545 Comments on “Open Thread”
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Arie Brand says:
Odinius
I assumed that you were not living there because on at least one occasion (when you told me you had seen one of my books) it was apparent that you had access to the type of academic library not found in Indonesia. So are you living there or not? No, I am not living there – but it is quite clear to me that those on this forum who do do not quite share your fairly rosy assessment of the situation.That’s all.
Here is you:
Indonesia is, simply put, one of the most democratic states in a fairly non-democratic region.
And here was Lairedion (yesterday):
In my view Indonesia is certainly a democracy in retreat and in desperate need of a second reformasi wave.
Well, formally these statements are not totally incompatible but yet they sound quite different to me.
I refrain from quoting recent posts by Oigal and ET. Of course all these people are living there.
As to your question about my linguistic competence as far as Indonesian is concerned, I found it funny that you bothered to ask. I know that to an American speaking a foreign language, any foreign language, seems a major achievement. But the answer is: I had to learn it probably before you were born. It was part of the training for the Inland Civil Service. Indonesian was widely spoken in the coastal regions of Papua and the only language used in dealing with people on an everyday basis.
For the rest I noticed that you have not addressed my arguments.
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Odinius says:
I’m going to ignore the little comment on national origin and just say that I’m glad you do speak Indonesian, but for the record, I wouldn’t have thought less of your opinions had you said “no.” I just wanted to make a point. If having someone ask about YOUR background makes you uncomfortable and defensive, perhaps you shouldn’t have made an issue of someone else’s, with the implication that this would affect someone’s knowledge of the topic at hand. It does, qualitatively, but does not necessarily mean “better analysis.” People with lots of up close experience of something, when they cannot or will not distance themselves from it, are often the most prone to misanalysis.
I try to be unemotional when I consider things like this topic. Indonesia has heaps of problems, and a long way to go before it’s Finland. Actually, it’s never going to be Finland. If things work out well, it will be kind of like the USA–democratic and institutionally effective, but still pretty messy and often still unfair. There’s, of course, a long road from here to there, and it’s by no means certain. But I think that when you consider the deeply troubling first 5 years of the reformasi era (politically, socially, economically, etc.), you have to recognize that a lot of progress has been made. That doesn’t mean everything has gotten better, or that it’s all well and done and over now–some things have gotten worse. But that progress is still significant progress. I just don’t see how anyone with knowledge of the subject and critical, emotional distance from it can deny that. I’ll refer over to Robin Bush’s statement in the Gaddafi/Egypt thread for a more eloquent statement of my own opinion.
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j
… I’m glad you do speak Indonesian, but for the record, I wouldn’t have thought less of your opinions had you said “no.” I just wanted to make a point.
Not quite clear to me what point if it didn’t have to do with the weight (to you) of my opinions.
If having someone ask about YOUR background makes you uncomfortable and defensive,
I am not aware of it. You can ask as much as you want. You might trigger off the garrulity that is supposed to go with old age.
I made a point of asking whether you are living in Indonesia because I surmised that you are an academic who visits Indonesia from time to time, for fieldwork, conferences, or otherwise. Presumably you live, during those periods, in relatively comfortable accommodation and are spared the irritation and hassles people who are permanently living there have to contend with. This will affect your judgment, one way or the other, and is therefore a relevant thing to know about you. You are right in saying that looking at things from a distance has advantages provided it doesn’t become the distance ‘in which all cats are grey’ (to vary a famous saying of Hegel).
You might be right that measured by certain criteria there has been progress in Indonesia over the last ten years or so. Perhaps you can spell them out for us. But the impression I get from the contributions by quite a few people on this forum is that they don’t see it – that they rather see the opposite.
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I spend most of my time here in urban kampungs, Arie. Don’t presume.
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But the impression I get from the contributions by quite a few people on this forum is that they don’t see it – that they rather see the opposite.
To be fair the nature of this site tends to highlight the extreme newsworthy topics and issues. A bit like the impression you would get listened to shock jock radio in Australia you would swear the country is being over run with Afgan refugees and cannot move down the street for gay pride parades.
I am certainly not as optimistic as Ody about Indonesia by the same token I do lament the fact it is difficult to find any media highlighting honest to good progress. That of course, is a media issue but as an example it would be nice if the media could actually help the nation identify some up and coming future leaders instead on the usual pack of rats n mice.
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Hans says:
failed state, all or nothing! We have a debate here in Sweden, of what children do when they have permission from the school. statistics are now saying that about two students in evry school class can not afford to travel up to the mountains and go skiing or travel south and sunbathing. this is known as poor children, we have one municipal child poverty index, which is managed by. ` Save the Children´.
From an international perspective, the material poverty among families with children in Sweden as modest. UNICEF’s latest report recently presented to reaffirm this picture. But this gives no comfort to all the children in Swedish, ther daily life are excluded from activities that are seen as self-evident to their classmates and friends.
Because of this government has the ultimate responsibility for achieving the state’s responsibility to the Child “Save the Children“ urges the Prime Minister and his colleagues to act:Save the Children = Rädda Barnen
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life is just like riding a bike, to keep balance you must keep moving~ go go go !fighting !
study hard,work hard,make money more and more;eat well,sleep well,have fun day by day
Listen more talk less
life is a rollercoaster,if tomorrow never come, be a hero~
this is words from my frind Jing Chen in China.
I have some penn-pall in China, best way to undestand what is going on ther. And it´s plenty intresting but not mutch
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Lairedion says:
In general, upholding the law and constitution, fundamental in a democracy, has been severely neglected and ignored by authorities.
You don’t need to live in Indonesia to draw such conclusions.
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The ‘cultural unification’ of the world starts with the international language: music. We now have exquisite Asian singers of Western opera. Here are a few:
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rustyprince says:
Didn’t the indonesian Stock exchange rise from a low of 1100 in October 08 to 3700 in October 2010 and the rupiah appreciate in the same time frame from 12500rp to 8800rp to the US$. So what’s with all the negitivity.
Also has anyone read Ambrose in the London DT quoting a CiteBank report predicting GDP in Indonesia to Surpass the combined total of Western Europe’s 4 largest economies by 2050. So it seems there’re fortunes to be made here?
Second point, was looking at Kubrick’s 2001 A Space Odyssey today and I’d love if someone would edit the Simian’s bashing their victim with the femur bone into the Ahmadiyah Murder Video. It be. Of more benefit than a million words!!!
Third Point, I think the unobtainable beauty perfection of white ‘vampire-esque’ kulit is psychologically impacting on vast no’s of young ladies here and driving then towards the veil. And its counter productive for the TV stations because they relie on shampoo advert revenue. No?
Finally the coastal area near Cikeusik in Banten has some of Java’s finest vista’s and for what its worth I found the people among the friendliest in Indonesia. Awful tragedy, but these things happen and overall Islam and its inclusivist tenets has kept a lid on the impoverished frustrations triggering wider disorder. Hopefully the Elite are following events in the Arab world and even Bangkok a year back and seeing that without reform and redistribution of waealth Islam won’t hold the tide forever.
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the unobtainable beauty perfection of white ‘vampire-esque’ kulit is psychologically impacting on vast no’s of young ladies here and driving then towards the veil
So shampoo ads are responsible for the Burqa? 🙂
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ET says:
So shampoo ads are responsible for the Burqa?
Could be because it hides the ketombe better than any shampoo.
Ketombe, the horror… the horror…
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realest says:
Indonesia need to have all kids finish their 12-year education. On a lighter note, American in Bali tried to commit suicide with his 4 children in fear of being deported http://www.detiknews.com/read/2011/03/03/171246/1584109/10/warga-as-ancam-bunuh-diri-bersama-4-anaknya-di-bali?9911032
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Just thinking tangentially there Oigal. Like on Indo TV now the use of the veil is negligible, which must be a dictat of the bosses and the advertising dept. But unlike in the West the ideal image presented on the Box is having no impact on vast no’s of impressionable hormonal gadis in Java?
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Moral of the saudis (or lack thereof) . See comments from pricks like azooz al batal and muhammad-the-king … and comments from some other saudis in the facebook group named ANTI SAUDI ARABIA:
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I’ll catch that link at another time Diego, can’t read on HP.
But why would young ladies in a ‘free’ society so obligingly transform themselves. Doesn’t Beattie talk of the disquiet/melancholy that was especially felt by the elderly when the first hijabs appeared in the Javan villages in the 90s and coincidentally this is the period when the parabola became ubiquitous. So wE have the unattainable perfection presented on Indo TV to the masses and the young sisters switching to the veil because it makes them feel emancipated!!!
I only sending out feelors but, just maybe, if Indo TV had have been more reflective of the wider society than some rarified alien Singapore emptiness than the young sisters wouldn’t have been too quick to get ’emancipated’.
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Interesting insight rustyprince.
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@rustyprince
But why would young ladies in a ‘free’ society so obligingly transform themselves.
Because of peer pressure, just like in the West with the tattoo craze (= tramp stamps).
Nothing to do with emancipation, in my opinion. Conformation to the norm is the easiest and safest way to be socially accepted, especially if – like you said – the norm presented by the role models in the media is for most unattainable. -
Still not really with you on the Shampoo 🙂 but the point is interesting. Many of the women here often wear the Jilbad not because of any great new found religious desire but as it provides a degree of protection (emancipation) from the leers and comments of the moronic few on the local buses and in the markets.
Of course, the moronic few are growing greater in number as the lead morons tell the sexually frustrated kids that an uncovered woman has a lower standard of morals therefore fair game. Nonsense of course but there you have it.
Little story time… A very close friend of mine from Bukkit Tinggi who dumped all the garb after her so called pious husband did a runner, stole the cash and the local Iman backed him in the “divorce” was recently down the market, when a trio of the local Arab clones (you know the ones white table cloth for shirt, tea towel on the head) decided it was their role to “educate” woman on how they should dress.
Bad mistake, never ever annoy a Sumatra woman with an axe to grind, particularly when she is taller and more imposing than you. By the time she was finished, she was hounding the clones out of the market in full shriek, along with a gathering cloud of other angry women all the while explaining explicitly just how inadequate these guys were as men, lovers and husbands. Need to be careful I guess, lot of women out there p*ssed at guys waiting a spark 🙂 ). Be awhile before those sexually inept clowns venture to the markets.
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Bad mistake, never ever annoy a Sumatra woman with an axe to grind, particularly when she is taller and more imposing than you.
Good news. Seems not all Sumatran tigers are extinct.
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muhammad-the-king
There is only one Muhammad-the-king, what a great boxer, sad that the one God punished him for his betrayal.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not misuse the Lord thy God’s name, for the Lord will not leave the guiltless who misuses his name.God threatens to punish all those who transgress his commandments, therefore we will fear his wrath, so that we can not violate His commandments.
God punish his head and that’s why he suffers from brain damage. Plus he get affect on vision and hearing.
what a PITY
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God punish his head and that’s why he suffers from brain damage. Plus he get affect on vision and hearing.
Joe Frazier is GOD?
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Well at least Joe wasn’t flinging little children against trees and drowning them in tsunamis so he ain’t the worst option.
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Ingemar “Ingo” Johansson, get the same problem with his brain. died January 30, 2009 in Gothenburg.
Joe, what happened to him?
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Well Oigal, are all those hijab lassies purchasing the premium shampoos advertised on the High Altars of White Perfection, because they’ve opted out of the demeaning appliance of the parrallel beauty cremes?
So advertising intake from Cosmetics must be fallin and budget shampoos are possibly rising.For Instance,Is Pakistan TV saturated with Shampoo adverts, or how are they even advertised on Saudi TV. So
I’m just wonderin why there are No golden bronzed models on TV and if the natural beauty of the majority of Indonesian Women was celebrated instead of castigated/shamed than is it at all possible that the Veil wouldn’t be as rampant.In the West we pressure our teenage gals to Eat less than 2000 calories, well stay slim; here the beautiful svelte cewe2 are pressured to become White Hantus. The pressure is incidious but at least in the case of the former it is attainable. Hence, so many young ladies here don the hijab to become emancipated, nothing to do with hassle, which is exceedingly tame in veil free Bali/Manado and even in Islamic Ternate where the majority of lassies discard the veil and its anti individualistic imprimatur. But in Java an ugly conformity is triumphing despite the power of Jakarta media.
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Northug broke all slowed down and cocky slovly over the finish line.
To me, he may like to show his ass in the finish! if
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Saudi Arabia Revolution ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ????????
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Well, for the record, I just had a peek at Indonesia’s “Islamist People Power Revolution.” I’m sorry to say for all those who imagined “Tahrir on Thamrin” that the demonstrators were greatly outnumbered by both police and angry soccer/football fans in red demanding reform of the PSSI.