Swiss Minaret Ban Outrage
Dec 1st, 2009, in News, by Patung
Indonesian government and religious leaders defend religious freedom for Swiss Muslims.
Leader of Indonesia’s largest Muslim organisation, Nahdlatul Ulama (PBNU), KH Hasyim Muzadi, said of the recent referendum vote in Switzerland to forbid the construction of new minarets on mosques
It’s regrettable, it shows the Swiss are not tolerant about religious freedom.
The man reputed to be the 18th most influential Muslim figure in the world, and the leader of the august World Council on Religions for Peace (WCRP) said the NU would send a note to the Swiss embassy in Jakarta asking for an explanation of the matter.
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Marty Natalegawa, joined in protesting: thejakartapost
We are deeply disappointed by the Swiss decision, which is contradictory to its image as an inclusive and tolerant nation
On 14th October 2009, Swiss ambassador to Indonesia, Bernardino Regazzoni, had informed both the Indonesian government and the NU about the upcoming vote, and assured both that the Swiss government strongly opposed the plan to ban minarets.
Just over 57% of those who turned out voted ‘Yes’, with a majority in 22 out of 26 cantons. The proposal was put forward by Switzerland’s largest party, the opposition hard-right Swiss People’s Party (SVP), as a supposed measure against Islamization, while the Swiss government opposed it. antara
147 Comments on “Swiss Minaret Ban Outrage”
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wong cilik says:
@ pak vijay yang bijaksana
The presence of Non Muslim/foreign worker in Saudi is for economic reason; Saudi agreement with foreign worker / non-Moslem can be viewed as agreement between traders.And let see, what islam said about trade and business
The two conditions of trading are offer and acceptance. It is accomplished by the consent of two parties (buyer and seller) in terms of offer and exchange.
The prerequisites of trading are of two categories. The first of these is concerning the contractors (the two parties of the trading process), namely, the condition of puberty (mature and sane people). The second is relevant to the material being exchanged or purchased, namely; its purity, usefulness, the ownership (i.e., it should be actually owned by the seller), the ability to be submitted to the recipient, and knowing its descriptions.
In this case, Saudi (seller) has explained to the non- Muslim/foreign worker (buyer) about what they can get and what they cannot. if both of them agree, sign contract and live with it.
Freedom of Religion is not something that is tied to citizenship, it too, is a basic human right,
I am agree with you that freedom of religion is a basic human right, therefore Saudi Government recognize the right of non-Muslims to worship in private but not publicly, every government has their own policies in regard of freedom of religion, some country they allow mosque but not minaret and veil. And Saudi they allow non – muslim to worship privately but not publicly.
They different is Saudi tell non – muslim what they can give and what they can not give prior of the agreement and their arrival to Saudi.
Some part in the West, they said yes we can give. but after the agreement signed, in the middle of the contract, they said yes we can give this but not this. Yes previously no problem, but now big problem.
So, I am pity if any French moslem which their daughter suddenly decide to stay at home for the rest of her life because government decision to ban veil.This is mencla – mencle decision kan pak
@ mbak rima yang baik
My intention mentioning Vatican is because the similarity with Saudi. They are sovereign country, their citizen 100% same religion, and they have similar role in religion.
and about Filipino,i try to explain the existence of non – muslim (such as Filipino) as foreign worker in saudi.
But you are right, Filipino worker are better trained and protected by their government. Indonesia needs a lot of hard work to catch up.
You don’t believe me? watch this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/11/17/indonesia.sex.slave/index.htmlI believe you mbak, it is very sad. But it does not happen only in Saudi. Even in country like America At least 100,000 and perhaps as many as 300,000 children are victims of sex trafficking each year.
First of all, for immigrants in any country to get a citizenship is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.
I am agree with you, but when my brother nice guy comment
It is not a human right to be an expat in saudi arabia, it is a privillige. if they dont like saudi rules (which includes not having a church) they are freely welcome to go somewhere else.
I am the only one who give him thumbs up so far, the others (including you may be) give him thumbs down, why dong mbak? Bingung deh……
What Swiss is banning (as a result of a democratic poll by all their citizens) is just the minarets, not the mosques
The advocate of this policy have equated minarets to islamisation, with caricatures on poster showing the physical similarities between minarets and missiles. Criticts have pointed out that mosques seemed to be discriminated against, as sikh temples and orthodox churches did not face such difficulties in the country.
It is the strong reaction to the harmless request by swiss muslim to add minaret to its mosque that has led to global outrage. Even the swiss bishops conference has issued a statement condemning the shocking results of the referendum
If swiss ban minarets in fair manner, I think moslem will not have any complain.
There is nothing in Islam that requires minaret. While it is a norm of mosque design, some of the most important mosques in the Moslem world don’t have them.
Today we have many ways to call us when it’s time to pray so haunting call from high in a minaret to told the faithful the time for prayer is no longer necessary.You will never see Christian people be given permission to build churches now in Aceh, for example. And most Muslims think that non Muslims are kufurs and as a minority in their country should not be given any rights
Yes, Aceh is bad example in treating minority
My true? No, the general true
What they say as the general true, some time just not represent muslim.
Many times UN decide something even with objection from 57 member of OIC, or majority of its member agree to make resolution, suddenly they use their veto power.
But they still called this is the general decisionYou know, orang Barat does not hate Islam or Muslims. It’s the other way around. Orang Islam hates the West and westerns, especially Christians and Jews and I really cannot see why,
May be your right, west does not hate Islam, they just come to iraq and afganishtan to bomb, they come to Indonesia jadi penjajah, they ban moslem freedom on the name of Jendral freedom.they just do it
And If I do something good now is not because I want points to go to ‘heaven’ but it’s just to do good for the sake of doing good and to see other people happy.
It is your choice mbak rima, but for me if I do something good(hard work) now is not because I just do good(hard work) for the sake of doing good(hard work), but also because I want to enjoy the result of doing good(hard work) on the day when I will not be able to do any more good(hard work).
mohon maaf kalau banyak salah kata
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rima says:
@cukurungan: what fawzia said.
But even if you managed to prove that somehow there are NO teachings that promotes hate towards the ‘non-believers’ the words kufur/kafir or infidel to describe them already promotes segregation and what follow is naturally hate. I remember as a little girl being taught NOT to have non Moslem bestfriends, and that even my non Moslem girl friends aren’t my mahram, therefore I mustn’t show my aurat to them. And then there is also the usual ‘Christians are bad’ and ‘Jews are our enemy’ doctrine. I went to several different schools, from public to Madrassas/Pesantren, and the message is always the same. Compared notes with my other apostate friends, and they have more or less the same experience growing up. Such a shame because hate, especially out of ignorance, is just a very very silly thing..@fawzia:
Oh yes, I didn’t mean that Malaysia’s ‘tolerance’ is comparable to that of the western nations, but as radicalism and fanaticism is on the rise in Indonesia, if Indonesia wants to model a nation on its being a Muslim nation but with (somewhat of a) respect towards the minority, they should model it after Malaysia with some modifications.Brunei is even more tolerant than Malaysia from what I can tell. The people are really nice by default and minorities are given the chance to have high positions in the government. But it also boils down to the fact that it’s a very small country with very small amount of people which is much easier to manage. And although they are a Muslim country, their ‘Melayu’ roots are really strong, it’s not overpowered by the middle eastern culture, plus, their Sultan is a very wise man.
Yeah, I know the Lina Joy and Revathi Masoosai cases, it’s really sad to see something like that. Good thing that doesn’t happen in Indonesia. The worst case scenario for Indonesian apostates is to be cut off from their families.
I also belong to the non-prophet organization, but I still believe in God (I think it’s been too deeply embedded in my mind that there is a God, but what I believe in now is my own version, one that’s kind and doesn’t discriminate anyone based on gender, color or religion) and I share your sentiments when it comes to religions, especially organized religions.
And your comment about many Iranian non believers, well, three of my close friends here are Iranians, under 35 and are all non believers. One is gay and escaped because he was about to be killed. I know other Iranians who are non believers, and who still call themselves muslim but are very liberal in their ways of thinking, almost western-like. Of course they are mostly very highly educated people therefore very pleasant to have conversations with.
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@wong cilik:
My intention mentioning Vatican is because the similarity with Saudi. They are sovereign country, their citizen 100% same religion, and they have similar role in religion.
The thing is, if Vatican City is as big as Saudi, with as much people, and even no nationals who are Muslim and only migrant workers, your mentioning it is valid. But again, it’s a tiny state, almost twice as big as a shopping mall in Washington, with absolutely no Muslims, nationals or workers living in it. So there is no sense to build a mosque there, especially when the biggest mosque in Europe is a stone’s throw away from Vatican City and was blessed by Pope John Paul upon it’s building.
Yes of course it doesn’t only happen in Saudi, but in other countries of the world, there are harsh punishments for those sex traffickers when caught, while in Saudi, NO MIGRANT WORKERS will be chosen over an Arab. Arabs are arrogant and they even think that other Moslems, if they are non Arabs, are of a lesser class. You know what’s happening in Sudan, yes?
So if Inem is raped and abused constantly and then because she can’t take the constant sodomize/rape and abuse and one day poisons/hits her employer and is caught, she will be guaranteed to end up with death penalty.
They (Arabs) are so unfair, they want our money (Indonesian pilgrims’ money) every year, they want to have cheap labor from our country, but they don’t care about us, even if we share the same beliefs. We are nothing but servants that should obey them in every sense of the word which is why I don’t get why Indonesia worships them so much, more and more each day.
what nice guy said, it’s a privilege for poor women from Indonesian kampungs to be domestic helpers in Saudi, that’s true, because they earn much more than they can earn back home. But for expats, it’s not a ‘privilege’ per se because most expats working in Saudi are requested to work there, to work on their country’s infrastructure, economy etc. Of course they are given good pay, but still they were requested, or in other words, headhunted so that they can apply what they know/share their knowledge, with Saudi Arabia.
I think that is why nobody gave him a thumbs up.
You know what, you say the minaret request is harmless, but for the good people of Switzerland it might not be.
I know how they feel because I am also living in a European country with very very aggressive and radical young Moslems that are even making their elderly uncomfortable because apparently their older generations are a bunch of peaceful people who moved to Europe to have a better living condition and guaranteed freedom of all things they couldn’t get in their home countries.
Plus, like you said, many western nations and even bishops think that the ban is something that shouldn’t have been done. What more does Moslems want? There are infidels on their side and still they are angry and act like a spoiled child who wants absolutely EVERYTHING they want? That can’t happen, even the richest person in the world cannot have ALL that he wants.
you said:
If swiss ban minarets in fair manner, I think moslem will not have any complain.
There is nothing in Islam that requires minaret. While it is a norm of mosque design, some of the most important mosques in the Moslem world don’t have them.
Today we have many ways to call us when it’s time to pray so haunting call from high in a minaret to told the faithful the time for prayer is no longer necessary.If you already say that there is nothing in Islam that requires a minaret, and that today we have many ways to tell us that it’s time for prayer, why is this being turned into such a big deal then by the Moslem world? I really don’t get it. You don’t see Christians/Buddhists/Hindus wanting to have giant Jesus/Buddha/Hundu God statues erected everywhere in Indonesia do you?
General truth doesn’t represent Muslims? Hmm.. I think it represents everybody with the right logic and common sense. It also doesn’t represent crazy christians like Bush and his KKK ancestors, it doesn’t represent the radical Hindus, the IRA bombers, Hitler, Genghis Khan etc, but that’s because all these people seem to be missing a heart and in many cases, brains.
The system of the UN isn’t perfect either, but for the most cases it’s already better than nothing. And FYI, ‘the west’ who came to Iraq doesn’t represent ALL western countries, they are sadly a bunch of hyprocritical people who aren’t better than those they ‘invade’.
And btw, Indonesians are also invaders, we invade Papua, Aceh (during Soeharto), East Timor, and now we invade our minorities. But the west did not come to ban moslem freedom because there is no such thing as moslem freedom, at least, not to the women, the poor and the non Arabs anyway.
Also, Islam is as foreign as Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism, these religions were all imported from foreign lands, so it makes no sense to see Indonesian Muslims feeling more worthy or more rightful of the country and the freedom to live and worship than their non Moslem brothers and sisters.
And wong cilik, no need to apologize, we are having a discussion here and you haven’t attacked me on a personal level, so I’m still enjoying this discussion we have.
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ET says:
@ Sighjay
What is it with this us versus the west nonsense that spouts so easily from mouths in Indonesia?
Could it be economic jealousy?
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Ross says:
ET, you may well be right, saying that in the end the people’s will must prevail, but you are also probably right in saying that insurrection might have to be the way to achieve this. otherwise, as in Russia several generations might have to live in servitude before liberty prevails.
There are other examples, some too close to home to be comforting. Sure, the will of the people is not going to triumph in for example Iran, or Cuba, or Zimbabwe, while evil tyrants can outgun the citizenry.
But given the oppressive elitism of the EU, the inspiration of which comes from Vichy collaborationists like Schuman and pro-Nazis like Spaak, there is little chance of today’s Eurocrats allowing nations a free choice, so armed resistance will soon be a legitimate option.
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Cukurungan says:
@cukurungan: what fawzia said.
But even if you managed to prove that somehow there are NO teachings that promotes hate towards the ‘non-believers’ the words kufur/kafir or infidel to describe them already promotes segregation and what follow is naturally hate. I remember as a little girl being taught NOT to have non Moslem bestfriends, and that even my non Moslem girl friends aren’t my mahram, therefore I mustn’t show my aurat to them. And then there is also the usual ‘Christians are bad’ and ‘Jews are our enemy’ doctrine. I went to several different schools, from public to Madrassas/Pesantren, and the message is always the same. Compared notes with my other apostate friends, and they have more or less the same experience growing up. Such a shame because hate, especially out of ignorance, is just a very very silly thing..Many thanks for your honesty that Muslim should hate non-believers are just your own invention and it is not teaching written in Quran and Hadist.
I do not blame you because if 10 people read the same book will result 10 different interpretations depend on individual IQ level, personality and experience and knowledge.
It is the same thing with Quran and Hadist, there more than billions people read both books, 1 billions of them say that books is very good and provide them guidance for their life but in other hand there are some people who said otherwise like you and Fawzia and most IM forumers.
Therefore as I said there is no single reason for Muslim to hate your kind because as mbah Surip said we love you full but we can not help you because your brain is wired differently from the rest of us. -
Oigal says:
we can not help you because your brain is wired differently from the rest of us.
No Cuk, we cannot help you because your brain is wired differently from the rest of us.
I do not blame you because if 10 people read the same book will result 10 different interpretations
I agree although kind of makes a mockery of the claim that Koran remains unchanged since written (historicial nonsense anyway but so oft claimed) as there would be no point in worrying about the message changing then.
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donny says:
Good Morning, Cuk !!
always happy to see you commenting =D
It is the same thing with Quran and Hadist, there more than billions people read both books, 1 billions of them say that books is very good and provide them guidance for their life but in other hand there are some people who said otherwise like you and Fawzia and most IM forumers.
I do not blame you because if 10 people read the same book will result 10 different interpretations
now tell me, my friend … how could a supposedly holy book, which should act as guidance towards mankind is sooo confusing, that it may be interpreted in many many many many different ways ? of which cannot be understood easily and need tafseer … and lead to many many misinterpretation ??
and tell me now … how can we believe that YOUR interpretation is the correct one ? hahahaaaa …
and please read history of Islam, first before commenting, Cuk
since apparently you’ve been brainwashed and cannot see the truth …Prophet Muhammad even called Jews monkey and pigs … see the similarity with Nazi ?
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really ??
I am agree with you that freedom of religion is a basic human right, therefore Saudi Government recognize the right of non-Muslims to worship in private but not publicly, every government has their own policies in regard of freedom of religion, some country they allow mosque but not minaret and veil. And Saudi they allow non – muslim to worship privately but not publicly.
BULLSHIT … !! my friend worked in Saudi Arabia … and tell me a sad story that last year her “place of worship” is raided
place of worship here means a room (PRIVATE ROOM) used by 5 people to pray just for 2 hours every sunday … in other time of the week, its a simple apartment room
and now muslims complaining about Switzerland ban on MINARET ?? not mosque
anyone with right mind can see that this is double standard, yet muslims plays victim …
thank you for showing us the real side of Islam, my friend …
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sighjay says:
The presence of Non Muslim/foreign worker in Saudi is for economic reason; Saudi agreement with foreign worker / non-Moslem can be viewed as agreement between traders.
And let see, what islam said about trade and business
The two conditions of trading are offer and acceptance. It is accomplished by the consent of two parties (buyer and seller) in terms of offer and exchange
No, no, no, no….this does not absolve Saudi Arabia of it’s human rights obligations. It does not justify the way they treat any workers, salaried or waged, nor does it justify the way most Arab states treat immigrant workers.
Nor the disdain or cruelty towards workers, Muslim and non-Muslim, across the gulf, who are regarded as little better than dirt there to serve the purposes of the Arab elite (and this includes Indonesians..most gulf Arabs despise Indonesians, and it’s ironic to see Indonesians so obliviously subservient to those who quite openly have such a low, and racist, opinion of them).
Your argument is a cop-out and most of mankind has moved beyond such. Hence trade unions and various international covenants which override the your so called conditions of trading.
Once again, I have to ask, when will the Muslim world pull up Saudi Arabia on it’s human rights breaches? Never I guess. Until you do, you have no moral right to say a word about Switzerland (and I actually think Switzerland got it wrong).
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@wong cilik
May be your right, west does not hate Islam, they just come to iraq and afganishtan to bomb, they come to Indonesia jadi penjajah, they ban moslem freedom on the name of Jendral freedom.they just do it
I admit western world do some despicable thing in the past …
about some, they already realize the mistake and change to better ones, for example … penjajahan …
about some … like Afghanistan … I think westerners do something right there …
whereas now women get more rights, people can dance and preserve their culture (original ones), artworks and cultural heritage preserved instead of destroyed …
but of course if you run for general popularity … you’ll die in vainabout Iraq … I admit, Bush is a maniac … and I sincerely hope US withdraws from Iraq
anyhow, as bad as it is, US troops never enforced anyone to embrace other religion …
they even helped build mosque … and never killed anyone for apostasy …the good thing is … westerners DARE to admit that they’re wrong and they start to change it … see how many protested about Iraq ?? never heard muslims supports this minaret ban thing
and could you please elaborate where did they ban muslim freedom on the name of Jendral freedom ?
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Koran remains unchanged since written (historicial nonsense anyway but so oft claimed)
If there is one thing that historians tend to agree on it’s that early Islamic history is unreliable. Most (but not all) agree with Muhammad’s existence, and that he was a self proclaimed prophet, a 7th Century Joseph Smith of sorts, and contributed some, if not most of the Qu’ran, in some form or other, and we know roughly what he thought, but there’s little beyond that. And the evidence that it was adapted over the years to suit is also fairly persuasive.
But, outside of that, what Islamic history does exist from the 7th and 8th Century is contradictory and often self aggrandising.
The evidence that a prophet was active among the Arabs in the early decades of the 7th century, on the eve of the Arab conquest of the middle east, must be said to be exceptionally good.
Everything else about Mohammed is more uncertain, but we can still say a fair amount with reasonable assurance. Most importantly, we can be reasonably sure that the Qur’an is a collection of utterances that he made in the belief that they had been revealed to him by God. The book may not preserve all the messages he claimed to have received, and he is not responsible for the arrangement in which we have them. They were collected after his death – how long after is controversial.
Lots more at the link.
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hey just come to iraq and afganishtan to bomb,
Good grief, get over it and move into the real world.
I don’t agree with the invasion of Iraq or the way the Palestinians are treated in the ME…both are appalling to my mind (and millions of others worldwide, Muslim or not), but neither they nor the invasion of Afghanistan had anything to do with religion, regardless of the beliefs of those involved, including Bush’s half baked born again drivel.
Really, such claims show a complete failure to grasp geopolitics and the politics of oil, water, money and control as they, and not some loopy faux religious paranoia, have driven all such wars.
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I agree although kind of makes a mockery of the claim that Koran remains unchanged since written (historicial nonsense anyway but so oft claimed) as there would be no point in worrying about the message changing then.
I regret to inform you that we have no plan to change the Quran, however, as advice for another human being, you and your kind are cordially invited to create your own holly book and religion, hence, you can joint with Fawzia, Rima and Donny declare that you already meet God and you receive a new holy book to replace the Quran. Do not be shy to use the available holly book such as Bible, Veda or any other holy books you can pick and combine word from those books and claim it your own wording of the New Oighal Religion.
We wish nothing except your success here below few tips to become a cult leader:
http://www.songpoemmusic.com/cults/guru.htmnow tell me, my friend … how could a supposedly holy book, which should act as guidance towards mankind is sooo confusing, that it may be interpreted in many many many many different ways ? of which cannot be understood easily and need tafseer … and lead to many many misinterpretation ??
Could please check again my posting, I never asked anyone to believe my interpretation and I never asked anyone to believe me but I said that I and other more than 100 million muslim Indonesia have different interpretation and finding with you and your kind.
We find nothing except all good things from the Quran and Hadist that guided our life until today if you can not find one “who care” do not blame us, better blame your self or onani saja kale hehehe….baca terus tuh “Buku Untuk Kalangan Sendiri” kelihatan banget deh makin pintarnya . -
Do not be shy to use the available holly book such as Bible, Veda or any other holy books you can pick and combine word from those books and claim it your own wording of the New Oighal Religion.
🙂 Been done, shame the ol bloke couldn’t keep his time lines straight..too much with wacky weed and flying horses perhaps
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Cuk
I’m grateful that you introduce me to Dr. Ali Sina
after reading your posting, I tried to track the name and found his websiteI STRONGLY recommend all to read Dr. Sina’s article and be thankful to Mr. Cuk to introduce us to him
takes me couple of days to read several articles and debates and came to conclusion that he’s RIGHT …
I know now why muslims always play victim, while they’re the real oppressor !!
Cuk … I don’t know how to express my gratitude for your information, your help, your honesty … are you really a muslim ??
Could please check again my posting, I never asked anyone to believe my interpretation and I never asked anyone to believe me but I said that I and other more than 100 million muslim Indonesia have different interpretation and finding with you and your kind.
checked it and still curious
how could a supposedly holy book, which should act as guidance towards mankind is sooo confusing, that it may be interpreted in many many many many different ways ? of which cannot be understood easily and need tafseer … and lead to many many misinterpretation ??
you missed the point, my friend … I never said yours is the correct one
I asked how can we be sure that yours is the correct one ?? yours may be the wrong one, with wrong tafseer thus you MAY worongly understan Koran, right ??We find nothing except all good things from the Quran and Hadist that guided our life until today if you can not find one “who care” do not blame us, better blame your self or onani saja kale hehehe….baca terus tuh “Buku Untuk Kalangan Sendiri” kelihatan banget deh makin pintarnya .
Once more, Cuk … you amazed me with your blatant honesty …
cheers for you, my friend …Everyone, Cuk here demonstrates what we called “BLIND FAITH” …
one who closed his heart and eye, and always try to find scapegoat and excuses for everything bad … in modern world this is called cowardicenow Cuk … I have homework for you … go search internet with keyword : Bani Qoraiza Massacre
and tell me is that right or wrong ??tell me also, is it OK if Syeh Puji married your 9 years old daughter ?? Hey … he’s following Hadith … =D
tell me also, do you beat your wife often ? it is advised in Hadith, you know
and lastly … I really curious … what do you think will happen to Christian & Jew once Islam rule ?? another holocaust ?? like Armenian did (even though they have already paid Jizya yet still exterminated)
funniest one is your claim to be servant of truth … hahahahhaaa =D
your infidel fellow
=D -
BrotherMouzone says:
The majority of arguments here seem to be along the lines of;
“Well, Switzerland might have banned minarets but Muslim countries have done this, that, and the other. So they’re worse. So there.” Yawn.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. (But three rights do make a left). It’s just a lame argument. Does America’s war in Iraq make it okay for Indonesia to invade Thailand? Does the fact that somebody stole my wallet last year justify my stealing your hand phone? Just because somebody else is acting like a d1ck, does not mean we abandon our moral compass.
When evaluating Switzerland’s actions, we have to evaluate them from Switzerland’s perspective. This is a supposedly modern nation which has banned one of its faiths from building a recognizable place of worship because of xenophobia.
Huge disaster for human rights? No.
Regrettable precedent? Yes.
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quite wise, brothermouzone …
When evaluating Switzerland’s actions, we have to evaluate them from Switzerland’s perspective. This is a supposedly modern nation which has banned one of its faiths from building a recognizable place of worship because of xenophobia.
you’re right there … yet your comment shows your tendency and double standard …
When evaluating Saudi’s action, we have to evaluate them from Islamic / Saudi’s perspective. This is a supposedly modern islamic nation which has banned ALL OF OTHER FAITHS EXCEPT ISLAM from doing anything, (including practising faith) or UNISLAMIC because they think all except Islam are infidels and not human being
huge disasters for human rights : NOT YET, but it will certainly be
Regrettable precedent : YES
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Brothermouzone
I recognise you as quite wise … with moral compass in right place
well…it’s a good start …I believe that the essence of what we’re trying to say was :
muslims did not have the rights to “outrage” for Switzerland’s ban on minarets since they did not practise equality on human rights (especially minorities in their countries) yet they WANT equality on full 100% wherever they lived
I believe this should NOT be an issue from the beginning …
we should direct our effort to orphan, disaster victims, and other useful things rather than being angry and protest for some distant country’s law …
by the way, I have never seen aid from Saudis for Indonesian in event of disasters … it’s always bule who do it first …we should look in the mirror ourselves before complaining =D
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@Cuk:
I regret to inform you that we have no plan to change the Quran, however, as advice for another human being, you and your kind are cordially invited to create your own holly book and religion, hence, you can joint with Fawzia, Rima and Donny declare that you already meet God and you receive a new holy book to replace the Quran. Do not be shy to use the available holly book such as Bible, Veda or any other holy books you can pick and combine word from those books and claim it your own wording of the New Oighal Religion.
As far as I can remember, I never ‘declared’ as you say, to have met with God, that’s your kind and other religion followers Modus Operandi. I only believe that there is a higher power, but one that doesn’t discriminate against people based on gender/religion/color. In my book God, if it exists at all, is a higher being who is non judgmental and if he did indeed create all of us, that would make all of us equal in his eyes and he loves all of us the same. He certainly doesn’t have human enemies (read: jews/infidels) because that’s just pathetic.
And personally, I find ALL organized religions to be the same, something that incites hatred ‘in the name of God’ and in many cases it justifies slaughtering other human beings ‘just because they are enemies of God’. So no bible, Veda or whatever for me. I have enough intelligence and life experience to be able to define right from wrong, thank you very much, although my IQ is obviously lower than yours, right.. 😉
So the bit about combining existing holy books? well.. 75% of the content of your holy book is also taken from its predecessors, but whatever rocks your boat cuk…
oh and by the way you might want to click the link below, read it and reassure yourself that all our IQs are lower and how ‘different’ our brains are wired to read what’s written in it and get one thing when the message is clearly all about ‘peace and love’ towards non-believers ;).
And yes, the brains of 5 billion of us are definitely wired differently than yours.
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/132488 -
Everyone, Cuk here demonstrates what we called “BLIND FAITH” …
one who closed his heart and eye, and always try to find scapegoat and excuses for everything bad … in modern world this is called cowardiceAs I said you are pleased to call me whatever you like
how could a supposedly holy book, which should act as guidance towards mankind is sooo confusing, that it may be interpreted in many many many many different ways ? of which cannot be understood easily and need tafseer … and lead to many many misinterpretation ??
You confused ..again blame your self because for me everything is cristal clear as below:
1) Worship to God only
2) Do not cheat, do not lie, do not make sex unless with your wife
3) Pay your debt
4) Respect your parent even they are kaffir one
5) Feed the poor
6) Take care orphans
7) Never kill people without justified reason
8) Be honest, be justice even to your enemy
9) and so onnow Cuk … I have homework for you … go search internet with keyword : Bani Qoraiza Massacre and tell me is that right or wrong ??
Right, I will do the same thing, fyi, in last Idul Adha event we killed and slaughtered a bule one, the picture available upon request he hehe
tell me also, is it OK if Syeh Puji married your 9 years old daughter ?? Hey … he’s following Hadith … =D
Not OK, there is no Quran or Hadist verses that encourage if a Muslim man marry 9 years old girls will eligible to enter Paradise
tell me also, do you beat your wife often ? it is advised in Hadith, you know
There is no Quran or Hadist that tell if a Husband beat wife is a good deeds
and lastly … I really curious … what do you think will happen to Christian & Jew once Islam rule ?? another holocaust ?? like Armenian did (even though they have already paid Jizya yet still exterminated)
Islam rule already on Saudi, UEA and Malaysia and there is no holocaust yet until today and if we really serious want to exterminate our Chinese brother in 1998 riots, no one will stop us for doing so. Is that clear sir?
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Islam rule already on Saudi, UEA and Malaysia and there is no holocaust yet until today and if we really serious want to exterminate our Chinese brother in 1998 riots, no one will stop us for doing so. Is that clear sir?
Just a few hundred thousand rapes, murders and pillaging hey cuk. Although percentage wise not too shabby in East Timor and Papua. Not sure what percentage you have to reach before its holocaust but must have been close in Tim Tim. Hows the figures for 65 going? That was a high point as well for Islam in Indonesia. Glad to hear you were not serious, just a few school yard hijinks hey.
Chinese in Saudi, etc …tak tak tak
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Never kill people without justified reason
Bet people from tim tim would like to hear the justification
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Fawzia says:
Hi Cuk,
You confused ..again blame your self because for me everything is cristal clear as below:
Much of the things which seem “crystal clear” to you are things I find repulsive.
1) Worship to God only
Why, whats wrong if one worships to three gods as the Christians do? Or to many Gods as Hindus\Taoists\Shintos\Wiccans etc do? I know many fantastic people of these religions, who don’t deserve any Hell, as Allah says:
“Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl” (Q.4: 48).
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )
I don’t see how thinking that God is three or may is deserving of Hell, Muslims can no more prove their Single God than these folks can prove their multiple gods.
2) Do not make sex unless with your wife
Four wives, plus any “right hand possess” ie any sex slaves you’ve captured in war Cuk! 😉 I know people who had consensual sex out of wedlock Cuk, they’re extremely good people, far better than any Muslims who’ve carried off poor innocent women captured in war as “sex slaves.” ie “right hand possessions.” 😉
Respect your parent even they are kaffir one
Really? The Quran tells Muslims not to pray even for near relatives who’re kaffirs, because they’ll burn in Hell.
It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.Quran 009.113
If I love my parents, brothers & sisters, why should I accept a violent & cruel Allah who’ll burn them in Hell eternally for disbelief?
6) Take care orphans
Again, the best way to take care of orphans is to adopt them, treat them as your kids, which Allah stops, because Mohammed lusted for his daughter in law Zainab! 😉
And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favour and thou hast conferred favour: Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed that necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled. Quran 33:37
I know a very sweet Catholic Trinitarian couple in USA, who’ve adopted three orphans from Africa, but they’d never dream of marrying their former spouses, their adopted children’s husbands & wives are like sons & daughters in law for them, & they’d maintain that relationship. Muhammad tarnished this sweet relationship between adoptive father & adopted child, by marrying daughter in law.
7) Never kill people without justified reason
And what exactly is “justified reason’? That people are idolators like in Quran 9:5 so they have to be killed wherever they’re found, unless they accept Islam?
Or that they’re Jews & Christians who don’t like to pay discriminatory jizya taxes?
Innocent people like the Banu Quraiza Jews have been massacred wholesale by your Muhammad, you know. 😉
Yes, sure the Quran has a few universally likeable stuff like feed poor, do not cheat etc, but all religions before Islam have taught such good stuff, Buddha, Jesus, etc all said such things like feed poor & most religious codes outlawed cheating.
Many people in the West, Japan, South Korea etc are non believers, but they also don’t cheat, agnostics like Bill Gates donate loads to the poor, whereas Muslim Indonesia is a very corrupt nation, Muslim Mid East nations too are often corrupt & self centred.
Quran has a few good stuff, but thats nothing which hasn’t been said before, & loads of bad stuff like kill idolators, kill Jews, don’t be friends with Jews & Christians, fight people till they accept Allah or pay jizya, marry daughter in law , beat your wife if she’s disobedient etc-which are extremely bad teachings.
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Hey, Fawzia, great post. I just woke up and it’s already made my day – though I’m reaffirming my traditions by playing Sanata Claus in one hour’s time!
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@Pak vijay yang saya hormati
Once again, I have to ask, when will the Muslim world pull up Saudi Arabia on it’s human rights breaches? Never I guess. Until you do, you have no moral right to say a word about Switzerland (and I actually think Switzerland got it wrong).
The human rights that stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights made by the United Nations as the highest, or sole, model, of a charter of equality, liberty for all human beings, is Western origin, and orientation of this Declaration, And the concept of this human rights is fundamentally secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition,
And muslim country frequently criticize it for its failure to take into account the cultural and religious context of non-Western countries. The “universality” of the assumptions on which it is based is subject to questioning.To Muslims the Qur’an is the source of human rights. as an Islamic response to the Universal Declaration of Human Right, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference adopt the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam to serve as a guidance for its 57 member states in the matters of human rights in as much as they are compatible with the Shariaor Quranic Law..
And it is different with your expectation on human right
@ mbak rima
Also, Islam is as foreign as Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism, these religions were all imported from foreign lands, so it makes no sense to see Indonesian Muslims feeling more worthy or more rightful of the country and the freedom to live and worship than their non Moslem brothers and sisters.
Indonesia is not Saudi, Indonesia based on the principle of bhineka tunggal ika, all religions have equal right to live and worship, including muslim. Indonesian muslim should accept that.
muslim yes….indonesia yes juga, no problem@ mas donny
the good thing is … westerners DARE to admit that they’re wrong and they start to change it … see how many protested about Iraq ?? never heard muslims supports this minaret ban thing
O.k deh mas don, westerners is very good (sometime),
and could you please elaborate where did they ban muslim freedom on the name of Jendral freedom ?
you use to be muslim right mas don? I guess you do not need my explanation which Muslim right stated in the Qur’an has been violated by West. apa dulu islam KTP doang nih? (becanda jangan marah)
I hope islam and the west will find a way to live together in peace (if possible)
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Good Morning, Cuk …
honestly … I believe you’re correct, that your brain is wired differently than us
let me explain once more (teacher to 5 y.o style)you said :
Many thanks for your honesty that Muslim should hate non-believers are just your own invention and it is not teaching written in Quran and Hadist.
I do not blame you because if 10 people read the same book will result 10 different interpretations depend on individual IQ level, personality and experience and knowledge.I asked
how could a supposedly holy book, which should act as guidance towards mankind is sooo confusing, that it may be interpreted in many many many many different ways ? of which cannot be understood easily and need tafseer … and lead to many many misinterpretation ??
you answered
You confused ..again blame your self because for me everything is cristal clear as below:
1) Worship to God only
2) Do not cheat, do not lie, do not make sex unless with your wife
3) Pay your debt
4) Respect your parent even they are kaffir one
5) Feed the poor
6) Take care orphans
7) Never kill people without justified reason
8) Be honest, be justice even to your enemy
9) and so onthis is a proof that your brain do have severe damage … as you continuing to flip flap your own words … I suggest full CT Scan, Cuk … for your own good
Brother Fawzia already explain your “clarity” … or perhaps “subjective clarity” with pure crystal clarity … hahahahaa … I will add up some more to help your childish brain digest the truth … a medicine may be bitter, but it WILL cure you ..
1. Worship to God Only … also known as Al-Ilah (Moon God) … who had several daughters : Allat (war goddess), al Uzza (sacrificial goddess), and Manat (fate goddess), of which Prophet Mohammed acknowlegded himself … but later changed …
Q53: 19 -23… in case you don’t know … this is what Salman Rushdie uncovered … and precisely why Ayatollah found “justified reason” to declare his blood halal2. Do not cheat, do not lie, do not make sex unless with your wife
about sex unless with your wife and “whom your right hand possess” … already explained by brother Fawziado not lie and or cheat … does word Taqqiya ring a bell ?
Hajaj Ibn `Aalat told: ‘O Prophet of Allâh: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you [to fool the non-Muslims]?’ The Prophet excused him and said: ‘Say whatever you have to say.’
Sirah al-Halabiyyah, v3, p61many other example, Cuk … this is just the one …
3. pay your debt (towards fellow muslim only) … but it’s OK to loot and kill infidels (this is only applied to muslims)
many proofs scattered throughout Koran & Hadith about this one … especially killing of innocent, raid & ambush … modern terms is robbery …Bukhari narrates a hadith from Abdullah bin Ka’b who said, “Whenever Allâh’s Apostle wanted to make a Ghazwa, he used to hide his intention by apparently referring to different Ghazwa.” Both ghazwa and sariyyah mean raid, ambush, and sudden attack
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 702:4. Respect your parent even they are kaffir one
now tell me, how can you respect sincerely if deep down you know they’re subhuman and deserves hell ?
and you have to do as your prophet do :This is the grave of my mother; the Lord has permitted me to visit it. And I sought leave to pray for her, but it was not granted. So I called my mother to remembrance, and the tender memory of her overcame me, and I wept.
Tabaqat Ibn Sa’d p. 21
Why would God not allow Muhammad to pray for his mother? What had she done that she did not deserve to be forgiven?5. feed the poor … (applied to muslim poor only) … other may be killed with reason no. 7 by cuk (justified reason : for not being muslim)
If I was a poor one, I rather NOT take alms from people who collect their wealth by plundering, killing, raping and looting … sorry, that’s MY opinion …
like brothermouzone said : two wrongs did not make one right …6. take care orphans … clearly explained by brother Fawzia =D
7. now you may announce to the world that you have found your “justified reason” to kill me … hahahahaaa
tell me your reason, Cuk … I love to hear it …8. be honest, be justice, even to your enemy …
you don’t read the fate of Bani Qoraiza on the hand of your prophet ??It is reported on the authority of Sa’b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allâh (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4321, 4322 and 4323Ibn ‘Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi’ inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allâh (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi’ said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Omar who (himself) was among the raiding troops
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4292About the fate of Bani Qoraiza… who already SURRENDERED
Trenches were dug in the bazaar of Medina and between 600 to 900 men were beheaded and their bodies dumped in them.
Huyai Ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Banu Nadir whose married daughter, Safiya, Muhammad took as his share of the booty when he invaded Khaibar, was among the captives. He was brought to the victor with his hands tied from behind. In an audacious defiance he rejected Muhammad and preferred death to submission to this brute man. He was ordered to kneel and was beheaded on the spot.this is your “idea” of justice ? because I think it is DISGUSTING !!
I will discuss more about beating wife and marrying 9 years old this afternoon
right now … I’ll need some coffee … =Dwish you all the best, Cuk
and thank you again, for introducing me to Dr. Ali Sina
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@Donny
That’s the first time anybody’s ever called me wise, but thanks…
you’re right there … yet your comment shows your tendency and double standard …
When evaluating Saudi’s action, we have to evaluate them from Islamic / Saudi’s perspective.
Sure, except I wasn’t evaluating Saudi’s actions. We were discussing Swiss Muslims, who I am fairly sure are not permitted to behead criminals, kill homosexuals, or stone their wives to death. If I was discussing Saudi, I would have plenty to say about the appalling state of human rights in that country.
Again, your argument seems to veering towards “Muslims have done this and that in that country, so they shouldn’t have the right to complain when somebody wrongs them” as if Islam was one giant nation with one personality and every Muslim was responsible for every act of evil every done by any Muslim.
It’s a religion which, like every religion, has its a mix of fundamentalist tools and good, decent people. The good decent people deserve their rights, regardless of the behavior of the fundamentalists.
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The human rights that stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights made by the United Nations as the highest, or sole, model, of a charter of equality, liberty for all human beings, is Western origin, and orientation of this Declaration
No, it is not Western, that is a nonsense. The basic tenets of human rights come the civilizations of the middle east, not the west, in the centuries before Islam squashed human social development in the region (please see Fawzia’s rather wonderful posts on this). And the UN is not a Western organisation, the general assembly has 181 members, with the third world dominating. Even the Security Council has two Asian permanent members, China and Russia (which is mostly in Asia), and India & Japan must inevitably end up there.
Indonesia, and almost all Islamic states, signed the UN Human Rights covenant. Are you saying they did so corruptly?
Once again, this idea that the West is to blame really gets to me. It’s a dishonest cop-out that plagues Indonesia, an inability to accept responsibility. It’s not the west which has kept Indonesia as a dire, almost failed, state these 64 years, it’s Islamic Indonesians, who have pillaged, murdered and stolen from mostly Islamic Indonesians. The time has come to take some responsibility, to accept and face the fact the enemy of Indonesia is mostly Islamic Indonesians.
To Muslims the Qur’an is the source of human rights.
And if that is the case, as is often said, it’s more reason to feel very deep shame. The Islamic world’s record on human rights, if one assumes that the Qur’an & Cairo Declaration of Human Rights are the guidelines, is appalling and breaches even those suspect guidelines.
The Cairo agreement also includes freedom of religion, so your argument falls flat there, and once again, where are the Islamic voices protesting this failure in Saudi Arabia?
Where is the Islamic condemnation of these, of Iran’s torture, happening this very day, or Iraq’s gassings and torture cells, of the 1965 murders across Java and Bali, of the Sudan? The happenings and atrocities in these places are not guarrenteed or covered in the Cairo document, quite the opposite, but the Islamic world says nothing.
The non-Islamic world (a term you should use instead of the ‘West’) was very loud in protesting all these things, plus the appalling behaviour of the US in Iraq.
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Hi Rima, 🙂
Malaysia does respect minority rights compared to most Muslim majority nations, but its woefully less than the West or even its neighbour Singapore.
Its exceedingly difficult for those born Muslim to quit Islam, & interfaith marriages between Muslims & non Muslims require that the non Muslim convert to Islam.
There are sad cases like those of Lina Joy, who converted to Christianity & hoped to marry her Christian fiancee, but her conversion was not recognized by the Malay Shariah courts.
More pathetic is the case of one Revathi Masoosai, a woman who converted to Hinduism, married a Hindu man & has a toddler daughter, Shariah authorities have separated her from her husband & child, given her child to her Muslim parents & put her in a rehab camp to turn her back to Islam.
Personally I care little if someone wants to convert from Islam to Christianity, Hinduism or another such religion, I find all religions bullshit & a source of conflict & archaic values, but I do think religious freedom of people should be respected.
Muslims can only quit Islam after tremendous harassment of this sort, & of course whether one believes in Islam or not, marrying a Muslim compels a non Muslim to accept Islam. Chinese majority Singapore doesn’t have such discriminatory rules, anyone can marry a person of another or no religion & convert to any religion.
My relatives, living in the West who still remain Muslim & many of our Muslim acquaintances have happily married White Western women & converted many a Western woman to Islam, without encountering any such problems like Malaysia.