Sharia Application
Aug 22nd, 2007, in News, by PatungSharia can be applied without making Indonesia an Islamic state.
Fuad Amsyari of the Crescent Star Party, Partai Bulan Bintang (PBB), said in Jakarta on 21st August that the basic form of the state, Pancasila, did not need to be changed in order that sharia be applied. Instead, every law that was made could incorporate Islamic law.
It was a mistake to think that sharia application depended on an Islamic state, he said, and there was nothing in Pancasila that prevented sharia law from being applied in Indonesia. Every government policy and law could employ sharia, he said, and no discrimination against non-Muslims would occur.
There will be no discrimination because in Islam there can be no discrimination.
Another PBB leader, Sahar L. Hassan, agreed that sharia could be adopted without altering the constitution, and hoped that it could be applied at the level of the state, however, someone convicted of theft in an area for which the state was responsible would not suffer hand amputation, but in ordinary theft cases hand amputation would occur.
Meanwhile, in the interests of the further application of sharia law, the PBB is inviting clerics from throughout the country and well-known figures such as Muhammadiyah leader Din Syamsuddin, NU leader Hasyim Muzadi, Majelis Ulama Indonesia leader Ma’ruf Amin, Siddiq Amin of Persatuan Islam (Persis), and representatives of Dewan Dakwah, Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, Dewan Masjid Indonesia, Ikatan Wanita Muslimat Indonesia, and the Badan Komunikasi Pemuda Remaja Masjid Indonesia (BKPRMI), to attend a meeting in Bogor, 24-26th August.
During this meeting it is hoped that ways to apply sharia in all aspects of life can be discussed, as well as the means of bringing this about, and specific proposals that can be put to the government and parliament. republika
246 Comments on “Sharia Application”
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Hassan says:
Sylvester: You haven’t answered my previous question:
Please read my previous post about the ‘Christian and his church-going obligation’ analogy to give you a clearer view about the dilemma Indonesian Muslims are in. Would you forfeit you religious duties for the sake of other people’s interest, or would you do it anyway to receive your Lord’s blessing even if other people wouldn’t like you for doing it?
As for your assessment of Sharia, here’s a few mistakes I can find:
1. It does not treat men & women in equal
Let me ask you, are men and women exactly the same? Do they function in the same way? In Islam, rights and obligation are not determined by ‘flat’ justice, but more in the proportionate way, as men and women have different needs, and functions quite differently. Islam believe men are women are complementary, and have different rights and obligations.
Try this link to verify my words, look under the heading of ‘Women’: http://thetruereligion.org/ebooks/e-wydkai_v1.pdf
2. It is anti non moslem/other religions
No, in fact it teaches tolerance. Quran 109-6 “You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.”
BTW, did you realize that while some may claim that it’s Islam/Muslims which hates other religion, the facts says otherwise. In Indonesiamatters.com or perhaps in Indonesia in general, the fact is it’s the non-Muslims like you who were rude and likes to spread hatred towards Islam. The pot who called the kettle black, eh?
3. It allows to kill non-moslem/infidels
No. Muslims can only kill non-Muslims who’s waging war against them, or against Islam. That makes sense as we shouldn’t lay down and die in the face of the enemy, right?
4. It is an eye for an eye concept, revenge is encouraged
First of all, wasn’t the eye for an eye concept was also mentioned in Torah and The Old Testament? I don’t know why Christian changed them in the New Testament, but the old Sacred Texts specifically addressed this issue.
Secondly, revenge is not encouraged, forgiveness is. Read the following verse as proof:
Quran 5-45: “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself….”5. It is hypocrite
That statement is a highly subjective matter of opinion. For me, the concept of trinity is hypocritical. One but three, three but one? But that’s an entirely different story altogether.
Also, is sharia from islamic god or just a fabrication of radical political hypocrite imam?
No, Sharia is an Islamic law based on the interpretation of the Quran and Hadith by Muslim scholars and religious leaders. I mean, it’s not like the angels are going to do it for us 😀
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Hassan, I like your posts. In response to one of your last comments to Sylvester, you said:
First of all, wasn’t the eye for an eye concept was also mentioned in Torah and The Old Testament? I don’t know why Christian changed them in the New Testament, but the old Sacred Texts specifically addressed this issue.
I’d just like to add my comment to that in response.
The Christian didn’t change them. As Christian, we believe that the gospel quoted the words of Christ. This was said in context of Christ’s message of forgiveness and mercy. It instructs us to forgive others for whatever wrong they do to us if we want to be forgiven by God – no exception. We don’t deserve God’s forgiveness, but He gives it to us. So we should do this also to people who do wrong to us.
I think that you will like the scriptures where this is said. I don’t believe that you need to be Christian to benefit from this way of living:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect therefore, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Matius 5:38-38
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Just a quick note on my previous post. The scripture that I quoted was the lifestyle modelled by Tuhan Yesus. It doesn’t take much effort to notice that most people who call themselves Christian to not live that kind of life. We see this every day where people claim to be Christian but are perpetrators of violence, lies, and hatred. They do that contrary to the command of Christ to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves.
This is why I am cautious when categorising someone as Christian or Muslim just because of their title. Doesn’t the word Muslim mean “someone who submits to God”? And the word Christian means “someone who follows Christ”? If that’s the case, then people should think twice to ask themselves “am I really submitting to God?” or “am I really following Christ?” before they claim these labels. Some people do so much damage to their faith by claiming the title and living a life that is contrary.
anyway, just my thought. we’re all growing in this knowledge.
Grace and Peace.
Daniel.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Dear mas Hassan, re your posting to Sylvester #1. It does not treat men & women in equal, in brief. It is similar to Quran 109-6 “You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.”
Of course the Quran treats men and women equal. Equal means Muslim men empathize with Muslim women’s low IQ. Women should be covered up and can be beaten if naughty, can’t drive, can’t held high offices because by doing so, they will neglect the families. They have to be herded like sheeps. Chinese and Indian government will bear the wrath of Allah swt soon as the top position in their finance ministries are held by women. Western countries also let women held prime ministerial positions like Italy and New Zealand. These people don’t follow the divine book and think they know better than Allah Subhana Wata’ala. Allah knows best.
Of course the Quran says ‘unto you your religion, unto me my religion’, but they are dirty and called name like ‘kaffirs’. We will show them the right path but if they still refuse to see the truth, we can’t control what the Muslim mobs will do to them.
Salam.
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Sputjam says:
This discussion on who is correct and who is wrong has no end until mankind decides to abandon religion.
religion are for the pharoahs and his followers, and the pagan Arabs before Mohamed.
prophets were sent to inform mankind that embracing a religion is a big sin.
If you look at the stories of the prophets in the koran, none of them performed any rituals whatsoever. If they need to communicate with God, they just do it, anywhere, anytime, in any direction.
Why is mankind so attached to religion? Why the story on Moses says it all, when the children of israel performed rituals before a statue of a heifer.
Moses did not preach any religion to the children of israel. merely to beleieve in God and do good deeds.
Abraham was s sincere monotheist. His father and its community performed rituals and worshipped/serve the sun and the moon. Abraham ditched the whole scam and served the Creator by doing good deeds of righteousness. the Arabs will tell you that he built the kaabah, but that was a blatant lie. the Arabs never received any prophets before Mohamed. And according to the koran, abraham had one wife which bored him two children when the couple was old. Abraham did not have a mistress by the name of sarah.
Abandoning religion is something all pagans and idol worshippers do not understand.
true followers of God must confront (not fight) and engage (not kill) the idol worshippers in order that they be salvaged.
Unfortunately for Mohamed, his message became a killing verse and his followers became pagans, despite the warnings in the koran. -
Sylvester says:
Ha ha, thanks Daniel.
Hassan, we are talking different religions. Hard to compare.No. Muslims can only kill non-Muslims who’s waging war against them, or against Islam. That makes sense as we shouldn’t lay down and die in the face of the enemy, right?
In Buddhism and Christianity, it is wrong to kill any human for any case. Although for self defence. That is why if Christians are forced to kill, they have to ask for forgiveness from GOD. Where in islam, it is justified to kill for a certain case. So I see, islam is not black and white with regard to killing, it is negotiable.
Sharia is hypocrite refers to the acts of pharisee & saduki imams in Bible. It is only a harsh rule but without essence. Applying sharia won’t bring anything good. See afghanistan during taliban or saudi Arabia where thousands of TKW are being treated badly.
Sharia is anti non-moslem, because it forces other religion to follow some parts of it. Your religion, my religion? That never happen in moslem country, everybody knows. No freedom of thinking, dressing has to follow moslem style, no freedom of expression, everything decided by imams. This will happend if indo turns to islamic state.
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Julita says:
Jokoboyo Says: how come the pope was never ever an Arab (knowing there are good Christian living in Arab as minority), african, asian or latin american (hispanic) race? Why the pope has been always elected within Italy, Germany, Poland white-man? For the past thousands years? After all Christian is a universal religion?
POPES OF LEBANESE PHOENICIAN AND EASTERN ORIGIN
The Catholic Center of Information.
His Holiness Pope Anicitus (155-166 )
John V (685-686)
Saint Sergius I (687-701)
His Holiness Pope Sisinius (708)
His Holiness Pope Constantine I (708-715)
His Holiness the Pope Gregorius III (731-741)Just as Emperors with Lebanese origins ruled the wide Roman Empire in its glory and majesty, so the historians tell us that religious leaders with Lebanese and Phoenician lineage occupied the highest ranks in the Catholic Church, and have assumed the highest responsability in the Church – The Holy See. They have ruled the universal church from the Vatican.
Historians have spoken of the first Pope from the Middle East: Anicitus, who lived in the second century. Five others in the seventh and eight centuries.
The following are three Cardinal Bishop( Highest Cardinal) of the nine and where they are from:
H.E. Francis Card. ARINZE from Nigeria
H.E. Bernardin Card. GANTIN from Benin
H.E. Alexandre Card. DO NASCIMENTO from Angola
Carndinal Priest in total 184 as of June 27, 2007 from all over the world.
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It has always been a mystery to me how men feel themselves honoured by the humilitation of their fellow beings. (Bishop Fulton Sheen)Jesus said:”If I want him to live until I come, what is that to you?”
Yes, what is that to you whether the pope has white or colored skin? What is that to you that the pope wears his gorgeous habit and the Dalai Lama wears an orange sari? Kind a shallow. Knowing very well the excellent content/quality of a book and yet you rather discuss the unnecessary issue, the cover of the book. I will get back in time.
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Daniel: I don’t pray to Mary or any other human that has died.
The soul will live forever. Death is the end of earthly life. When your souls leaves your body in death, you will leave everything behind – your body, your money, your friends, your television, your computer, your clothes. When you die your soul appears immediately before God.
“Come, ye blessed of my father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34)
In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him “they shall reign for ever and ever.( Rev 22.:5; Mt. 25:21)
Jlta: I understand, though that is very sad and could be necessary. In quietness, I ponder/pray, the goodness of our Lord. I thank Him for my family, sisters, brothers, parents who cared for me. After they passed away, it does not mean that my heart and mind stop loving them and vice versa ,love prevail, in heaven love and caring does not stop. In quietness, I still say my Father, my Mother thank you for caring for me, for working so hard that we have such a comfortable life, then and now (This is a kind of prayer).
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Daniel Khaleel says:
Hi Julita, I respect your stance. I don’t believe that we can comprehend the magnitude of God’s greatness and His mercy. Who am I to say in absolute terms that those who have passed and are in the family of believers cannot hear us? You continue to live in your convictions and the richness of your relationship with Christ.
Thanks for sharing.
Daniel.
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Great Daniel, still coming with structure and authority, which is necessary in any group organization, country, city and yes religious group too. I am not focussing on you, friend, but you are the one who made me come with the issue and I am thankful for that.
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pj_bali well done, accept my compliments in regard to popes.
Daniel, I thank you for giving me the chance to share the following posting. Remember also, I am not twisting anybody’s little finger. Out of context but good for other religious organization, or any organization to know.
Jlta: Coming from a Catholic background does not guarantee that we know the tremendous value we got of being a Catholic; otherwise, nothing could make us change religion. Many do not know exactly what that name imply, do not grasp the beauty and richness, the help available from a qualified, organized source.
Many people think it is easier to be non-Catholic. Not having to attend the Mass every Sunday, no confession (this is the hardest part in people’s mind), no fasting, easy divorce, abortion, pills etc. people see the inconvenience and do not see the reward
Jlta: If this mean anything at all. I grew and lived among Protestants, I went to Protestant churches from childhood on, until one day, at a religious class I read: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”(Matthew 16:18) I started to think and that is it! I want to go to the source not the branches, where the gates of hell will not prevail. So strong!
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Daniel: My philosophy on Church is “in essentials – unity. In everything else – diversity”.Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world (Matthew 28:19-20)
Jlta: This is essential. Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. . That was/is His instruction, no pick and choose. Though sad to say, non-Catholics are missing most of the essential teachings, omitting the most important Sacraments
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Daniel: That (robe and hat) it does not mean anything to Australian.Jlta: I hope you are not representing Australian. Just a few hours ago, I watch (from the other end of the world) how active Australian is preparing for the ‘World Youth Day’ to welcome the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI. . We’ll witness the shepherd, shepherding his lambs from all over the world. How beautiful that would be. If it does not mean anything to Australian or the Australian government, they would not spend so much money and effort to welcome the Holy Father.
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Daniel: I believe that the office of Pope is only one structure of Church governance, but nowhere in the Bible is one definite structure governed.Jlta: Nowhere in the Bible. You are definitely very wrong in the above, Jesus built ONE church, the church that Jesus Christ built has a strong foundation and was/is very well structured from the start and very well thought about into detail, human frailty and the constant needs of support, nourishment for the soul. Jesus knew all in advance how to build/prepare His church and continue to care for His people in the four corners of the world and He will be with His people till the end of the world.
RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY AND STRUCTURE: All power is given to Me in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18) “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. And the gate of hell shall not prevail against is.” (Matthew 16:18)
As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. (John 20:21) Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world (Matthew 28:19-20) And if he will not hear the church: let him be to thee as the heathen and publican (Matthew 18:17)THE AUTHORITY TO GIVE GRACE. “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me”¦. This is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you (Luke 22:19-20) “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” (John 20-23) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthy eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord” (1Cor 11:27-29) Do penance and baptize every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. (Acts 2:38) He that hideth his sins shall not prosper: but he that shall confess and forsake them shall obtain mercy. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift (2 Cor 9:15)
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Daniel: I believe that the greatest challenge of the church is to communicate the message of God into the context of culture and society. I believe that’s what incarnational living is all about. I believe that God came to man in the shape of a man (i.e., Jesus) to live in our culture and communicate in our language. Therefore, I believe that by following that pattern, the Church should look different in different cultures and contexts. For instance, in China the church (the community of believers) meet underground in homes and rice paddies and basements of office buildings to escape persecution.Jlta: Well said, and my compliments. The Vicar of Christ, the vine has spread its branches since way back, yes, they are in the paddy fields you were talking about.
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Daniel: In Australia, I attend an established community Church but am also beginning to host a home based church that reaches out to those who are not part of an established church, and for various reasons may never choose to be (i.e., they may perceive that it’s not relevant).Jlta: Your getting together with others in your home is excellent. Still I think, besides having a weekly meeting at the house, our duty is to bring them to the house of God. If they want to follow, they should follow wholly, soul and body. Perhaps, in time through you, great!
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Daniel: The message is the important part – not the structure of the Church.Jlta: In the organized church I Know, where one is looking after/watching over the other, there still exist some scandals what more ———— in those solo, free flowing religious organization, any organizations. Are they really qualified, good instructors according to the teaching, are they not going to take advantage of their followers, scandals going on and end up giving the a bad name to the organization or any other body of organization, government etc. all kinds of temptations are everywhere.
I know your energetic idea /ambition but not all are like you. Still, if they come to my door, I said ‘you are doing a good job.’ and I mean it.
Authority is not only good, it is necessary! Without it you cannot have order, decent living, happiness. Just imagine a country without police force, no government, no authority what a chaos a country would be. Structure of the church is definitely important. Jesus build His church, he is the head. It is His Church.
Jesus Christ has supreme authority over us; Jesus Christ gave his authority to the apostles, the authority to teach. Go therefore, teach ye all nations“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18 Christ gave Peter supreme authority in the Catholic Church. The apostles gave Christ authority to other bishops and priests.
The Bible tell us that the apostles ordained priests: “And when they had ordained to them priests in every church. they commended them to the Lord”¦cts 14:22
The fact that the Catholic Church is 1900 years old is simple history admitted by all historians. In the 16th century various groups called Protestants broke away from the ancient Church, the Catholic Church (sorry, both are to blame). We must with sorrow note that Protestants do not have the unity of government and worship. which Catholics enjoy. The important thing is, we have to deal with others with love and respect, whoever they are this is Christ’s teaching.Unity of the Catholic Church, when we say the catholic church is one or united, we mean that all the Catholics all over the world believe the same teachings, obey the same laws, receive the same sacraments to keep them holy, and are all united under the authority of the Pope, the bishops, and their pastors. Christ prayed for this unity when he founded His church. John 17:20-21 Luke 10:16) Galatians 1:8). How much stronger could His church be.
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I know my posting is getting too long, and out of context, though permit me to share one more issue which is always a question to many people. Why Jesus gave the Sacrament of Reconciliation.Could Christ forgive sins? (Luke 23-43) He forgave the good-thief. Christ gave the apostles the power to forgive sins. (John 20:21-23) “He that hideth his sins shall not prosper: but he that shall confess and forsake them shall obtain mercy (Proverbs 28-15)
ANSWER TO THE OBJECTION: :”I would rather go directly to God for forgiveness.”
A person who says that only God can forgive sins doesn’t believe the Bible; the Bible clearly tells us that God gave this power to men. God could forgive you directly if He wanted to, but He does not want to. Why doesn’t God want us to go directly to Him? No one is a judge in his own case, we would be too easy on ourselves. We need a judge, a human judge, here on earth to help us with difficult problems of conscience. God wants you to have this help; he wants people to be guided by their priests.
For instance if a married man is keeping company with a woman, who is not his wife, the priest will correct him. Or if a Catholic steals your purse, he will be obliged to give it back. If the same person made the same sin again and again, the priest would advice him how to solve it. -
Julita, it’s early and I’d love to reply to you point by point but I’m still tired. I’ll simply say one thing – I grew up as a Catholic and have been through all of the Catholic sacrements. The argument that you used
Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. . That was/is His instruction, no pick and choose. Though sad to say, non-Catholics are missing most of the essential teachings, omitting the most important Sacraments
is absurdity if you are suggesting that I pick and choose. I do not pick and choose, but many things commanded throughout the NT are specific to context of the churches to which they were written. This is theological fact. I stand in the school of thought that says no Christian denomination can claim to have absolute truth or understanding on the word of God but that we all have grace to interpret it to our context. Your claim is in the same league of extremists who prevent any questioning of their religious text. I.e., the Roman Catholics hold absolute truth. Please don’t get me started on this. the RC Church is as prone to error as every other Christian denomination and religion. The church is made up of humans and humans are prone to error.
i don’t wish to argue about the merits of Catholicism here Julita. I have already said that there is much beautiful about the Roman Catholic tradition. I would be happy to discuss this offline.
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Hassan says:
Daniel and Julita: Interesting discussion, but shouldn’t this be discussed on it’s own thread? The thread’s listed under “Sharia Application”, and you guys aren’t talking about that particular topic, are you?
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Daniel Khaleel:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect therefore, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Matius 5:38-38
Did you know why Jesus said those things, despite the original Torah ruling? Because the Jews were under Roman occupation at the time, Jesus advised them to stay as pacifists and don’t try to provoke the Romans. Can you imagine if a Roman soldier strike a Jew’s right cheek then the Jew retaliates, trying to uphold the Torah ruling? Nothing good, that’s for sure.
He was also trying to tell the Jews that he was not sent to liberate them from their enemies, which the Jews were longing and begged to God relentlessly for that to happen soon. Coincidently, the Jews were told by God in the previous Scriptures that their Messiah or Savior will be a mighty figure that will free them from their enemies that ruled over them. That’s why the Jews rejected Jesus in the first place. History had proven that the Jews must wait another 7 centuries until they and their lands in Jerusalem can be freed from the hands of the Byzantine Romans. Looks like what the Jews’ Scriptures had prophesized finally came true, but not through Jesus though.
Anyways, we have strayed OOT long enough. It was just my two cents, while we’re at it.
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Sorry, Patung some correction needed. Thanks!
Hassan: Interesting discussion, but shouldn’t this be discussed on it’s own thread? The thread’s listed under “Sharia Application”
I did apologize, didn’t I?
I also stated that “authority and structure” are important in other situations, may it be Sharia in Indonesia.
If Patung thinks it is not appropriate, I am sure he would warn those who did the posting and delete.
This is not the first time, when discussion goes out of context. As you said ‘interesting discussion’ and to me, it is beneficial for those who open their mind. It has quality and knowledge. -
Daniel: Many things commanded throughout the NT are specific to context of the churches to which they were written.
Jlta: I don’t know Daniel, I am not an expert but I know for sure that what Jesus teaches do not change with time, especially the Holy Eucharist and Confession. I attended a non-RC service in Perth. They did pass on (yeast) bread and wine on a tray, I won’t go into it unless required.
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Daniel: This is theological fact. I stand in the school of thought that says no
Christian denomination can claim to have absolute truth or understanding on the word of God but that we all have grace to interpret it to our context.Jlta: Well it is too difficult for some including me to interpret the Holy Scripture. As said about talents, each of us is given a different talent. Catholics have help at hand to ask, they study for years, they love and gave up everything people, things and dedicate their whole life for the church, the Faith they believe in. Teaching LOVE. So we go to them.
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Daniel: Your claim is in the same league of extremists who prevent any questioning of their religious text. I.e., the Roman Catholics hold absolute truth.Jlta: We are in a forum, in a discussion. So I wrote (with Help) my side, of course I make my effort to be good, make sense and with references. Why should one be classified as in a league of extremists? You were not reading properly, I said ‘You are doing a good job’ to people knocking at my door to convert me. Honestly, “I compliment you with what you are doing”. I’ll be happy to drive anybody to your gathering if need be, no problem.
_________________________Daniel: Please don’t get me started on this. the RC Church is as prone to error as every other Christian denomination and religion. The church is made up of humans and humans are prone to error.
Jlta: What you said in the above is very true about human errors; if you read carefully you’ll find me criticizing this well organized church (RC) as well, scandals. In the past as well as in the present, unlike any other denominations, the newspapers love to post them, so it is no secret.
Though one thing I am sure, priest, nuns, people who act not according to their vocation or Faith will never be able to push me away from my Faith, my soul is too precious, more important.
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Daniel: i don’t wish to argue about the merits of Catholicism here Julita. I have already said that there is much beautiful about the Roman Catholic tradition. I would be happy to discuss this offline.Jlta: Why argue about “merits”. Why bother. You know and I know and that is sufficient..
Galatians: And in doing good, let us not fail; for in due time we shall reap, not failing. Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
All the best in what you are doing. I see there were many others who are out of context, they are alright? I know, mine was a hard work.
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Hi Hassan,
May I ask your source for this claim?
I believe that the history of the Church, the translators, the theologians (from all Christian denominations), the ministers, and those who live their faith in obedience to those instructions, are against the claim that you made. We do not believe that the command of Jesus to “turn the other cheek” was specific purely to the context of Roman occupation.
I’m sorry I can’t give you the logical reply that you are looking for because this is not the focus of my studies.
Can I propose something Hassan?
I have avoided making claims about the Quran or the message of your prophet Mohammed because it has not been an area that I have studied. I have heard messages about your Holy Book spoken of from
a non-islamic perspective but I do not give them much attention as I am sure that they are heavily biased. As I have not been presumptuous to make a claim against the Quran because I understand that I do not have the cultural knowledge or Arabic ability, I ask that you will take the same stance. This will help to save me from running around putting out scrub fires all day.
I have also read the teachings of Ahmed Deedat and other anti-Christian crusaders and their claims on Christianity, and I can tell you with absolute assurance that their claims are false and mis-guided. I have heard teachers such as Ravi Zacharias (RZIM.org) who have dedicated their life to the study of Philosophy and Christian scripture, and were raised in the East so they can understand the Eastern worldview and they have refuted the claims of such teachers with brilliance and grace. If you’d like a reply to the claim that you posted above, I would encourage you to download some of the free podcasts from Ravi’s website. He never attacks a religion or person, and speaks from his deep personal knowledge and experience. He is often invited to the worlds top educational institutions (such as Harvard university) to engage in open and friendly debate with people from varying world views. He has also engaged in discussion with some of the grand-mufti’s in the ME.
Just back to the topic of non-violence… I have seen that violence only begets more violence. Have we not learnt from history and the lessons of the middle-east? I have seen remarkable contributions to peace in this world from the non-violent resisters such as Dr Martin Luther King Jnr and Mahatma Ghandi. What beautiful role models to follow.
And finally, and I believe that this is the MOST important part and it is a summary of my stance toward non-violence, and I believe the key to understanding Jesus teaching of non-violence –
I believe that we as humans are made in the image of God. He loves us as a Father loves his child. He gave us the grace of life. Because I believe we are made in the image of God, I will never be able to perpetrate violence on another human – regardless of what they do to me. I view all human life as sacred.
Hassan – you are the creation of Allah the most merciful and compassionate. So am I. So is every other person (whether they believe it or not). In light of this, how could we inflict pain on another of Allahs creation?
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Hi Julita,
My responses perhaps come from an overzealous stance that I’ve taken against dogmatic religion (in all of its expressions). For example, some arguments (such as one person prays the rosary and another doesn’t) seem foolish to me. If one person prays the rosary, let them do it according to their conviction and love for God. If another prays freely without recitation, let them do it according to their conviction and love for God. I believe that God cares more about us then about the clothes we wear or the christian traditions that we follow to express our devotion.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your stance, but it seemed to me that you were advocating that Roman Catholicism is the only true way. In my extended-family are a benedictine nun, penecostal church planter, roman catholic mum and mother-in-law, charismatic roman catholic father-in-law, and agnostic dad. Additionally, my friends are involved in mission work in slums along side people from all Christian traditions. They relate togethor in Christ as the central point of unity and are accepting to eachother in their different expressions of faith. None have claimed to be the only way. Jesus is the way. Not our expressions of relationship to him.
When asked “what is the most important commandment”, Jesus wrapped it up into “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And love your neighbour as yourself”. The community that I envision is one that lives in that command but still maintains their diversity. Unity in Diversity.
I believe that when we unite over the key things (i.e., the centrality of the cross, the mission of justice among the poor, etc), we will find that the secondary matters fade into insignificance.
Julita, I do love your passion. I have also experienced Indonesian and Philippino catholoicism and must say that is a beautiful and refreshing experience as opposed to the catholicism that I’ve experienced in Australia.
It’s nice to discuss these things with you. Perhaps though we should refrain from doing so in respect to the title of this blog – “Sharia Application”. I feel a more fitting title would be “The desecration of Pancasila: The Stealth Islamisation of the beautiful Republic of Indonesia”.
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Jlta: Daniel, why keep coming up with minor things— praying the beautiful Holy Rosary, nice clothing, Christian tradition are not religion, avoiding the important ones. You preaching ‘unity and diversity’ but you are not in there yet, friend. You should not attack the Vicar of Christ, because of the one church (for whatever reason) you did not like, that is pride. Regard it as a test of your Faith in the True Church. You should know better, come out stronger, correct from inside, though if you leave, does not bother me up to the Lord. Jesus said:” I know my sheep and my sheep know me, but there other fold of sheep which I have to attend to and it will be one.” Will quote the reference, if required. Pope Benedict XVI, the Vicar of Christ, is holy, intelligent, good leader, he has a heavy cross, he suffered with his people all over the world, his compassion and love for all people, encompasses the entire world situation.
I went to both sides of the churches in Perth and the RC was excellent, active, cheerful people. Check Monash University, I hear good things about them.
I pray, may you find your way home one day. Do, read Scott Hahn’s books -
Hi Julita, I’m sorry… I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about anymore. It does seem like you have missed my point. I’m not attacking anyone.
Please read my comment line by line. If you have difficulty to understand what I said, then please ask me about it. But as I read it again I do not see that I have attacked anyone. I simply say that “live according to your personal conviction – God is graceful and doesn’t judge us according to the tradition that we follow”.
I simply make comments that say regardless of your religious tradition, we can have unity over the centrality of the person of Christ. You don’t seem to read that part.
Have a great day Julita. I do hope that you can read my post again and see that I have not attacked anyperson or tradition.
Once again, if I have said something that is offensive to you, I am sorry. But please state it so that I can try to justify it. If I have done wrong or it is un-justifiable I will be the first to admit it and apologise.
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Actually, let me help guide your reply:
first, I mentioned the rosary as an example. it could be anything. in one tradition communion is placed into the mouth by the priest. in another tradition, communion takes the form of a complete meal. Both of these expressions are good. Both of these are expressing a love for God and a desire to remember Christ.
second, you say that I attacked the Vicar of Christ. I have not attacked him in anyway, and was actually a fan of John Paul II. I simply stated that the office of Pope is one form of church governance, and it is a form that I don’t follow. That is fine. You express your love to God by acknowledging the office of Pope. I express my love to God through a more organic horizontal level of Church governance – suggesting that we are all ministers. Both are fine.
third, you pointed our the cross that the pope has to bare. I acknowledge that also. He has a very important role to play. but i don’t want the cross that I bare or the cross that my auntry bears as a christian in Mindinao to be minimised in comparison to the Pope. both are expressing their love for God through their vocation and ministry. one way is not better than the other.
finally, i did not make offensive remarks to the catholic church anywhere. I simply pointed out that asian catholicism was more vibrant than australian catholicism. you say that you experienced it in Perth. understand that I have to. one way is not better than another. both asian catholicism and australian catholicism are expression of the congregations love to God.
Julita, please be straight with me – you said that you pray I will find my way home one day. Are you suggesting that the RC church is “home”? If you are, that is the only issue that I have.
I believe that our home is in Christ – in whatever form that takes. If it is a house church, then good. If it is a Roman Catholic church, then good. If it is a church of native believers with no traceable tradition such as what is often experienced in some corners of the world, then good. As long as Christ is central and the community of believers share their lives with eachother in following Christ in this world.
I do draw parallels between this conversation and the post that we are commenting in. The argument is almost like saying “if you are a muslim, you must abide by Sharia Islam – no exceptions”. It is a dangerous stance.
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Jlta: You are doing a good job’ to people knocking at my door to convert me. Honestly, “I compliment you with what you are doing”. I’ll be happy to drive anybody to your gathering if need be, no problem.
Jlta: Jesus said:” I know my sheep and my sheep know me, but there other fold of sheep which I have to attend to and it will be one.”
Your first posting in regard to the ‘robe and hat of the poe’ and that it they do not means anything to Australian, did I misunderstand that? Sorry, my apology.
Be at peace, all is in the Lord’s hands. I have said enough the same with you and to me we crossing each other.
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Hi Julita,
No you didn’t misunderstand it. It was my bad. It is not my true opinion, it was worded badly. My apologies. Now I understand your stance in the comments.
You are right. Many people do connect with the formality of the RC tradition, and I shouldn’t presume to talk for everyone. There are many Australians from all corners of life that are sincere in their Christian journey and connect with the liturgical aspects of RC.
I was speaking on behalf of people within my own circle. Friends, colleagues, and family that I have who have lost touch with Christ because they were unable to connect with particular forms of church.
And besides, I would never intentionally bring offence to the RCC when one of my greatest heroes was a RC monk – Saint Francis of Assisi.
Thanks for the reply Julita.
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Moses never claimed to be a priest. But he confronted a priest who calls himself Pharoah.
Moses merely delivered God’s messages.
Same with Jesus and Mohamed. They were all messengers.
Did God give authority or appointed anyone to be Popes and priests?
Do not be confused. Blind followers will fall into the trap of their priests.
Have Faith in the One and only Creator. You do not have to go to churches or mosques to communicate with God. Nor must you face in any particular direction. God is omipresent. He is everywhere and aware of your thoughts. The Mighty. The Wise.
The term Allahuakbar (God is Great) was never mentioned in the koran. Present day muslims will die for whatever their priests and clerics promised them, like 72 virgins for killing themselves in suicide attacks. These muslims are indeed being misled by the religious scholars.
God says in the koran to use your common sense. But religious priest and clerics will tell you otherwise.
For the faithful (Those who submit to God and nothing else), they will be judged by your deeds. For everyone else, think and do not be mere followers as stated in the koran –2:104 O you who trust, do not say ‘be our shepherd’ (Ra’inaa), instead say ‘watch over us’ (Un-zur-naa) and be informed. And for those who disobey they deserved severe penalty.
As I understand from the koran, The hell fire is forever for those who Do not trust God’s guidance.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Daniel Khaleel said
… Perhaps though we should refrain from doing so in respect to the title of this blog – “Sharia Application”. I feel a more fitting title would be “The desecration of Pancasila: The Stealth Islamisation of the beautiful Republic of Indonesia”.
10 karma-points for you, Daniel. But the same should be said for ‘The Stealth Christianization of the beautiful Republic of Indonesia’.
Most problems arise when religious groups claim to possess ‘the one and only truth’ which they then try to proselytize without respect for local traditions and circumstances. Prophetic monotheist religions (except the Jewish) have a penchant for this. If the aim of religion is to transcend human nature does it mean that it has to be done the McDonald’s way (one type of food for all)? The universe is characterized in the first place by diversity and thanks to diversity evolution takes place. What a boring, dreadful place the world would be if we all had to sing the same song. Is this the way to please our God? -
Daniel. IThanks for your posting. God’s abundant blessing be with you and your family.
Take care. -
Good morning Dewa,
You said:
The universe is characterized in the first place by diversity and thanks to diversity evolution takes place. What a boring, dreadful place the world would be if we all had to sing the same song. Is this the way to please our God
Faith in God does not need to be one size fits all. Diveristy is good. I have seen amazing expressions of church that are relevant to the culture in which they exist.
It seems that you are saying (forgive me if I’m wrong) that all belief systems are fine and we should just focus on ourselves. Such as, you do your thing and I’ll do mine. I cannot accept this when so much suffering is caused as a result.
Many belief systems do so much harm. In India we can see the horrendous lifestyles being lived by those who are considered to be from the “untouchables” class. They are the victims of human trafficing, exploitation, and every other type of vile crime against humanity that there can be. The predominant belief system in India is what keeps them in that class. In India, more than 25% of the population sits below the official poverty line. While 25% of their population is living and dying like animals, enough grain to fill a carriage train that stretches from Washington to LA and back again is eaten by rats every single year. yet the Indian belief system forbids the culling of rats because they are treated as sacred. Rats seem to be treated more sacred then human life.
I have heard of children from the “untouchables” class being beaten to death for accidentally touching a cooking utensil belonging to someone from a higher class. I heard of a mother recently whose daughter was brutally raped who did not seek justice because of two things:
1. she believed that the offender will get his justice in the next life; and
2. she believed that the daughter probaly did something in her previous life to deserve the rape.I’m sorry. I love people to much to turn a blind eye to the things that are keeping them bound. I want to see people live whole lives, able to celebrate life. I want to see all people given opportunity and equality. I believe that Christ provides that way. In India today, many from the “untouchables” class are experiencing new hope since they put their faith in the Creator God.
Travel to Bali and see offerings being laid out on the beach to appease the spirits of the ocean to prevent tsunami. Travel to Papua New Guinea and see Aids patients dumped in rubbish heaps, or nailed with stakes through their skulls because they believe that Aids is caused by witchcraft. In Africa, young girls are being raped because the rapist believes that doing so will cure their Aids. In Saudi Arabia anyone caught professing a religion other than Islam is incarcerated (worse if you are an apostate). In China, we saw Chairman Mao (an atheist) have more than 80 million of his citizens executed, and then demand people to treat him as their god. Similiarly, we see Atheists throughout history commit attrocities of genocide and ethnic cleansing to eradicate religion and cement their power. In Indonesia, we heard of young girls decapitated while walking to school, in the name of religious revenge. And then I see the confusion in this world caused through a lack of moral compass and ethics.
God is good. He desires life and freedom. He did not create us to be bound by fear and worry. He created us to live vibrant and beautiful lives.
So I reaffirm my position – diversity is good. My God is a God of Justice. Any belief system that brings oppression or fear need to be exposed. My experience shows me that when people take the call of Christ seriously to love God with all of their heart, and love their neighbour as themselves, justice is done, life prevails.
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Additionally Dewa,
I don’t seek the christianization of Indonesia. The term has collonialist mentality to it. I seek justice. My closest friend is Indonesian muslim. He is like a brother to me. I respect him and he respects me. Our wives are friends. We eat togethor and hopefully our children will play togethor (when I have a child). I do not seek to “convert” him. But he does know my stance on Christ. Whenever he has expressed a feeling of hopelessness with this world or his country, he has heard me reply “if we follow the lifestyle of Christ to genuinely love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbour as ourselves, many wrongs will be made right”.
He also knows my belief in the salvation that comes through faith in Christ, but I have not tried to preach this to him. He has asked me about my faith and I have shared. This is not “christianization”.
Our friendship is based on our shared humanity. we are both the creation of God.
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Based on above statements, mankind are suckers to religion.
In the old days, Indian widow will throw themselves into their husband’s funeral pyre in the name of religion, only to burn themselves to death.
The Maya and Incas, and not to mention all the indian tribes in north america have tasted the Christian salvation. Some of these tribes have ceased to exist.
If christians worship christ, then they have neglected the creator of christ.
Can Christ protect Christians from The Creator?Worship rituals are intended to make mankind feel pleased.
When Soloman was marching with his army, they confronted a race that worship the sun, which made them pleased. Until Soloman corrected them and made them serve God by doing good deeds and be righteous as stated below from the koran:-
“I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain.”
27:23 “I found them ruled by a woman, and she was given all possession, and she had a great throne.”
27:24 “And I found her and her people prostrating/submitting to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.”
27:25 “Will they not prostrate/submit to God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?”
27:26 “God, there is no god but He, the Lord of the great throne.”none of the biblical stories mentioned any acts of ritual worship. You need not be in a special site to communicate with God nor face in a particular direction. You can communicate with God at any time and any place and facing any direction.
Comment on “Sharia Application”.
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Jokoboyo: how come the pope was never ever an Arab (knowing there are good Christian living in Arab as minority), african, asian or latin american (hispanic) race? Why the pope has been always elected within Italy, Germany, Poland white-man? For the past thousands years? After all Christian is a universal religion?
Daniel: First of all, sorry to anyone who I may offend with this post. I know it’s a sensitive issue and I have thought long and hard about this in my own journey. I mean no disrespect…
I believe that the office of Pope is only one structure of Church governance, but no where in the Bible is one definate structure governed. The Pope does not speak on behalf of the universal Church, but only on behalf of Roman Catholics.
I believe that the greatest challenge of the church is to communicate the message of God into the context of culture and society. I believe that’s what incarnational living is all about. I believe that God came to man in the shape of a man (i.e., Jesus) to live in our culture and communicate in our language. Therefore, I believe that by following that pattern, the Church should look different in different cultures and contexts. For instance, in China the church (the community of believers) meet underground in homes and rice paddies and basements of office buildings to escape persecution. In Australia, I attend an established community Church but am also beginning to host a home based church that reaches out to those who are not part of an established church, and for various reasons may never choose to be (i.e., they may percieve that it’s not relevant). For me, the important part is the message and the medium. The message of salvation is important and we need to communicate it in a language that people understand. The message is the important part – not the structure of the Church.
Therefore, I believe that the office of Pope has not caught up with contemporary culture. The flowing robe and hat were beautiful in Roman and medieval culture. But to the average Australian, it is meaningless. Our society can’t interpret that. That is not incarnational living. Some of my friends live out the mission of Jesus (incarnational living) by moving into the neighbourhoods that they are called to minister to. For some, that means voluntarily becoming poor to live in a slum in Bangkok or Manilla or Jakarta to extend love in a practical way to the poor who live there.
In all diveristy – grace and peace. God’s ways are higher than ours.