Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia
Feb 28th, 2011, in Featured, News, by Patung
Due to lack of time and motivation there are going to be more of these informal posts, which, I will endeavour to exclude from the RSS feed/mailouts/Facebook page [so far failing at that], so you’ll have to actually check the site to see if anything new. It’s better than nothing and the best way to go forward I think as we have a small community here that likes to talk about all sorts of things.
……
A few things on the middle east turmoil which have landed in front of me and might be of interest. I don’t keep track of world news or any news much at the moment so plenty I’ve probably missed but here goes:
This video is very popular in the Arab world apparently, even though it’s an Israeli made thing:
My favourite comment (from an American) on the airstrike on protesters in Libya:
…….But still: Qaddafi and his sons ruled in the old way, with nothing but their strong right arms. God bless the simplicity of these noble desert peoples! God keep them safe in their own countries, and out of ours! I’m struggling to think of a previous event in which someone has called in an airstrike on the mob. Grapeshot for a demonstration – yes. Machine guns? Naval artillery? It’s all been done. But an airstrike? Now that’s got to be some shock and awe. You’re just peacefully out demonstrating with your picket signs, ski masks and sharpened agricultural tools, when a MiG blasts in out of nowhere and gives you some GPS-guided love. Wow! Qaddafi, like the honey badger, just doesn’t give a sh*t.
By the way, my favourite (apparent – I just saw it on a blog once, no link) quote from Quaddifi, from years ago I think, sort of referencing his Africa first policy:
May God keep the Arabs well, and far away.
And to try to tie this in to the theme of this site – Indonesia – here is “Indonesia: An Example for Egypt, or a Democracy in Retreat?” by Robin Bush of The Asia Foundation, which seems to boil down to:
Indonesia has come a long way in a relatively short time and deserves much of the praise that is rather belatedly starting to come its way. It does provide an important example for Egypt, as a Muslim country that overthrew a dictator and integrated Islamic parties effectively into its democratic system. And, it has much to offer the region in the way of leadership on democratic transitions and reform. However, if it is to truly become a credible leader on regional and international platforms, it will have to confront head-on its own glaring problems in the areas of human rights and corruption. Many of the gains that Indonesia made in its reform process were made 10 years ago and have not advanced since. Now, a second wave of reform is needed to ensure that the country is able to live up to its tremendous potential – for the good of its own citizens and for the global community.
In the words of Madrotter… EnJoY!!!!!
129 Comments on “Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia”
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Lairedion says:
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Arie Brand says:
Are we dealing in Libya with a democratic uprising or a civil war? The answer is unclear but will presumably be: a bit of both. Eastern tribes, once favoured by King Idris, have traditionally been more anti-Gaddafi than the Western ones. However, in a vast urbanisation movement the tribes got mixed up in the two metropolitan centers: Tripoli and Benghazi. Members of Western tribes, now living in Benghazi, seem to have also come out against the Colonel etc. In addition there is now a small educated elite that presumably is somewhat more able to rise above tribal affiliations. It looks as if Gaddafi is going to be undone by his own attempts to ‘modernise’ and ’emancipate’ his country while retaining his crude tribal style of government.
See this informative article in the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/world/africa/22tripoli.html?src=recg
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Mmmm… I still have one minor issue with all this. I have no problem with bombing Gaddafi back to the stone age but I still don’t the target selection. How is what is happening there worse than say Yemen, Bahrain, Burma, Sudan etc etc.
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ET says:
Hans-Peter Friedrich
Innenminister – “Islam gehört nicht zu Deutschland”Angela Merkel
Bundeskanzlerin – “Multikulti ist gescheitert”David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy agree.
They are waking up. Finally.
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Well yes – but here too “the better is the enemy of the good”. If one desired to have all these dismal places targeted at once the probable result would be that none of them would be. Let us be thankful that on this occasion the UN has adopted a resolution in which “the protection of the civilian population” is a central element – whatever the motivation of the countries that voted for it. This has created a valuable precedent.
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I have no problem with bombing Gaddafi back to the stone age but I still don’t the target selection. How is what is happening there worse than say Yemen, Bahrain, Burma, Sudan etc etc.
Gadaffi has been since long a thorn in many countries’ side.
On 24 February 2011, resigned justice minister Mustafa Abdel-Jalil revealed that Muamar Gaddafi personally ordered the Lockerbie bombing.
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ET, it is an intriguing question why multiculturalism still seems to be alive and well, here in Australia. I think one element in this is that migration from Islamic countries, particularly the North African ones, has been relatively insignificant. When, however, it was recently rumoured that the shadow minister for immigration had pleaded, in the party room, for restrictions on the immigration of Moslems, there was an immediate outcry from the government and an instant denial from the Opposition. Allegedly it had never been said.
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Arie Brand
After John Howard lost the 2007 elections political Australia seems to have gotten under the spell of a certain outerwordly political correctness. At the grassroots level however things don’t always seem so rosy (e.g. Cronulla and other riots), at least from what can be picked up here in the media and from personal accounts of friends and visitors.
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Gadaffi has been since long a thorn in many countries’ side.
Worse than say, China, North Korea, Pakistan, Iran? Granted harder targets but…
Then again if you are saying that then the “protection of civilians” is just a cover to slam him because he is a thorn? Don’t get me wrong, he’s is pig and deserves what he gets but a pig amongst many. The bloody Bahraini’s are shooting up hospitals and nurses simply as an extension of the Shi’a Sunni happy family thing.
I still don’t get why just him?
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for restrictions on the immigration of Moslems,
I do so love these “shock-jock” statements. It has nothing to do with religion but if someone is prepared to accept the rule of law and democracy in Australia and it is simply absurd to suggest just because someone is Muslim (or any other religion/cult) they could not do that.
To suggest the there should be a total suspension of Muslim Immigration into Australia as per the loony Christian Democrat party for instance is nothing more than ignorant racism.
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Oh and just doesn’t one just long for the mono-culture of Australia of the fifties..not..
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Oigal
Then again if you are saying that then the “protection of civilians” is just a cover to slam him because he is a thorn?
When do politicians ever speak the truth? What could be more convenient than ‘protection of civilians’ to safeguard the flow of oil and get rid of a pain in the ass in one go? Money talks and bullshit walks while hypocrisy remains a tribute to virtue. In a few months it will be nothing more than a footnote in history.
Oh and just doesn’t one just long for the mono-culture of Australia of the fifties..not.
I don’t know about the fifties but the nineties were OK.
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Nineties were just fine..don’t get me wrong, its a mystery to me why Sheik “dress like a piece of meat” has not been deported but to progress to ban all Muslims is just plain ignorant.
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After John Howard lost the 2007 elections political Australia seems to have gotten under the spell of a certain outerwordly political correctness. At the grassroots level however things don’t always seem so rosy (e.g. Cronulla and other riots), at least from what can be picked up here in the media and from personal accounts of friends and visitors.
It is not easy to find out what is really thought on the ‘grassroots level’ on these issues but the conservative opposition obviously sees bread in its populist playing on the fears and prejudices of people. Compared to many European countries Australia has only minor problems with refugees for instance but these are blown up out of proportion by unscrupulous pollies who are mainly after electoral gain.
The so-called ‘boat people’ form a small percentage of the refugees but all attention is focussed on them because there is potential political gain in playing on an old Australian fear that one day the country might be swamped by invaders coming from the North (an updated version of “The Yellow Peril”).
Incidentally, the Cronulla riots, from one perspective a conflict between two neighbourhood groups about beach turf, have in my view been heavily exaggerated.
Having said all this I must recognise that in my country of origin, Holland, certain migrant groups have turned out to be far less assimilable than others. This is particularly the case with the Moroccans. Australia did not have to go through that test. It is correct to say that Australia has the highest percentage of foreign born people in the world but as far as I know the ex-Brits are the largest group among these and they are of course not particularly difficult migrants – notwithstanding traditional Australian grumbles about “whingeing Poms”.
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Arie Brand
It is not easy to find out what is really thought on the ‘grassroots level’
About this ‘grassroots’ level. Holland and other European countries of course cannot be put on a par with places like Australia, Canada and the USA where the majority can only trace their lineage as natural born citizens back to a limited number of generations. They are themselves countries build by pioneers which should make them principally somewhat more responsive to accommodate newcomers. However the problems start to appear – sometimes violently – when these newcomers become a threat to the kind of society the former pioneers, whose memory is often still alive, had in mind and the values their society was build upon. I have never met people more attached to their Constitution than Americans and willing to defend it with their lives.
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Yes it is of course true that a nation of migrants is more migration minded. However, Holland, and to a certain extent England, have for centuries been a place of asylum for groups that were driven out elsewhere. Some examples: many of the Portuguese Jews who were driven out of the Iberian peninsula settled in Amsterdam (to which Holland owes its greatest philosopher, Spinoza). The same happened with the Huguenots after the retraction of the Edict of Nantes. And do I have to add that the ‘Pilgrim Fathers’ departed for America from Holland?
The assimilation of a few hundred thousand Indo Europeans in the fifties took place without much trouble. Equally so that of the black Surinamese. The Turks have not done too badly either. But I understand that the Moroccans have been a tough nut to crack.
When I talk about the assimilation of migrant groups I am not referring to a knowledge of the national anthem and such things but to them not showing up unfavourably in statistics about unemployment, criminality, welfare swindles, absolved education etc.
However the problems start to appear – sometimes violently – when these newcomers become a threat to the kind of society the former pioneers, whose memory is often still alive, had in mind and the values their society was build upon.
Frankly, I don’t know of any such groups in Australia. Which group in the USA are you referring to?
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Frankly, I don’t know of any such groups in Australia. Which group in the USA are you referring to?
The Latinos, in particular Mexicans who come in overwhelming numbers, mostly aliens, and start making ‘irrational’ demands.
There are problems in other states like Michigan and Wisconsin with Somalis, but on a lesser scale. -
Compare the new immigrants…
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…to those of yore.
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E.T.
I imagine that one can find photographs of adolescents in almost any ethnic group behaving in a similar fashion. What do they prove? That adolescents sometimes behave obnoxiously, but we knew that already, didn’t we.
For a different perspective:
“One can either focus their political rage on the billionaires who dominate the economy and Congress —Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, etc. — or those millions of undocumented immigrants, many who get paid lower than minimum wage and are living in society’s shadows.
The corporate media would rather you focus on immigrants. Thus, Fox News and virtually all other media outlets spew nightly venom at a vulnerable public, looking to get revenge on immigrants who “ruined America.” There is an obvious connection to this type of racist propaganda and the increase in hate crimes against Latinos that has exploded over the years.
Latinos are blamed for everything from lower wages, violent and non-violent crimes, to just about everything else. There is no exaggeration to say that Hitler played a similar blame-game for Germany’s economic and social woes with Jews and other minorities.Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles was quoted in The New York Times when he correctly pointed out: “Every time we have an economic downturn, there is a new attack on immigrants…” (May 1, 2010).
The right-wing exploits this claim when they accuse immigrants of lowering the wages of “native” U.S. workers, but the full truth of why a tidal wave of immigrants entered the U.S. is never told.
In reality, the same Wall Street corporations that in part caused the current recession and benefited from it via bailouts are also responsible for the destruction of the Mexican economy and the consequent migration wave.”
See further at http://www.counterpunch.org/cooke05042010.html
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realest says:
The word incompetent comes to mind when any country gets someone like this:
who turned out to be this guy decades later:
Gary Locke, former governor of Washington, current US ambassador for China -
Hans says:
August 1814 was Sweden’s last “proper” war. After participating with the Swedish troops in the allied coalition against France in the Napoleonic Wars in 1813. August 1814 was Sweden’s last “proper” war.
This are nearly 200 years ago, what is it that happens. We have no Army, we have a few soldiers, and lots of high technology, how will this go.
our new battle plan, in violation might it be such a JAS is able to knock out ten older Mirage in battle, but we still have no major combat effectiveness army.
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Arie Brand
or those millions of undocumented immigrants,
Yes, this seems nowadays the politically correct term for what used to be illegal aliens, at the expense of those who follow the rules and stand in line to have their paperwork done properly.
I don’t enter discussions based on political affiliation or ideology. I only report from personal experience or investigation and from those people I know personally and whose judgement I trust. If not I always try to mention my sources. The pictures I posted were only to illustrate that immigration has shifted for a large part from people trying to make a decent living far away from home to scum whose only purpose is to sponge the welfare state, impose their own rules or go in hiding and feed on other’s vices.
I don’t see the need to look for statistics on crime and immigration because it invites an endless back and forth depending on which body or institution has funded the investigation. Political hot topics seldom show no color. What bothers me however is the leftliberal resoluteness – NYT in pole position – to downplay or even defile their own nests, insinuating racism on behalf of those who are in disagreement, all the while apologizing for those who have no intention to assimilate or contribute positively. We’ve seen and heard it all before.
Here are a few more anecdotes. Trivial as they may be, they speak for themselves.
In Texas , a student raised a Mexican flag on a school flag pole; another student took it down.. Guess who was expelled…the kid who took it down.
Kids in high school in California were sent home this year on Cinco de Mayo because they wore T-shirts with the American flag printed on them.
To David et al. my apologies for being out of topic.
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Kids in high school in California were sent home this year on Cinco de Mayo because they wore T-shirts with the American flag printed on them.
There you go, I thought until a little while ago that it was only a Swedish problem. reverse racism I call it. -
British authorities of ignoring the trafficking of white women
Published January 6th, 2011 at 16:20
Experts argue that they are officially known figures are only part of a tidal wave of assaults in central and northern England that lasted for over a decade. Police Chief Alan Edwards believes that fear of being called racist do to get the authorities to address the problem of Pakistani women who “pass around” young white British, aged 11-16 years among his relatives.Daily Mail, which recently brought the matter to mean that efforts to tackle the problem has been hampered by the organizations working together with police to assist victims has taken into account ethnic and publicly gone out and lied about that there are no ethnic patterns between those who are perpetrators and victims in this type of crime.
In a study that found 56 offenders convicted of this type of crime came from 53 different Asian immigrant groups and three were white. Mohammad Shafiq on Rammadhan Foundation expresses some surprise that the police fail to do their job for fear of racist “label.
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I don’t see a connection with this thread. This is more for RRA.
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The time that nations could live more or less snugly behind their linguistic and other cultural barriers (not to speak of the physical ones) is definitely gone. There are migratory movements everywhere. Of course these cause friction and the normal difficulties of different people having to get along with each other are aggravated by a stream of generally negative anecdotes and the sensationalist and negative reporting of the tabloids and the comments of the shock jocks.
In this type of reporting and rumour mongering even the messing about with flags of some high school students provides food for ‘national news’.
I think it behoves everybody with a good measure of critical acumen (among whom I count you ET) to look at this very sceptically – and on the basis of the general proposition that it is the weak and vulnerable who invariably get the short end of the stick in these matters.
And re the flag anecdote:
I would like to know whether any ‘mainstream’ comment on that messing about with the Mexican flag mentioned that it took place in a part of the US that was once part of Mexico and of which it was robbed by ‘might of arms’. So it seemed as symbolic for a historical grudge as for the presence of a great number of Mexicans in that environment.
I liked what I read of Ulysses Grant’s comment on that war, originally in an essay by Gore Vidal and now in Wikipedia. Here it is:
Grant’s views on the war:
President Ulysses S. Grant, who as a young army lieutenant had served in Mexico under General Taylor, recalled in his Memoirs, published in 1885, that:
Generally, the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory.[58]
Grant also expressed the view that the war against Mexico had brought punishment on the United States in the form of the American Civil War:
The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times.[59] -
Maybe they should let the door wide open for Asian immigrants, after all they did contribute to the place more than the other immigrants (which literally means everyone after the american indians)
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after all they did contribute to the place more than the other immigrants
Really???
Not wanting to get into an inane and silly debate about about relative worth of one group of immigrants over another as they all bring something different to the table, however
I would suggest that to most the might of USA power by the end of World War 2 had more to do with European migrants not Asian. For the very simple reason and logical reason of numbers and opportunity. -
Arie Brand
I would like to know whether any ‘mainstream’ comment on that messing about with the Mexican flag mentioned that it took place in a part of the US that was once part of Mexico and of which it was robbed by ‘might of arms’. So it seemed as symbolic for a historical grudge as for the presence of a great number of Mexicans in that environment.
It is not the incident of the flag raising itself which is the problem. It could have been as you said a belated expression of historical grudge or just a plain juvenile prank. The problem lies with the reaction of the ‘authorities’ who expelled the boy that took the flag down and which is symptomatic for a certain leftlib mentality towards treason of their own heritage and values. No nation is free of abuse and injustice during its formation and history and least of all the USA. But this masochistic revisionist exhibition of guilt, the reversal of traditional common values and the obsessive compulsion to redress past wrongs with positive discrimination sometimes borders at the ludicrous. It has even given birth to a whole range of new terminologies like illegal alien = undocumented immigrant, synthetic fiber = cruelty-free materials, bums or welfare leeches = The Disadvantaged, high crime area = multicultural community, swamps = delicate wetlands, love child = unwanted pregnancy etc. etc.
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