827 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”

1. bluemoejoe says:

   June 4, 2012 at 6:15 pm

   Perhaps some visual aids then

   well , coming from you it’s a suprise indeed …. have you read word allright ?? it’s a demonstrans not some poor soul villager get abducted by some teenageer misfits carrying some arms while boasting their dady’s name in the farthest region of indonesia ..

   by the way … last time a check the victims do breath and allright while thourough investigation were held ….. unlike some poor soul in afghans who even their corpses were ….. let’s say ….. not humanely treated 🙂

   the fact they are 40 tonne tanks

   hurray …. finally , oighsie share some of his military wisdom on board.. 🙂

   firstly , leopard 2 A6 weights on approxs 63 tonne depending on kit and add on armor …

   secondly , the last leopard tanks that weights around 40 tonne was your leopard 1 series who either been mothballed or scrapped already , get your facts right first oghz .. before commenting on things you don’t know a shit about it …

   third , have you ever updating on indonesia geography lately ??? you better do oghz … ’cause sure a lot of things changed already beyond your scope … or rather a new lenses to cope the reality

   last … who the fuck are you … lecturing on our defence strategy ??? just for your information we got 5 LPD( 3 built locally ) and 24 LST ( plus 7 on project )on our disposal for the taxi inter island …. if thats not adequate enough , the korean DOKDO LHD was on our doorstep acquisition proposal …. while chinese and italian vying if not butchering each other for the next national missille fregates program after the dutchs get kickeds out of the frogram …. from 2011 upward army’s will always gets the smallest piece of the national defence budget pie …

   but that’s all only about the hardware and stuff modernization , it’s still up to us to implements the tactic and strategy…. remember this !! locals knows the terrain …. not some damn tourist looking for the sightseeing

   why don’t you see this

2. Riki Purnomoz says:

   June 5, 2012 at 5:31 am

   Oigal,

   You are the best military analyst in Humpybong.

   ( Miguel de Cervantes)

3. Oigal says:

   June 6, 2012 at 9:05 am

   Hi Bluey,

   Mmmm.. Quite a rant really, but here are some more visual aids of the brave and honourable

   http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DuEisR8rFLOo

   Be aware it does require adult access.

   last time a check the victims do breath and allright while thourough investigation were held

   That would be an investigation carried out by the Military ya? I guess we could look forward to something like the East Timor Investigations, or perhaps 1998 or perhaps the farcical Munir case. Come on, every with your nationalist blood aboiling you cannot be serious?

   Laugh, Indeed the Leopard one was around 40 tons, sorry been awhile since I played with one. :-). I am impressed with the Google search ability function tho.

   So another 20 tons, will make the tank perform better in the sticky clay of Borneo or the mountains of Sumatra or Papua :-).

   Actually, fairly knowledgeable on the geography and Infrastructure on Indonesia, call it an active tourist if you will.

   Who the F*ck am I??

   Dearie me, do try and be civil 🙂 I am not lecturing on Indonesia’s “defence strategy’ just enjoying the moment. I would not presume to even to begin to grasp the “strategy”

   remember this !! locals knows the terrain …. not some damn tourist looking for the sightseeing

   Indeed, you are correct, as so many of the Jakarta based experts found out in TimTim, Kaltim, Papaua and Aceh.

4. bluemoejoe says:

   June 7, 2012 at 6:29 pm

   sorry oghz…. been out of town for days couldn’t reach the net for a while …

   Come on, every with your nationalist blood aboiling you cannot be serious?

   just because…. i’m a nationalist that doesn’t mean i do condone everything

   yet again … and you still miss my point …. the poor soul was abducted…. he’s not on some demonstration scene . i took your point already but the inquiry been conducted …. last time i check they still the authority in this country and if you still couldn’t accept that go appeal on your embassy or else … hopely they could provide you with the better answer 😀

   So another 20 tons, will make the tank perform better in the sticky clay of Borneo or the mountains of Sumatra or Papua

   well oghz … on that’s 20 tonne plus is lies 1500 HP multifuel diesel , it will torn the concrete in your house with one pass …. as long as a mine dump truck and 4×4 could pass … so could he ( even better )
   ** an average long haul truck ( 40 feet container ) was rated between 280 t0 360 HP

   tell me oghz …. what kind of retards who employ an armored column without proper recon and march without some tofography maps or knowledge before hand ?? … obviously … ozz cavalry were definetely way ahead of us in term of premonitions cases practitioners if they are practice this way of battle annualy 😀

   i presummed you’re atleast had a knowledge about some military stuff but i think it’s a mistakes for hoping too much … as i said before … tank is a simply a tool of war … how to deploy and employ it’s up to operator to implements it that’s why some idiot comes up with the words ” TACTIC & STRATEGY ”

   but surely tactic alone won’t be suffice in the harsh field … that’s when another idiot inventing the new words….. it’s an ARV ( a simple peek at google will ease the pain oghz )
   this dude will come handy during the harsh bogged down and damages it’ll receive during the day …

   oh …. what about the riverine ??? it’s been all over indonesia …. then again another idiot then invented the BRIDGE LAYER … marshs and swamps ?? a propelled pontoon got invented too and so on and it’s called a support system

   see oghz … tools made to ease life …. not to complicates it more …. it’s alll about perspective and preparation

   then again ….. why bother ??? surely , a third year old crappy summary won’t pleased a ” darwin based expert ” 😀

5. Riki Purnomoz says:

   June 7, 2012 at 7:07 pm

   Wooden tanks are much lighter.

6. Oigal says:

   June 7, 2012 at 9:03 pm

   Thanks for the lesson in grammar and spelling Blue. Indeed why bother 🙂

7. bluemoejoe says:

   June 7, 2012 at 10:14 pm

   Thanks for the lesson in grammar and spelling Blue. Indeed why bother

   oh sure …. it’s always a pleasure to share too…. for the sake of “darwin based expert” though 😀

8. bluemoejoe says:

   June 8, 2012 at 6:32 pm

   Wooden tanks are much lighter.

   well that’s a certainty riki ….. but if i’m a cav’s craw …. i would prefer a desertion rather than betting my ass to ride over a ” wooden tank ” when sabot rounds were fired in anger …

   TO BALANCE THING’s UP ….. it’s an idiot’s term for a DETERRENCE ( again!! ) 🙂

   but , apparently some people do had a lot of wild fantasies that i’m lacking 😀

9. Oigal says:

   June 8, 2012 at 8:26 pm

   Perhaps 2 or 3 hundred tanks would be better, never know when them pesky demonstrators might start acting up and expecting to get treated like humans and citizens again.

10. bluemoejoe says:

    June 8, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    see…. guess someone do watch too
    many action movies already …. 😀

    seems our friends here has forgot that in indonesia today( yes… today!!). it was a police who tend the civil disturbances

    it’s been a decade novelty?? why couldn’t you stop to reminiscing old novelties…. ???

11. Arie Brand says:

    June 11, 2012 at 7:11 am

    Bluemoejoe, whose main argument against critics of the Indonesian tank procurement plan seems to be that they are not indonesian and therefore cannot understand what he, as pribumi, claims to have a privileged understanding of, should perhaps listen to Indonesian critics.

    One of those is the lecturer in defence studies Yohanes Sulaiman who wrote in the Indonesia based journal Strategic Review:

    Defenders of the Leopard tank procurement would have a much stronger case to make to both parliament and the public had they managed to show where the tanks would fit within Indonesia’s grand strategy, and the short and long-term military goals to meet the demands outlined in this grand strategy.
    The fact that Indonesia does not have a grand strategy means there is simply no good argument to justify the purchase of any type of hardware it may want.

    Common sense has not been lacking in the Indonesian parliament either:

    “These tanks that weigh 60 tonnes are not suited for Indonesia’s terrain, 70 percent of which is sea,” said Susaningtyas Kertapati of the People’s Conscience Party (Hanura), who added that many of the roads were in too poor a shape to accommodate the weight of the tanks.

    The suspicion lingers that, on the one hand, the army wants to acquire these heavy beasts because neighboring countries have them but that, on the other, there is also the thought in the background that they will come in handy to intimidate rebellious crowds who might threaten the status quo in which the army is still a privileged stake holder.

    Bluemoejoe’s argument that the police has taken over the task of dealing with civil unrest is meretricious. There is no doubt in my mind that when it really comes to the crunch the army will step in to protect the powers that be and the status quo.

    Also, perhaps Bluemoejoe can answer the question what happens when the “civil disturbance “ is caused by the army itself. Where was the police when an army unit went on a rampage in the Papua town of Wamena, as happened last week?

    Soldiers accused of Papua rampage
    June 8, 2012

    INDONESIAN soldiers have been accused of going on a rampage in the troubled province of West Papua early yesterday, killing at least eight people and burning down about 100 houses.
    But an Indonesian military spokesman denied the clash took place and accused separatists in the remote town of Wamena of burning down their own shops

    .
    Read more:

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/soldiers-accused-of-papua-rampage-20120607-1zyyc.html

    Incidentally, the title of this thread is becoming more and more irrelevant. I suggest renaming it “military crimes”.

12. Oigal says:

    June 11, 2012 at 8:04 am

    Unfortunately, traveling around a bit with very dubious connections (Internet not people although…) so limited in the kind of response bluey’s meticulous posts deserve.

    The logic of procuring tanks for bogs down in its own silliness and face before reality. However, as an aside I have always found it curious that even the very well off are remarkedly ‘untraveled’ in their own country.

    Ask the majority of ‘well off’ Indonesians if they have been to Papua, Aceh, Sumatera, Kalimantan almost invariably the answer is ‘Belum’ (not yet). Ask if they have been to Singapore, Australia etc, etc answer is ‘Sering’ (many times). The logic that the tanks are to be purchased on a grand plan of innate local knowledge and requirement is obviously spurious at even the most cursory glance.

    Of course, that does not absolve a number of near neighbours from accusations of stupid, continually providing ships and equipment to Indonesia without question or conditions.

13. madrotter says:

    June 11, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    I don’t see why they would want tanks when they’ve got real weapons of mass-destruction here, angkots….

14. bluemoejoe says:

    June 11, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    well arie … i’m not gonna argue about his remarks about the lacks of a comprehensive grands strategy in our defence policy which even in their white book a lot of things do still ambigouss ( at best ) and contradictory ( oh yes even so called MEF mantras are still too hasty ) . but that doesn’t negate the necessity about modernization wether it’s about hardware or paradigma …..but i do still appreciates them for trying to changes the ” inward looking defense ” mentality . they start to making a “consensus” that it is time to implement ” the outward looking defense policy ” slowly distancing away from politics while keeping the tighter control on average grunts ..

    yes … yes the pace was slow as snails ….but , the changes do progressing indeed … as we speaks today … the less man are allocated to kodim/korem while new combat battalions and combat doctrins and tactics ( not the territorial ” patched ” infantry ones ) keep formed and practised within zero growth policy and tight operational budget( they’re trying going professsional )

    the problem is with the budget based program ( which is definetely not enough ) yet the folks do still demands the subsidies over infrastructure ( economy and defense ) …. we still had a thousand light years ahead of us before realizations 😀

    These tanks that weigh 60 tonnes are not suited for Indonesia’s terrain, 70 percent of which is sea

    and what would happen when the enemy do breach our defenses ??? go against the invader with ” bamboe runtjing ” while riding those saladin APC vintage and chanting merdeka with loaded bomb vast ??? well dude , i can still define the big line between courage and lunacy …

    marks my words … it’s only a matter of times before we are clashing head to head and toe to toe with the chinese and with the looks of our armed forces now …. well i say our future do look grims

    like i said before … from the 2011 onward it is the army who always get the smallest pie

    when it really comes to the crunch the army will step in to protect the powers that be and the status quo.

    last time i check …. in the bastion of democracy , governor of states can declare the martial law and calls up the national guards militia to uphold the ” order ” and supress te ” insurrections ”

    everybody has their owns version of order …. and it’s all tailored accordingly ….

    is caused by the army itself.

    they had their own control system ( remember the PS *medan batallion ?? ) but wether the local and central government deemed it was necessary or not … it’s out of my hands

    Incidentally, the title of this thread is becoming more and more irrelevant. I suggest renaming it “military crimes”.

    well …. i flow with the waves allright …

    Of course, that does not absolve a number of near neighbours from accusations of stupid, continually providing ships and equipment to Indonesia without question or conditions.

    well …. oghz , in politics….the don’t see things…. logically

    or let’s say ….. they don’t see things so brightfully as you do 😀

    I don’t see why they would want tanks when they’ve got real weapons of mass-destruction here, angkots

    well dude … compared to the mighty metromini and kopaja ….. they look peanuts to me… 😀

15. madrotter says:

    June 11, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    here in bandung they are DEADLY homey

16. bluemoejoe says:

    June 11, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    here in bandung they are DEADLY homey

    meh ….. aint gonna beat those bogor’s angkot along with their most ” mannered ” terminals crews

    and then again …. obviously you haven’t meet the famous ” RUDI ” and ” Batur salembur ” in their quest along lebak routes

    or else …. ride the bikes all night along pantura roads ( serioussly … it’s not for the fainthearted recommendation)

17. Oigal says:

    June 11, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    Well we agree on one thing Bluey, sooner or later all nations in the region are going to have to deal with Chinese ambitions in some fashion or another as Vietnam, Philipines are already finding out. Let’s be real, a 100 tanks (actually far less than that, 100 tanks will barely allow you to maintain two active squadrons) stuck on the half dozen toll roads in lower Java ain’t a deterrent just a money pit.

    One would think that with the rampant plundering already of Indonesia’s fisheries and forests, it would be blindingly obvious where money should be spent. Of course, we do have the issue that the so called protectors are in fact the villains.

    Been looking for some actual results from these exhaustive investigations you mentioned blue, have not got any links have you as it seems nothing ever happens.

    Ari, loved it… “the seperatists burnt their own houses down”. Comedy Gold!

18. bluemoejoe says:

    June 11, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    MEF program mandates to the army until 2024 for having 346 MBT and 1650 AFV as support. ( some rumoured the korean IFV K21 will fill the rank )… i don’t know how and when it will fulfilled, but it’s mandated on the 2011 white book and i haven’t read the newest one but i thinks it won’t out of frame of it….

    the way i see it…. they planning to attach 1 or 2 heavy armored brigade in each major island as a fast reactioner heavy strike package on fresh occupied beaches /ports/cities before more concrete reinforcement
    were brought inlands ( one must bear in minds on how much limitations an amfhibious assaults could be employed ) .. that’s why emphasize on acquisitions was put on mobile SPH ( french’s cesar ) and MLRS ( between HIMARS or ASTROS ) whatever was fit enough on those C 130 for quick deployment…. ( yea…. yea, everybody was sucked on leopard hype this was not deemed politicaly saled on tv )

    by the same program it’s mandated to navy for 12 unit 40 fast misille boats and 6 unit of 60 m FMB for tackling the the piracy and ploundering while 4 frigate for the strikes force… ( the irony is all of those fast boat are armed with chinese C 705 licensed locally ) all up to 2014 alone.

    as i said before oghz….. law inplementations was based on political ones. so instead waiting for the eternity on the investivigation results….. why don’t you ask those local politician and civil authoracy why they stood so silence in plight of their own voters? ?

    oh silly me…. with the all corruptions and manipulation money on their pockets the last things they need is a central gov attentions and inpections that comes along with it.

    honestly… it’s an evil vicious cycle downthere and until the new regime and policy changes do come things still grims in the long run…

19. agan says:

    June 12, 2012 at 9:04 am

    Moejoe u sound like one badass military buff, have u ever considered enlisting in the Australian military?
    rumor has it they are boosting their rank and file with foreign soldiers (including Southeast Asians) as incentive they r offering cash bonuses of almost 2 milyar IDR (that’s a lot of moolla) and Australian citizenship fast-tracked after only a few months of service!

20. stevo says:

    June 12, 2012 at 9:47 am

    for tackling the the piracy and ploundering

    The Indonesian authorities may want to tackle their own plundering, as a first step. A detailed look at the purchase of those tanks would be a good starting point. The only use I can see for them is to keep the locals under-the-thumb.

21. bluemoejoe says:

    June 12, 2012 at 9:58 am

    naah… just because i’m know some litle stuffs and kind of grows around it. that doesn’t mean i’m in for the stricts lifestyle kang … and i despise the wannabes too… so that’s why i never joints the airsofter community kang . i’m only care for the technology and civil aplication / implication of it.

    it’s simply because… like most of the indonesian…. we are simply a hardcore nationalist to the bone…. to the point some us got do got schemed and cleverly misguided without even aware it.

    an ozz SAS….. hmm, Foreign legion will still preferred over though 😀

22. bluemoejoe says:

    June 12, 2012 at 10:03 am

    dear stev… care to read the last page before commenting? ?…

    it was written in bad english though 😀

23. stevo says:

    June 12, 2012 at 10:19 am

    It’s Ok BJ I understood your meaning. My little post was not really directed at you. I was just making a general comment.

24. Arie Brand says:

    June 12, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    when it really comes to the crunch the army will step in to protect the powers that be and the status quo.

    l

    last time i check …. in the bastion of democracy , governor of states can declare the martial law and calls up the national guards militia to uphold the ” order ” and supress te ” insurrections ”

    Do you believe that the TNI when its vital interests are at stake will wait for an order from the civil authorities before it steps in ? Do you believe that to be likely in Papua?

25. bluemoejoe says:

    June 12, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    care to elaborate on what kind of vital interest we are trying to discuss in here? ? ’cause i’m kind lost with what are trying to say….. is it a private ones or else? ?

26. Arie Brand says:

    June 12, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    I would have thought this to be pretty clear to someone who follows army affairs with interest. It is well known that only part of the TNI’s income is provided by the government. The greater part comes from private, often illegal dealings – the illegal logging in Papua is a case in point. Any popular revolt against this state of affairs would be ruthlessly suppressed by the army without it waiting for authorisation by civil authorities, such as they are there.

27. bluemoejoe says:

    June 12, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    laugh….. well, talking about goldmines…:D
    what are we… a FARC nation?? talking about watching too many action movies..

    could you provide us with a solid proof arie? ? a plain solid proofs not just some narative stories on blog or sites… by some heard it from some. we had enough with all of those…. and surely tthose things couldn’t be brought to the courts

    believe me…. if you do then you definetely will be made as a supremme auditor in cilangkap ( regardless the nationality )

    well i’m not gonna denied that some turds do misallocated and even abusing his power behind his corps name….. but never for once those graft and illegal money goes to the corps ( is he looking for a military career suicides?? criminals couldn’t be a dumbs dude )… it is all goes to that person copper alone wether he is some pangdam or kapolda/kapolres regardless the excuse….
    and the saddest thing is… while the average clueless joe do the bidding…. they get only a pack samsyu a day along with a bad rep plus new hates from the folks for each new villa their commander will get when the “project” went smooth.

    while the less things get to happeyn in more developed region ( some region had the police filling the void though ) obviously thing still do go rampant in papua albeit it’s happen in the more ” secrecy ” mode

    serioussly dude…. what’s you smoking on….. you better to sends me some

28. Oigal says:

    June 12, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Lol..346 Battle Battle tanks…Well the Jakarta to Bandung toll road should be safe for a day or two then. A heavy armoured brigade in Borneo..more comedy gold! You are flat out driving a Bemo between Balikpapan and Samarinda without road collapse and the rest of the island is mud, coal and what used to forest before uniform thugs plundered the timber.

    Seriously, have you considered a stand up routine, this is classic stuff.

29. bluemoejoe says:

    June 12, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    well oghz…. have you ever thinking what the weight of those bulldozer and heavy tractor used for ploundering and open up those coal mines ?? or else have you ever been working for the roads construction before? obviously none

    let me put it simple you…as long as those coal mines dumps truck and those toyota 4×4 could pass through… so would she…

    those military beast was especially made for the harsesh terrain you could never even considered to walks trough during those “sight seeing” times.

    go peek some leopard youtube oghzz….trust me….it’s worthed

30. Arie Brand says:

    June 13, 2012 at 5:05 am

    could you provide us with a solid proof arie? ? a plain solid proofs not just some narative stories on blog or sites… by some heard it from some. we had enough with all of those…. and surely tthose things couldn’t be brought to the courts

    What do you mean by “solid proof”? Signed confessions by the main perpetrators? You must be joking. Look, virtually everyone who had followed events in East Timor knew about the mayhem the Indonesian military was causing there but I heard here the Indonesian ambassador at the time say on Australian television that “he didn’t believe that Indonesian soldiers would do such things”. It was Sabam Siagian, who, will you believe it, was himself an ex-journalist (and later became one again). I don’t think he was lying. He simply didn’t believe what he didn’t want to believe in spite of the fact that by that time (it must have been in the early nineties) one could fill a stout volume with reports about the matter.

    There are those things that everyone with half a brain knows except those that are blinded by nationalism. “Everyone knows” who was behind the murder of Munir. Is there “solid proof”? No.

    That the military in Papua has something to hide is clear from the fact that foreign journalists are not allowed in and even Indonesian journalists are subject to restrictions there. If you want the testimony of Papuans (which you don’t of course) look at the Papuaweb..