545 Comments on “Open Thread”
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Arie Brand says:
It wasn’t just Canada but Australian passports as well and contrary to what to what was implied it caused major issues between the three nations.
Are you sure you are not confusing that affair of 1997 with the more recent one in Dubai in which, indeed, also Australian passports were involved? If there was in 1997 a major issue between Australia and Israel about passports I must have missed it.
That said, I still struggle to see why people over emphasize this local scuffle between some pretty unsavoury nations and non nations
We must have a quite different sense of the political weight of certain issues. To me this ‘local scuffle’ looks like one of the most likely causes of a major conflagration.
As for agreeing to live in peace, I must have missed it Ari, I assume all these groups yup speak of have changed their charters to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist now?
As far as the PLO is concerned you did indeed miss it because this recognition came way back, in the eighties if I remember well. As Siegman pointed out in the article to which I provided the link above not only the P.L.O. but also Hamas is, in actual practice, ignoring its charter though it has not gone out of its way to confirm Israel’s right to exist (why would it? – it is one of the very few cards it can play with). I am away for a day or two but when I return I will provide the details about that PLO recognition.
The spoils of the six days war? Mmmm Almost makes it sound as if Israel was the aggressor?
Well, what do you call the nation that deals, unannounced, the first blow.? It was Israel that made a surprise attack on the Egyptian airforce and destroyed it on the ground – after which Egypt was unable to achieve much militarily. The Gulf of Akaba had been blockaded by Egypt but that maritime out- and inlet was of very limited significance to Israel. And, anyway, President Johnson was in the process of forming a naval squadron (for which, if I am not mistaken, Australia and Holland had volunteered) to break that blockade and had warned Israel that if it started hostilities it could not count on American support. In spite of this Israel went ahead. There is on YOUTUBE a video by a Dutch UNIFIL observer of the time who has put on record his account of Israel’s countless provocations of its neighbours in the months before the war. All that was covered up at the time and his report on it could not be published in the journal of his employer, the Dutch Army Courier (Legerkoerier). I am willing to write at far greater length about this but not now. You can find on this blog an exchange between me and a fellow who called himself Schmerly about this very topic.
Seems a bit naughty to keep painting only one side of the issues here
Regard it as a counterweight to the way this topic is usually discussed here. There is no topic on which there is so much deliberate misinformation (hasbara) and outright lies as this one. The pro-Israel lobby has an enormous hold on particularly the American mainstream media. Until an advanced age I was also taken in by all that. Since I started to research it for myself I have never ceased to be outraged by all this. The old folk wisdom that, where two are quarelling, two must be at fault becomes meaningless when one party is so much stronger than the other and is using its strength ruthlessly.
If you are really interested in the whole issue, and do not just see it as a matter to vent your spleen, you should search for, inter alia, Henry Siegman’s articles, particularly one entitled “Israel’s Lies” in the London Review of Books (the Journal that also published Walt and Mearsheimer’s original article on the Israel lobby after the magazine that had originally commissioned it, the Atlantic Monthly, did not have the guts). As far as Siegman is concerned: perhaps you will accept from a former Director of the American Jewish Congress (and ordained rabbi) what you seem to be unwilling to accept from me. But there are a great many other sources. The blogs of Philip Weiss, Richard Silverstein, Tony Karon etc. (all Jews) also provide a great deal of information.
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nobody says:
Oigal try to learn history, the land was obviously muslim for more than 1000 years and Roman before that. It has never been Jewish since Jesus was born. Where did this apparently so holy “israel’s right to exist there” came from? other than due to strong arming by some western country?
So, from the perspective of the palestinian, israel is a tresspasser. What does democratic american laws say about tresspassers?.
There is absolutely no moral equivalency between israel and palestinian ok, it is not a fight between brothers or even neighbours, it is between a home/land owner and a home invader. -
Indeed I was Ari, my apologies
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Actually, and really don’t mean this spitefully, I am not really interested in it (as you put it) . It’s local regional issue when there are far bigger issues closer to home to worry about. So there floor is yours for what’s it’s worth.
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Well, anyway, here is that video about the deceptions of 1967 in which Israel was depicted as the victim rather than the aggressor.
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And here is the promised account of the PLO’s recognition of Israel’s “right to exist”. I wrote earlier about this:
In 1988 Jordan relinquished its claim to the West Bank in favour of the Palestinians. That same year the PLO, through Arafat, accepted UN Resolution 242, gave up all claims to any territory within Israel’s 1967 borders occupying 78 % of the pre-1948 territory, and declared the PLO’s aim to establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel on the remaining 22 % with Jerusalem as its shared capital. In a formal public statement Arafat then also recognized Israel’s “right to exist”.
This happened again in the nineties. In 1996 the legislative body of the PLO, the Palestine National Council (PNC), voted 504 –54 to annul anything in the PLO Charter that contradicted the Oslo agreement. The amended version seemed to satisfy Yitzhak Rabin’s cabinet.
It was mainly at the insistence of Rabin’s successor, Binyamin Netanyahu, that the PLO had to go through the same exercise again – as happened in December 1998, during the presence of President Clinton.Apparently Netanyahu’s cabinet was satisfied with the proceedings that then took place. Netanyahu himself expressed his satisfaction very soon after the December 1998 PNC meeting. Vol.17 of the Documents from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the years 1998 – 1999 gives this account of Netanyahu’s reaction:
“Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the Government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel.”However, some members of the Knesset soon found occasion for legal nitpicking, among other things with the argument that the two third majority of PNC-members, required for Charter change, had not been quite there (it was a miracle that Arafat got as many together as he did). Netanyahu too soon changed front. The bar had to be raised, and an additional hoop installed. He now insisted that the annulment of certain clauses in the Charter was not enough and that the whole Charter had to be presented in its revised form. Since then he has been repeating, ad nauseam, that this has not been done – a complaint for which he has found a willing echo among the “right or wrong, my country” school.
Arafat had to pull the whole exercise off in the face of opposition from other factions in the PLO and to insist that the whole revised Charter would be presented was just one bridge too far, particularly as Israel was not living up to its own obligations under the Oslo agreement, especially regarding the release of prisoners and the activity re settlements, as Netanyahu knew full well.
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Lairedion says:
Munir Said Thalib will have a street named after him in The Hague. That’s a sympathetic gesture towards the wife, relatives and friends of this true Indonesian hero.
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That Israel is a liability to the US that has been spun into an asset by relentless propaganda and lobbyism, media connivance and streams of campaign money, is a fact not hidden to people who have to deal with “realities on the ground” viz. the military:
There are powerful forces in America that wish that this was not so, starting with the US military. Before Biden’s trip no less a prominent and widely admired commander as General David Petraeus wrote a memo to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, with its sentiments reduplicated in testimony last Tuesday before a US Senate Armed Services Committee.
In his prepared statement to Congress, Petraeus described the Israeli-Arab conflict as the first “cross cutting challenge to security and stability” in the CENTCOM area of responsibility [AOR]. “The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR.”
Petraeus then told the Senate committee that “The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world.” Not long before, Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, warned the Israelis publicly that an attack on Iran would be a “big, big, big problem for all of us.”
In Israel the widely-read Yediot Ahronoth reported that privately Biden had echoed Petraeus’s sentiments, telling Netanyahu that Israel’s conduct was “starting to get dangerous for us.” “What you’re doing here,” Biden reportedly said, “undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us, and it endangers regional peace.”
Would not the charge that Israel is putting harm’s way the lives of Americans battling terror on the front lines be devastating if toughly presented by a capable politician to the American people? Yes it would. Honestly conducted polls, without weasel wording, would probably give the politician making such a charge ratings as higher or higher than Bush got in 1991.
So will Gen. Petraeus, assuming he embarks on a political run in 2012 or 2016, make such a move? First of all, one can make the assumption that after his memo and testimony it won’t be long before we’re reading some investigative story about the “questionable claims”, associated with Gen. Petraeus’ numerous medals, maybe even disclosures of Flashmanesque prudence on the field of battle. Secondly, any Republican candidate has to court the Republican ultra-Christians, passionate in support of Israel, by reason of doctrinal scheduling of the ultimate Rapture. Thirdly, why scare all Jewish campaign money back into the Democratic Party?
Read more:
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ET says:
Lairedion
Munir Said Thalib will have a street named after him in The Hague.
Instead of giving him a street name they should drag those responsible for his murder before the International Court of Justice in that same town. Sympathetic gestures like this usually serve to soften the blow and divert the attention from the real culprits.
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ET,
That’s your call.
“They” are the Dutch government honouring Munir. I don’t believe they had the intention to divert attention from the real culprits. They could have done nothing and ignore the whole matter.
Furthermore, it is very much appreciated by Suciwati, his wife.
I thought it was noteworthy to post this in this thread.
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Lairedion
Furthermore, it is very much appreciated by Suciwati, his wife.
I suppose she would be even more pleased to know on who’s orders Pollycarpus has been acting.
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ET,
Some organization/body pays tribute to her late husband by naming a street after him and she appreciates that. At least somebody who feels Munir should not be forgotten.
What exactly is your problem with that?
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I just wish it should have gone further. Those behind the murder are still at large. They are the ones who are forgotten and they probably like it this way.
Kennedy even got a space center and an airport named after him but it would still be nice if someone went down to the nitty-gritty.
Unresolved high profile cases always leave a bad taste and statues don’t make up for justice being manipulated. -
Oh yes but initiatives like these are always welcome, how insignificant they might be at first sight.
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“They” are the Dutch government honouring Munir. I don’t believe they had the intention to divert attention from the real culprits. They could have done nothing and ignore the whole matter.
Indeed, I don’t think in real politic they could have done anymore and its actually a surprising gesture and a real slap in the face for some here.
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PKS legislator Arifinto was caught watching porn on his tablet right in the DPR building. After first claiming he opened a link in an e-mail from an unknown sender now stories appear he deliberately opened the video.
House Ethics Council Says PKS Lawmaker Must Go
From this article:
The latest series of photographs show Arifinto deliberately selecting a pornographic film from a folder, rather than opening an e-mail link that, unbeknown to him, was a pathway to pornographic images, as the lawmaker previously claimed.
As predicted now shoutings whatsoever from the FPI and like-minded organisations now one of their own was caught with his pants down.
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Arifinto watching porn… That’s what tablets are for, Pak Arifinto. For plenary sessions or just doing your job as a legislator they are useless…
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These guys are such a hoot and the pride of Indonesia, not to mention great fodder for us sarcastic bloggers.
Meanwhile the Peter Pan case remains an international embarrassment and the big Question is where is our friend NOBODY…
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Sorry one last post.
From a JP article a quote from Tifi, the twittering fool. Hypocrisy par excellence:
Tifatul, however, defended Arifinto, saying he could not be charged under the Internet law as the legislator had “unintentionally” downloaded the porn video.
“Those transmitting and distributing porn contents are subject to the law, those downloading are not,” Tifatul said in a statement.
Photos show PKS lawmaker stored porn on tablet
I agree it was “unintentionally”, it was Allah’s will….
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more photos
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diego says:
The photographer must be either:
(1) Jew
(2) Chinese
(3) Western
(4) Balinese
(5) KafirOr any combination of them.
Other possibility: a hacker has sneaked porn into his tablet. The hacker can be either:
(1) Jew
(2) Chinese
(3) Western
(4) Balinese
(5) KafirOr any combination of them.
Either case, it took that guy from PKS more than 1 minute to decide if he should delete the porn. This must be caused by stupifying substance added to his lunch by either:
(1) Jew
(2) Chinese
(3) Western
(4) Balinese
(5) KafirOr any combination of them.
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I think you guys are being a bit mean. Looking at the poor (oops, sorry silly thing to say considering his job) man (in its most generic as opposed to honorific sense), it would be a reasonable assumption to think the pictures as close to the real thing he would ever get.
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Tifatul, however, defended Arifinto, saying he could not be charged under the Internet law as the legislator had “unintentionally” downloaded the porn video.
“Those transmitting and distributing porn contents are subject to the law, those downloading are not,” Tifatul said in a statement.
Ah another comedic master piece from the Master himself…Now if he would just twit, mean tweet exactly where Ariel transmitted and distributed porn. Why do I feel the need to wash my hands even just writing about these creatures.
Ok, I confess as a foreigner maybe I am missing something but don’t Indonesians feel embarrassed and soiled having these guys as the “face” of Indonesia to the world? How do they keep their jobs?
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Odinius says:
Oigal said:
Ok, I confess as a foreigner maybe I am missing something but don’t Indonesians feel embarrassed and soiled having these guys as the “face” of Indonesia to the world? How do they keep their jobs?
I don’t usually put much stock in party gossip, but there are a lot of people who think PKS is going to lose out big-time to a resurgent PPP in 2014. The reasoning is that, even if many of the scandals involving PKS are deliberate hoaxes, it tarnishes their “clean” image. PPP might not have that image, but it still has the machine, and looks like it’s managing to make inroads among conservative Muslims.
Once again, though, this would likely take the form of the various Muslim-oriented parties swapping votes with each other. The approximately 25% vote ceiling for Muslim-oriented parties will likely stay in effect, though the movement within this large and diverse category could still be consequential. I’d like to think a Yenny-run PKB could siphon votes from some of the others…
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I’d like to think a Yenny-run PKB could siphon votes from some of the others…
She would have my vote..if I had one 🙂
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Oigal
Ok, I confess as a foreigner maybe I am missing something but don’t Indonesians feel embarrassed and soiled having these guys as the “face” of Indonesia to the world?
I don’t think so considering the lack of embarrassment for all other forms of soiling and contamination.
How do they keep their jobs?
They keep their jobs because at the end of the day nobody cares. Sinetrons are more important.
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Now that’s funny:
PKS lawmaker ordered to recite Koran porn incident
Anyone wanna place bets to see if he can pull it off? I don’t give him a chance. His brain is already corrupted with pornographic images.
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Arifinto got caught with his pants down and can change his name in Ari Finito while all the other hypocrites shout astaghfirullah.
‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone’.
Kaum munafik.
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The latest display of nuttery in Indonesia:
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It wasn’t just Canada but Australian passports as well and contrary to what to what was implied it caused major issues between the three nations. That said, I still struggle to see why people over emphasize this local scuffle between some pretty unsavoury nations and non nations. Particularly some in the west, let’s be honest Dubai can build 7 star hotels, islands in the ocean for the rich and obnoxious and the idiot EU sends tax payer funds to people that dispise them….
As for agreeing to live in peace, I must have missed it Ari, I assume all these groups yup speak of have changed their charters to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist now?
The spoils of the six days war? Mmmm Almost makes it sound as if Israel was the aggressor? Tell me Ari, are you going to gives us a bio on Mashal, hardly a very nice example of the human species. Seems a bit naughty to keep painting only one side of the issues here.