545 Comments on “Open Thread”
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Stevie..you are dill nothing more nothing less.
BB you cannot be serious I actually gave you more credit than that. You have debated nothing. You came out with some wild claim that the right has for want of a better term moved to the left. Which is simply not supported by any facts. You accuse others of hyperbole and straw men when the substance of your claim is based on red herring like abortion which is a bipartisan debate on its own. You imply there is systematic forced closure of places of worship which is abject nonsense when pressed you come up with a granted over zealous dispute on an orphanage, hardly proof of any kind of systematic closures and worse a very long bow from your orginal point.
Frankly you are correct in one thing, it is tiresome so I will leave you to your dreams of terror that the left is taking over the world via abortion, mass immigration and forced closures of places of worship.
Oh your 8:33 post, well Stevie since you insist. I think BB is fundamentally a decent person just trapped in the reds under the bed and wrapped in hyperbole. You on the other hand are a prize numpty not to be taken seriously at any time. Although based on latest piece you might want to think about professional help..
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Arie Brand says:
ET some additional notes to your description of the abortion situation in the Netherlands. Abortion is indeed relatively easy (and cheap) there – but the interesting thing is that the abortion figure is relatively low. The most recent figure I could find is 14, 3 cases per 100 pregnancies The figure for Europe as a whole is 19. The figure for 49 reporting areas in the US is 23,
The decision to have an abortion is left to the woman concerned. On the other hand a doctor, even one who performs this surgery habitually, is not obliged to enter into the woman’s request. He can refuse. She will then have to find somebody else.
After 24 weeks of pregnancy abortion becomes a criminal procedure. After 13 weeks of pregnancy there are additional requirements for abortion inter alia that two doctors have to be present.
There is indeed such a thing as abortion tourism mainly from strictly catholic countries such as Ireland and Poland but the Netherlands is not the only target. Women who find it difficult to obtain abortion in their own country also go to Germany, Austria and the UK. However in the Netherlands it is relatively cheap, 280 Euro, as compared to between 400 – 600 Euro in Germany and 450-2000 pounds in the UK.
You are no doubt aware that there is often uninformed critique on Dutch policies re euthanasia, drugs and, also, abortion. As an example google on the foolish things Santorum recently said about euthanasia in the Netherlands (you might know that progressive euthanasia legislation instigated in the Australian Northern Territory – of all places – was torpedoed in federal parliament here on the initiative of some catholic busybody).
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ET says:
Oigal
ET, granted but again that is a significant difference from suggesting it is an inspired, pre meditated master plan of the left.
Here I have to disagree. The timing of the rise of the New Left and the radicalisation of the feminist movement with abortion as its spearhead coincides too perfectly to be unconnected.
BB
Only last month the Daily Telegraph ran a series of investigations on this very issue, you can access the investigation here.
I think the link didn’t come through.
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ET, granted but again that is a significant difference from suggesting it is an inspired, pre meditated master plan of the left.
Here I have to disagree. The timing of the rise of the New Left and the radicalisation of the feminist movement with abortion as its spearhead coincides too perfectly to be unconnected.
Not a master plan ET, feminism seems to have been a reaction to the white men’s game of the New Left:
For the USA see the Wiki:
It could be argued that the New Left’s most successful legacy was the rebirth of feminism.[21] As the leaders of the New Left were largely white men, women reacted to the lack of progressive gender politics with their own social intellectual movement.[22]
For Holland see:
The sociologist J.A.A.van Doorn “For the New Left politics was a game for men”
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It is difficult to assess afterwards but it is hardly imaginable that the great socialist leaders of yore like Willy Brandt in Germany, François Mitterrand in France or Camille Huysmans in Belgium would have been preoccupied with the hobby horses of the New Left like gay marriage, gender based abortions or even fox-hunting to name a few.
Arie Brand
It could be argued that the New Left’s most successful legacy was the rebirth of feminism.[21] As the leaders of the New Left were largely white men, women reacted to the lack of progressive gender politics with their own social intellectual movement.[22]
If so then the New Left has been quite successful in recuperating radical feminism into its rank and file.
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ET the point at issue was whether there was a “master plan” between the original New Left and the feminist movement to undertake together “the long march through the institutions”. There is no evidence for this myth. As far as the neck of the woods where I hail from is concerned: I had another look at the original manifesto the New Left came up with there in 1966 (“Tien over Rood” = Ten beyond Red). Not only are the eight authors all male, there is nothing about gender policies there.
Having had to let go of one myth you want to cling to another, namely that (in Britain) fox hunting and gay rights are presently among the main concerns of the Left. Remember that BB said that this point was so self evident that it “barely merited discussion”? Timdog reacted to that by saying that, on reflection, he couldn’t agree more. I say it with him now.
Oh yes, about these “gender based abortions” – do you know any other kind?
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stevo says:
There is no large scale “master plan” as such. There are people working together with a common goal, which is much the same thing in terms of outcome. Playing with words does not change the core truth that the left has ingrained its self in positions of power and influence in a deliberate attempt to socially engineer society.
Correspondingly the right has attempted to do the same. The left has just done it more successfully ( due to the fanatical driven nature of many lefties, I suspect) -
berlian biru says:
Oy veh! Oigal, again with the straw men.
You imply there is systematic forced closure of places of worship
No I didn’t, I implied nothing I stated a fact, you misunderstood the fact I stated, your problem not mine.
You came out with some wild claim that the right has for want of a better term moved to the left.
Christ on a bike! You completely misunderstood what I said, after all this you still don’t get it do you?
For the last time I am saying that the left have marginalized previously centre ground positions and branded them as extreme right wing and have successfully marketed their left wing positions as centre ground.
I am right.
You obviously have been kicking too many bags of spuds into that Murray river Oigal old son, you seem to have utterly lost the ability to comprehend basic written English.
Leave it at that then, I actually thought for a while you had a grasp of elementary political ideas and had a semblance of debating ability. My apologies for over estimating you, a mistake I will not make in the future.
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Thanks for coming BB, it’s been fun. I do love the “I am right” :-). In fact, you are completely wrong but who really cares beyond some fun on the net.
There is always the minority gaining some sort of lonely but sad pleasure sitting down the pub in their dottage lamenting into there long nursed beers about the passing of those key centre positions which so made the past so wonderful. Of course they tend to brush over the more unsavory parts ( as we do in hindsight) such as the white Australia policy, refusal of voting rights to aboriginals, equal pay for women, conception and that hideous roooonation of society the pill. In fact, i know very disturbed gentleman who spends its time bemoaning its removal of its “right” to physically beat children who fail to respond to inept and dated teaching methods. Why we even had every clear lines about what religion could hold the levers of power.
Nothing’s perfect but in the vast majority of developed countries, it would be very very difficult to argue that society is a far more inclusive and just place than a generation ago as it should be. As much as that worries the burnt out old reactionaries, it really is a good thing.
Of course there were some significant advantages to the old and past lamented system particularly if you were part of chosen. Were those advantages worth having a fundamentally nice bloke but Trapped in the fifties mind set like Rick S as a presidential candidate in this day and age. To quote the only useful thing Sarah Palin ever said “Hell No”
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AB
Oh yes, about these “gender based abortions” – do you know any other kind?
By default of a better term I named ‘gender based abortions’ those where the woman, after the gender of the foetus has been determined, decides to have an abortion because she isn’t happy with it. According to BB
Only last month the Daily Telegraph ran a series of investigations on this very issue, you can access the investigation here.
Unfortunately the link didn’t come through. Maybe he can try again.
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bonni says:
Men talking about gender based abortions… This should be fun 😀
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Leave it at that then, I actually thought for a while you had a grasp of elementary political ideas and had a semblance of debating ability. My apologies for over estimating you, a mistake I will not make in the future.
Oigal is a dyslexic troll. He has little grasp of anything, let alone political ideas. He might be fun (as the resident troll) if he actually debated what was said instead of what was not said. He is a one trick pony with his personal attacks and misrepresentations of any disenting view. Very drull stuff indeed.
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Men talking about gender based abortions… This should be fun 😀
Always a pleasure to have you amused bonni. I hope there weren’t some inconvenient truths. 🙂
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Not sure what bonni feels is so funny about the widescale killing of baby girls, perhaps she can explain.
ET, sorry about that, here’s the link.
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ET I have no idea why these links aren’t working, Google ‘Daily Telegraph’ and ‘sex-selection abortions’, you’ll find many links to the investigation.
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He is a one trick pony with his personal attacks
Oigal is a dyslexic troll. He has little grasp of anything, let alone political ideas. He might be fun (as the resident troll) if he actually debated what was said instead of what was not said. He is a one trick pony.
Ho di Do 🙂
I could be wrong BB however I would reckon Bonnie is referring to a bunch of blokes debating how much and what control a woman should have over her body and pretending its a political issue. But then you already knew that.
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I could be wrong BB however I would reckon Bonnie is referring to a bunch of blokes debating how much and what control a woman should have over her body and pretending its a political issue. But then you already knew that.
Here’s what Pramoedya Ananta Toer – certainly not your everyday rightwing nutter – had to say about this.
Just as politics cannot be separated from life, life cannot be separated from politics. People who consider themselves to be non-political are no different, they’ve already been assimilated by the dominant political culture – they just don’t feel it anymore.
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what control a woman should have over her body
When a woman is pregnant her body is also home to another body.
If one takes this rationale to its logical outcome then suicide would also be a matter of exclusive rights over one’s own body. -
If one takes this rationale to its logical outcome then suicide would also be a matter of exclusive rights over one’s own body.
Well euthanasia perhaps if you want to open another can of worms, although I would think you need to delete the word logical and insert extreme.
When a woman is pregnant her body is also home to another body
Indeed and I pretty sure most women don’t need a bunch of blokes and church telling her the implications of that.
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This discussion has become a pembicaraan buntu.. To transpose Kipling’s famous words into a contemporary western setting:
“OH, Left is Left, and Right is Right, and never the twain shall meet,”
Thank you for your time.
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Not sure what bonni feels is so funny about the widescale killing of baby girls, perhaps she can explain.
I actually refer it to you guys, talking about gender based abortions… Seeing you guys actually care to talk about it amuse me in some ways. I personally don’t reccomend abortion, but if it’s to protect women’s life then it surely can be done, or must be done. Btw, it’s also our uterus you guys are talking about, not just the babies. I wish men carry babies in their uterus – if only they could have – too so they can really experience it, and really talk about it. To be raped and have to carry the baby and give birth to it. To be not wanting something that is attached to you and would hurt you in the next 9 months. And that is not the end of it. Such an experience you guys would have for sure. If it’s for medical reasons, who are there to blame? Let’s not remember about the fork for a while, remember it’s our uterus. The other motives, personal motives, I won’t comment, though at the end it’s still women’s rights to choose. It’s our uterus, remember? Men to have some “say” about that? Surely, yes, but it depends. In rape cases do men have “say”? Like seriously they want it? Let’s not talk about religion. Even contraception is wrong. Pfffttt…
Oigal,
I could be wrong BB however I would reckon Bonnie is referring to a bunch of blokes debating how much and what control a woman should have over her body and pretending its a political issue. But then you already knew that.
Thank you oigal for telling BB what I meant. Thank you. No more comments.
I’m interested in ET’s post though:
I have heard there has been at some time discussions in the UK whether gender based abortions (the pregnant woman having the choice to have an abortion in case she isn’t satisfied with the gender of her future child).would be allowed. Do you happen to have information on this issue?
Wow, this is huge! Curious!
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timdog says:
The current edition of Inside Indonesia is on the topic of “the Left in Indonesia” – http://insideindonesia.org/ – and has some very interesting pieces.
Mind you, as much of the recent “discussion” in these parts seems to have rested on the idea that being “left-wing” principally involves loving gays and immigrants (and being right-wing, presumably, therefore involving not liking gays and immigrants so much), it might be a little rarefied for some…
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Mind you, as much of the recent “discussion” in these parts seems to have rested on the idea that being “left-wing” principally involves loving gays and immigrants (and being right-wing, presumably, therefore involving not liking gays and immigrants so much), it might be a little rarefied for some…
I doubt it is very rarefied for anyone Timdog. Largely due to those issues being shoved down our throats by the mainstream media on a daily basis.
I think the point is what people really think, as oppossed to the left instructing people on what to think. However I am the first to admit Indonesia may benefit from a bit more lefty thinking.
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Ah the ever so erudite timdog adds some more straw men from his rarified heights.
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Am I alone in being amused at the way a bunch of guys who have immigrated to the world’s biggest Muslim country, work, socialise & marry Asian Muslims, are being portrayed as white nationalist, anti immigration racists, by some on IM?
It gives a true picture of the level of tolerance these self proclaimed “liberals & progressives” have towards people with different beliefs. Any divergence of opinion is met with personal attacks and extreme misrepresentations of the others belief system, in an obvious attempt to dehumanise and demonise them as lesser beings.
Imagine how liberal & progressive a country would be run by that lot! I can imagine the refugees and boat people preferring the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea [sic], that wonderful workers paradise and monument to progressive thought.
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Interesting article TD, although not sure if author could be taken seriously, why there’s nary a word on the defining attributes of the left, gay rights, fox hunts and late term abortions.
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Perhaps for the blindingly obvious reason that, unlike in the west, the left in Indonesia still seek to represent the issues of concern to Indonesian workers and low-income people rather than those of middle class university educated liberals?
Christ, the obdurate denseness of some posters here really knows no bounds. There are none so blind as they who will not see.
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I know BB, I know. It’s awful isn’t it?
I’m in the UK at the moment, and despite such crucial, and manifestly political current issues, as top rates of income tax, public spending, party funding, and NHS “reform”, the only things I’ve heard discussed by the Labour front bench and the left-leaning minority of the media commentariat are gay marriage, free late term abortions for immigrants, and animal rights… yep, just like that…
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Only last month the Daily Telegraph ran a series of investigations on this very issue, you can access the investigation here.