Heretic Outreach
Jul 3rd, 2007, in News, by PatungThe government reaches out to heretics.
The head of the Bengkulu office of the Department of Religion (Depag), Mukhtaridi Baidjuri, has invited any members of non-orthodox Islamic groups to give up their strange beliefs and return to the fold of government approved Islam.
We are inviting them to return to the correct teachings, ie., those based on the Quran and hadiths of Muhammad.
He said there were many followers of heretical groups such as Ahmadiyah in Bengkulu and they often tried to spread their beliefs to others. In one village alone of North Bengkulu, called Sungai Hitam, there were 150 Ahmadiyah members, he worried. The Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) had already ruled that Ahmadiyah was unacceptable, he said, because Ahmadiyah recognised a prophet after Muhammad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Pakistan, whereas in true Islam God had no more need of prophets after Muhammad bin Abdullah.
The call had already been sent out:
We have already invited them to return to true Islam, but the problem is that whether they choose to listen to us or not is up to them.
He said no force could be used to sway them, only urging and asking. However if they insisted on keeping to their false beliefs they must not attempt to proselytize to others, because this could lead to things happening that no-one wanted, he said.
168 Comments on “Heretic Outreach”
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Sputjam says:
There are no contradictions in the koran. If there is one, then both the passages should be studied vigilantly.
On questions regarding proof of God, the children of Israel asked in similar manner as follows :-2:54 And when Moses said, “O my people, surely you have wronged yourselves with taking the calf – therefore repent to your Lord – thus fight your own souls – that is better for you by your Lord. Thus He accepted the repentance over them. Indeed it is He – Who redeems – the Merciful. 2:55 And when you said, “O Moses, we will not trust you until we see God physically”. Thus you were struck by the lightning and whilst you watched. 2:56 Then we raised you from after your death so that you are appreciative.
Those who are doubtful about God’s guidance2:23 And if you are doubtful from what We have transmitted upon Our servant – then bring forth from one chapter from any example – and call your witnesses from any other than God – if you are truthful. 2:24 And if you cannot do it – and certainly you will not be able to do it – thus prepare for yourself the fire – whose fuel is mankind and the rocks – all set for those who do not trust.
Surah 2:219 according to shiva’s references :-
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
My koranic reference said on similar verse :-
Hanging around pubs is unproductive Although you will not be burned in Hell for it Think about it carefully
2:219 They ask you about the wine (12:41) and convenient times (2:280). Tell them, “In both of them there are great misdemeanours and some benefits for mankind. And the misdemeanour is even greater from its benefit”. And they also ask you about “contribution”. Tell them, “Forgiving (7:199)”. That is how God explains to you His signs so that you use your common sense, 2:220 in this world and the hereafter. And they ask you about the orphans. Tell them, “Reforming for them – is good. And if you are living with them – thus they become your brethren. And God – He knows between the mischief and the reformers – and if it is the will of God – surely He can cause severe hardship on you. Indeed God is almighty – the Judge.
islam is submitting to God’s guidelines in the koran.
There are no verse indication any worship rituals.
But there are many verses that have similar meaning as the following :-There is nothing religious about the Qur’an All that is required of mankind is to do good deeds and good works
2:25 And deliver the good news to those who trust and to those who do the deeds of righteousness – Most certainly – for them is the garden – flowing from beneath it are rivers. Each of them is provided from it – from the fruits as provisions. They say, ‘this is exactly what was provided from before. And they were given with it which are similar’. And for them in it – mates who are cleansed – and they will abide therein forever.
Emphasis in the koran is for those who believe and do good deeds of righteousness. This messages is repeated many times like the following :-
Three fundamental beliefs – Religion is irrelevant
2:62 Indeed, those who trust, and those proclaimed to be guided, and the supporters and the Sobe’ans – any of them who trust God and the hereafter and do the deeds of virtuousness – thus for them the rewards by their Lord – and there shall be no fear over them – and they will not grieve.
For those who claims that prophet Mohamed married/rape a 9 year old child, please remember that this allegation was made by the very same people who wrote the hadith and sunnah to mislead the masses. Hadith and sunnah was not by God, so beware !
Instead of promoting God’s Book – religious scholars write from their own ideas They write something like the example in 2:80
2:79 Therefore, censure for those who write the Book with their hands and then they say, “This is as of by God for they wish to transact with its outlay cheaply. Therefore, censure for them from whatever their hands wrote. And censure for them from whatever they do. 2:80 And because they say, “The fire will not touch us except for few days”. Question them, Have you taken by God a pledge – thus God will not break His pledge”? Or do you say about God what you do not know”?
The Koran have a specific passage concerning minors being married as follows :-
2:221 And do not marry the pagan women until they believe. And do not marry the underage girls. Believing women are better from the pagan women although they allure you. And do not marry the idol worshipers (men/women) (musyrikeen) until they believe – and the slaves (men/women) who believe are better from the idol worshipers – although they might allure you
Therefore Mohamed cannot have broken the rules of the koran on purpose for a 9 year old girl.
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On the question of Abraham having two wives think again. The Koran never mentioned abraham having two wives, but was blessed with two sons from an aging wife.
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Arema says:
Shiva,
Brilliant posts! Love’em all !Cuk,
Thanks for the replies.Regarding the no overwriting of verses, or abrogation / official cancellation (just learned this term today), let me ask you about one example I know. I’ve read this Quran verse posted by one of you “to you is your religion and to me is my religion”, which Muslims said is the basis for inter-religion mutual respect and also not forcing one’s belief to others. I believe this is a Meccan verse. On the other hand, a few posts behind, Shiva quoted another verse “Invitation first, if they refuse, then war.” Muhammad said: “I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me”. How do you explain this? If you’re not forcing Islam to others, you violate the second verse. If you fight, you violate the first. If the second does not abrogate the first, how these two could coexist?
I’ve read your two long stories about “Christians” converted to Muslim. Well, let me say something about that:
Firstly, I can tell you now that both of them are actually Catholics, who had a weak foundation on Christianity from the start (I know I’m making enemies here, Julita will strike soon, but it has to be said). One of the main disagreement between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics believe that all religions are actually pointing to the same God and therefore should just respect each other and live in peace. Protestants have no problem to respect others from different religions and live peacefully with them, but we would never acknowledge that we are all praying to the same God. Never. We have a strong stand that God is unchanging from the beginning of time until forever. We believed that once He said A is the truth, He will not take back His word and said B is now the truth. What written in the Bible is consistent from the beginning until the end. Bible has some disagreement with Quran, and therefore can’t come from the same God. As simple as that.
Secondly, their conversion were after they found out that Islam was not actually as bad as it seems, or as bad as it told. Maybe. But it is a weak justification, as I have said in the Yvonne case. If you take away all the Muhammad part, I can accept what the 2 converts have confessed about Islam, who is God according to Islam, what is the words in prayer, wonderful! Yeah, because all of them was taken straight from the Bible!! LOL, I told you that Islam is a sour candy to me, this is the proof. It was a nice sweet candy before Muhammad turned it sour because of his situational-dependent abuse. Converting to Islam is like having a nice meal, a delicious burger with a packet of appetizing french fries, followed by a glass of ice Baygon! Those converts have no idea what’s next. They have just came into the sweet part only, and traded their salvation for it… sad.
Thirdly, regarding the doubtful concepts of Christianity highlighted in the confession:
1) Original Sin: Another wrong concept by the Catholics by saying that we all inherit the sin from Adam, which obviously violate Ezekiel 18:1-22. The correct concept is we inherit the sinful nature from Adam, and therefore could not be free from sin during our lifetime, whether it is from our mind, mouth, or doing. Sin disgusts God, and men/women with sin (which is everyone) are condemned to Hell. Covering / outweighing sin with our good deeds is like making an omelette with 2 good eggs and 1 rotten egg. It is still not edible and will be thrown away. Only Jesus can take away that sin from you and justify you in front of God.
2) Trinity: Arguably the most difficult concept to understand in Christianity. I must tell you frankly and honestly that even I don’t fully understand it. It is not written explicitly in the Bible. This conclusion about Trinity is drawn after reading the Bible as a whole. But since it is not written explicitly in the Bible, I believe God does not really require us to know this. Knowing / understanding Trinity is not a requirement for salvation. I can accept each component of the explanation about Trinity (there is one God, check. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three different persons, check). But when all those combined I still feel there is a missing link. Although unlikely, it is perfectly possible that Christians’ conceptualization about the Trinity until now is wrong, especially because it is not explicitly written in the Bible. I believe God will open my limited human mind and let me understand this once I meet Him in Heaven. For more reference: -
dewaratugedeanom says:
After Cukurungan’s (or his more literate helping Friend) onslaught on Hinduism on July 19th, let me put some things in perspective.
Incest in Hinduism ?
References abound even in the Rg Veda, showing that the perversion of brother-sister incest was introduced by the ancient Hindus :
Pushan is the lover of his sister [ Rg Ved VI.55.4 ] [ Apte 11 ] . Agni is the lover of his own sister [ Rg Ved X.3.3 ] [ Apte 11 ] . Ashvins are referred to as the sons of Savitar and Ushas who are brother and sister [ Apte 11 ]. The Ashvisns married Surya and Savitri who is their sister [ RV I.116.19 ] etc.etc.Vedic deities are mythological figures, they don’t refer to humans but to natural phenomena and forces beyond human control. Not unlike the ancient Greek gods they were given anthropomorphic features to explain their symbolism and interactions. Mythology also served to entertain people in a time when storytelling was the only communication medium. Well, maybe they should have come with a warning: “Don’t try this at home”.
Porn in Hindu Scripture ?
Pornography in Ramayana
Dr. Charles claims that ramayana contains much pornographic material and cannot be read in public. Etc etc.Same remark as above. The Ramayana and Mahabharata are epic stories that convey spiritual messages in a human and consequently also in a carnal context. Before the advent of prophetic religions, sexuality was considered an integral part of life and nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, it was exalted and sublimed to higher levels, not unlike the Islamic Sufi mystics used love poetry to express their intimate unification with Allah.
Lingam and Yoni?
Lingam and Yoni are the male and female sexual organs respectively. Hindus are allowed to worship anything – including sexual organs.Lingam and Yoni are not only symbols of fertility. They are a carnal representation of opposite (like male/female) forces in the cosmos and their interaction from which the continuation of the universe is dependent, compArable to the Yin/Yang philosophy in Chinese Taoism. Only idiots or malicious bigots believe that Hindus worship sexual organs as such.
Prostitution?
Bharat Natyam & The Brahmins
The Bharat Natyam is a dance performance which, because of the Brahmin media, has gained much recognition as a form of art. The celebrated Bharat Natya expert, Rukminii Devi, admits in a National Geographic video programme, that the Bharat Natya was really the art of Devadasi (temple prostitutes) to please their audience and admirers. This is the reason why you might have seen various Bharatha Natya’s postures in Hindu temples.Prostitution is a socio-economic phenomenon from all times. It is called the oldest profession in the world and has nothing to do with religion as such. Its roots lie in the lack of regular sexual gratification for certain members of society and/or in an unbalanced sex-drive, mostly in the male population. Supply meets demand and through times societies have tried to come to terms with it by various means, a.o. by sacralizing it (temple prostitution), by regulating it (closed districts or buildings in secular societies) or by sweeping it under the carpet by arranging misyar marriages (Islamic societies).
The Kamasutra
Brahminism has also created Kamasutra – a set of instructions on how to have sexual intercourse. Some of the postures detailed in Kamasutra are so complex that they only be performed with the help of one or more ASSISTANTS!Brahminism did not create the Kamasutra. It was written by Vatsyayana, an adherent of the Nastika (heterodox) and atheist philosophy of Susuksita Carvaka (cultured hedonism). It doesn’t belong to mainstream Hinduism because it does not acknowledge the authority of the Vedas. But what the heck, it doesn’t hurt, it’s fun and gymnastic and it makes you laugh. Aren’t Muslims allowed to laugh?
Polytheism?
The various deities in Hinduism are but manifestations of the one and only brahman (note, not with capital B), the underlying and encompassing principle of the universe and everything in it. Because it transcendents reality and (still) cannot be completely known by the brain, its manifestations have been given different names that represent attributes or aspects which can be grasped by the intellect. Hence the 3rd bait of the Mantram Trisandhya, the most important prayer in Hinduism:
Sanskrit version:
Om Tvam Sivah Tvam Mahadeva
Isvarah Paramesvarah
Brahma Visnusca Rudrasca
Purusah ParikirtitahTranslated:
Oh God, Thou are named Shiva, Mahadewa, Iswara, Parameswara, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra and Purusa.Why does Islam condemn Hinduism being a polytheist religion when also Allah is given 99 names?
To recapitulate:
Hinduism = not so much a religion, more like a culture – certainly not without flaws – but always open for new thoughts and developments, respectfully celebrating life, beauty and harmony during its odalan (temple festivals) and aiming for spiritual enlightment and liberation (moksha).
Islam = politically inspired ideology, deceitfully disguised as religion, concocted by a 7th century probably illiterate Arab named Muhammad, who appears by the words of his own biographers as a megalomaniac, murderous, rapist and psychopathic gang leader seeking wealth by collecting slaves and booty and trying to establish a totalitarian hegemony.
Make your choice.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
Sputjam,
aluang anak bayang said:-
Middle eastern scientists believed that there are 360 bones in a human, contrary to what is widely agreed among top scientists (minus moslem scientists) that there are 307 to 309 bones (I think this is the figure as I left my magazine at my office).
never came across such a passage in the koran. maybe you care to share some thoughts on where you got this from.
OK, I found it! The magazine is ‘DISCOVER – Science, Technology, and the Future’ July edition, so it is still available at all book stores. Page 39 tells you average 307 joints as accepted in medical communities, whereas your all-knowing God said there are 360 joints. Oopsey, my goof, I said bones, anyway it is still quranic idiocies.
On the same pages, it quotes moslem top geologist El-Naggar as saying that earthquake that trigger the tsunami and killed quarter of a million lives were punishment over the sins of the west because poor Achehnese and Javanese tolerate the immoral behaviour of tourists.
Cuk, next time you buy a Hindu’s liver, make sure a moslem doctor transplants it for you. 🙂
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Shiva says:
Sputjam Says:
The Koran have a specific passage concerning minors being married as follows :-
2:221 And do not marry the pagan women until they believe. And do not marry the underage girls. Believing women are better from the pagan women although they allure you. And do not marry the idol worshipers (men/women) (musyrikeen) until they believe – and the slaves (men/women) who believe are better from the idol worshipers – although they might allure you
Therefore Mohamed cannot have broken the rules of the koran on purpose for a 9 year old girl.
THE KORAN DOES NOT HAVE SPECIFIC PASSAGE CONCERNING MINORS BEING MARRIED.
Except the above passage, that you have abrogated.
Now what will allah say when he catches you changing his unholy book.
All the accepted translations of 2:221.
2.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.PICKTHAL: Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.
SHAKIR: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.
You have been caught out as a liar and a discrator of the koran.
Shame on you
2:42
Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
Cuk, next time you buy a Hindu’s liver, make sure a moslem doctor transplants it for you.
And a halal certificate, you know the Dirty Hindus have no qualms for selling porky livers to Muslims.
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Denny Crane says:
Lock and Load for Shiva II
There was no verse prior to 5,90 forbidding alcohol, therefore it was allowed.
First, I believe Islam does not merely points out the right or wrong of an act. Instead, it gives its followers a space to digest information and exercise their free will accordingly. There are many verses in the Quran prior to 5.90 which relate to self-destructive acts and rather than setting this is right and that is wrong, it provides guidance as how to decide which is what. With respect to alcohol, following your assumption that there is no verse prior to 5.90, Muslims are to exercise their free will on the issue of drinking. Up until now I have never found any article which validly describes the prophet or the khalifahs consuming alcohol.
Second, there is a significant difference between the concept of allowance and prohibition. The absence of one does not necessarily mean the applicability of the other. The absence of prohibition does not suggest that an act is allowed, nor that the absence of allowance does not imply that an act is prohibited. The vacuum of standard cannot solely be interpreted as either allowance or prohibition. I wish to take your attention to a shahih hadith (undisputed among all schools of Islam) when the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) acted before 5.90 was revealed with respect to khamar. In the hadith the prophet advised a man to change gradually his three bottle wine to two to one to just plain water. In this situation, the prophet knew that there is a vacuum of standard with respect to wine. It is wise of him not to allow nor to prohibit it, yet he encouraged (not allow or prohibit) the man not to drink. I would assume the prophet’s decision was based on verses related to self-destructive acts as pointed out in my first argument.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm
With respect to verse 2:106 as your underlying premise, I would say we need to observe at the context. First, we need to establish which ayah does 2.106 refer to? Qur’an or other scriptures or revelation before Qur’an (references among others available in 2:105 10:75, 28:85 and 22:52). Second, to whom and in which time frame does the ayah 2.106 reveal to? In time of Prophet of Mohammed or other? (I invite you to observe the story line of 2.106 which can be found in 2.105).
Hopefully my explanation is sufficient.
Cheers
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Sputjam, re your re-composed ayat 2:221
You must be ashamed to learn that someone you extolled was a wily old fox who sagged a 9 years old girl at age 53. This is the same wily old fox that tell you he was handed a divine book with scientific miracles and guidance for all mankind to follow. Indonesian moslems, if only they knew, would be put off with this unsanctified sexual reunion between a preadolescence child and a grandfather figure. Allah sanctioned it, and a good moslem should accept pedophilia as one of God given right. You are wavering in your faith, brother.
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There was no verse prior to 5,90 forbidding alcohol, therefore it was allowed.
forbid.
Definition: outlaw, prohibit an action.
Antonyms: allow, approve, authorize, let, permit, sanction.
GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Denny Crane Says:
With respect to verse 2:106 as your underlying premise, I would say we need to observe at the context.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004246.php
dewaratugedeanom
Thanx for your above post, it was very helpful.
There was a lot there that I did not know
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””-
Chucky
Proof of islamic hypocrisy.
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2006/06/sex-and-islam.html
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Lock and Load for Shiva III (Final),
GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Prohibition and allowance relate heavily with law and just to share the view, the concept of law on both plus the condition of vacuum of standard is far more complex than a plain understanding of literal approach. Nevertheless, you have every right to define as you like.
Clearly, even in international practice, there are three methods of interpretation adopted by states and international organization, viz, ordinary meaning, contextual and teleological approaches. However, again you have every right to interpret anything on any method you prefer.
Hopefully you can find peace.
Cheers.
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Cukurungan says:
Arema :
Regarding the no overwriting of verses, or abrogation / official cancellation (just learned this term today), let me ask you about one example I know. I’ve read this Quran verse posted by one of you “to you is your religion and to me is my religion”, which Muslims said is the basis for inter-religion mutual respect and also not forcing one’s belief to others. I believe this is a Meccan verse. On the other hand, a few posts behind, Shiva quoted another verse “Invitation first, if they refuse, then war.” Muhammad said: “I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me”. How do you explain this? If you’re not forcing Islam to others, you violate the second verse. If you fight, you violate the first. If the second does not abrogate the first, how these two could coexist?.Cukurungan:
Your confusion in reading and understanding of Islamic teaching are understandable. The action and deeds written in Quran and Hadist shall not be always interpreted become a generic Moslem obligation or God order to all of us but it rather to be applied upon its specific context.
Let take an example in Quran, it was written that the Moses friend killed an innocent boy because the Moses friend knew if he don’t kill the boy once day the boy will grow-up become monster for his parents. In other story, God ordered Moses followers to kill each other in order to ask repent for their big sin in worshipping of the gold cow. Of course, afore mentioned deeds shall not applicable for us because we has our own specific obligation depending on our respective position in the community but please be noticed that every Moslem or the Islam follower have a generic obligation or so called the 5 pillars of Islam in which consist of Sahadat, Sholat, Puasa, Zakat and Haji bagi yg mampu. So it is very crystal clear that forcing other to Islam exclude the Moslem generic obligation. I don’t violate any verses in Quran if I don’t force some one convert to Islam because I am only a moslem and not prophet.
The obligations in Islam are basically classified as the following:
1) Prophet obligation
2) Government or Ruler obligation
3) Cleric Obligations
4) Umat obligation.
The obligation of the prophet is much heavier than the rest, obligation of the rulers is much heavier than Cleric, and obligation of the cleric is much heavier than us. For an ordinary Moslem like me, 5 pillars Islam is already too hard obligation because I am only a dirty Moslem.
You mixed between the prophet obligation and the ummah obligation. The obligation to fight un-believers was the prophet obligation therefore our prophet said “God ordered me to fight” and not “God ordered you to fight” but it does not mean there is no obligation for us to fight.Arema :
Firstly, I can tell you now that both of them are actually Catholics, who had a weak foundation on Christianity from the start (I know I’m making enemies here, Julita will strike soon, but it has to be said).Cukurungan :
Sorry friend please be fair here Jusuf Este said that he was not Catholics
My own personal story begins on the Texas/Mexican border in December of 1990. I was born a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant and at that time I was working very actively toward preaching “Born Again” Christianity to anyone and everyone that would listen. I was definitely NOT LOOKING FOR ISLAM. In fact, religious leaders of Christianity and Judaism would have us believe, that Islam is a cult of some kind with the followers worshipping a black box in the desert and kissing the ground five times a day.Arema :
One of the main disagreement between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics believe that all religions are actually pointing to the same God and therefore should just respect each other and live in peace. Protestants have no problem to respect others from different religions and live peacefully with them, but we would never acknowledge that we are all praying to the same God. Never.Cukurungan :
I don’t know who is God of Protestants but my God is the following:1 Say: He is Allah, the One!
2 Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3 He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4 And there is none compArable unto HimMy God is a creator of Universe and everything in it and He doesn’t stay either in heaven or hell but He stay above earth and heaven and nothing else above Him.
My God never grieved and feeling pain upon the human sins because My God already knew 50000 years before he created the universe who are sinner and who are not.Arema :
We have a strong stand that God is unchanging from the beginning of time until forever. We believed that once He said A is the truth, He will not take back His word and said B is now the truth. What written in the Bible is consistent from the beginning until the end. Bible has some disagreement with Quran, and therefore can’t come from the same God. As simple as that.Cukurungan:
The current Bible is a book of full contradiction from the beginning until the end otherwise Church in Europe will be full of attendant and not became Museum, (Richard Miniter lives in Brussels and is a correspondent for The London Sunday Times. He said, “When, as an American in Europe, you tell Europeans that you go to church on Sunday, they look at you like a museum piece something strange.”)
Here below some bible contradiction:God is seen and heard [Ex 33:23 / Ex 33:11 / Gen 3:9,10 / Gen 32:30 / Is 6:1 / Ex 24:9-11]
VS
God is invisible and cannot be heard [John 1:18 / John 5:37 / Ex 33:20 / 1 Tim 6:16]God is satisfied with his works
“God saw all that he made, and it was very good.” [Gen 1:31]
VS
God is dissatisfied with his works.
“The Lord was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain.” [Gen 6:6]War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
________________________________________
Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
Further detail check
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.htmlDid John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?
(a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
(b) No (John 1:32,33)Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?
(a) Yes (John 1:32, 33)
(b) No (Matthew 11:2)According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
(a) “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
(b) “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)Further detail check
http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htmArema :
Secondly, their conversion were after they found out that Islam was not actually as bad as it seems, or as bad as it told. Maybe. But it is a weak justification, as I have said in the Yvonne case. If you take away all the Muhammad part, I can accept what the 2 converts have confessed about Islam, who is God according to Islam, what is the words in prayer, wonderful! Yeah, because all of them was taken straight from the Bible!! LOL, I told you that Islam is a sour candy to me, this is the proof. It was a nice sweet candy before Muhammad turned it sour because of his situational-dependent abuse. Converting to Islam is like having a nice meal, a delicious burger with a packet of appetizing french fries, followed by a glass of ice Baygon! Those converts have no idea what’s next. They have just came into the sweet part only, and traded their salvation for it”¦ sad.Cukurungan:
To convert a beggar and a kid is a piece of cake but friend you are a Good Protestant don’t only cry and show to God you are strong Christian while all those convert clearly indicated their email address why you don’t try to remind them the danger of “a glass of ice Baygon” and let me know how the result of the mighty Protestant and Evangelist retain back their follower. -
aluang anak bayang stated:-
OK, I found it! The magazine is ‘DISCOVER – Science, Technology, and the Future’ July edition, so it is still available at all book stores. Page 39 tells you average 307 joints as accepted in medical communities, whereas your all-knowing God said there are 360 joints. Oopsey, my goof, I said bones, anyway it is still quranic idiocies.
But where in the koran did it say there are 360 bones in the body?
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shiva declared that am a liar.
who would you believe?
the translations of koran from people embroiled in paganism and altered God’s words, or someone who discovered the truth behind the “facade of islamic religion”.
Shiva himself have no proof of the non-existant of God and claimed to be an atheist. Then clearly he is a man wondering around without knowledge.
My guide is the Koran, and the best translations are the simplest to understand.
I do not use orthodox translations as a guide. there are too many contradictions. In orthodox translations, worship is regularly mentioned, but never instructed in detail.
From my understanding, there are no requirement for worshipping God. Otherwise, instructions and method of worship would have been written in the koran very clearly.It is now, up to shiva to show proof of God’s non-existance. Otherwise, the readers that considers me a liar, will include shiva in similar category.
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Falcon says:
How many people understood the Holly Books. It seems there are too many supposedly experts who voiced their minds ” I am right and everybody else is wrong”. The intepretation is for each own heart and mind need not to be voiced. GOD already give you the freedom to speak to him in your daily prayer. Voice only compasion for the help of all living beings including the earth, GOD’s creation. The human created by GOD is moving toward the destruction of all living things evidence by; war, I am right you are wrong attitude, the incorrect interpretation of democarcy, the gap between the rich and poor, the ones who hold a job vs the ones who are jobless, destroying the tropical forest to satisfy craving for wealth, dregging the earth so coal can burn turbines to produce electricty and polute the air, extract copper and gold so the money can be corrupted and very little left to educate the smart Indonesians who are poor. No one religion is better than the other. There is no guarantee.
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@Cukurungan:
Here’s one for your Western Anglo feminist Ivonne Ridley, political editor of Islam Channel TV in London:
The little story comes from Islam’s Sunnah and is about Adam and Eve in Paradise eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of eternity and power. The tree’s branches were intertwined and it bore fruit which the angels ate to live eternally. Then, Adam went inside the tree to hide and Eve cut the tree and it bled. The feather that covered Adam’s and Eve’s private parts dropped off. So, Allah spoke Tabari I:278 “Now, Eve, as you caused the tree to bleed, you will bleed every new moon, and you snake – the snake still being a camel walking on 4 feet – I will cut off your feet and you will walk slithering on your face.” Tabari I:279 ” it was a tree which made whoever ate from it defecate. But there must be no faeces in Paradise.” Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is my obligation to make her bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent’. Zayd, Muhammad’s adopted son said: ‘Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of the world menstruate and are stupid’.
Journalist Ivonne Ridley converted to Islam after being captured and held prisoner by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Was Allah right?
Hello, feminists of the world, feel free to comment!
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Sputjam
shiva declared that am a liar.
who would you believe?
Well for a start
You quoted the the below:
2:221 And do not marry the pagan women until they believe. And do not marry the underage girls………………….
Now it is very simple for you to enlighten us by revealing which respectable translation you used.
who would you believe?
the translations of koran from people embroiled in paganism and altered God’s words,
Translator Ali, Abdullah Yusuf, 1872-1952
Translator Pickthall, Marmaduke William, 1875-1936
Translator Shakir, M. H. (Mohammad Habib), 1866-1939Well I did not do the translations, I quoted translations by the above gentlemen.
Question, are the above highly respected gentlemen pagans?
Question, did these renowned translators and commentators of the Qur’an, alter any of allah’s words.
Your version of 2:221 doesnt exist.
You were the culprit who altered the text in an attempt to throw the debate off course, by bringing up the subject of mohammed’s infant bride.
I have seen no proof whatsoever of the existence of god or any other deity, or even of anything remotely supernatural. Therefore I state that there is no god, and it is the lack of evidence of there being a god, is proof enough there is no god.
But because there is no proof that god exists, however, does not mean he (or some variant) does not, indeed exist.
But anyone who cannot acknowledge that there is room for much uncertainty should not be trusted with sharp objects or large machinery, because their sanity is in doubt, only the insane believe in the irrational, fully and with no doubt.
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Summary of the teachings of Shiva
Be kind. Be compassionate. Be honest. Be sincere. Be truthful. Be bold. Be pure. Be wise. Be virtuous. Enquire: ‘who am I’? Know thy-Self and be free.
And the truth from the koran ;-
“‘Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.” (The Message 6:114 )
“We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous. ” (The Message 4:105)
“And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.” (The Message 5:48)
(Time and time again, the koran emphasis doing good deeds and not ritual worship.)
The definition of virtuousness without religion or rituals.
2:177 Virtuousness is not by focusing to the East or the West. However, virtuousness is to trust God, and the day of the hereafter, and the universal energies(malaikat), and the Books and the prophets. And they give their money that they love for themselves – to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and those on the path – and those who appeal – and those who are vigilant – and they uphold their commitments and endow its purity – and they fulfilled their promises when they promise. And they persevere at the time of adversity and hardship and also during calamity. That is they – who are the truthful – and that is they who are – the ones – observant.
In the koran there is no requirement for rituals. The message in the koran is not about religion. Anyone who practises religion, the chances is that he is one of the idol worshippers/pagans. This category would include people such as these –
Translator Ali, Abdullah Yusuf, 1872-1952
Translator Pickthall, Marmaduke William, 1875-1936
Translator Shakir, M. H. (Mohammad Habib), 1866-1939If they practise ritual worship.
The koran warns mankind regarding pagan worship/idol worship/clerics, preaches, monks.
But Muslims, like the Jews and the Christians, have abandoned the messages in the koran and the earlier scriptures. They are not the true “submitters”, as “submitters” will commit themselves to the guidelines as dictated in the koran.
Not many Muslims follow the dictates of the koran. They will do the rituals five daily prayers, go to mosques etc due to what was done by their forefathers, without questioning the true message.
Messages in the koran asks mankind to use common sense and be observant to God’s creation.
If you follow the orthodox Muslim thinkers, they will tell you the opposite.Those who follow their parents’ religion will disbelieve God’s Book.
2:170. And when it is said to them, “Follow whatever was transmitted by God”, they say, “Never! We will only follow whatever we found over it of our forefathers”. Although their forefathers never used their common sense – and they were never guided?
Earlier on, there was a comment made due to “death by stoning” on a girl made pregnant by his brother in Iran.
There is only one punishment that was mentioned in the koran, and that is for zina. 100 stripes for both man and woman. Death by stoning was never mentioned, except in the hadith. So it is up to the reader to establish the truth from falsehood.On the subject of Mohamed’s infant bride, this was brought on by someone else. I had to correct what I thought was a false statement. I still stand by the translated verse 2.221.
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Cukurungan said:
My God is a creator of Universe and everything in it and He doesn’t stay either in heaven or hell but He stay above earth and heaven and nothing else above Him.
My God never grieved and feeling pain upon the human sins because My God already knew 50000 years before he created the universe who are sinner and who are not.ISLAM AND PREDESTINATION
Reading Cukurungan’s statement teaches us one thing: If all men and women are predestined to heaven or hell, then faith doesn’t matter. Good works are no more valuable than bad ones. Rituals are ridiculous. Martyrdom is madness. Eat, drink, and fornicate, for a backrub sealed our fate.
Tabari I:306 “The Messenger said, “Allah created Adam and then rubbed Adam’s back with his right hand and brought forth his progeny. Then He said, ‘I have created these as the inhabitants of Paradise.’ Then he rubbed his back with His left hand and said, ‘I have created those for the Fire, and they will act as the inhabitants of the Fire.’ A man asked, ‘O Messenger, how is that? Muhammad replied, ‘When Allah creates a human being for Paradise, He employs him to act as the inhabitants of Paradise, and he will enter Paradise. And when Allah creates a human being for the Fire, He will employ him to act as the inhabitants of the Fire, and will thus make him enter the Fire.'”
Islam confirmed this fatalistic right and left hand stuff in a Bukhari Hadith and then again in the Qur’an’s 56th surah al-Waki’a.
Bukhari:V6B60N473 “Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in the Hell Fire. His happy or miserable fate is predetermined for him.” The Qur’an says: Qur’an 56:8 “Those of the right hand – how happy will be those of the right hand! Those of the left hand – how unhappy will be those of the left hand! …Who will be honored in the Garden of Bliss; a number of the earlier peoples, and a few of the later ages, on couches wrought of gold reclining face to face. Youth of never-ending bloom [bigbreasted virgins and silky boys] will pass round. Cups and decanters full of sparkling wine [0% alcohol?], they shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted [Viagra?]. And such fruits as they fancy, bird meats that they relish and companions pure and beautiful with big eyes like pearls within their shells as a reward.” Qur’an 56:33 “Unending and unforbidden, exalted beds, and maidens incompArable. We have formed them in a distinctive fashion and made them virgins, loving companions matched in age, for the sake of those of the right hand.”The next time you hear Muslims condemn other faiths or the West for its sexual decadence, ask them to read their Qur’an.
The pornographic pictures of Western women found in Bali bomber and defender of the faith Imam Samudra’s laptop when he was captured were they visions of paradisiacal houris [spotless virgins]?
Now this is what will happen to the “lefties” who are not allowed to enter Allah’s Bordello:
Qur’an 56:41 “But those of the left hand – how unhappy those of the left hand. They will be in the scorching hot wind and boiling water, under the shadow of thick black smoke, neither cool nor agreeable. …They will be gathered together on a certain day which [like their fate] is predetermined. Then you, the erring and the deniers will eat Zaqqoom [a thorn tree]. Fill your bellies with it, and drink scalding water, lapping it up like female camels raging of thirst and diseased. Such will be their entertainment, their welcome on the Day of Doom…the welcome of boiling water and the entertainment of roasting in Hell. This is indeed the ultimate truth.” According to the “ultimate truth” only 1 in 1,000 people will avoid “the entertainment of roasting while lapping up thorns and scalding water.”So, Friends, rejoice and don’t give a f*ck because everything is already preordained by Allah the Almighty.
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Denny Crane said:
With respect to verse 2:106 as your underlying premise, I would say we need to observe at the context. First, we need to establish which ayah does 2.106 refer to? Qur’an or other scriptures or revelation before Qur’an (references among others available in 2:105 10:75, 28:85 and 22:52). Second, to whom and in which time frame does the ayah 2.106 reveal to? In time of Prophet of Mohammed or other? (I invite you to observe the story line of 2.106 which can be found in 2.105).
If someone offers me a drink do I have to check all this sh*t before saying yes or no? Aduh! I’d rather die from thirst.
Who is this wanker? An ustad?
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Denny Crane said:
With respect to verse 2:106 as your underlying premise, I would say we need to observe at the context. First, we need to establish which ayah does 2.106 refer to? Qur’an or other scriptures or revelation before Qur’an (references among others available in 2:105 10:75, 28:85 and 22:52). Second, to whom and in which time frame does the ayah 2.106 reveal to? In time of Prophet of Mohammed or other? (I invite you to observe the story line of 2.106 which can be found in 2.105).
dewaratugedeanom, ha, I was going to respond in exactly the same tone as you. This supposedly ‘easy to understand’ book of revealation brought about so much sufferings to the Indonesians. Isn’t it time that we acknowledge that Allah has failed mankind with his ‘book of confusion’?
Re Cuk’s comment,
….. For an ordinary Moslem like me, 5 pillars Islam is already too hard obligation because I am only a dirty Moslem.
I have to disagree with you at this junture. Cuk, you are a GOOD moslem, bro. I mean it. Alhumdullilah. I have read most of your postings and you do not sway. Keep up the good work cos you follow the tenets of islam to the dot. Bad moslems are those who changed quranic verses, and try to propagate it as islamic teaching. I see a few here.
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I still stand by the translated verse 2.221.
The disputed verse concerns marriage to non-believers and pagans.
Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman. Even though she allure you. Nor marry (your girls) to Unbelievers until they believe: a slave man who believes is better than an Unbeliever even though he allure you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of Bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: that they may receive admonition.
Sputjam has changed/replaced Nor marry (your girls) (daughters) to Unbelievers until they believe: with this: And do not marry the underage girls.
Well Sputjam still has not given us a link to support his claim.
I am there-fore calling Sputjam a liar, and what better source do I have to back me up.
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da’wah and Guidance.
Sputjam
Now it is very simple for you to enlighten us by revealing which respectable translation you used, thus proving that you are not a liar.
And the truth from the koran.
Some-times the truth can be very ugly, so ugly that Mohammed doesnt want you to know.
Qur’an 5:101
“Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.”
And for those that found the truth
Qur’an 5:102
“Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”Doesnt seem like a very trustful god to me
Qur’an 13:27
“Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.'”Qur’an 33:21
“You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.”http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TRPKUKE7KVEHTHJSH/post13
Earlier on, there was a comment made due to “death by stoning” on a girl made pregnant by his brother in Iran.
There is only one punishment that was mentioned in the koran, and that is for zina. 100 stripes for both man and woman. Death by stoning was never mentioned, except in the hadith.Yes it was me that made the comment, to show how incest is wide spread within the islamic world, and how the victim of rape is punished.
You are not only a liar but you have a sick mind to even consider that a brother raping his sister is ZINA (adultery, fornication, having sexual intercourse without being married to the person.)
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Sputjam, mistranslating quranic verses by intent, I held you responsible for the thousands of innocent lives lost in the tsunami and earthquake.
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I wonder how many aethist actually spend so much time studying the koran and other islamic religion literatue.
Dig this.
Those people in saudi are not Muslims. They are Arab pagans. these were the same people Muhamed was sent to be amongst. If you follow their translation, the chances are that you will end up being pagans, worshipping stones, throwing stones at stones in Mecca. Most Muslims will readily said that they believe in God, but are blindly lead to worship stones.
God warns mankind against idol worship.
So please stop practising the religion of your forefathers and serve God by doing good deeds and be righteous. Your fate in the next world will be judged by your deeds for the believers.Shiva posted –
Qur’an 5:101“Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.”
My comment – passages that are confusing or contradicts earlier ones require further scrutiny. I will come back to you on this.
with regards to ZINA, 100 lashes to both parties. Relationship between parties are irrelevant.
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Dewaratu:
Hello, feminists of the world, feel free to comment!
Cukurungan :
I am feelings un-happy no one response to your appeal. But don’t be upset, two article below would answer your appeal.
Unmasked: the veiled white Muslim convert whose great grandmother was a suffragette
By NEIL SEARS – More by this author » Last updated at 23:00pm on 29th December 2006Beneath the veil was Elaine Atkinson
Top of FormBottom of Form
She was presented by Channel 4 as an authentic – but anonymous – voice of moderate British Islam.
And on Christmas Day the veiled woman described only as “Khadijah” was given a national televison platform for propagating her views in an “alternative Christmas message” designed to rival the Queen’s.
She told viewers Jack Straw was wrong to criticise the veil, claiming concealing facial features “liberated” women.
But the Daily Mail can now unveil “Khadijah” – and reveal that she is in fact Elaine Atkinson, an English convert to Islam who travels the country working for a radical Muslim group trying to take political control of Pakistan.
And despite her presentation by Channel 4 as a moderate, in the past the 38-year-old has described non-believers as “rats in cages going round on a treadmill” of consumerism, and declares she would like to see Britain’s pubs converted into mosques.
Since going through an islamic marriage ceremony with a British-born Muslim of Pakistani origin, Miss Atkinson – a fromer radical feminist – has become known as Khadijah Iqbal.
But her rejection of her English roots caused a rift with her family, which has a long history of military and police service.
Her great-grandmother was a suffragette, and her brother is currently serving as a soldier in Afghanistan, she claimed.
Atkinson, a mother of one, was approached by Channel 4 to give the controversial alternative Christmas message after the original veiled woman chosen, Khadija Ravat, a 33-year-old islamic teacher, withdrew because of negative publicity.
Channel 4 said it would be veiling her true identity, along with her face, to enable viewers to focus on her words instead of her personality.
But the story of her rejection of her traditional English background, and her determination to embrace radical Islam, is a fascinating one.
She was born in the army barracks town of Tidworth in Wiltshire in 1968, to father Brian Atkinson, then a crane driver at a military depot, and mother Gillian.
At the time the family was living in police accommodation, because her paternal grandfather Francis was a police constable in the war department.
Atkinson led a normal English childhood, and after being schooled locally without any contact with Muslims, left the countryside for London and became a social worker.
But in 1996 she suddenly became interested in the koran, and started attending the Regent’s Park Mosque in the centre of the capital.
Atkinson said: “Much to the shock and horror of my family and friends I embraced Islam.
“My friends, family and colleagues were very keen to express their negative views.
“I had always been known as a radical Feminist and had dutifully continued the family tradition of following in the footsteps of my great-grandmother, who was a suffragette.
“Much to my greatgrandmother ‘s horror (if she were still here to express it) I was soon to discover that Feminism and Islam went together like oil and water.
“I realised Feminism promoted the very thing it protested against: oppression of women.”
Atkinson went on, in an essay published on the Internet for fellow Muslims: “When I see large numbers of non-believers I feel very sad for them as they remind me of rats or gerbils in cages going round and round on a treadmill, believing that they are fulfilling their sole purpose in life and reaching their true destiny (which is Argos).Experience of a Converted Hindu Woman
My Experiences and How I Find that Islam does not Oppress Women
by by Sister NoorI came from a purely Hindu family where we were always taught to regard ourselves (i.e. women) as beings who were eventually to be married off and have children and serve the husband – whether he was kind or not. Other than this I found that there were a lot of things which really oppressed women, such as:
* If a woman was widowed, she would always have to wear a white sari (costume), eat vegetarian meals, cut her hair short, and never re-marry. The bride always had to pay the dowry (bridal money) to the husband’s family. And the husband could ask for anything, irrespective of whether the bride would have difficulty giving it.
* Not only that, if after marriage she was not able to pay the full dowry she would be both emotionally and physically tortured, and could end up being a victim of “kitchen death” where the husband, or both the mother-in-law and the husband try to set fire to the wife while she is cooking or is in the kitchen, and try to make it look like an accidental death. More and more of these instances are taking place. The daughter of a friend of my own father’s had the same fate last year!
* In addition to all this, men in Hinduism are treated literally as among the gods. In one of the religious Hindu celebrations, unmarried girls pray for and worship an idol representing a particular god (Shira) so that they may have husbands like him. Even my own mother had asked me to do this. This made me see that the Hindu religion which is based on superstitions and things that have no manifest proof , but were merely traditions which oppressed women could not be right.
Subsequently, when I came to England to study, I thought that at least this is a country which gives equal rights to men and women, and does not oppress them. We all have the freedom to do as we like, I thought. Well, as I started to meet people and make new friends, learn about this new society, and go to all the places my friends went to in order to “socialise” (bars, dance halls, etc.). I realised that this “equality” was not so true in practice as it was in theory.
Outwardly, women were seen to be given equal rights in education, work, and so forth, but in reality women were still oppressed in a different, more subtle way. When I went with my friends to those places they hung out at, I found everybody interested to talk to me and I thought that was normal. But it was only later that I realised how naïve I was, and recognised what these people were really looking for. I soon began to feel uncomfortable, as if I was not myself: I had to dress in a certain way so that people would like me, and had to talk in a certain way to please them. I soon found that I was feeling more and more uncomfortable, less and less myself, yet I could not get out. Everybody was saying they were enjoying themselves, but I don’t call this enjoying.
In these days of so called “society of equal rights”, you are expected to have a boyfriend (or you’re weird!) and to not be a virgin. So this is a form of oppression even though some women do not realise it. When I came to Islam, it was obvious that I had finally found permanent security. A religion, a belief that was so complete and clear in every aspect of life. Many people have a misconception that Islam is an oppressive religion, where women are covered from head to toe, and are not allowed any freedom or rights. In fact, women in Islam are given more rights, and have been for the past 1400 years, compared to the only-recently rights given to non-Muslim women in some western and some other societies. But there are, even now, societies where women are still oppressed, as I mentioned earlier in relation to Hindu women.
Muslim women have the right to inheritance. They have the right to run their own trade and business. They have the full right to ownership, property, disposal over their wealth to which the husband has no right. They have the right to education, a right to refuse marriage as long as this refusal is according to reasonable and justifiable grounds. The Qur’an itself, which is the Word of God, contains many verses commanding men to be kind to their wives and stressing the rights of women. Islam gives the right set of rules, because they are NOT made by men, but made by God; hence it is a perfect religion -
Sputjam
with regards to ZINA, 100 lashes to both parties. Relationship between parties are irrelevant.
So if you were Gang Raped (male on male rape is common in Islam) then it is okay for you to be punished for Zina.
Sputjam
I wonder how many aethist actually spend so much time studying the koran and other islamic religion literatue.
Quite a few in fact.
And it would not surprise me that many of us atheists have a better understanding and knowledge of islam than Muslims themselves, including you.
Now explain to us why you cannot produce a link to verse 2.221.
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shiva declared that am a liar.
who would you believe?
Shiva, I have just came across a page on Al Takiyah, and I have to disagree with you calling Sputjam a liar.
Quote,
According to Al-Taqiyah, Muslims were granted the Shar’iyee right (legitimacy) to infiltrate the Dar el-Harb (war zone), infiltrate the enemy’s cities and forums and plant the seeds of discord and sedition. These agents were acting on behalf of the Muslim authority at war, and therefore were not considered as lying against or denouncing the tenants of Islam.Sputjam is a “legitimate” mujahedeen, whose mission was to undermine the enemy’s resistance and level of mobilization. One of their major objectives was to cause a split among the enemy’s camp while downplaying the issues related to Islam (“Oh, I am not religious.” “Oh, that is not Islam, you are mistaken, there is so much misinformation.” “Oh, it is in the interpretation.” “Brother, Islam is all about peace and love and music just like in the 60s, AND no pedophilia”).
In many instances, they convinced their targeted audiences that Jihad is not aimed at them.
Unquote. -
oops, pressed the wrong button, I haven’t finished.
Shiva, you caught Sputjam in the act of Taqiyah, not lying.
Q 3:54 Orang-orang kafir itu membuat tipu daya, dan Allah membalas tipu daya mereka itu. Dan Allah sebaik-baik pembalas tipu daya.
In bold means ‘Allah is the best of deceiver’.
Look, the deity he worshipped is the best of deceiver, what more can I say. -
I think he is lying, as making such a mistake he made, shows he does not have the intelligence to play the taquiya game.
Honestly I do not know what game he is playing, he is freaky, yeah more out of line than the Ahmadiyah.
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Odinius says:
shiva said:
male on male rape is common in Islam
how can you say crap like this and expect people to take you seriously? do you have statistics on male-male rape that show it is more common in Muslim countries than others? somehow i doubt that.
the only place i can think of where male-male rape is common are prisons.
shiva said:
Honestly I do not know what game he is playing, he is freaky, yeah more out of line than the Ahmadiyah.
you obviously think yourself the expert on islam. so how come you don’t recognize a quranic purist? Sputjam doesn’t believe in the sunnah or any non-quranic sources of religious authority. it’s a growing movement in islam.
here’s a source with more along those lines
islam, like Christianity, is a diverse faith with many diverse readings of holy books.
if Christianity was as monolithic and literal as the islam you seem to think is the only one, then all Christians would own slaves, just as long as they are non-believers but circumcised by their owner. and, of course, it’s best if they’re captured in war.
Leviticus 25:44-46 “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.”
Genesis 17:13 “He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.”
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.”
Deuteronomy 20:14 “But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself”
then there;s stoning to death of non virgins…
22.20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, (unmarried women)
22.21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house; so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
blah blah a hundred other things.
now i’m not bringing this up to allege all Christians and Jews own slaves and stone non-virgins…that would be absurd. but it’s to highlight the very absurdity of making categorical claims on behalf of old, diverse religions based on a few, cherry-picked passages from holy books.
the bottom line is, religions are full of good stuff and bad stuff. it’s up to people to navigate these and evolve away from the bad stuff. no religion is inherently better or worse than any other, but people can behave better or worse than each other.
Comment on “Heretic Outreach”.
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ALUANG :
This man is a professor so I presumed he is well-learned. He must have come across hadiths that allowed sex with children and liked it. Maybe it is the afterlife reward of virgins and pearly boys.
CUKURUNGAN :
Salah maning and wrong again ..oh my Gun …hu a ha ha many thanks for your enlightment that a professors is always a man…don’t spend your times in the riding bikes only just get work out for your brain ..you may play chest with taxi drivers or tukang becak to stimulate blood in your brain.