed to live long enough to set up websites and tell their stories. (see also Al-Qur’an sura 4:89)
B. You are mistaken if you think I’m doing this for fun. Before I read Qur’an and hadith I, like many other people, believed that Islam meant peace. Now that my eyes are open I see its ugliness and danger. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
C. Any religion based on scriptures that
“¢ condone and even promote violence as an act of faith
“¢ abuse ignorant people’s fear and guilt to make them submit to a hypothetical personal god and by extension to him who claims to be his prophetis basically evil.
Christians believe that God created man in his own image, Buddhists believe that man’s destiny is to become a Buddha himself, Hindus state ‘You Are That’ meaning the soul and the Ultimate Reality are one”¦ all mayor religions try to elevate humanity to a level where the soul and the divine integrate.
Only Islam does not. Islam wants people to submit, to prostrate and be Allah’s slaves. And the rewards? Either an eternal orgy in the Gardens of Bliss or torment in Hell? Even a 3-year old child is skeptical about nonsense like this.
Isn’t it amazing what indoctrination can do to people’s minds? -
iamisaid says:
Quote,
“Either an eternal orgy in the Gardens of Bliss or ……….”
Unquote.dewaratugedeanom,
Perhaps I ought to convert to Islam just for the sake of the orgy.
It reminds me of the native Red Indians whose heaven was called “Happy Hunting Grounds”
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Korrill says:
@ Sputjam:
it seems humans have an innate need for ritual and worship. why? (I’m sure philosophers have asked these questions thousands of years ago, but I haven’t read enough yet.) There is a human need for religion, but maybe I’m not human?
One of the driving forces behind religion is the need to explain what seems inexplicable. In the times when science was at its infancy, there was a god for every event – Venus for Love, Zeus for Lightning, Muses for Inspiration, Ares for War, Poseidon for the Ocean, Hades for the Underworld, etc. India, if I’m not mistaken, is rumored to have no less than 3,000 gods (or is it 3,000,000?). As the knowledge of man grew and he became able to explain the mysteries of the earth, so did the number of gods dwindle.
The true character of humanity is not the need for religion. It is the need to know – to learn and expand his learning. It is our basic mechanism for survival.
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Sputjam says:
learning is encouraged, so that mankind appreciates God’s creation.
God has promised prosperity to those who have faith, so why is it that the most religiously inclined society are poverty stricken? because God did not ask mankind to embrace any religion, but to merely have faith in him and do good deeds of righteousness.
He is the Sustainer and does not require anything from mankind. Not even offerings or worship. But religion with their preist and scholars will tell you otherwise. God gives, we take and appreciate.Mohamed did not introduce the religion of islam to the arabs. Mohamed was trying to eradicate religion of the pagan arabs, who were idol worshippers. The arabs never did understand what he was transmitting. that is why, there are no ritual instructions in the koran.
Similarly Moses. He confronted pharoah, the chief priest of an ancient eqyptian religion. Moses did not declare that he was a priest. he merly informed the masses that to achieve peacefullnes, you merely serve God by doing the right things.
where did all these religion comes from? from dictators who are hell bent on trying to gain power and wealth by taxing the masses and forcing the masses to submit to their religion. No free speech in any religion, even christianity, where herectics were burnt alive at the stakes for daring to speak up.
you will feel free and blissful if you stop submitting to any religion, just as God mentioned. Have faith and trust in God in whatever you do. If He wills, you may be guided to the straight path. be patient and humble always. For God hates the arrogants.
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korrill said
The true character of humanity is not the need for religion. It is the need to know – to learn and expand his learning. It is our basic mechanism for survival.
But as long as science doesn’t provide all the answers, the questions stay. Maybe one day…?
Meanwhile Einstein said: “Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame”. -
Julita says:
Jlta: Thanks, Sylvester.
Sorry, it takes sometime to reply, I just sign a new contract so it is working time.
It is a long posting but kind a interesting and the following is very well stated, may we learn.Archbishop Fulton Sheen:
The readings to believe evil about others is in large part ammunition for thousand scandals in our own hearts but finding black spots in others, they believe they distract attention from their own miserable state. The good conscience, on the contrary, finds good in others even when there is some discontent with self.
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Interesting dialogue.
Jlta: Concerning the language origin of the Bible.
The many documents they collected along the ages and from so many sources and LANGUAGES.Korrill: Correction: Many documents, ONE language. The early manuscripts were all written in greek. What was different was the dogma each had.
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Jlta: My file says, original languages of the Bible could be Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. .Korrill: You should read more. Your data is not full.Original languages of the bible:
New Testament: Greek.
Old Testament: Aramaic and Hebrew.
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Jlta: “You should read more. Your data is not full” ( kind of an apology?)
Who is saying it?OLD TESTAMENT:
Mostly Hebrew during the thousand years of its composition.Around 300 BC Hebrew was translated into Greek, and it was completed around 200 BC.
Few chapters of Ezra and Daniel and one verse in Jeremiah were in Aramaic
NEW TESTAMENT:
Some Aramaic words were used.
The New Testament was written in Greek.The first human author to write down the biblical record was Moses. He was commanded by God to take on this task, for Exodus 34:27 records God’s words to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” And what language did he use? He wrote in his native language, called Hebrew.
Hebrew is one of a group of languages known as the Semitic languages which were spoken throughout that part of the world, then called Mesopotamia, located today mainly in Iraq. Their alphabet consisted of 22 letters, all consonants. (Imagine having an alphabet with no vowels! Much later they did add vowels.)Almost the entire Old Testament was written in Hebrew during the thousand years of its composition. But a few chapters in the prophecies of Ezra and Daniel and one verse in Jeremiah were written in a language called Aramaic. This language became very popular in the ancient world and actually displaced many other languages.
Aramaic even became the common language spoken in Israel in Jesus’ time, and it was likely the language He spoke day by day. Some Aramaic words were even used by the Gospel writers in the New Testament.
The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC.
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Korrill: Shepherd of Hermas, the gospel of Thomas were not. Get the picture?Jlta: Get the picture? (wow), looks like korrill is still concerned why the Shepherd of Hermas and the gospel of Thomas were not included in the Holy Bible. To me the Bible is correct, a good job, there were problem with the authorships and contents read the following.
Today I watch in the TV, the co-celebration of Mass of many denominations, from all over the world together, splendid! Otherwise, they could have been still fighting up to the present time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wki/First_Council_of_Nicaea#_note-29
[edit] Effect of the Council
The long-term effects of the Council of Nicaea were significant. For the first time, representatives of many of the bishops of the Church convened to agree on a doctrinal statement. Also for the first time, the Emperor played a role, by calling together the bishops under his authority, and using the power of the state to give the Council’s orders effect.
In the short-term, however, the council did not completely solve the problems it was convened to discuss and a period of conflict and upheaval continued for some time. Constantine himself was succeeded by two Arian Emperors in the Eastern Empire: his son, Constantine II and Valens. Valens could not resolve the outstanding ecclesiatical issues, and unsuccessfully confronted St. Basil over the Nicene Creed.[33] Pagan powers within the Empire sought to maintain and at times re-establish Paganism into the seat of Emperor (see Arbogast and Julian the Apostate). Arians and the Meletians soon regained nearly all of the rights they had lost, and consequently, Arianism continued to spread and to cause division in the Church during the remainder of the fourth century. Almost immediately, Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian bishop and cousin to Constantine I, used his influence at court to sway Constantine’s favor from the orthodox Nicene bishops to the Arians. Eustathius of Antioch was deposed and exiled in 330. Athanasius, who had succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria, was deposed by the First Synod of Tyre in 335 and Marcellus of Ancyra followed him in 336. Arius himself returned to Constantinople to be readmitted into the Church, but died shortly before he could be received. Constantine died the next year, after finally receiving baptism from Arian Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedi , and “with his passing the first round in the battle after the Council of Nicaea was ended.”[34]
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There is no such thing as a “lost book” of the Bible with special secrets for the wise. Even from a non-supernatural perspective, if the Bible that we have read for the past 2,000 years reflects the beliefs of original Christianity, then any texts that were originally rejected, discarded or “lost” are not books of the Christian Bible
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/gospel-of-st.thomas.htmGospel of St. Thomas – What Is It?
The “Gospel of St. Thomas” is a collection of teachings that some attribute to Jesus of Nazareth. Portions of Greek versions of the text were found at Oxyrhynchus, Egypt in the late 1800’s. A complete version in Coptic (an Egyptian language derived from the Greek alphabet) was found at Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945. The complete text has been dated to about 340 AD, while some of the Greek fragments have been dated as far back as 140 AD.Gospel of St. Thomas – Who Wrote It?
Scholars aren’t sure who wrote the Gospel of St. Thomas. The first lines of the text refer to
“didymos Judas thomas” as the author. The word “didymos” is Greek for twin and the word “thomas” is Aramaic for twin. It appears the author’s name was Judas, and his nickname was “the twin” (set forth in two languages). The canonical Gospels of the Holy Bible mention a man named Thomas, who John called “didymos thomas.” There are also several people named Judas mentioned in the New Testament other than the well-known Judas Iscariot. There is no mention of a Judas in the New Testament who was also nicknamed Thomas, “the twin.”Gospel of St. Thomas – Why isn’t it in the Bible?
The Gospel of St. Thomas is considered “Gnostic” in origin and viewpoint by many fundamental Christians, and is possibly the reason why the book was kept from the original canon of the Holy Bible (if the text was even known by early Christian followers at all). Generally, Gnostics hold that salvation of the soul comes from a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of secret formulae indicative of that knowledge. Since Christians view the Bible as a supernaturally-inspired collection of God’s word to humans, which is totally integrated in thought and doctrine, there is no such thing as a “lost book” of the Bible with special secrets for the wise. Even from a non-supernatural perspective, if the Bible that we have read for the past 2,000 years reflects the beliefs of original Christianity, then any texts that were originally rejected, discarded or “lost” are not books of the Christian Bible, by definition. A church that adds the Gospel of St. Thomas to its scriptures would move outside the simple lines of fundamental Christianity, and we know of no established denomination that has any notion of doing so… nor should they.
Learn More Now!
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/gospel-of-st.thomas.htmShepherd of Hermas
The authorship is found in no writer of any name. It occurs only in two places: a poem falsely ascribed to Tertullian, and a fragment published by Muratori, on the Canon, the authorship of which is unknown, and the original language of which is still a matter of dispute.20 The fragment says, “The Pastor was written very lately in our times, in the city of Rome, by Hermas, while Bishop Pius, his brother, sat in the chair of the Church of the city of Rome.”
A third opinion has had advocates in modern times. The Shepherd of Hermas is regarded as a fiction, and the person Hermas, who is the principal character, is, according to this opinion, merely the invention of the fiction-writer.Whatever opinion critics may have in regard to the authorship, there can be but assigned to its composition is the reign of Hadrian, or of Antoninus Pius.
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Jlta: Catholic dogma in regard to Jesus. .
Jesus is God
“And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” wrote St. John (1:14). So, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity assumed human nature. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Divine Word of whom John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word; the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).He Became Man
“In the fulness of time, God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Gal 4:4). In order to become a member of the human race in the fullest sense, the Second Person of the Trinity became man by being born of a human woman, Mary. He was conceived by her without the help of a human father, but rather, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, the God-man Jesus Christ had only God as His Father, and the Virgin Mary as Mother.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/incaal.htm
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Jlta: Judas comiited suicide by hanging himself on a tree.Korrill: (P.S. You should look up how Judas died. I never knew a man could die more than once.)
Jlta: Read the following.
The first passage reports that Judas hanged himself, the latter concludes that the betrayer of Jesus fell and “burst asunder in the midst.” Which of these is correct? Did Judas Iscariot hang himself, or did he die as a result of a fall? Through careful consideration of Scripture (Isaiah 28:10), one might see that both accounts could be correct.
Immediately following the account of Judas’s death in Matthew 27, Jesus Christ is tried for the last time. Pontius Pilate allows the Son of God to be delivered into the hands of wicked men and crucified. Jesus bore the cross to Golgotha, and there He hung for six agonizing hours, suspended between Heaven and earth. Jesus cried with a loud voice, and yielded His spirit to His Father. As the last breath escaped the lips of the precious Son of God, “. . .the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom, and the Earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose” (Matthew 27:51-52).The exact time between verse 5 and verses 51 and 52 is not known, but approximately six to nine hours had elapsed. It was during this time that Judas hanged himself. The Bible relates that when Jesus died, there was an earthquake so mighty that rocks were broken and graves were opened. One may assuredly presume that an earthquake strong enough to rend a rock might also be powerful enough to break a rope or cord, specifically the rope from which Judas was hanging. Consequently, it follows, that while Judas did in fact hang himself, the cord from which he was suspended, broke, and he fell headlong, burst asunder, and his bowels gushed out.
While the supposed contradictions mentioned here represent only two of the plethora of attacks imposed on the Holy Bible, one can see that many things that appear to our finite minds as discrepancies are merely a lack of understanding on our part. The Bible commands us to seek wisdom and understanding; however, when worldly learning contradicts the Word, we must as the Apostle Paul declares, “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ” Philippians 3:8.
http://www.learnthe bible.org/judas_death.htm
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Hassan: While we are talking about the subject of Christianity and the Nicene Council. I’ll just post it up here for convenience, I hope it can add some missing pieces of information on your studies. I’m sorry if they are somewhat biased in light of my own religious background, but all of us are truth seekers, aren’t we?Jlta: Thanks for your thoughtfulness. “Hassan: I’m sorry if they are somewhat biased in light of my own religious background” — Good for your.
We are seeking the truth. It is said that we judge the “Truth” by it’s fruits. We definitely can see in today’s world the good fruit. We see love in action of the church all over the world.
Hassan: Here’s the excerpt:
The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the holiday. “It’s just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow”Jlta: Hassan, why the efforts to point your finger. All the paganism according to Christian thrashers, if they are true, very minor indeed, Christmas light, tree etc. etc.
Hassan, do check on the Kaaba. I respect your believe and be it.The Kaaba is the holiest place in Islam.[1] The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba. It is around the Kaaba that ritual circumambulation is performed by Muslims during the Hajj (pilgrimage) season as well as during the Umrah (lesser pilgrimage).[1
There are some sources which say that there were multiple such “Ka’ba” sanctuaries in Saudi Arabia at one time, but this is the only that was built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts to the Black Stone. There was a “red stone”, the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the “white stone” in the Ka’ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca).
According to Karen Armstrong, in her book Islam: A Short History, the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols which probably represented the days of the year.[14] According to the Boston Globe, the Kaaba was a shrine for the Daughters of God (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) and Hubal.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaabaSputjam: Hassan, you can forget about trying to convince julita conderning her faith. She is just as resolute about her religion as you are to your religion.
Jlta: Very true Sputjam, at least you get it. The difference is I never start pointing fingers but have fun replying (if I get the time).
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Sorry again folks, it is a long posting, I hope we do get something from it.
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“Jlta: Very true Sputjam, at least you get it. The difference is I never start pointing fingers but have fun replying (if I get the time).”
Jita,
You call that fun? I mean replying so lengthily that it could have girth the earth from point and back.
I give you credit for that kind of determination.
Honestly, I tried reading it all but surrendered after the fourth paragraph.
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Hassan says:
dewaratugedeanom:
The same can be said of plain food. Some people are not able to control their food intake, resulting in obesity which in turn causes degenerative diseases of the heart, arteries, and kidneys. Should food therefore be considered haram and prohibited?
If you want to be childish about it, so does water. People who drank too much water can suffer from nausea and vomiting, and then an uncontrollable desire to pee will ensue. Perhaps water is haram too? 😀
Anom, food does not results in addiction like alcohol does. There’s no such thing as a foodaholic, not in a bad sense anyway. People who likes to eat too much does not have to take classes such as those Anti Alcohol Addiction classes. Catch my drift?
But you are correct up to a point, there are several form of haram regarding food and drink in Islam, sometimes eating food while it is halal by nature but if they can do harm to you, than those kind of food (or habit) is haram. Example: deliberately eating sugar in large quantities for diabetic people or eating high cholesterol food for people with extremely high blood pressure when they KNEW that it can be dangerous for them, is actually haram! I mean do they want to commit suicide? That’s just common sense and logical, right?
“¢ condone and even promote violence as an act of faith
“¢ abuse ignorant people’s fear and guilt to make them submit to a hypothetical personal god and by extension to him who claims to be his prophetA. Islam does not condone baseless and unreasonable violence, Islam call such behavior as “zalim” or roughly translated as “transgression”. While acts of retaliation is allowed as it constitutes justice. If you want to condemn such an eye for an eye arrangement then you must also condemn Judaism and Christianity, as such ruling is also prescribed in their Holy Scriptures (except Paulus changed it in the Christian version). Don’t mention al Qaeda in this argument because no one condoned their actions but themselves.
B. If Allah SWT wanted to make humans embrace Islam out of fear, He can simply punish the non Muslims like He did to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or people on Noah’s time, and always save the Muslim ones. Then trust me, people will flock to embrace Islam, trembling with fear. But He chose not to. And guilt? You mean like the ‘original sin’ kind of guilt?
Only Islam does not. Islam wants people to submit, to prostrate and be Allah’s slaves. And the rewards? Either an eternal orgy in the Gardens of Bliss or torment in Hell?
Is that all you know about Islam? Then how can you comment on things you have very little knowledge about in front of everyone? Reminds me of the saying “Tong kosong nyaring bunyinya“.
I’ll enlighten you on the topic of Islamic philosophy on some other time, if time permits and if Allah’s wills it. On the mean time, why don’t you google the keyword “Islamic philosophy”. Anom, if you’re going to bash other people’s faith, at least you should do your homework first. Don’t embarrass yourself.
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@ Dear Julita:
Jlta: “You should read more. Your data is not full” ( kind of an apology?)
Who is saying it?Just to clarify: I was telling you that the information you had was not complete and that you should find more references. The info you posted was only partial. And whatever gave you the idea I was apologizing?
Around 300 BC Hebrew was translated into Greek, and it was completed around 200 BC.
Wasn’t that what I just said? Unfortunately, as I also said, the translation of Hebrew into Greek (the Septuagint) made more than a few blunders in terms of translations.
Here’s a little dilemma: If Moses wrote the firts five books of the Old Testament – how did he write about his own death at Pisgah?
wow), looks like korrill is still concerned why the Shepherd of Hermas and the gospel of Thomas were not included in the Holy Bible.
You’re still missing the point. THAT was the actual argument itself about the council of Nicea – the editing of the Bible. The choosing of what doctrines or scriptures to include in the official canon.
Today I watch in the TV, the co-celebration of Mass of many denominations, from all over the world together, splendid! Otherwise, they could have been still fighting up to the present time.
Nice picture. But it still does not remove the fact that orthodox christianity exterminated all opposition in order to bring it about – pagans AND un-orthodox christians.
There is no such thing as a “lost book” of the Bible with special secrets for the wise. Even from a non-supernatural perspective, if the Bible that we have read for the past 2,000 years reflects the beliefs of original Christianity, then any texts that were originally rejected, discarded or “lost” are not books of the Christian Bible
I did not say there were lost books. I said there were books that were not included because they contradicted the agreed upon dogma. And they really are not books of the Bible because someone said they should not be included in the bible. And the “bible we have read for the past 2000 years” does not reflect the beliefs of original christianity – only that of orthodox christianity.
You also posted reasons why the books were not accepted. Tell me: WHO GAVE THOSE REASONS? Was it God? or was it the leaders of the church in trying to justify their decision?
The Bible relates that when Jesus died, there was an earthquake so mighty that rocks were broken and graves were opened. One may assuredly presume that an earthquake strong enough to rend a rock might also be powerful enough to break a rope or cord, specifically the rope from which Judas was hanging.
Julita, you should really start to think for yourself and stop listening to all those christian crap. Use your brain!
A: Earthquakes break rocks and structures because they are brittle. A rope is not. In the event of an earthquake, anythig hanging from a rope would only swing or jiggle. The only way that rope would break due to an earthquake is if that tree was swinging across five to ten feet.
B: How high do you think you have to drop a human body in order for it to burst open and the cause the bowels (i.e. intestines, liver, spleen, etc.) to spill out due to impact? Here’s a clue: Five storeys only breaks the bone and maybe the skull. Here’s another clue: Skydivers have been victims of parachute malfunction and – are you ready for this – some of them survive with only broken bones.
And don’t tell me that Judas’s body burst open due to decomposition. Six to nine hours is hardly enough time for the body to complete rigor mortis – let alone enter decomposition.
Here’s a challenge: Try jumping down a tree of roughly the same height as from where Judas fell from when his “rope broke”. If your bowels spill out due to the impact, I’ll enter the seminary!
The Bible commands us to seek wisdom and understanding; however, when worldly learning contradicts the Word, we must as the Apostle Paul declares, “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ” Philippians 3:8.
In other words, be smart but if you happen to start seeing errors in what we taught you, stay dumb. Great advice! Just like the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola: “WE SHOULD BE DISPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT WHAT APPEARS TO US TO BE WHITE IS REALLY BLACK, IF THE HEIRARCHY OF THE CHURCH SO DECIDES.”
We definitely can see in today’s world the good fruit.
But that’s not because of the church but because of the common man who started to see things differently than the way the church told him it should look like.
And about pagan holidays: Christianity took over the pagan holidays as a means to convert people. You may say it is not important but I still say that is another reflection of how the church lied and changed its statements in order to convert the people. (Also because people preferred the so called pagan holidays to the official holidays chosen by the church.)
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Hassan
Is that all you know about Islam? Then how can you comment on things you have very little knowledge about in front of everyone? Reminds me of the saying “Tong kosong nyaring bunyinya”.
Except for the fact that you are a believer and I am not, what makes you think you know more about Islam than I do? Besides quoting pepatah and a patronizing attitude what are your credentials?
In my former post I told you that I had a neutral stance on Islam until I started studying Qur’an and Hadith. Since then and in the light of what happens in reality I consider it my duty to warn people of Islam’s inherent dangers. FYI, I also studied Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism, not to become a theologician, but to investigate psychological and sociological effects of different ideologies. -
Dewa said :-
In my former post I told you that I had a neutral stance on Islam until I started studying Qur’an and Hadith. Since then and in the light of what happens in reality I consider it my duty to warn people of Islam’s inherent dangers. FYI, I also studied Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism, not to become a theologician, but to investigate psychological and sociological effects of different ideologies.God guides those who seek the straight path. It seems to me that you do not believe in God. God says that we will be brought up to life after our death to face judgement. bringing all of us up to live again willl be easy for God. After all, we were nothing before our present life. atheist will say, bring proof of god, but God says, bring proof of non-existance of God as his proof are in the creations of the heavens and the earth and everything in between, and the holy scriptures in the original form.
Some of us, who read the scriptures will not be able to undrstand the true meanings, looking for secret/hidden messages whilst the true meaningful phrases were ignored.
God gave us all a mind to think rationally. for those who are irrational and follow the masses without giving a second thought, they will fall into the religion trap.
The holy scriptures did not invite us to any religion. Its messages were to have faith in God and to always be righteous and avoid evil. You can communicate with God in any language, facing any direction, anywhere on earth, at anytime.
For Hassan :-
There are no holy places for submitters (muslims) whether in mecca/ medina or jerusalem. If God gives an instruction, it should be universally applicable. the 5 daily prayers and fasting could not be applied on certain parts of this planet, never mind outer space. Only man could have invented such rituals as they have no understanding on how the universe works. -
iamisaid:You call that fun? I mean replying so lengthily that it could have girth the earth from point and back.
I give you credit for that kind of determination.
Honestly, I tried reading it all but surrendered after the fourth paragraph.
Jlta: I am just like you, I don’t read long postings especially when it is not directed to me. My last piston I guess. There are two sides to everything. My postings were mostly clarifying the one sided talking about past mistakes which everybody contribute. To me, why not go on make a better, brighter future for all, no exeption, all religion, all nations and all races in the world.
Hopefully we’ll meet again in Spring. Thanks to you Patung, and accept my apology when in doing my part have offended anybody.korrill: I did read your posting. Make not mistake I am not referring my posting only to you but also to my fellow believers and mosot of them have references, meaning not my BRAIN and not my words. Rough indeed!
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Andrew says:
Julita:
Its worth noting though that Islam is hardly alone in this, as other religions without a central papal-like figure also struggle with hateful intolerant versions of their religion, in particular protestant Christianity (see the likes of Jerry Falwell and co).
So your religion is the most correct one, eh? I see, the only problem in yours seem to be related to millions of priests molesting children LOL.
Why would you need the so called pope to stand between you and God? can’t you talk to God directly? not confident enough? the pope role is a carry-over from the medieval age whose only purpose was (and still is) to retain the church’s power.
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Jlta: Meaning I am not the expert, I have my own talent/profession and all of us when talking about the past read it from other writers. I think it is not wise to keep going back in time. Indonesia does not need it, again we have to remember “Bersatu Teguh Bercerai Runtuh” keep the “Pancasila”.
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Andrew, for me it is. Peace!
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Its worth noting though that Islam is hardly alone in this, as other religions without a central papal-like figure also struggle with hateful intolerant versions of their religion, in particular protestant Christianity (see the likes of Jerry Falwell and co).
Hi Andrew, sorry, is it from one of my copy and paste? No, I won’t critize neither moslems nor protestants unless they started, to me we are all God’s children.
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No, I won’t critize neither moslems nor protestants unless they started, to me we are all God’s children.
Neither will I.
If we all just realize that responding to someone’s post might offend other bystanders. -
As you did Andrew, you several times critized my church and I did answer to you too. You started, not me.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Janma,
Friend, you speak wise words. But I think that we should get to pick on the kaffir at all times, because as the Koran says, God is All Wise and Merciful.
Parvita,
Friend,
It’s more of a spiritual pollution than a materialistic one. I thought you would have learned more humility as the Jongos of the Geophysicist, but obviously I am mistaken.
Friend,
It’s clear why woman shouldn’t be allowed in the mosque: she will distract us.
Thank Friend.
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Jlta: Andrew, wait a minute, I did apologize, but I do want to know. When and where I posted the quote you put on October 2, 2007. I want to know why. Thanks!
One more thing in this kind of discussion, especially religion, do remember, nobody can cater to all, so there is always somebody who agree and disagree.
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Don’t worry about it, Julita.
To answer your question, you posted it on September 18th, 2007 at 9:17 am (page #2)
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korrill: I did read your posting. Make not mistake I am not referring my posting only to you but also to my fellow believers and mosot of them have references, meaning not my BRAIN and not my words. Rough indeed!
Indeed they were not. They were indeed not from your brain and not your words. And that is the greatest mistake you have ever committed.
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dewaratugedeanom:
Except for the fact that you are a believer and I am not, what makes you think you know more about Islam than I do? Besides quoting pepatah and a patronizing attitude what are your credentials?
What made me think that you have a very shallow understanding about Islam? Well for one thing, the fact that you can grasp the basic philosophies on enlightenment
for other religions, but in the case of Islam you can only come up with these?Only Islam does not. Islam wants people to submit, to prostrate and be Allah’s slaves. And the rewards? Either an eternal orgy in the Gardens of Bliss or torment in Hell?
You mentioned that you’ve been studying various religions, but your conclusion on Islam doesn’t sound like a learned person’s deduction, it sounded like the deduction of someone who had been hanging around Islam-bashing websites too much.
FYI, there’s no such things as “orgy in the Gardens of Bliss” in the Qur’an or any honest Islamic resources, perhaps you haven’t been studying on a scholarly basis? Are you sure you haven’t been digging information from those anti-Islamic websites/sources with their distinct propaganda which you apparently had replicated successfully in your sentiments? Be honest, now.
Or perhaps, you haven’t been as neutral as you claimed to be? Are you certain that there’s no sentiment in your heart that wanted to prove (show) that the religion of those heathen Javanese is evil and inferior to the faith of the infallible Balinese? 😉
You wanted to know how I came to those conclusions? Well, there are distinct telltale indications that can determine a person’s real intentions on their conviction of certain matters, and your intentions doesn’t really seem to beam with honesty. An honest religious researcher can’t possibly conclude that all other religion is good, but single out a certain one and call it nothing but pure evil. Even professional bigots wouldn’t use such approach that will obviously expose their true intention for all to see. I suggest a little more discretion and elegance on your part, anom. 🙂
BTW, have you researched the topic of “Islamic philosophy” that I suggested? Perhaps it will shed some light in your future ‘studies’, so next time you wouldn’t make the same embarrassing conclusion that Islamic enlightenment is all about being a slave and “orgy in the Gardens of Bliss”. Embarrassing for a scholar of your caliber that is.. 😉
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korrill: Indeed they were not. They were indeed not from your brain and not your words. And that is the greatest mistake you have ever committed.
Jlta: Because I don’t fabricate and just say anything as one wish, I have compassion, am considerate to others, I believe that others have their right to believe, I don’t dictate, I am not imposting my opinion on others, and don’t call others names. It is not in my religion.
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Andrew: Don’t worry about it, Julita.
To answer your question, you posted it on September 18th, 2007 at 9:17 am (page #2)
Jlta: I quoted it from Djoko’s posting, I agreed with what he mentioned which is with the Holy Father being there, the faithful know whom to listen, which teaching to follow, and he united his people together. Take care.
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@ Julita: Jlta: Because I don’t fabricate and just say anything as one wish, I have compassion, am considerate to others, I believe that others have their right to believe, I don’t dictate, I am not imposting my opinion on others, and don’t call others names. It is not in my religion.
Tell me, what statement did I make that you saw as fabricated? There is a difference between us as I see it, Julita: I am neutral whereas you are biased. I looked at ALL data from ALL sides. You looked only at those that are favorable to yours.
Furthermore, I analyze all that I see. I do not accept any given statement without verifying or contemplating on their claims. You don’t. And that is your greatest mistake.
Did I force you to believe in me or did I just present new FACTS for you to consider? Did I say people had no right to believe? You actually know my position in this since you questioned my posting in Rhoma Irama. Your definition of being compassionate and considerate is to just shut-up in the face of other people’s faith. My definition of being compassionate and considerate is to show people the truth of their faith in all its different aspects – to give them all possible facts so they may have a broader choice of the path they may take.
The only reason I can think of why you would say I force others to believe is if my posting have caused you to have doubts about your faith.
And I never called you names. I just told you to use your brain. That is not an insult. That is an advice. And as for name calling not being in your religion – what do you call the act of labelling people as PAGANS, HERETICS, IDOLATERS, or WITCHES?
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Julita:
It is said that we judge the “Truth” by it’s fruits. We definitely can see in today’s world the good fruit. We see love in action of the church all over the world.
Did you mean the medieval Church and their ‘holy’ crusades, or the American Church and the choirboys? I’m sorry if that sounded rather harsh Julita, but you have to start realizing that there are bad people on every religion. For example, Christianity and the Church is not as ‘clean’ and holy as you might think, and Muslims haven’t always been as violent as we appear to be these days.
Julita, I think you’re a bit naive on your view of religion, that’s probably harmless but the problem is most things in life are never the way they seems to be. I think mutual understanding and acceptance is necessary, we must understand that “we” are not always holy and flawless and “you” are not always evil and wrong.
Hassan, do check on the Kaaba. I respect your believe and be it.
Thank you. But I think your understanding about the topic of Ka’ba and indeed your wikipedia quotation is rather incorrect.
There are some sources which say that there were multiple such “Ka’ba” sanctuaries in Saudi Arabia at one time, but this is the only that was built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts to the Black Stone. There was a “red stone”, the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the “white stone” in the Ka’ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca).
According to Karen Armstrong, in her book Islam: A Short History, the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols which probably represented the days of the year. According to the Boston Globe, the Kaaba was a shrine for the Daughters of God (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) and Hubal.The above passages that you quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba are actually found under the heading of “Before Islam”. Those pre-Islamic beliefs are removed completely, Muhammad (pbuh) even personally destroyed the 360 idols in the Ka’ba. Unlike Christianity who continue the pagan traditions (which I had mentioned before), so there’s actually no comparison.
Perhaps you also thought Muslims believed that the Ka’ba is a physical house of Allah SWT where Allah SWT actually resides and live there 🙂
FYI, I respect your faith too, Julita. I was just trying to convey some things that I have in mind regarding some pagan practices that Christians have oddly continue practicing till this day.
Sputjam:
Hassan, you can forget about trying to convince julita conderning her faith. She is just as resolute about her religion as you are to your religion.
I am not trying to convert anyone, Sputjam. Only Allah SWT can convert anyone into a particular religion, I thought you knew that. I was just having a religious discussion with a person from a different faith.
BTW, I have been wanting to ask this question Sputjam, instead of following that ‘prophet’ of yours Aidid Safar’s personal interpretation of the Qur’an, why don’t you simply learn Arabic and then make your own interpretations. Then you can post them on your website (Sputjam.com sounds nice) so that you can follow those more comfortable interpretations instead.
I hope you can understand the irony behind my previous statement that if everyone can make their own interpretations on the Qur’an and change the wordings according to their own whims (like what Aidid Safar had done), then what will Islam be like? Sputjam, there’s no guarantee that whatever Mr. Safar had interpreted is the correct path, while the majority of Muslims disagrees with his interpretations and most importantly, Allah SWT did not give the guarantee of the authenticity of his brand of Qur’anic interpretation. How about if Mr. Safar is actually wrong in his new invention and bogus interpretation? You can’t sue him on Judgment Day, Sputjam.
Bottom line is, Aidid Safar had no authority whatsoever to claim that his interpretation is the correct one, no authority was given to him by the world’s Muslims and certainly not by Allah SWT. Should we follow such a person?
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You are the man hassan!
aidid merely confirms my subconcious feeling on the religion of islam. before that, I was merely following what the other “brothers” were doing.
I am a believer in the existance of God.
God is the sustainer. This was repeated many times in the koran. (He does not require any sustenance from us either in the form of worship or offerings)
Those who believe, you will be judged by your deeds alone. ( Also repeated many countless times). koran did not mention that you will be judged by the number of times you worship, nor the number of pious children you bear, nor the amount of money you donated building msoque.)Did God call you to embrace a religion or merely to believe in God and do good and righteous deeds?
Did God give any authority for imams to speak on His behalf? Was there any mention in the koran that imams be selected? No. Instead there was a warning regarding priests and monks in the koran.The present muslim religion is similar to the religion of Pharoah, whereby i is headed by a priest/imams or monk.
The stories regarding Adam/Moses/Abraham/Jesus/Soloman and other prophets never mentioned any of them performing the Haj/5 daily prayers/fasting/asking people for zakat (taxes).I do not need aidid safar to tell me the present people who had embrace the religion of islam had indeed abandoned God’s guidance.
All you have to do is witness the terawih prayers performed live in Mecca on selected TV networks and see the thousand of people disregarding God’s message of idol worship.During the Haj season, it is even worse. You get to see people kissing the insignificant stone embedded in the kaabah as if the stone is something that is cherished.
The only reason why there are many converts to islam was because after reading the koran, the felt their beleif in God rekindled. But unfortunately for many of them, they did not let the koran guide them, but instead let people of the islamic religion to lead them astray, into idolatory, the biggest sin imaginable.
Comment on “Women in Mosques”.
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Everyone has his/her own good point.
Daniel and Julita are faithful Christians
I believe Sputjam, Korril and Hassan are good men, apart from what they believe.
For me, religion is like a tool. It is the way to create a good mankind. In a wrong hand, it will be corrupted.
Don’t forget, football can also be considered as a religion as well, he he.