Sharia Application
Aug 22nd, 2007, in News, by PatungSharia can be applied without making Indonesia an Islamic state.
Fuad Amsyari of the Crescent Star Party, Partai Bulan Bintang (PBB), said in Jakarta on 21st August that the basic form of the state, Pancasila, did not need to be changed in order that sharia be applied. Instead, every law that was made could incorporate Islamic law.
It was a mistake to think that sharia application depended on an Islamic state, he said, and there was nothing in Pancasila that prevented sharia law from being applied in Indonesia. Every government policy and law could employ sharia, he said, and no discrimination against non-Muslims would occur.
There will be no discrimination because in Islam there can be no discrimination.
Another PBB leader, Sahar L. Hassan, agreed that sharia could be adopted without altering the constitution, and hoped that it could be applied at the level of the state, however, someone convicted of theft in an area for which the state was responsible would not suffer hand amputation, but in ordinary theft cases hand amputation would occur.
Meanwhile, in the interests of the further application of sharia law, the PBB is inviting clerics from throughout the country and well-known figures such as Muhammadiyah leader Din Syamsuddin, NU leader Hasyim Muzadi, Majelis Ulama Indonesia leader Ma’ruf Amin, Siddiq Amin of Persatuan Islam (Persis), and representatives of Dewan Dakwah, Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, Dewan Masjid Indonesia, Ikatan Wanita Muslimat Indonesia, and the Badan Komunikasi Pemuda Remaja Masjid Indonesia (BKPRMI), to attend a meeting in Bogor, 24-26th August.
During this meeting it is hoped that ways to apply sharia in all aspects of life can be discussed, as well as the means of bringing this about, and specific proposals that can be put to the government and parliament. republika
246 Comments on “Sharia Application”
-
Hassan says:
Aluang Anak Bawang: You’re still as hilarious as ever, not always in a positive way though. You see Mas Anak Bawang, I see you as always trying to mimic Ahmad in your recent posts, not necessarily in style of speech (as Ahmad had far more sophistication in his’) but more in your ‘hidden’ intentions. While mentioning the word ‘Jew’ or discussing about the history of the prophets can hardly be said as mimicking Ahmadinejad.
You can call me Mr. Ahmadinejad after I rally the people of the Muslim World to wipe Israel off the map, or announcing to the world that the Holocaust is a myth generated and preserved by the Jews so the western world would pity them and would give them a blank check for the establishment of the illegal state of Israel. Nice try though. 😉
BTW, I’ve obviously been away for too long, as I failed to grasp what you meant by the “topless” and “bottomless” posts. Can you elaborate, please!
Pieter: First let me make one thing perfectly clear: I do not hate the Hebrews as a race of people, I simply do not like what some of your Zionist and Neo-Conservative brothers are doing.
Remember that the Arabs were very advanced during the pre-Islamic period and we in the West still plunged in our dark middle ages, maybe still sitting in the tree high and dry. Things have changes since that time and after the spread of Islam.
I’m sorry to say, but you got your historical accounts wrong. Pre-Islamic Arabs are superstitious pagans, who would kill their new born daughters because they felt that daughters are nothing but burdens, who treat their women as property and can marry as many women as they want.
The “advancements” you mentioned in fact happened after Islam, and not prior to it’s advent. Islam was first introduced in the in the early 7th century, while the advancements (known as the Islamic Golden Age) was dated from the middle of the 8th century to the middle of the 13th century. I trust that you can fill in the blanks and guess my point.
You can google “Islamic Golden Age” to verify what I said, or you could start from wiki at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age.
As for the downward trends for Muslims these days, all I can say every major civilizations and religions had their highs and lows. Muslims are now on one of their lowest ones, I suppose.
My reply is that all prosperous, free, democratic, law obeying countries have laws based on the Jewish faith and the Judeo-Christian faiths even Islam has adopted many laws directly out of Judaism
Pieter, I know that you’re not a man of faith, but still, you can’t credit your people for having the laws that God gave you. It’s not like the Jews ‘invented’ those laws and have the patent right. In a spiritual point of view, The One True God gave those laws to the ancient Jews for them to uphold and also that later on they can spread them to all humanity. And we can’t say that they’re overtly successful in holding on to those laws or indeed in performing the task of spreading them to the rest of humanity. Because if they were, let’s just say that the advent Christianity and Islam would not be necessary, as there would be nothing to rectify in the first place. Remember, the rabbis had exchanged the God-given Torah with the Talmud.
Israel is a ghetto – Jerusalem is Warsaw”¦ The Nazis who besiege us speak Arabic!
You’re not serious, are you? The Israeli built the walls themselves, not the Arabs. Wasn’t it the Israeli who were turning the Gaza Strait into a huge Palestinian ghetto, and not the other way around? Plus, the rock throwing Palestinian children are not the Third Reich’s SS soldiers, Pieter.
You have to admit the situation doesn’t look good for the Israeli, any person with a right mind would know who’s the ghetto victims and who’s the Nazi officers. The Israeli with their billion dollar state-of-the-art war machines certainly doesn’t look like the victims, and the meager AKs, RPGs, home made rockets, and even rock wielding Palestinians can hardly be visualized as the big bad Nazis you were trying to portray.
Cheers!
-
Jokoboyo says:
Dear all,
My last posting were rated -5, so you guys defeated my opinion, so it is not popular for you guys, I assume some of you are Muslim moderate.
Okay, my point is simple, according to Quran there is only black or white, the white (good) Muslim are the one practice syariah law full stop. The black Muslim are simply the defect product of islam therefore this group ethically should declare themself as non-Muslim.
I give you solution, it is better to declare yourself as a free thinkers rather than denting the truly Muslim identity or you can quite as Muslim and embrace other religion therefore you will change your KTP status as accordingly thus it will not inflate the true Muslim population in Indonesia.When you say, syairah law is outdated, is not compatible with Pancasila, is bad, is stink, etc … okay okay but are you a Muslim ? then why do you deny if it is the Quran’s call for actions to every single Muslim ? So you want to kill all milion of Muslim in the Afrika, Middle East, China because you dislike Syairah ? are you committing holocaust or planning to do so ?
Hey brothers, Syairah Muslim is a legitimate religion trusted by milion of white good Muslims, why are you so bother ? -
Cukurungan says:
Hassan,
If Ahmad Sudarsono tried to imitate Borat, Aluang is definitely trying to imitate Ahmad. What’s the matter Aluang, you felt that your traditional bashing didn’t work, you have to resort to sarcasms and parodies now? Tsk..tsk..
Cukurungan :
Actually Mas ALUANG was so upset because he expected that I would reffer to Quran or Hadist verses to refute his bashing but instead I only used the 8th wonder world’s of “Cukurungan Theory” and now he was changing the tactics and please be beware that Mas Aluang has met with a taxi drivers who already discovered and revealed the real biography of our prophet so beware Islam in the way out…..he he he…at least in his delusion.
-
Dear all,
My last posting were rated -5, (so sad) so you guys defeated my opinion, hm it is not popular for you guys, I assume some of you are Muslim moderate.
Okay, my point is simple, according to Quran there is only black or white, the white (good) Muslim are the one practice syariah law full stop. The black Muslim who disobey Quran are simply the defect product of islam therefore this group ethically should declare themself as non-Muslim. Because you tend to disgrace Muslim itself.
I give you solution, it is better to declare yourself as a free thinkers rather than denting the truly Muslim identity or you can quite as Muslim and embrace other religions therefore you must quickly change your KTP status as accordingly thus it will not inflate the true Muslim population & statistic data in Indonesia. Otherwise people like me still living in myown dream as if Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country.When you say, syairah law is outdated, is not compatible with Pancasila, is bad, is stink, etc … okay okay but do you called yourself as a Muslim ? if yes, then why do you deny if it is the Quran’s call for actions to every single Muslim ? So you want the title as Muslim but you deny our code of conduct practices, is that means you may want to kill all milion of Muslim in the Afrika, Middle East, China because you dislike Syairah ? are you committing holocaust or planning to do so ?
Hey brothers, Syairah Muslim is a legitimate religion trusted by milion of white good Muslims, why are you so bother ? Be consistent & graceful in what you believe …. -
Cukurungan: Well I guess using reasoning and reverting to the Quranic verses and Hadiths will only work when the person we’re talking to are really interested in finding the truth. When the other party’s intention was only to spread falsehood and bashing other religions (even though the followers of the religion in context never ever say anything bad about his faith) like Mpu Aluang likes to do, then the end result would be nothing more than ‘debat kusir’.
In this case, good luck with the ever elusive and mystical “Cukurungan Theory”. I noticed that you’re one of the more persistent poster in this forum, so may you always stay ‘istiqomah’ in your future ventures. 🙂
Jokoboyo: Actually, I think most of the posters in Indonesiamatters are non-Muslims.
About the Sharia, most of our non-Muslim friends didn’t know that implementing Sharia is actually an obligation for Muslims, and rejecting it even in one’s own heart will mean that the person had ‘rebelled’ against what his Creator had ordained. ‘Rebellion’ to the will of Allah SWT is not what being a Muslim is all about.
Let’s use a simple analogy, a Christian must attend church every Sunday afternoon, but on the very afternoon he must leave for church, some non-Christian neighbours always visits and insisted that the Christian should stay at home to keep them company (let’s assume this happens every week throughout the year). Should the Christian :
A). forfeit his/her obligation to go to church as a token of religious tolerance and harmony, and as a way to be a good neighbour.
B). go to church anyway to keep his/her religious obligation, and find other ways to show religious tolerance and good neighbourly behavior.Well, Indonesian Muslims was literally forced to accept option B at our own detriment, jeopardizing our obligation to God. Off course the certain elements called the ‘abangan’ or non-practicing Muslims wouldn’t know what’s good for them, and some of the moderates had been tricked into thinking that Sharia is optional. BTW, I’m one of the moderates who didn’t fall for the trick.
-
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Assalamualaikum mas Hassan, that was the most unIslamic post ever written by you. 50,000 years before the Big Bang, Allah swt already predicted this conversation. You are keeping all the goodies of Islam for yourself. I am scouting for my next underage bribe, and nothing you can do to stop me from following in the footstep of our beloved prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him).
Allah knows best. Salam.
-
Sylvester says:
The Intl’ Child Protection Agency is watching you.
OK OK, let them come to have a tea with me. So we can discuss how to eliminate radical moslems with their sharia
-
aluang, you are out of ammo. he he
You’re saying I support pedophily just because I said moderate islam is better than radicals, waaao what a intellegent deduction! amazing! Agree with other posters in this forum that you’re just a provocator.
May GOD enlighted your path. -
Mas Sylvester, I still stand by my conviction. Anyone well-versed and yet supporting ‘moderate’ or ‘radical’ Islam has a agenda. Our well-learned moderate Muslim brother, Hassan, is back – go ask him if it it true that a ‘good’ Muslim follow in the footstep of beloved prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him).
Homosexuality and pedophilly are rampant in Western countries especially in religious institutions and scout camps. While homosexual are usually between two consenting adults, pedophilly involve an innocent underage victim. Pedophiles are hunted down by their government and tagged for life. They bring their fetish overseas to developing countries like Indonesia where chances of them being caught is slim. They then support an ideology (in this case Islam) which supported it just in case one day they are caught, they can rely on Islamic defences. Our Muslims population are mostly peasant and uneducated, while those educated are disgusted by it. So tell me if I profiled you wrongly?
Salam.
-
Yes, you profiled me wrongly.
Agree that some pedophilies take victims in developing countries, which is totally wrong. If you want to fight it, it is good, I support. These people have to sentenced heavily and treated psycologically as human.Homosexuality and pedophilly are rampant in Western countries especially in religious institutions and scout camps.
That is not true. There might be some cases but you can not take them to represent all. This is a bad way of thinking. A few Catholic priests may be pedophily, but does it mean all church are bad? Christianity is bad? Some moslem are just terrorist, but can we say islam = terror? Radical islam = terror. The point is every radical group is dangerous, no matter from what religion is. In conclusion, forcing sharia in any country incl indo is an act of terror. It has to be stopped.
-
Pieter says:
Hassan,
I see that with you I can somehow reason!
Thank you for not hating the Hebrew people and today’s Jews that decent from those days Hebrews. “I do not hate Muslim, I work with many, my wife and part of her family are Muslims as well. You claim that you do not like the Zionist and Neo-Conservative brothers are doing.” quite frankly, do you prefer the (Muslim) Arab countries that surround Israel? Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a proportional representation of the Arab (Muslim and not Muslim) represented in parliament. The country has a GDP bigger than all Arab countries combined, and is a major contributor to art, science, technology and medicine. Not so much could be said about the surrounding countries with corrupt and oppressing regimes. I do not claim Israel to be perfect, far from it.
OK granted, the Arabs flourished during the “Islamic Golden Age”, but now days they seem to be back to be the superstitious pagans you claim they were during the Pre-Islamic period. I often am in these countries for my work, and believe me, it is not a pleasure to deal there.
As you said, I am not a person of faith. But yes, I take proud in being a free-thinking non-religious person. I however have a culture. And yes, if I follow the book God gave the laws to the Jews. But unlike the Jews were not a missionary people and did not look to convert ever other people or nations to Judaism. The concept of the “Chosen People” was also never meant to claim any superiority towards others. The so called “Chosen People” had to behave as a nation of priest standing as an example to the world, not converting the world. Bringing Or la’goyim (“A light unto the nations”):
In Isaiah’s prophecy (Isaiah 49:6) Israel is called a “light unto the nations. For it is the primary responsibility of the Jewish people to bring the world to perfect peace, brotherhood, and harmony. A future without war, hunger or strife. I agree that many of my fellow Jews have failed in this task!You mentioned that the Jews have exchanged their god given Torah for the Talmud; what does that mean? The Jews are living (or are supposed to) by the so called God given laws as per the 10 commandments and the Torah. The Talmud are interpretations of these laws by Jewish scholars of various tendencies. The laws are indeed open for discussing and adaptation to new events. They are not put in question as you seem to insinuate.
About Israel being a Ghetto, yes, I am dead serious! Of course I do not refer to the immediate situation with that separation fence and wall being build. No, since the creation of the State of Israel, the country has been under constant attack by most of the Arab countries surrounding it. The destruction of Israel by Arab armies has failed so far. Even if some voices come up here and there to wipe Israel of the map. Most recently from the Iranian President. Talk about a Statesman! I agree with you that the Palestinian situation has to be solved and that they should have their own state in a viable form of a sufficient land for them. No army can fight freedom aspiring people, we know that and we saw that last summer. The Israeli Defense Forces may out gun any of the Arab countries, Iran included but no army is a match to fight popular resistance in an asymmetric warfare. That said, your Palestinian friends have missed numerous opportunities to live in peace on their own land. Many offers have been made and the best offer under Clinton and PM Barak was rejected by Arafat. Sure the Israeli leadership took advantage of it and drags his feet. Till Sharon unilateral disengagement from Gaza as a 1st step. Te rest is history and we see what the Palestinians are able to make of this disagreements. One big mess and the election of Shaaria loving Hamas.
So OK, go ahead with Shaaria in Indonesia, we see the exemple what religious fanatics will do by following Shaaria rather than establishing descent and functioning institution in a country. The institutions already do not function will in Indonesia but under Shaaria it will for sure be the Middle Ages!
Chalom,
Pieter -
Sylvester: If Sharia as an Islamic obligation must be practiced by Muslims, and if Indonesian Muslims decides to uphold Sharia to fulfill their obligation to God, then by using your formula then Indonesian Muslims or Muslims in general who performs their religious obligations are terrorists then?
We can’t cherry pick which obligations to God we must perform and which ones we must not perform. We must perform ALL of them. And if you consider Muslims who performs their religious obligation by upholding the Sharia as terrorist, then you have a problem. As more than 80% or hundreds of millions of Indonesians are Muslims, and it would be just a matter of time before they finally woke up and actually do their obligations to God.
Please read my previous post about the ‘Christian and his church-going obligation’ analogy to give you a clearer view about the dilemma Indonesian Muslims are in. Would you forfeit you religious duties for the sake of other people’s interest, or would you do it anyway to receive your Lord’s blessing even if other people wouldn’t like you for doing it?
-
Pieter: Actually choosing between Israel and it’s neighboring Arab countries is like choosing between two evils for me. One one hand Israel is an illegally established country, built on a place which had been inhabited by a group of people for hundreds of years and had it’s own government. The earlier Jewish settlers in the early 20th century abused the UN mandate that gave them the right to settle in Jerusalem and it’s surrounding areas by driving out the local Arabs and building their own state there while denying the host Arabs their right to their own sovereignity for decades, to this day.
And I don’t need to remind you that the Jews of the day used less than admirable tactics – tactics that would make the likes of Hamas looks like a bunch of amateurs – to accomplish their aims. Ask the British about the escapades of Ben Gurion and his terrorist gang of thugs, if you don’t believe me.
They also destroyed, pillaged and confiscated the Arab’s properties and land and forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs to live in refugee camps scattered in the neighboring regions. And to this very day the Israeli had refused those refugees’ right of return and repatriate what was taken from them. I mean they Israeli govt. thinks that the Jews have the right to return to their “ancestral homeland” and even ‘imported’ non-indigenous Hebrews from Europe, Russia, and even Africa but the Palestinian Arabs can’t even return to their rightful home?? Let’s just say I don’t like any form of injustice and cunningness.
On the other hand we have the Arab despots and totalitarians around them. Let’s just say I dislike the Jordanian monarchs, the ever bickering and weak government of Lebanon, and the left winged Baathist Assad’s Syiria as much as you do. They are a far cry from the early Muslim and the Caliphate that Muhammad (pbuh) had modeled and the ideal form of Islamic governance. Heck, even the Saudi Monarchs are nothing more than self-serving bunch of tyrants (save a very few of them). The Muslim World drastically declined after WW II and the fall of the Ottomans resulting in the rise of these despotic and repressive regimes.
Hence, on this matter I cannot choose the lesser of these two evils. What I would like to see is a fair and balanced two state solution, a solution based on fair terms and not the one sided ones Israel had previously offered. About Barak’s Camp David offer, here’s the answer to your questions, according to the Arab (Muslim) side: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story416.html. Perhaps then you can see that it wasn’t as fair as you think it was.
On Hamas, my position is that there’s nothing wrong about their Sharia-loving tendencies. Sharia IS the Islamic law, the law of the religion that they’re following. They also should be respected for standing up to a foreign occupation force (the IDF). Hey, fighting for freedom is actually considered heroic on most parts of the world (except in Tel Aviv or Washington perhaps). What is despicable was perhaps their actions of using suicide bombings on innocent civilians.
You mentioned that the Jews have exchanged their god given Torah for the Talmud; what does that mean?
The answer may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): “My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes (Talmud) than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).”
-
O man, I thought I accidentally log onto ‘Middle Eastern Matters’. Mas Hassan can pack up his combat gears and join the PLO, Hamas or Fatah. When you are done with it, Indonesia will still claim your body back. Anak Indonesian still belong to Indonesian, the thing I don’t understand is ‘why the busybody?’.
-
Aluang,
For a change i agree with you!
Pieter
-
Julita says:
Aluang: Next time, google search yourself. It is only a click away. I can’t babysit you all the time.
I am still here, came back from a quiet week-end. I see, you have accumulated one more person who disagree with you. Will work on your comment, talk to you soon! The thing is you should ‘look before you leap’. Hm, good luck with Hassan.
-
Hassan,
Sharia is terror because:
1. It does not treat men & women in equal
2. It is anti non moslem/other religions
3. It allows to kill non-moslem/infidels
4. It is an eye for an eye concept, revenge is encouraged
5. It is hypocrite
Those aspects are not seen in Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, even Atheism.We can’t cherry pick which obligations to God we must perform and which ones we must not perform.
Yes, it is correct, but we are talking about different god. islamic god is not the same with Christian GOD or Buddha or Shiva, etc. Also, is sharia from islamic god or just a fabrication of radical political hypocrite imam?
Thus, moslem have to rethink what kind of islam that they want to follow or their god have told. If islam god is a true god, he won’t allow evil acts such as murdering and discrimination.
Peace! ^_^ -
Dear Julita, you mean mas Hassan? I am not surprised. He is pro-Arabanization while I am all for Kebudayaan – Indonesia for Indonesians. Over the centuries we have welcomed traders from China, India and the Middle East. Many are sojourners and some decided to settle on our land. Like the Indonesian Chinese, I think he is Indonesian of Arab heritage, because he speaks with a vengeance in regard to Middle Eastern conflicts as if it is personal. His sidekick, Sheikh Cuk, is a typical Javanese Muslim from his many pro-Pris’ postings. Unfortunately Pris tend to be lackeys to migrant Chinese and Arab settlers. Of the two, Sheikh Cuk is a lesser threat when shove comes to push, I am confident he will be standing on Indonesian’s side. If Arab migrant like Hassan continues to cajole us into their conflict, we will need a referendum to send them packing for the Middle East. Their loyalty should be Indonesia.
Salam.
-
Dear Sylvester,
Didn’t you forget that Muslim is born to be terrorists and this is our free choice and I let you know that we never cease to terrorize anyone who intend to steal our land, our wealth and our beliefs.
Our God is the only creator of Universe and everything in it so if your God isn’t the same with our God, your God must be one of a creature has been made by Our God.
So goods luck and you may continue to worship Him and we never bother with what you do/ will do as long as you don’t play tricks to attract our brother and sister to follow your beliefs.
Yes in your engineered bible, God didn’t talk about pedophilia, killing and murdering but the fabricated stories written in bible about the bad deeds such as adultery, incest and killing committed by our beloved prophet Abraham and other prophet, it would certainly provide motivation for ordinary people to commit similar crimes, it is no secret anymore that the pedophilia case rampant in church society and the western society because simple reason if those sacred prophet could commit horrible crimes but Jesus still can save their souls so what is wrong if we ordinary people can slaughter Indian, Iraqi and aborigine to give rooms for life of our own brother. Of course Jesus would do his business to save our souls.
You see.. how evil and dangerous Christianity has been guarding The western ambition but we the brown men would never be deceived again.
For all my fans, I deeply regret to announce that “Mythology Man of Cukurungan” will be grounded for a while in refrain timing of the ramadhan
Regard,
Provokator No.1 -
mas Cuk said:
You see.. how evil and dangerous Christianity has been guarding The western ambition but we the brown men would never be deceived again.
Actually it is not a bad statement, when you see it from the side of pure ‘soleh’ Muslim, it is not wrong huh? So I quote it as thumb-up.
Then there was another posting by someone I forgot, challenging the fact that: how come the pope was never ever an Arab (knowing there are good Christian living in Arab as minority), african, asian or latin american (hispanic) race? Why the pope has been always elected within Italy, Germany, Poland white-man? For the past thousands years? After all Christian is a universal religion?
-
Hassan,
I see that you are fair and evaluate the matter to its real values even when judging your fellow Muslim brothers and their decadent societies.
Hard to choose between Israel or Arabs surrounding it? For you not as both do not appeal and I can follow this. For me on the other had no problem and I would go for Israel of course. I lived in that country for 10 years for my work. I also have traveled extensively the Arab world. Well, you should go and have a look at both sides. Ever heard about difference such as day and night? Israel, far from being perfect and surely to blame for some of its rude actions it claim to do for it’s self defense and survival, is indeed an advanced and fair and advanced society. People holding citizenship of any faith are having equal political right and enjoy the same and advanced social services. This country would be an example for the entire Arab and wider Muslim world if you ask me. Most of the Arab country are as you say rude dictatorships and even the most prosperous Gulf Sates are being developed with Western expertise and build by poor immigrant workers from Asia mainly under conditions not far from slavery.Why you call Israel an Illegally established nation if far searching. The “League of Nations” (now days UN) voted and by majority the portion of the British Mandate territory was agreed up on. Jordan was created, a Palestine side and a Jewish side. All Arabs rejected the deal and engaged in a war that they lost. Much of the land was also legally bought and much of the area was not inhabited but permanent residents. I agree that some Arab villages were scared away by the war engaged by the Arabs and yes, the Israelis did encourage them to leave. also true that the nomadic tribes were limited in their movements. The fact is that Jews were chased away from their homeland in the year 70 of our current area by the Romans. This does not void their claims and aspiration to relocate back to their homeland. Just as if you would leave your house for a longer periode, you or your hires would steill be the owners of that house. Not even after 2000 years of wandering! There has always been a Jewish presence in the Holy Land in small numbers it is true. The Jewish people have always in their prayers expressed the will to return home. This became only possible after the political will was expressed end of the 19th century and physically after WOII of course.
But Illigal”¦? Not at all. The referendum on Iran was Illegal if you want to ask me!
About Ben-Gurion and its tactics. I suppose that you refer to Menachem Begin, the follower of Jabotinsky. Yes, they have applied some terrorist activities against the British establishment. But where they targeted the British military they have always given notice and excluded innocent people to be hurt. So so much can be said about Arab terrorists or even the followers in Bali. Even there the Jews could give an example to the Arabs and Muslims. Sadly enough I must add.
Correct, the refugees problem was created and the Arab brothers never received them with dignity. No, they were kept in camps with promises to go home soon. In non of the Arab countries Palestinian refugees received rights as refugees, residents let alone let alone citizenship. With the exception of some Gulf states perhaps. We see till today in Lebanon what problems they have due to the refusal to grant rights as residents to the Palestinians. The West has always accepted political refugees on its soil. Each and every refugees and immigrant is granted residency with equal rights to the citizens.
No, Israel will never allow the right to return to the Palestinians. Israel is a Jewish State and tends to keep its Jewish majority. No one will engage in demographic suicide. Just like Malaysia wanted to get rid of a big percentage of Chinese to keep its Muslim majority, I guess. The only right to return for Palestinians will be to the new country to be established of course. Soon I hope.
As for the rejected deal by Arafat. I agree that the deal was not 100% for him. But just like in 1948, the Jews accepted a partition that was not in their favor but went along with it. Of course due to the constant Arab aggression and wars they conquered some more land of which they return the majority already. But Arafat could accept the deal and negotiate further to obtain a better condition rather than rejecting all and return home. But of course, negotiated deals between different cultures are not always easy and full of misunderstandings.
Nothing wrong with Hamas as a social organization winning the harts of the street. Especially not if the mainstream politicians are corrupt and inefficient. The same pattern is playing in all the Arab world and perhaps in Indonesia as well. On one side the authorities being corrupt and lacking to give humble life to the man in the street. On the other side religious organizations with an agenda providing what the state does not provide”¦, schooling, social benefits, health care etc. Even in the West where we have all the advantages they are active. Winning the harts by giving (Muslim) identity to the 2nd and 3rd generation (Muslim) immigrants. But all of this comes with a price and agenda.
So, that much on the Israel-Arab dispute as I do not want Aluang to complain that we are not on the Middle East forum.
Chalom,
Pieter -
dewaratugedeanom says:
Hassan said
They are a far cry from the early Muslim and the Caliphate that Muhammad (pbuh) had modeled and the ideal form of Islamic governance.
Abu Bakr, 1st caliph, dead after 2 years
Umar ibn al-Chattaab, 2nd caliph, murdered by a Muslim
Uthman ibn ‘Afaan, 3rd caliph, murdered by Muslims
Ali ibn abi Taalib, 4th caliph, murdered by MuslimsWant more?
An ideal form of governance indeed, no waste of time with deliberations or elections.What is despicable was perhaps their actions of using suicide bombings on innocent civilians.
I especially love the word “perhaps”.
Jokoboyo said
So you want the title as Muslim but you deny our code of conduct practices, is that means you may want to kill all milion of Muslim in the Afrika, Middle East, China because you dislike Syairah ? are you committing holocaust or planning to do so ? Hey brothers, Syairah Muslim is a legitimate religion trusted by milion of white good Muslims, why are you so bother ?
No need for a holocaust, Jokoboyo; boycott and isolation will do just fine. It may take a little longer but it’s much cleaner.
And you’re right, why bother? If Allah is in a good mood he will certainly not let the true believers down. If he is in a bad mood, he will send earthquake and tsunami. You know Allah already predestined it 50.000 years before the Big Bang? Verily, Allah is Wise, All-Knowing and Benevolent. -
Dewa and other non-Muslim,
what do you comment on the below ?
how come the pope was never ever an Arab (knowing there are good Christian living in Arab as minority), african, asian or latin american (hispanic) race? Why the pope has been always elected within Italy, Germany, Poland white-man? For the past thousands years? After all Christian is a universal religion? -
Jokoboyo
I can’t answer your question because I am not a Christian. All I know is that Jesus was a Jew, so not a white man, but that millions of white men followed him. -
pj_bali says:
Jokoboyo
Obviously you uncovered the conspiracy that the white man is using his control of Christianity to control the world! Resistance is futile.
First of all you are assuming that Christianity and Catholicism are the same thing. They are not. Christianity has several subgroups of which Catholics are probably the largest. The pope only speaks for Catholics and not all Christians. I’m going out on a limb here but I would guess that that the bulk of Arabic Christians are copts in egypt, orthodox Christians in iraq or syria and Catholics in lebanon/palestine. Only the Catholics would have influence on who becomes pope. As the bulk of cardinals come from europe – you have to be a cardinal before you become pope -chances are the popes will be european. There are I believe cardinals from all over the world so in theory the pope could come from anywhere. Just hasn’t happened yet. Maybe some Catholics in the forum would be willing to explain this further.
-
Daniel: However, I do disagree about the emphasis placed on Mary by some. I would say that (a) she was blessed by God for her virtue, and (b) provides a good model of what it means to be a virtuous Christian woman, and (c) she was called to a very holy task. But I would not be inclined to utter any words of prayer from my mouth to her because she was a human vessel (like you and I) who submitted to Gods will.
Jlta: Paragraph I. Thanks Daniel for your positive remark
Paragraph 2. It is a pity that we have differences in our Faith, because of His love; He has given us a free will. There are some of the sacraments, which we do not agree upon. Some are clearly stated in the Bible some are not a must, since they are not religion.
The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!” “Don’t be afraid, Mary; God has been gracious to you.
I would never compare myself to the Virgin Mary. She is immaculate meaning she was born with grace, full of grace without sin. When she said her “yes” she trusted God fully. She knew, she could be stoned to death, she would be mocked, she knew the crucifixion would happen for her baby and in all the 30 years she pondered it in her heart. No question asked. She suffered as a loving mother would with Christ walking up the Calvary. Definitely she is special to God.
She made millions of conversion; spiritual, emotional and physical healing all over the world, up to now she cares and look after her children. Most Catholics love her and they receive her favor through her intercession. Our own prayers become stronger because she intercedes for us.Daniel: Our God is with us. He hears us. There is one intercessor between God and man – Jesus Christ. So, for that reason, I would not offer prayers to another.
Jlta: The Lord said something like this “If two or three are praying together, I will be in their midst.” Praying alone, in/with the family or group and worldwide is different for God, the request becomes stronger. We ask our friend, mother, anybody before an exam, trip or sickness: “He, wish me luck.” “Hope you will have a safe trip” “My grand-ma is so sick, can you include her in your prayers, please. It is all charity and God wants us to pray for each other. Thus the same, we ask the Mother of Jesus to pray for us.
Another example: B is your best of friends; he has a family to feed. He failed many times for his job interviews. So tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. will be his last chance. He asks you, to please, pray for him. Would you pray for him? Yes, right? A no, would be lack of charity. We should pray for each other. Thus we are interceding for each other.
Thanks again and God bless,
-
Sylvester: Think deeply, Islam itself is not totally bad. Depends on how people interpret it. During middle age, islamic civilizations were at the highest. Science, technology, art, culture flourished. It is also tolerance to other religions. But the way that radical islam want by forcing sharia is totally different. Look at taliban and some part of africa. Only disaster!
Jlta: I very much agree with you, there could the best Moslem there is. Though somehow the teaching had become confusing for ordinary people, it is in their own hands, like some of them say ‘correct from within.”
-
Aluang: What happened? You were about to convert to Islam. I told you not to read too much of those anti-Islamic’s postings by morons hell bent on destroying Islam. Truth always persist.
Jlta: Don’t worry friend, I am too stable in my Faith. Take care of yourself and yours, that you spread the goodness of your Faith and in a good way.
Jlta: Both web-sites in the following are not quoting the Bible but giving their own arguments.
Women had no soul – The Book of Exodus
For a list of the seventy souls, turn to Genesis, chapter xlvi, where Dinah, Jacob’s daughter, and Sarah, Asher’s daughter, are mentioned among the seventy souls. It is certainly curious that there should have been only two daughters to sixty-eight sons. But perhaps the seventy souls refer only to sons, and the daughters are merely persons, not souls.Quoted from the Bible: Genesis 46. 7. His sons and his grandsons, his daughters and his grand-daughters – all his descendants – he took with him to Egypt.
Jlta: No mentioning of daughters and grand-daughters, having no souls.
Women do not have soul: Bible & Church
In the above web, some women think they are treated unfairly, fighting for their rights and to me they can say what they want but God has created women different than men, they themselves making the statement that “Women do not have soul” not the Bible not the church.
Thanks for your effort.
-
Thanks Julita.
When I say “I would not offer my prayer to another”, I mean that I would not pray to anyone other than God. But I do pray with others all the time. My wife and I pray togethor each night. I pray with a small group every Thursday night. Our church prays in corporate settings weekly. I meet business people in my city for prayer. Praying with the wider community of believers is essential to healthy Christian life. My comment was saying that I don’t pray to Mary or any other human that has died.
That being said… I did come from Catholic background so I know very well the doctrine of Mary and I believe that it is not a stumbling block in Christian community. My philosophy on Church is “in essentials – unity. in everything else – diversity”. Within my wifes family – one aunty is a benedictine nun in the Philippines and the other is a Christian church planter – both from the same family – both in unity over the essentials (Jesus saves – care for the poor – care for eachother), but diversity over the non-essentials (both have a high regard for the role of Mary, but one prays to her and the other doesn’t).
Comment on “Sharia Application”.
Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2025
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact
Hassan,
I am an Athesit and do not believe in God, let us make it clear.
I was reacting on those who constantly claimed in this forum that Muslims are superior (even with some % in a table) to “The Infidels” and claiming that the Jews are cursed by God. Being a Jew living in the West I have heard much more imbecilities. And quite frankly I look at life achievements of people in this world and can only conclude that 15 or 17 million Jews make more positives waves to contribute to a better world than all the so called true believers around.
Abraham with his single God, Moses with his 10 Commandments, Jesus with his second cheek always available for a second slap, then Freud, Marx, Einstein, all were intruders, revolutionaries, enemies of the Order. But god did they make waves and a better world!
For one I do not endorse what I quoted but if these fanatics only go by “their” book, than I somehow remember some of the religious history we had at school. And taking it out of the pure religious context I question the events in its real life issues and in the Pre-Islamic period. Remember that the Arabs were very advanced during the pre-Islamic period and we in the West still plunged in our dark middle ages, maybe still sitting in the tree high and dry. Things have changes since that time and after the spread of Islam.
As for the lineage, we can argue forever indeed. In the Jewish faith it would be passed by the mother so there you are, we are in disagreement already.
I did not attribute the word “bastard” that is just the name given to someone born out of wedlock. But I agree that there are other more descent way to call this type of children. Do I accuse Abram of adultery? No, but what do you call a man that sleeps with is pembantu? Perhaps there was consent by the wife but I do not know that. And yes, I am sure that you have heard worse and for sure by some fellow Jews. Who else could it come from?
To that I reply that you are too much plunged into you stigma about Jews. My reply is that all prosperous, free, democratic, law obeying countries have laws based on the Jewish faith and the Judeo-Christian faiths even Islam has adopted many laws directly out of Judaism. You can not deny that I suppose.
“¢ Judaism was the first to create the Shabbath, the day of God, i.e. the day of weekly mandatory rest. You imagine the joy of the Pharoes, always late in building the next pyramid.
“¢ Judaism prohibits slavery. You can imagine the sympathy of the Romans, the most significant wholesalers of free labor of the Antiquity.
“¢ It is said in the Bible: “The earth does not belong to man, but to God.” From this sentence a law is created, the automatic handing-over of real-estate every 49 years. You imagine the effect of such a law on the Popes of the Middle Ages and the builders of empires during the Renaissance.
Why persecutions?
Because no order, whatever the century, could satisfy them – since they were always excluded. To call everything in question, to see further, changing the world to change their destiny, such was the destiny of my Ancestors.
This is why the defenders of all established orders hate them.
– The anti-Semite of the right blames the Jews for having executed the Bolshevik revolution. It’s true: there were many of them, in 1917.
– The anti-Semite of the left blames the Jews for owning Manhattan. It’s true: there are many Jewish capitalists.
The reason is simple: religion, culture, and the revolutionary ideal on the one hand, stocks and banks on the other, are the only transportable values, the only possible country for those that do not have a country.
And now that there is a country, Anti-Semitism reappears from its ashes… – Sorry! From OUR ashes – and it’s called anti-Zionism! It used to be applied only to individuals; it is now applied to a country.
Israel is a ghetto – Jerusalem is Warsaw… The Nazis who besiege us speak Arabic! And if their crescent is sometimes disguised in a sickle, that’s simply for better trapping the liberal leftists of the world.
Pieter